US Airways Dividend Miles - US Airways Awarded New China Route

US Airways Awarded New China Route
Tuesday September 25, 11:33 am ET
Airline plans to begin its first-ever non-stop service to Beijing from its Philadelphia hub in 2009

TEMPE, Ariz., Sept. 25 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) today announced it has awarded US Airways (NYSE: LCC - News) a new route between its Philadelphia hub and the Chinese capital city of Beijing. The daily service to China will begin in 2009 with wide-body Airbus A340 aircraft configured to seat 269 (42 Envoy and 227 economy). The flight will originate at the airline's hub in Charlotte, N.C.

US Airways Chairman and CEO Doug Parker stated, "We are extremely honored by the Department's decision to award US Airways with this service, and I want to personally thank Secretary Peters and others on her staff who worked diligently to review our application. The Department conducted a fair and thorough process and because of that work, today, US Airways has been presented with an historic opportunity for our airline's employees and our customers."

Continues Parker, "We are also most appreciative of the support demonstrated by many federal, state and local elected officials and business leaders. Specifically, from Pennsylvania, Gov. Edward G. Rendell and U.S. Senators Arlen Specter and Robert P. Casey, Jr. and Philadelphia Mayor John F. Street; from North Carolina, Senators Elizabeth Dole and Richard Burr as well as Gov. Michael F. Easley and Charlotte Mayor Patrick McCrory; from Delaware, Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr., Sen. Thomas R. Carper, U.S. Rep. Michael N. Castle and Gov. Ruth Ann Minner.

Press Release (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070925/latu105.html?.v=101)

Already being discussed in the "flights to china" thread, but seeing as this is breaking news I suggest we continue it here.

So, I'll repeat ...

<<shudder>>

US Airways really has an opportunity here that I hope it doesn't squander. Trans-Pac flights are new for US.

If they really invest in this route, and do everything possible to assure a consistently clean plane, on time performance, well stocked provisions, and courteous service -- then they can actually attempt to gain a reputation (shocking I know) for GOOD service.

As much as I really really want to judge and say "oh it's going to be terrible just like the TA operation" I'm hoping they'll really put some time and effort into making it right. They sure do have enough lead time.

I like :D Helps that I'm 15 min from PHL.

I just hope US gets their act together so the appeal of the trip to EWR diminishes.

This is probably the funniest thing I have heard thus far today. I wonder if WN is getting one next??? Does PHL really need China service in the first place? One would think that this route could have been better allocated to one of the major hub cities.

At least they're investing in a 340, as I was assuming that they would do this as a 12 hopper in a 321.:rolleyes:

Does Dougie have a drinking buddy at the DOT?

I sure wish I knew what they were on when they made this decision... I'd buy some for my boss and VP..... :confused:

Will US be around in 2009?

Does PHL really need China service in the first place?

The UA response concerning US bid was that a Beech 1900 would be too big.:D

UA's Filing (http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf102/479037_web.pdf) on page 88.

Already being discussed in the "flights to china" thread, but seeing as this is breaking news I suggest we continue it here.

So, I'll repeat ...

<<shudder>>

US Airways really has an opportunity here that I hope it doesn't squander. Trans-Pac flights are new for US.



Well, yes and no. For old US Airways, yes. For "new" US Airways, which is just America West with new lipstick, no. Remember the old 747s which flew to Nagoya???

You'd think someone would have checked their facts for the release:

Philadelphia is the second largest city on the East Coast and the fifth in the nation, with a metropolitan area of almost six million people. Before the DOT award, it is also the second largest U.S. metro area without nonstop service to China.


Not true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

This made HUGE news here in the PHX area when the city passed by Philly (including cover stories in the paper, headlines on the news, etc).

You'd think someone would have checked their facts for the release:

Philadelphia is the second largest city on the East Coast and the fifth in the nation, with a metropolitan area of almost six million people. Before the DOT award, it is also the second largest U.S. metro area without nonstop service to China.


Not true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

This made HUGE news here in the PHX area when the city passed by Philly (including cover stories in the paper, headlines on the news, etc).

Philly has the 5th largest metro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas) population to be fair. Not that I'm a fair person.:D

That list is totally worthless! Cities that are spread out and have a lot more people that live just outside the "metro" area still use the airport. Worthless!

You'd think someone would have checked their facts for the release:

Philadelphia is the second largest city on the East Coast and the fifth in the nation, with a metropolitan area of almost six million people. Before the DOT award, it is also the second largest U.S. metro area without nonstop service to China.


Not true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

This made HUGE news here in the PHX area when the city passed by Philly (including cover stories in the paper, headlines on the news, etc).

Within 2 hours of Philly you have Baltimore, Washington, Wilmington, New York City, Newark, all of New Jersey, and most of Central PA including Harrisburg and Allentown.

Within 2 hours of Phoenix you have, well, um, Tempe.

Yes, the city of Phoenix has more people that the city of Philadelphia. The Philly metro area is leagues larger in population that the Phoenix metro area.

Within 2 hours of Philly you have Baltimore, Washington, New York City, Newark, all of New Jersey, and most of Central PA including Harrisburg and Allentown.

Within 2 hours of Phoenix you have, well, um, Tempe.

Yah, and you already have service out of New York and Washington.

Yah, and you already have service out of New York and Washington.

Yup.

So, just looking at the Philly metropolitan area (not even the entire region as I did in my previous post) it's still greater than the Phoenix metropolitan area.

There are also a good amount of people for whom the difference in distance between PHL and EWR or PHL and IAD is marginal. These are locations where US has a chance (not only with fares but service) to really win people over.

A great example in the New Brunswick - Princeton area of Central New Jersey. It's about equidistant to both EWR and PHL and contains the corporate headquarters for massive companies such as Ernst & Young, Johnson and Johnson, Merrill Lynch, Bristol-Myers Squibb and about 50 other pharmaceuticals.

Another example, though not as good as the central NJ, would be Central PA and the Harrisburg regions. Lots of companies and a pretty equal drive to either PHL or EWR.

These "gray" areas are key to making this route work.

Will US be around in 2009?

Will A340s be around in 2009? Kidding, but I thought they were going the way of the dinosaur in general. Or does US need that extra-long range one?

While I live in Tempe and agree that it's the only place worth mentioning within 2 hours of Phoenix -- in the interest of accuracy Tucson with a city population of over 500 K and a metro population relatively close to a million( and no that would never include Tempe by mutual consent even if it is within 2 hours) is nothing to sneeze at( unless there's a dust storm a-brewin'). And no, their airport doesn't really count if you're comparing it to EWR, BWI or otheres relatively close to PHL.

This is probably the funniest thing I have heard thus far today. I wonder if WN is getting one next??? Does PHL really need China service in the first place? One would think that this route could have been better allocated to one of the major hub cities.

At least they're investing in a 340, as I was assuming that they would do this as a 12 hopper in a 321.:rolleyes:

They wanted to do in a A319 with 3 or 4 stops depending on direction, (if they can get a 80% load) but there was no where to land for refueling after they left Alaska. They can do it in one stop if they convert a couple of their A330's to ETOPS and add some fuel tanks. They have 1 1/2 years to figure it out. Using the gas hog high maintenance A340 (according to the French the best airplane in the world after the A380) should put the flight in a negative margin role. There should be pleanty of used A340's around in the time frame as several airlines are dumping them in favor of 777-200ER or LR and 300-ER. They will need to discount the route to get the load. China is expanding but not enough to go from the current 7 flights per day to 13 + what ever the China carriers add. It is still much cheaper to take a one stop through ICN or NRT and they will discount to keep the One Stop business.

Maybe US is looking for the PHX (home office) -PHL - PVG business.

Within 2 hours of Philly you have Baltimore, Washington, Wilmington, New York City, Newark, all of New Jersey, and most of Central PA including Harrisburg and Allentown.

Within 2 hours of Phoenix you have, well, um, Tempe.

Yes, the city of Phoenix has more people that the city of Philadelphia. The Philly metro area is leagues larger in population that the Phoenix metro area.

Sure, but remember, too, that PHX is the big dog in its yard, with no competition for hundreds of miles. PHL has lots of competition and therefore passengers have lots of alternatives.

Oh Lord. *Who* in their right mind would EVER fly US to China?.... :eek:

Yup.


These "gray" areas are key to making this route work.

Agreed. I have colleagues that live in Delaware who often fly to India. They say that they use PHL for all domestic flights, some Europe, etc. But when they want to fly to India and different Asian destinations they drive to EWR. Now, you would have to assume those people that use PHL normally, but EWR for flights to places like China will now be using PHL. Definitely these gray areas where they can pull from people that would use EWR are keys to this route.

One of the claims from other airlines against US's application was that the PHL-Beijing demand was about 19 people a day. That was based off of historical ticket purchases. But US showed that the DOT awarded them a Rome flight and said when they gave US the Rome flight that the PHL-Rome market was larger than stated based on evidence that when US added PHL-CDG, that the size of the PHL-CDG market grew 300% or something like that in the 1st year.....because of those in the gray area that now used PHL.

They wanted to do in a A319 with 3 or 4 stops depending on direction, (if they can get a 80% load) but there was no where to land for refueling after they left Alaska. They can do it in one stop if they convert a couple of their A330's to ETOPS and add some fuel tanks. They have 1 1/2 years to figure it out.

The A330s are ETOPS....

if i can earn miles and use my CP vouchers, i'd damn well fly US to China.

if i can earn miles and use my CP vouchers, i'd damn well fly US to China.

On that note, I'm curious to see what the upgrade options will be on this flight. They'll probably create another layer above GoEnvoy, like GoEnvoyPacific or something and make it like a $750 upgrade instead of $500.

We'll probably only be able to use our CP certs on full fare tickets. Based on their DOT filings, they are expecting a ton of premium class revenue from this flight - I think they'll do everything in their power to hold back seats for purchase. I can't blame them.

Maybe this announcement will reinvigorate PHL's bid for a summer olympics........hehehe. In all seriousness, if US can fly this route successfully, it'll be a big boost to PHL.

I can't seem to remember if US is planning on using the A340 or an A350XWB on this route....i want to say the a350xwb won't be ready nearly in time.

...use my CP vouchers, i'd damn well fly US to China.

So you are not going to fly US?:D

Does this mean I can hope for my non-stop HVN-HKG flight in early 2010 on a slightly used A340-500 with Maple Leaf logos still on the bathroom door and US logos painted on the the tail? :D

Yes, PVG gets heavy traffic, but why not go for heavy business cities like NRT and HKG? Am I wrong or just hopeful?






(I never go to PVG, but I go to HKG so I can pray for more options)

Because equallly lucrative on the PEK or PVG routes is not what is in the seats, but is what is in the cargo hold. Those A340s, 777s, and 747s get filled with cargo.

And cargo doesn't complain about their seat recline being inoperative.

I know that an actual flight hasn't been scheduled yet, but in the spirit of other airlines' forums here on FT...who's gonna be on the inaugural flight?

So if I want to go from SFO to China, I'll have to travel across the US to Philly?

Guess that's one way to get about 4000 extra miles....

Well, theoretically we should be able to book seats on this flight starting April 29 next year.

So I've got a while to decide. I'm definitely up for it though.

On that note, I'm curious to see what the upgrade options will be on this flight. They'll probably create another layer above GoEnvoy, like GoEnvoyPacific or something and make it like a $750 upgrade instead of $500.

We'll probably only be able to use our CP certs on full fare tickets. Based on their DOT filings, they are expecting a ton of premium class revenue from this flight - I think they'll do everything in their power to hold back seats for purchase. I can't blame them.


Would the acronym for GoEnvoyPacific be GyP?

Within 2 hours of Philly you have Baltimore, Washington, Wilmington, New York City, Newark, all of New Jersey, and most of Central PA including Harrisburg and Allentown.



Don't forget Wilkes-Barre and Scranton in Northeastern PA. :)

It must be the 2 AC A340-500s. If I recall, those are the ultra-long range aircraft and there's not many of them around. Has anyone been inside of those aircraft? Perhaps they would leave them as is?

The UA response concerning US bid was that a Beech 1900 would be too big.:D

UA's Filing (http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf102/479037_web.pdf) on page 88.On page 93, United says there is one-stop service from ILG to China. Really? If I recall correctly, there's no commercial service there anymore. Delta has pulled out.

Within 2 hours of Philly you have Baltimore, Washington, Wilmington, New York City, Newark, all of New Jersey, and most of Central PA including Harrisburg and Allentown...

Washington is not within 2 hours of PHL, not by car, anyway.

Washington is not within 2 hours of PHL, not by car, anyway.You are right. I've done the drive in 2.5 hours, with no traffic.

The whole discussion on who's bigger is moot. PHX and it's metro will never be as big as the PHL metro. Period. Just because the city limits have more people is completely irrelevant in this case. Similar metrics are used in determining media market size, of which PHL is #4 behind NY, LA and Chicago.

From Washington up to New York City, there will now be 4 choices to Beijing:
1.) IAD-PEK on UA (currently served)
2.) PHL-PEK on US
3.) EWR-PEK on CO (currently served)
4.) JFK-PEK on CA (currently served)

Let's not forget that HKG is also served from EWR(CO) and JFK(CX) giving the NY/PHL region more options to get to that part of China (and beyond) if needed.

Can the NE corridor support any more service? Maybe. But adding service from PHL is a good way to fill that gap between DC and NY, considering the total population between those 3 regions (20M+ people).

As for the aircraft, there are a few likely possibilities for sourcing the aircraft.

Air Canada had some A340-500s (http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/a340-500.html) that were going to be leased/sold to a Brazilian airline. But something seems to have happened in that deal because the planes were just re-listed for lease on 9/1. In other words, they're available again. These aircraft are in a 42J/225Y config. All seats have AVOD, and the J seats are angled lie-flat, similar to the ones the 767's are getting.

Another possibility is that the A330-200 deliveries set to begin in 2009 could be converted, in part, to an A340 variant.

There were also some Asian airlines apparently looking to dump their A340's in favor of 777's or 787's, too.

Which option is cheapest will probably be the route Tempe takes.

Washington is not within 2 hours of PHL, not by car, anyway.

About 100 minutes via Acela.

It must be the 2 AC A340-500s. If I recall, those are the ultra-long range aircraft and there's not many of them around. Has anyone been inside of those aircraft? Perhaps they would leave them as is?

This is why the route will be a loser. They're acquiring two aircraft to fly a single route. So, they're going to need different pilots, different crews, different stores and maintenance procedures. Orphan fleets often are not productive or profitable fleets.

The reason why other carriers succeed is that they have a large pool of place to use. UA has 30+ 744s and an equal number of 772s. They have an infrastructure to support those fleets.

2 planes....Ugh...Just wait until both break down.

At least with 4 engines, they won't have to worry about ETOPS...

According to this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=730416&page=2), TAM is leasing the AC 345s. AC will be getting rid of a lot of 343s though. US could get the 345s if they pay AC more than what TAM is paying.

This is why the route will be a loser. They're acquiring two aircraft to fly a single route. So, they're going to need different pilots, different crews,

Isn't that part of the Airbus flight deck commonality claim, or is that just hot air?

Wirelessly posted (probably driving while typing: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 6.12))

sign me up for the innaugural flight. hopefully its a nicer experience than az travels the world had on the hawaii flights. at worst, it will be an easy way to burn off my remaining us miles. I wonder how long before the price for award tickets to china gets an 'improvement' in the wrong direction?

Another example, though not as good as the central NJ, would be Central PA and the Harrisburg regions. Lots of companies and a pretty equal drive to either PHL or EWR.

These "gray" areas are key to making this route work.

Nobody in Central PA goes to PHL. If they don't go from MDT, they go to BWI or IAD or EWR. But not PHL, because the parking is a pain, the traffic is a pain, and, well, it's PHL.

Or, I lived there for a good 20+ years, and I know the only time I got near PHL was after the -8 hop from MDT.

Nobody with a choice in the "grey" areas is going to choose PHL.

sign me up for the innaugural flight.


I was fortunate enough to be on the inaugural flight of US's A330 years ago. Even more fortunate to be the first passenger to claim seat 3C in Envoy Class! The old US (east) did a nice job of making that a very special flight (PHL-CDG) with special announcements, a wonderful senior crew and -- at least for those of us in Envoy -- lead crystal boxes with the USAirways logo and emblem etched onto the top.

That said, you can count me out of the PHL-China flights. The thought of being on a USAirways flight for that long (under the current penny pinching regime) is enough to make me suicidal.

Nobody in Central PA goes to PHL.

I had the extreme misfortune of living in MDT for about 3 years some time ago and cannot recall anyone driving to PHL from that area for any flight. Scads of folks (i.e. most) had no issues driving to BWI ... and that was before the Southwest hub had set up.

I do recall, however, plenty of my contacts who lived in the Allentown area catching flights out of PHL instead of flying out of ABE.

For my part, I always flew out of simple little MDT which was always acceptable. Remember that MDT had considerable mainline traffic back then, so it was quite different.

Nobody in Central PA goes to PHL. If they don't go from MDT, they go to BWI or IAD or EWR. But not PHL, because the parking is a pain, the traffic is a pain, and, well, it's PHL.

Or, I lived there for a good 20+ years, and I know the only time I got near PHL was after the -8 hop from MDT.

Nobody with a choice in the "grey" areas is going to choose PHL.

Thanks for the clarification - I take that back about Central PA.

I can personally attest to the accuracy of central NJ as "gray" area. I've been working on and off in Princeton for about 3 years now. PHL and EWR are both options for people who live/work there and they most often (surprise) choose based on price.

About 100 minutes via Acela.

To the airport? I thought it required a 50 minute SEPTA train ride to get to PHL airport from the PHL/30th Street Station train station.

Cab. Or take a cab from wilmington.

Isn't that part of the Airbus flight deck commonality claim, or is that just hot air?

Well, there probably is some commonality, but not 100%. Remember, the commonality schtick was directed more at the A320 family (A320, A319, and A321) which all have the same engines and cockpit.

The A330 has two engines - PW4168s - while the A340 has 4 CFM56s (very similar to those on the smaller Airbii jets). So there are differences, probably enough to require significant results of training....

BoeingBoy?? White courtesy phone, please.

To the airport? I thought it required a 50 minute SEPTA train ride to get to PHL airport from the PHL/30th Street Station train station.

27 minutes from Terminal A to 30th st station (departs 13min and 43min after the hour).
Easy access from the terminal no shuttle bus required.
This is actually one of the things about PHL that works exceptionally well.

http://www.septa.com/service/sched/r1_wk.html

Well, there probably is some commonality, but not 100%. Remember, the commonality schtick was directed more at the A320 family (A320, A319, and A321) which all have the same engines and cockpit.

The A330 has two engines - PW4168s - while the A340 has 4 CFM56s (very similar to those on the smaller Airbii jets). So there are differences, probably enough to require significant results of training....


IIRC the A340-200 and 300 have the CFM56s and the A340-500/600 have Rolls Royce RB211 Trents of some variety.

So if I want to go from SFO to China, I'll have to travel across the US to Philly?

Guess that's one way to get about 4000 extra miles....
Or fly UA maybe? :rolleyes:

IIRC the A340-200 and 300 have the CFM56s and the A340-500/600 have Rolls Royce RB211 Trents of some variety.

TRENT553-61

IIRC the A340-200 and 300 have the CFM56s and the A340-500/600 have Rolls Royce RB211 Trents of some variety.

TRENT553-61s

BTW, Gymboree High-5 Club...Love that, and oh how I can relate.

Well, there probably is some commonality, but not 100%.
Correct - some commonality but not enough to be a common type rating. I understand it's an abbreviated course for those who fly the 330, between what's called "initial training" (the full training course that lasts about a month with classroom and simulator) and "differences training" (a few days of training for those like the West pilots who have flown the 757 but not the 767 (which have a common type rating). I suspect that the question will be whether they'll offer one "full initial" course for everyone or separate "initial" and "differences" classes depending on whether a pilot has flown the 330 or not. Given the small number of pilots that'll need training (20-30 plus instructor pilots), it might be that putting everyone through "initial" would work best if any of them hadn't flown the 330.

Jim

Washington is not within 2 hours of PHL, not by car, anyway.

With apologies to the Maryland State Police, I've done PHL to the outskirts of DC proper in about 2 hours. You just have to be lucky... :cool:

And for all of the PHX vs PHL comparisons/infighting, can we please stop comparing a city of 516+ square miles that continues to expand and gobble up neighboring communities in order to grow to a city of 6.24 square miles that hasn't increased in land mass in the past several decades?

Well, with apologies to the Maryland State Police, I've done PHL to the outskirts of DC proper in about 2 hours. You just have to be lucky... :cool:

DC proper doesn't have outskirts.

While I have no doubt that in the middle of the night, with no cops and no traffic DC to PHL in 2 hours is doable, that still doesn't make it correct to state that DC is within 2 hours of PHL. Most people I know in Silver Spring use 3 hours as a rule of thumb.

27 minutes from Terminal A to 30th st station (departs 13min and 43min after the hour).
Easy access from the terminal no shuttle bus required.
This is actually one of the things about PHL that works exceptionally well.

http://www.septa.com/service/sched/r1_wk.html

So that makes 100 minutes on the Acela plus 27 on SEPTA, which is close, but still over 2 hours even if the trains are timed perfectly for a quick transfer.

I find this decision most amazing. I'd really like to know who would shell out big $$ to fly whatever version of Envoy on US to China vs. the other carriers who currently service this route in the NYC/NJ market??

Could you imagine flying Y on this route on US? It's bad enough they reduced the Y seat pitch on 330's across the atlantic as I could attest to this summer. I could only imagine how painful it would be going to China.

I'd like to see Dougweiser fly the inagural flight to China in coach. :D

DC proper doesn't have outskirts.

While I have no doubt that in the middle of the night, with no cops and no traffic DC to PHL in 2 hours is doable, that still doesn't make it correct to state that DC is within 2 hours of PHL. Most people I know in Silver Spring use 3 hours as a rule of thumb.

OK, you got me. It was the middle of the night with no traffic and few/no cops, but it truly was 2 hours to a point on the Balt-Wash Parkway/295 where I entered DC proper properly... :D

Cab. Or take a cab from wilmington.

According to Google maps Wilmington is a 30 minute cab ride to PHL, but you have a winner (barely) in taking a cab from the 30th street station -- 19 minutes (http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=PHL+-+Philadelphia+Intl+Airport,+Philadelphia,+PA&geocode=&dirflg=&saddr=30th+street+station,+philadelphia,+pa&f=d&hl=en&sll=39.882277,-75.241799&sspn=0.007558,0.01987&ie=UTF8&z=12&om=1) -- for a total of 1 hour 59 minutes!

I find this decision most amazing. I'd really like to know who would shell out big $$ to fly whatever version of Envoy on US to China vs. the other carriers who currently service this route in the NYC/NJ market??

Could you imagine flying Y on this route on US? It's bad enough they reduced the Y seat pitch on 330's across the atlantic as I could attest to this summer. I could only imagine how painful it would be going to China.

I'd like to see Dougweiser fly the inagural flight to China in coach. :D

Well, it's going to take a lot of amazingly good trip reports to get me on these flights. And I go to PEK 2-3 times a year, and it'd be very very nice to have non-stop service - the problem is it'd just be non-stop "service" under current on board service standards.

For now, I'll continue to fly UA, LH, NH, etc. UA being awarded SFO-CAN is useful for southern China domestic connections as well.

Oh Lord. *Who* in their right mind would EVER fly US to China?.... :eek:

Only if the alternative is having a root canal.

Well, it's going to take a lot of amazingly good trip reports to get me on these flights. And I go to PEK 2-3 times a year, and it'd be very very nice to have non-stop service - the problem is it'd just be non-stop "service" under current on board service standards.

For now, I'll continue to fly UA, LH, NH, etc. UA being awarded SFO-CAN is useful for southern China domestic connections as well.

Yes, UA is already awarded for SFO-CAN but, see the original thread today from UA boards. Here it is:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739754

Thanks! :)

According to this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=730416&page=2), TAM is leasing the AC 345s. AC will be getting rid of a lot of 343s though. US could get the 345s if they pay AC more than what TAM is paying.

they might not need to - this route doesnt start for nearly 18 months and JJ have 77W on order - perhaps the first will be delivered by then freeing up the temporary A345s - I have the impression that JJ only ever considered them an interim solution

Yes, UA is already awarded for SFO-CAN but, see the original thread today from UA boards. Here it is:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739754

Thanks! :)

That flight will be a winner. There is a LOT of manufacturing in Guangzhou and over in both Shenzhen and Jiangmen. Flying to Hong Kong is not efficient, and connecting can be done through Beijing (assume Air China didnt cancel your flight).

Agreed.... comparing MSA or City Size when you look at the sprawl that is PHX makes you wonder. I'd actually have to go through the efforts of doing it, but I'd have to imagine that the PHL MSA is larger than the PHX MSA....

With apologies to the Maryland State Police, I've done PHL to the outskirts of DC proper in about 2 hours. You just have to be lucky... :cool:

And for all of the PHX vs PHL comparisons/infighting, can we please stop comparing a city of 516+ square miles that continues to expand and gobble up neighboring communities in order to grow to a city of 6.24 square miles that hasn't increased in land mass in the past several decades?

Yes, UA is already awarded for SFO-CAN but, see the original thread today from UA boards. Here it is:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739754

Thanks! :)

The different tenor of that thread and this one is very funny.

Only if the alternative is having a root canal.

I had root canal a few weeks ago (seriously... I did, local anesthesia only) and it was more pleasant than some flights I've been on :p

Is US going to regret winning this route? It is also possible that it could be taken away from them before it starts.

Demand will be thin, regardless of the PHL metro area size. More than half of China passengers originate from the West Coast states, most of whom cannot reasonably connect through PHL. They will need a dedicated subfleet of A340s, which they do not have yet. Given US' reputation, few passengers are going to go out of their way to fly US to China and there are now or will be several options on the East Coast and from ORD.

If there is another SARS epidemic US may end up suspending the flight.

I have not seen a mention (or complaint) in this thread about the lack of First Class on this flight. I mean, I would NEVER fly paid Envoy to China (or anywhere else in Asia) when I could get a much better product from the Asian Carriers be it in their business or first class cabins.

Is US actually going to fly this w/ 2 class service only?

Is US actually going to fly this w/ 2 class service only?
That's what they said in the application - 42 Envoy and 227 coach seats.

Jim

That's what they said in the application - 42 Envoy and 227 coach seats.

Jim

uggg...

Today's memo at work said the Beijing route would be served from CLT. Is this correct? If so, why is everyone talking about PHL?

Today's memo at work said the Beijing route would be served from CLT. Is this correct? If so, why is everyone talking about PHL?

One stop, change of gauge from CLT.

This is one person who would not prefer US over UA in E+. I can not imagine the pitch that US will design...... Oh well...

This is one person who would not prefer US over UA in E+. I can not imagine the pitch that US will design...... Oh well...

I'm with you , when it comes to an A319/320/321/333 flight. All I want is in-seat power and I'm happy as hell. I'd rather be able to power my laptop and work or watch a movie than have the extra leg room.

Is US going to regret winning this route? It is also possible that it could be taken away from them before it starts.

Demand will be thin, regardless of the PHL metro area size. More than half of China passengers originate from the West Coast states, most of whom cannot reasonably connect through PHL. They will need a dedicated subfleet of A340s, which they do not have yet. Given US' reputation, few passengers are going to go out of their way to fly US to China and there are now or will be several options on the East Coast and from ORD.

If there is another SARS epidemic US may end up suspending the flight.

For any airline but US (or any management but Tempe), a China slot is usually really hard to screw up. The business demand sells a ton of revenue business class seats and the cargo is worth a fortune. I'll bet coach is almost gravy on these flights.

With that said, if there is a way, Tempe has the will to fubar the thing operationally.

One stop in PHL, arriving from CLT. If I am departing in PHL, when I board the plane, I hope there's going to be enough overhead space. I don't want to gate check my bag. I don't ever check baggage - especially on US. What happens on the return trip? One stop in PHL. Do ALL pax have to deplane, go through customs and immigration, and those going to CLT get back on again? Or do they just stay seated while PHL pax deplane? Reason I ask about the return flight. It doesn't make financial sense to send an A340 back to CLT with a low pax load. There's plenty of hub-to-hub traffic.

My understanding is that it's a plane change (to a 767 I believe) for the PHL-CLT leg.

You always clear customs and immigration and reclear security at your first entry into the US, regardless of where the plane's going next or if you're booked on the same flight number for the next leg.

This is one person who would not prefer US over UA in E+. I can not imagine the pitch that US will design...... Oh well...

I'm with you , when it comes to an A319/320/321/333 flight. All I want is in-seat power and I'm happy as hell. I'd rather be able to power my laptop and work or watch a movie than have the extra leg room.


How are you with LAX1K to AmWest when he said he preferred E+ and you said you didn't care about extra leg room?:confused:

One stop in PHL, arriving from CLT. If I am departing in PHL, when I board the plane, I hope there's going to be enough overhead space.


These type of flights are missleading. Even if the A340 DID originate in CLT, there is always a security check and all customers would have to take their bags and leave the a/c. Even the f/a's can't get on until the check is done.

These one stops to international destinations are almost always in flight number only and are on different a/c type, so you shouldn't have to worry about your bags.

I just wish the company would send ghost riders on the Asian carriers to see what really works. I'm afraid they will cheapen that route as well.

I haven't read this entire thread...just skimmed. But something jumps out at me. In the past, we would have all been jumping up and down for something like this. Isn't it amazing how mgmt has been able to f things up so badly that news about flights to awesome European cities and now China are met more with disdain than even mild enthusiasm? I suspect they are doing it for the business seats, cargo and so that a family of four can go see the Great Wall for $399 pp / each way with their knees held firmly in place against their chests by the seat in front of them...and the pax will likely be given brooms and dustpans to help clean the plane mid flight.

I suspect they are doing it for the business seats, cargo and so that a family of four can go see the Great Wall for $399 pp / each way with their knees held firmly in place against their chests by the seat in front of them...and the pax will likely be given brooms and dustpans to help clean the plane mid flight.

$399 o/w! great price to China, I'd be all over that!

My worry about the new route(s) is US is gobbling up new routes to do only one thing - improve the stock prices. The new management hasn't proven they can handle their domestic market and existing European routes - so why do they continue to expand?

The pressures of capitalism force some companies to innovate with their expansion - while causing others to collapse.

I haven't read this entire thread...just skimmed. But something jumps out at me. In the past, we would have all been jumping up and down for something like this. Isn't it amazing how mgmt has been able to f things up so badly that news about flights to awesome European cities and now China are met more with disdain than even mild enthusiasm? I suspect they are doing it for the business seats, cargo and so that a family of four can go see the Great Wall for $399 pp / each way with their knees held firmly in place against their chests by the seat in front of them...and the pax will likely be given brooms and dustpans to help clean the plane mid flight.

They're definately doing it for the C class seats. United is selling their IAD-PEK seats for $13,000. That's C class, not F class.

Well, I'll say it: Great News and Congratulations to US. Non Stop is always much better than connecting in San Fran or ORD.

My questions would be:

Flat Sleeper Seats in Envoy?
Total Flight Time?
Daily Service Each Way possible with only 2 planes?

Flat Sleeper Seats in Envoy?
The application says the same seats as the 330 and 757


About 14 hours, I think

[quote]Daily Service Each Way possible with only 2 planes?
As long as one doesn't break......

Jim

They're definately doing it for the C class seats. United is selling their IAD-PEK seats for $13,000. That's C class, not F class.

If US expects to sell their Envoy tickets for $13K/pop - and I'm sure there are many companies who will pay those fares for such a long flight - they had better invest some of that profit into regular cleaning and maintenance of the aircraft.

The application says the same seats as the 330 and 757

[quoteTotal Flight Time?
About 14 hours, I think


As long as one doesn't break......

Jim[/QUOTE]

But if it is the AC 340 would they remove the flat seats?

Daily Service Each Way possible with only 2 planes?

By my loose math, I think they could get away with ~1.6 planes (yes, we need to round up to the nearest whole number), assuming ~40 hours over and back. The problem is, the second one of those 2 planes breaks down, they'll be hosed... so they might want to consider keeping a spare on hand, or better yet, using their --yet to be aquired-- 340s on a few more routes to improve utilization. Otherwise, 330s with a stop in ANC wouldn't be the end of the world.

Otherwise, 330s with a stop in ANC wouldn't be the end of the world.

It would be to someone who paid a couple of thousand dollars for a business class seat on a NONSTOP. I'd be pissed, and would have the credit card company dispute it. Then I'd send them a copy of the docket US filed with the DOT claiming they could operate the damn route as evidence.

It's irresponsible to try this with less than 3 aircraft that can make the trip.

It would be to someone who paid a couple of thousand dollars for a business class seat on a NONSTOP.

I have to suspect that, by the time the 330 day mark roles around, they'll have a plan in place. If it's not nonstop, all but the most clueless pax will understand this much.

Furthermore, if they opt for the nonstop option --which they've pretty much promised-- and don't make a play for a third airplane, I predict the market will put them in their place in no time.

It would be to someone who paid a couple of thousand dollars for a business class seat on a NONSTOP. I'd be pissed, and would have the credit card company dispute it. Then I'd send them a copy of the docket US filed with the DOT claiming they could operate the damn route as evidence.

It's irresponsible to try this with less than 3 aircraft that can make the trip.

I agree; here's the DOT requirement that the flights be nonstop:


4. We tentatively select US Airways, Inc. to engage in scheduled foreign air transportation of persons, property, and mail, on a nonstop basis only, between Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the one hand, and Beijing, People’s Republic of China, on the other hand, effective March 25, 2009;

5. We tentatively allocate US Airways, Inc. seven weekly frequencies to perform its proposed 2009 operations;

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf103/487893_web.pdf (page 20 of .pdf)

I think a routine stop in ANC would be a very big deal.

I wasn't aware that USAir executives even knew that the continent existed. They must have found a map of Asia somewhere. :)

So they need a few planes? How about buying the old Howard Hughes plane the Spruce Goose, it's just hanging out in LA I belive (I hear it's state of the are). Then they can position a fuel boat out at sea and just land on water and fill up. That way since they don't have to refuel on land it could still be a non-stop right?:p

Another example, though not as good as the central NJ, would be Central PA and the Harrisburg regions. Lots of companies and a pretty equal drive to either PHL or EWR.

These "gray" areas are key to making this route work.

Easier to get to Baltimore/BWI than PHL anyday from Harrisburg since 76 is such a traffic clogged disaster.

$399 o/w! great price to China, I'd be all over that!

My worry about the new route(s) is US is gobbling up new routes to do only one thing - improve the stock prices. The new management hasn't proven they can handle their domestic market and existing European routes - so why do they continue to expand?

The pressures of capitalism force some companies to innovate with their expansion - while causing others to collapse.

Well, this flight is about 2 years from taking off.

Hopefully (and that's a big hopefully) they will have their act together.

Then again, just because they have the rights doesn't mean they must exercise them. Stupid for them not to, but they don't have to.

According to AP USAirways is asking for an one year delay to start this route:

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-63/1211484563277970.xml&storylist=penn

Other airlines will probably ask DOT for the frequencies.

According to AP USAirways is asking for an one year delay to start this route:

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-63/1211484563277970.xml&storylist=penn

Other airlines will probably ask DOT for the frequencies.

I'd bet this has to do with the economies of the A340 at $130 oil being REALLY scary. If it was a pig at $75 oil... oooooh boy.

Other airlines will probably ask DOT for the frequencies.

Maybe, but MaxJet, the OA that competed for this award is now spoken of in the past tense. Considering the fuel cost and the anemic revenue potential, not delaying would be cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Maybe, but MaxJet, the OA that competed for this award is now spoken of in the past tense. Considering the fuel cost and the anemic revenue potential, not delaying would be cutting off the nose to spite the face.These 7 weekly frequencies can be used by either new entrants or incumbent carriers, with DOT favoring a new entrant in the route case last year. US also competed against DL, UA, CO, and NW. US won largely on their new entrant status.

The question is what DOT would do if another airline now proposes to start service in 2009 when the frequencies become available. DOT does not like to let frequencies sit unused if another airline proposes using them. I'd say chances are very good that another airline will propose using them in 2009.

Just some real quick rounding from the top of my head and US would have to charge $500 each way just to cover fuel. Even though International flying is more profitable on long flights where you can only do one a day it gets real hard to recoup that much more revenue. AT this fule level we might not be seeing as much Int. growth as everyone thinks.

According to AP USAirways is asking for an one year delay to start this route:

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-63/1211484563277970.xml&storylist=penn

Other airlines will probably ask DOT for the frequencies.

FWIW, UA requested (and was granted) a 1 year delay in launching SFO-CAN

FWIW, UA requested (and was granted) a 1 year delay in launching SFO-CAN

there was no competing bid for those frequencies, however. they were allocated from a pool designated exclusively for service to "secondary" China destinations (ie not PVG or PEK).

FWIW, UA requested (and was granted) a 1 year delay in launching SFO-CANYes, but the CAN frequencies were uncontested. UA was the only carrier to apply for them, and no one filed an objection to UA's request to delay by a year.

there was no competing bid for those frequencies, however. they were allocated from a pool designated exclusively for service to "secondary" China destinations (ie not PVG or PEK).The "secondary" China destinations are any destinations except PEK/PVG/CAN. The CAN frequencies are specifically for CAN only, not part of the "secondary" pool.

These 7 weekly frequencies can be used by either new entrants or incumbent carriers, with DOT favoring a new entrant in the route case last year. US also competed against DL, UA, CO, and NW. US won largely on their new entrant status.

The question is what DOT would do if another airline now proposes to start service in 2009 when the frequencies become available. DOT does not like to let frequencies sit unused if another airline proposes using them. I'd say chances are very good that another airline will propose using them in 2009.

Are you suggesting other airlines applying to fly PHL-PEK or just any US-PEK/PVG routes in 2009? I am not sure if the frequencies originally granted to US are specifically for PHL-PEK, but if that's the case, unless other carriers are proposing to fly PHL-PEK (unlikely), I think US should be safe with its request for delaying service. However, if the frequencies go back into the pool and allow anyone willing to start any US-PEK/PVG routes in 2009, then US will likely lose those frequencies.

LAX

Are you suggesting other airlines applying to fly PHL-PEK or just any US-PEK/PVG routes in 2009? I am not sure if the frequencies originally granted to US are specifically for PHL-PEK, but if that's the case, unless other carriers are proposing to fly PHL-PEK (unlikely), I think US should be safe with its request for delaying service. However, if the frequencies go back into the pool and allow anyone willing to start any US-PEK/PVG routes in 2009, then US will likely lose those frequencies.

LAXThe frequencies were granted by DOT to US specifically for PHL-PEK. But if other airlines now propose using the frequencies for other routes to PEK/PVG starting in 2009 DOT may strip US of the frequencies and award them to another carrier. There's no requirement for DOT to award them to a carrier proposing PHL-PEK. Whether DOT strips the frequencies depends on how much weight DOT gives to US being a new entrant vs. having the frequencies go unused for a year. The award to US came with the condition that they start service on March 25, 2009, which is the first day the frequencies are available under the bilateral.

Deleted

fly747first, management's primary responsibility is to their owners.

According to AP USAirways is asking for an one year delay to start this route:

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-63/1211484563277970.xml&storylist=penn

Other airlines will probably ask DOT for the frequencies.

I feel like showing up at DP's office and singing him a special "TOLD YOU, TOLD YOU, TOLD YOU SO, TOLD YOU SO, TOLD YOU, TOLD YOU, TOLD YOU SO, TOLD YOU SO" song... You are the worst thing that has happened to the airline industry since 9/11. I guess it's not enough that you have the nerve to charge more than your competitors for what is now by far the weakest domestic First Class within the US. You didn't think you could buy an Airbus 340 for pennies, did you?

My worry about the new route(s) is US is gobbling up new routes to do only one thing - improve the stock prices.

Isn't "improve stock prices" the one thing that management is supposed to do?

It will be interesting to see what happens to the route if US merges with UA. When UA eliminates the PHL hub, would they move to a second daily flight from IAD-PEK? Add something like IAD-PVG? Could they change the cities in this way?

Isn't "improve stock prices" the one thing that management is supposed to do?

It will be interesting to see what happens to the route if US merges with UA. When UA eliminates the PHL hub, would they move to a second daily flight from IAD-PEK? Add something like IAD-PVG? Could they change the cities in this way?

No, they can only fly the cities as awarded, or go back for permission to change which would not be automatic.

I would hope that another incumbent carrier petitions the DOT for these frequencies. One would think that the benefits to consumers from another flight to China in March, 2009 would outweigh the benefits from a new entrant that wants a one-year delay.

Isn't "improve stock prices" the one thing that management is supposed to do?

Another thing they're not very good at. Downgraded this a.m. and down 18% for the day as of 230pm EST.

... and before you say "every airline is sucking wind" - yes, that's very true. But they're leading the pack today.

The frequencies were granted by DOT to US specifically for PHL-PEK. But if other airlines now propose using the frequencies for other routes to PEK/PVG starting in 2009 DOT may strip US of the frequencies and award them to another carrier. There's no requirement for DOT to award them to a carrier proposing PHL-PEK. Whether DOT strips the frequencies depends on how much weight DOT gives to US being a new entrant vs. having the frequencies go unused for a year. The award to US came with the condition that they start service on March 25, 2009, which is the first day the frequencies are available under the bilateral.AS/UA/AA/CO/US/NW/DL have jointly applied to DOT for a 2 year blanket dormancy waiver for all international routes. If this is granted then US will be able to hold on to the frequencies through the waiver period without worrying about another airline applying for them.

fly747first, management's primary responsibility is to their owners.

Isn't "improve stock prices" the one thing that management is supposed to do?

Ironically enough, Tempe has not been particularly spectacular at either.

I'd suggest that you ask a 10 year (not 10 day) shareholder of every airline in the US, and see who is happiest. Part of why LUV does better than anyone else over the long term is because they understand how to create value over the long term.

Now, let's apply that to China thing: if it's as important (as they said in their application) to people as they say, making it work over the long term should be a no-brainer. They don't think that far ahead, which is part of the problem.

I would hope that another incumbent carrier petitions the DOT for these frequencies. One would think that the benefits to consumers from another flight to China in March, 2009 would outweigh the benefits from a new entrant that wants a one-year delay.

Not likely. NW, DL and AA have all submitted Dockets to the DOT requesting that US's request be approved (by default) by merging it into the "global" Dormancy Waiver Request. Further DL has also requested that their ATL-PKG flight be downgraded to 5/week during the Off Season, while referencing both UA's and US's filings for relief.

Not likely. NW, DL and AA have all submitted Dockets to the DOT requesting that US's request be approved (by default) by merging it into the "global" Dormancy Waiver Request. Further DL has also requested that their ATL-PKG flight be downgraded to 5/week during the Off Season, while referencing both UA's and US's filings for relief.

Agreed. That's the conclusion I reached yesterday when I read post #116 above. ;)

I would hope that another incumbent carrier petitions the DOT for these frequencies. One would think that the benefits to consumers from another flight to China in March, 2009 would outweigh the benefits from a new entrant that wants a one-year delay.

If the joint dormancy petition is granted, any airline would be free to "temporarily" step in and make use of any dormant frequencies they think they could profitably use.

I would hope that another incumbent carrier petitions the DOT for these frequencies. One would think that the benefits to consumers from another flight to China in March, 2009 would outweigh the benefits from a new entrant that wants a one-year delay.

I don't.

I think this route is important for the city of Philadelphia, and also believe that the other domestic carriers -- and their hubs -- have plenty of service to China. I'm tired of our region being targeted for bullying by other cities (and other carriers) through these sorts of games.

Right now, the entire industry is struggling, and kicking US -- and the city of Philadelphia -- is inappropriate.

LA, Chicago, New York, Atlanta and other cities will have plenty of service to China. Demanding that more be shifted from Philadelphia -- which has none -- is pure greed on the part of the other cities and carriers.

I'd suggest that you ask a 10 year (not 10 day) shareholder of every airline in the US, and see who is happiest. Part of why LUV does better than anyone else over the long term is because they understand how to create value over the long term.

Yes, and their business model simply wouldn't work to sustain the bulk of the air transport needs in America. Their "short-segment domestic service to third-tier airports" model is hugely profitable -- when combined with fuel hedges -- but doesn't meet crucial needs of a country central to the global economy.

Southwest would have a difficult to impossible mission in serving major hubs in New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Atlanta, etc. with the service those cities need to major business centers within the country. And I cannot imagine a Southwest international carrier with flights to Europe, Asia, and South America would be very successful either.

Comparing SW to other carriers is thus an exercise in silliness. Some other carrier has to fill in the full-service, high-frequency, high-cost routes as well as the long-haul and transcontinental flying.

LA, Chicago, New York, Atlanta and other cities will have plenty of service to China. Demanding that more be shifted from Philadelphia -- which has none -- is pure greed on the part of the other cities and carriers.

As you have noted, PHL does not have China service (and is unlikely to have it in 2009 if US maintains its position). Therefore, the idea of "shifting service from PHL" is -- for lack of a better word -- fantasy.

Personally, I'd like to see more West Coast frequencies (SEA, and to a lesser extent, PDX and SJC, make lots of sense). Your post is timely because I just attempted a rare PHL connection today... and ultimately ended up on Amtrak.

Taking Philadelphia's frequency IS shifting service, and shutting out the second largest city on the east coast from ANY China service.

Taking Philadelphia's frequency IS shifting service, and shutting out the second largest city on the east coast from ANY China service.

I was thinking more along the lines of "taking it until US is ready to use it", but with some points added (subtracted) for good (bad) performance.

My gut feeling is that this year's market outlook is very different than last year's ... supply has overtaken demand. As long as this situation persists, I can't imagine that cities like ATL and PHL will be able to field competitive service (especially when relying on 340s).

I've always wondered how many executives in Beijing and Philadelphia are really inconvenienced by a layover in or drive to LAX/JFK/IAD/EWR/ATL/SFO/ORD/DTW (and more I probably can't think of) on their way to/from Philadelphia.

Granted, in the FAA filings US painted it (and I absolutely don't blame them) as if there's a massive Chinese community and a HUGE population of high powered executives that are DIRELY inconvenienced and cannot sleep at night due to having to drive to EWR or IAD or take a connection in order to get to PEK.

I'm not saying this population doesn't exist - I'm sure there are executives in PEK and PHL who are eagerly awaiting this convenience - but really, honestly, are there that many? For most flyers trips to PEK and PHL are rare enough that a connection or drive probably doesn't cause heart palpitations.

Just my $0.02 ... If someone has contrary information I'd love to hear it.

Thai Air wants to sell long haul a/c, US needs 'em for PHL-PEK. Sounds like a marriage ready to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=51082878.blog

I don't.

I think this route is important for the city of Philadelphia, and also believe that the other domestic carriers -- and their hubs -- have plenty of service to China. I'm tired of our region being targeted for bullying by other cities (and other carriers) through these sorts of games.

Right now, the entire industry is struggling, and kicking US -- and the city of Philadelphia -- is inappropriate.

LA, Chicago, New York, Atlanta and other cities will have plenty of service to China. Demanding that more be shifted from Philadelphia -- which has none -- is pure greed on the part of the other cities and carriers.

If service from PHL to China is as important and viable as you claim, then US should initiate service next March as the award required. That, or apply for seven new frequencies next year for service beginning March, 2010, when new frequencies become available.

In the 2008-09 frequency allocations, the DOT stressed that the rights to fly nonstop from the USA to China were very valuable rights, not just for the airline recipients but also to the American public. Yet your view and US' view is that US should be allowed to sit on the rights until mid-2010 instead of ceding rights it can't and won't fly in March 2009.

And the option in the joint filing of allowing others to fly using those frequencies from March, 2009 until perhaps June, 2010 are illusory. No airline will spend the startup expenses for a new route to China with frequencies that likely expire (by reverting to US) in just over a year.

Thai Air wants to sell long haul a/c, US needs 'em for PHL-PEK. Sounds like a marriage ready to happen.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=51082878.blog

Except the high fuel consumption of the A340-500 would make it very difficult to compete on price with other airlines one-stop service.

From the article in the link:

"Despite the young age of the planes, (Thai Air President Apinan Sumanaseni) said it would be difficult to sell the long-haul aircraft as record oil prices are resulting in many airlines shifting to more profitable short- to medium-haul routes," the Journal writes.

What underlies this is that the A340-500 is a gas hog.

.....I'm not saying this population doesn't exist - I'm sure there are executives in PEK and PHL who are eagerly awaiting this convenience - but really, honestly, are there that many? For most flyers trips to PEK and PHL are rare enough that a connection or drive probably doesn't cause heart palpitations.

Just my $0.02 ... If someone has contrary information I'd love to hear it.

ATL has (far) LESS China O&D than the Philadelphia MSA. So if your premise is valid, Delta's services to China are also not necessary. I think one also needs to consider the existing connectivity from the relatively large US network into PHL, the Cargo potential - particularly Eastbound and the "possibly" large number of existing central NJ/Maryland - China passengers who may consider PHL geographically (and possibly Fare wise) more convenient than EWR, JFK or IAD. The other point to not dismiss is that US has stated to Analysts that their expectation/plan is to loose $ on this route for at least the first 3 years and that it is intended as a "foot in the door" to Asia.

China passengers who may consider PHL geographically (and possibly Fare wise) more convenient than EWR, JFK or IAD.

What convenience would any consider between EWR and PHL? Overall, it would be small.

Has the DOT granted or denied yet on it's extension? Or is this still pending?

What I don't understand is why does not US simply price the flights so that they would make some profits? One would think everybody is in pretty much the same boat in regards to fuel costs so if it takes $X to fly to China charge $X + X%.

What I don't understand is why does not US simply price the flights so that they would make some profits? One would think everybody is in pretty much the same boat in regards to fuel costs so if it takes $X to fly to China charge $X + X%.

Probably because of the price elasticity of demand for airline flights in general and even flights to China, in particular. The amount people are willing to pay to fly thousands of miles is not affected by the costs of providing the flight. So if an airline demands more money than the passengers are willing to pay, then fewer people buy tickets. Requiring even higher fares to make up for the lost passengers. Which causes even fewer people to buy tickets. And so on.

From the depths of my old geezer memory, I think we covered this many moons ago in economics class.

Taking Philadelphia's frequency IS shifting service, and shutting out the second largest city on the east coast from ANY China service.

actually, it's the third largest city on the east coast, behind new york and washington. and with its close proximity to both IAD and JFK, PHL isn't really a pressing need to have china service.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

actually, it's the third largest city on the east coast, behind new york and washington. and with its close proximity to both IAD and JFK, PHL isn't really a pressing need to have china service.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdfIt was said 2nd largest city, not 2nd largest metro area. The 2nd largest city on the east coast is Philadelphia. There is a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Though, I do agree, the metro area is more relevant in this arguement with O/D traffic into an airport than just the city.

ATL has (far) LESS China O&D than the Philadelphia MSA. So if your premise is valid, Delta's services to China are also not necessary.

Indeed, in the previous round DOT made a special point of snickering at the single-digit O&D demand ATL-China.

It was said 2nd largest city, not 2nd largest metro area. The 2nd largest city on the east coast is Philadelphia. There is a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Though, I do agree, the metro area is more relevant in this arguement with O/D traffic into an airport than just the city.

Additionally, lumping Washington and Baltimore into the same "metro area" is almost as silly as lumping Philadelphia and New York into the same metro area. They're distinct urban cities, each has its own major airport, and each has its own economic footprint.

What convenience would any consider between EWR and PHL? Overall, it would be small.

I love it when people not from New York or Philadelphia make this argument.

The time difference between a commute from Center City to PHL or EWR is...

PHL -- 15 minutes
EWR -- two to five HOURS, depending on traffic on the NJTP

In the time that you're spending on the NJTP getting to EWR, you could be 1/4 of the way to China on US Airways.

It was said 2nd largest city, not 2nd largest metro area. The 2nd largest city on the east coast is Philadelphia. There is a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Though, I do agree, the metro area is more relevant in this arguement with O/D traffic into an airport than just the city.

Philadelphia is also the second largest metro area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas

Philadelphia is also the second largest metro area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas

True, but change the list to the Combined Statistical Areas instead of Metropolitan Areas (CSAs include more surrounding area), and PHL falls to fourth place, behind NYC, BOS and BWI. And BOS and BWI are both significantly larger CSAs than PHL.

All depends on what list one uses.

I love it when people not from New York or Philadelphia make this argument.

The time difference between a commute from Center City to PHL or EWR is...

PHL -- 15 minutes
EWR -- two to five HOURS, depending on traffic on the NJTP


What does traffic on the NJTP have to do with whether or not someone connects through PHL or EWR.

You must be under the premise that the PHL service was going to be 100% O/D or even 50%. US estimated only 42,000 of the 150,000 passengers would be local in the first year.

In the time that you're spending on the NJTP getting to EWR, you could be 1/4 of the way to China on US Airways.

Doubtful, probably stuck in PHL waiting on the imaginary plane that would never arrive.

Has the DOT granted or denied yet on it's extension? Or is this still pending?

AS/UA/AA/CO/US/NW/DL have jointly applied to DOT for a 2 year blanket dormancy waiver for all international routes. If this is granted then US will be able to hold on to the frequencies through the waiver period without worrying about another airline applying for them.The blanket dormancy waiver was denied today by DOT. But they granted US's request to delay PHL-PEK to March 25, 2010. No airlines opposed the request.