American Express Membership Rewards - MR to AA Miles?

I've searched and I can't find a recent posting on this topic. Does anyone have an update as to the most economical way to move MR points to AA miles?

60,000 Membership Rewards
20,000 Starpoints
25,000 AAdvantage

Discussion from early September, found using keyword "aadvantage"...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=731835

.... keyword "aadvantage"...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=731835

That's one I missed...AAdvantage...

Thanks.

Just received an offer of two for one on MR points to SPG.

Just received an offer of two for one on MR points to SPG.

Is this a targeted offer or for everyone ??? Can you post the text of the e-mail?

It was a mailing;

To take advantage of this exciting offer and transfer points, please visit:

membershiprewards.com/hoteloffer or call 1800-297-3276

I've been waiting for this moment for 2 years. :):):):)


rstidolph, you need to PM me an address I can send you some gift certificates for free burgers. You just made my year. ^^^^^

*When you transfer points, use the points calculator tool on the next page to see how many Membership Rewards points are needed for your transfer. Your calculation will not include the additional 50% hotel bonus points you can earn from this special offer. Membership Rewards Room Finder will not immediately display 50% hotel bonus points in your linked Frequent Guest point summary.

Terms & Conditions: Offer is non-transferable and valid for addressee only. Membership Rewards point transfer requests that occur between 9/1/07 and 11/30/07 will be eligible for the 50% bonus point offer. To be eligible to receive bonus points, account must be active and not in default at the time of the bonus fulfillment. To redeem offer, you must transfer Membership Rewards points into your linked Gold Crown Club, Hilton HHonors, Priority Club Rewards, or Starwood Preferred Guest® frequent guest account between 9/1/07 and 11/30/07. Minimum transfer of 1,000 Membership Rewards points. Bonus points will be posted to your frequent guest account within 10–13 weeks after the transfer. Offer is not combinable with any other offer and is valid for U.S. Membership Rewards enrollees only. Membership Rewards points are not refundable once transferred. All Membership Rewards program rules apply. For full Terms & Conditions of the Membership Rewards program, visit membershiprewards.com/terms or call 1-800-AXP-EARN (297-3276). Offer is subject to the Terms & Conditions of Gold Crown Club International program, Hilton HHonors, Priority Club Rewards program and Starwood Preferred Guest program, which can be found at www.goldcrownclub.com, www.hiltonhhonors.com/terms, www.priorityclub.com/terms, and www.SPG.com.

*When you transfer points, use the points calculator tool on the next page to see how many Membership Rewards points are needed for your transfer. Your calculation will not include the additional 50% hotel bonus points you can earn from this special offer. Membership Rewards Room Finder will not immediately display 50% hotel bonus points in your linked Frequent Guest point summary.

Terms & Conditions: Offer is non-transferable and valid for addressee only.

Hrmm. Guess I'm calling AMEX to confirm I'm eligible. I'd hate to transfer everything over and then find out I didn't get 2:1. :mad:

Has any one done a transfer to Hilton yet? I'm wondering how long the bonus points will take to post.

The terms and conditions say that the bonus points will be posted within 10–13 weeks after the transfer.

The Delta promotion had somewhat similar language but the bonus posted right away so just wondering :).

Thanks!

Piyush

Therefore, 40k MR=25K AA,

It's relatively a lot better. I'm not excited though. Doesn't sound that good.

Pizzaman

Hope it works for you. I think I'll wait till NOvember for a transfer.

I called Amex and they said I had to have recieved the offer to be eligable for the bonus points. I don't know if they can police it though. I hope I get them soon

I don't know if they can police it though.

Two years ago I would have said they could not, but throughout 2007 it has been evident that American Express (USA) has tightened their data processing to verify promotion eligibility.

My recollection is that last year's version of this promotion was also targetted. I contacted American Express customer service yesterday by email to inquire if Ms Mia's account was eligible. The reply:

We have reviewed your inquiry and apologize that this promotion is not available for your account. Please be advised that the bonus points will be awarded based on a list of the targeted Cardmembers that received the direct mail or email. The offer is valid for the addressee only and non-transferable.

This is only of theoretical interest to us because we redeem Membership Rewards points for Virgin Atlantic Flying Club miles, but those who hope to convert to hotel points had best wait to receive an invitation or complain persuasively about being excluded.

I called Amex and they said I had to have recieved the offer to be eligable for the bonus points. I don't know if they can police it though.Don't hold your breath - customer service has zero pull with the marketing department. You may be able to pick up a few points for a letter, though.

Just received an offer of two for one on MR points to SPG.

IT's 50% more SPG points. NOT 2 for 1.

It's 50% more SPG points. NOT 2 for 1.

Actually it's both ;). The normal conversion rate is 3:1 (1000:333), during the promotion it would be 2:1 (1000:500).

I've got almost a million MR that I would love to get into AA in order to get MM and lifetime gold on AA which I only fly occasionally. I've prrbably got 250K on AA toward MM, so if I took a million MR = 500,000 SPG = 625,000 AA I would be close. But ouch. Usually I convert MR to DL at about 1.3:1 so I'd end up with half as many AA miles as I could get with DL miles. I confess I have a hard time using DL miles. I guess I will just let the MR points keep piling up and hope to get something better out of them.

I've got almost a million MR that I would love to get into AA in order to get MM and lifetime gold on AA which I only fly occasionally. I've prrbably got 250K on AA toward MM, so if I took a million MR = 500,000 SPG = 625,000 AA I would be close. But ouch. Usually I convert MR to DL at about 1.3:1 so I'd end up with half as many AA miles as I could get with DL miles. I confess I have a hard time using DL miles. I guess I will just let the MR points keep piling up and hope to get something better out of them.

This is almost point for point my situation! Maybe AA will sign on again soon now that plat gives lounge access.

And maybe that's wishful thinking..

I'd love to see AA sign on again to accept MR - but think of the liability AA is taking on, and the devaluation of the AA program if tons of MR get moved into the AA program. As it is, it seems tough to get much more than $0.01 in value for a MR point, but AA and other airline miles can be more valuable.

I've searched and I can't find a recent posting on this topic. Does anyone have an update as to the most economical way to move MR points to AA miles?
25k MR -> 25k CO, 25k CO -> 25k AGR, 25k AGR -> 125k CP, 125k CP -> 25k AA

25k MR -> 25k CO, 25k CO -> 25k AGR, 25k AGR -> 125k CP, 125k CP -> 25k AA

Would you mind giving more detailed instructions? Assume AGR is Amtrak Guest Rewards and CP is Choice Privileges? How do you transfer from Choice Privileges to AA?

But I thought you can only transfer 25,000 Amtrak points per year. At that rate it would take 5 years to get the 25,000 AA miles. Or am I wrong and can you transfer more per year?

But I thought you can only transfer 25,000 Amtrak points per year. At that rate it would take 5 years to get the 25,000 AA miles. Or am I wrong and can you transfer more per year?

No, you're right in your assumption, it would take 5 years. So what he said is right, you can convert in the step-by-step process he listed, you just need to be patient :)

No, you're right in your assumption, it would take 5 years. So what he said is right, you can convert in the step-by-step process he listed, you just need to be patient :)

actually you need to be patient AND alive in 5 years time to benefit.... ;)

Why would it take 5 years to get 25K AA? Going through the exchanges mentioned above, 1 MR = 1 AGR = 1 AA (with other steps in between). To get 25K AA you would only need to start with 25K MR and get 25K AGR (after 25K CO). You can transfer 25K AGR out per year (even with no status), so you could get 25K AA in one year.

What am I missing?

Would you mind giving more detailed instructions? Assume AGR is Amtrak Guest Rewards and CP is Choice Privileges? How do you transfer from Choice Privileges to AA?

25,000 American Express Membership Rewards (MR) converts 1:1 in 1,000 increments to 25,000 Continental OnePass Miles (CO) or (OP to be correct)

25,000 OP miles converts 1:1 in 5,000 increments to 25,000 Amtrak Guest Rewards (AGR) points

25,000 AGR points converts 1:5 in 5,000 increments to 125,000 Choice Privileges (CP)

125,000 CP points converts 5:1 in 5,000 increments to 25,000 American Airlines AAdvantage (AA) miles

Ultimately, you are converting 25,000 Amex MR points to 25,000 AA miles on a 1:1 basis. As far as I know the only fee involved is the $.0005 transfer fee assessed by Amex, all the others are fee free.

The only limiter that I see is that you can only transfer 25,000 AGR points out of your account per calendar year. If you are AGR Select or Select Plus you can transfer 50,000 points per year.

If you start now you might be able to get 25K (or 50k if AGR Select or Select Plus) transfered this year then do it again in January if you are looking to transfer the maximum number of MR to AA in the shortest time.

Right. That was pretty dumb of me. It only takes 25K to get to 125K to get to 25K. So it's all done in one year. I was looking at the 125K and thinking that it was Amtrak but it isn't. It's 125K CP. Forgive my stupidity. And thanks for straightening me out. Now, is there any way to do this to get the points into either US Airways or United to be able to use a Star Alliance partner?

Pointsgalore,

The answer to your question is yes. Choice privilege converts 5000 Choice points to 1000 airline frequent flier miles on Aeroplan, Alaska Airlines, American, Continental, Delta, Mexicana, Northwest, United, and USAirways. You can also convert 5000 Choice points into 2 Southwest Rapid Rewards Credits.

Keep in mind though that the Amtrak to Choice limit is 25,000 per year meaning you would only have 125,000 choice points per calendar year or 25 increments of 1,000 miles so you could not accumulate more then 25,000 miles across all the airlines listed above. Also keep in mind that amtrak can change their redemption schedule at any point or eliminate partners.

I am intrgued by this. Are there any other restriction on any of the intermediate transfers between MR and AA like minimum activity or source of incoming points (like HA has instituted for MR->HA->HH)?

25k MR -> 25k CO, 25k CO -> 25k AGR, 25k AGR -> 125k CP, 125k CP -> 25k AA

This is EXCELLENT, as I've been looking for a way to get some MR points over to AA... I just moved MR points instantly into CO... Will do the CO transfer Monday when CS is open... Just signed up for a CP account as well...

1:1 MR to AA is great... I plan to do this again January 1st :)

This is EXCELLENT, as I've been looking for a way to get some MR points over to AA... I just moved MR points instantly into CO... Will do the CO transfer Monday when CS is open... Just signed up for a CP account as well...

1:1 MR to AA is great... I plan to do this again January 1st :)

can somebody tell me how long the total transfer takes between MR to AA. I know MR to CO is instant, but not familar with the other transfers.

This is EXCELLENT, as I've been looking for a way to get some MR points over to AA... I just moved MR points instantly into CO... Will do the CO transfer Monday when CS is open... Just signed up for a CP account as well...

1:1 MR to AA is great... I plan to do this again January 1st :)

If you could report back on the process (either while it's happening or once it's done) it would be greatly appreciated by those of us intending to do this soon ;)

If you could report back on the process (either while it's happening or once it's done) it would be greatly appreciated by those of us intending to do this soon ;)

Will do... I called CO today and they said the miles will post to AGR within "2 weeks", but I heard that it happens Sunday evening so I have about 1 week to wait... I'll immediately go online to AGR and transfer to Choice when they post to amtrak... and will continue to post updates...

This is EXCELLENT, as I've been looking for a way to get some MR points over to AA... I just moved MR points instantly into CO... Will do the CO transfer Monday when CS is open... Just signed up for a CP account as well...

1:1 MR to AA is great... I plan to do this again January 1st :)


I am also going to initiate the transfer today as well. Are you sure you can do it once in a calendar year or is it every 12 months?

Just to update, my AGR points posted this morning. I immediately transferred them to Choice Privileges. From what I hear, the 125k CP points should post this Friday... I'll keep everyone updated...

Just to update, my AGR points posted this morning. I immediately transferred them to Choice Privileges. From what I hear, the 125k CP points should post this Friday... I'll keep everyone updated...

Thanks for the update. Wondering whether you could include a timeline in your next update (eg Date - transferred MR to CO; date2 - miles appeared in CO, etc...). It would be a great resource for us following your lead :D

Thanks for the update. Wondering whether you could include a timeline in your next update (eg Date - transferred MR to CO; date2 - miles appeared in CO, etc...). It would be a great resource for us following your lead :D

Timeline:
10-NOV-07 - Transferred MR to CO
10-NOV-07 - CO points posted (posted instantly after MR transfer)
12-NOV-07 - Transferred CO to AGR (CO cust service was closed on the weekend so I had to wait till Monday to request transfer, cannot be done online)
19-NOV-07 - AGR points posted (posted early Monday morning as suspected)
19-NOV-07 - Transferred AGR to CP

Timeline:
10-NOV-07 - Transferred MR to CO
10-NOV-07 - CO points posted (posted instantly after MR transfer)
12-NOV-07 - Transferred CO to AGR (CO cust service was closed on the weekend so I had to wait till Monday to request transfer, cannot be done online)
19-NOV-07 - AGR points posted (posted early Monday morning as suspected)
19-NOV-07 - Transferred AGR to CP

Thanks ^^ You're a champ.

Thanks!! I suppose I should go delete my earlier thread about working this number for a transfer into Southwest RR...since the whole nine yards up to the actual AA transfer will work for that program also. I'm going to try to get this xfer done for AA by 12/31 and do another one 1/1/08 for the SWRR.

Just pressed the button for my 25K into CO. Was going to shoot for Amtrak Select so I could process 50K next year, but noticed but you have to build up points using actual rail travel and there are zero Amtrak routes in my area code...

Thanks!! I suppose I should go delete my earlier thread about working this number for a transfer into Southwest RR...since the whole nine yards up to the actual AA transfer will work for that program also. I'm going to try to get this xfer done for AA by 12/31 and do another one 1/1/08 for the SWRR.

Just pressed the button for my 25K into CO. Was going to shoot for Amtrak Select so I could process 50K next year, but noticed but you have to build up points using actual rail travel and there are zero Amtrak routes in my area code...

Even if you lived near amtrak routes, 50k of rail travel is a lot...

Hey folks, just an update mentioned in another thread for folks considering the points-laundering scheme above: If you do 25K now into Choice and 25K in January, but transfer to Southwest instead of AA, you get a free companion pass for a year on SWA.

Just a thought, although I realize SWA doesn't fly internationally, among other issues.

Thanks for the update. Wondering whether you could include a timeline in your next update (eg Date - transferred MR to CO; date2 - miles appeared in CO, etc...). It would be a great resource for us following your lead :D

I, too, have a timeline to share, a successfully lossless transfer of 15k RDMs from CO to AA:
Transfe Request Date Cited Timeframe Arrival Da Actual Source description Destination Description
CO-AGR 9-Nov 2 weeks 11-Nov 2 days 'Amtrak Mileage Transfer 2VX15' Continental Exchange
AGR-CP 12-Nov 6-8 weeks 16-Nov 4 days Choice Privileges - 25,000 Choice Privileges Amtrak Guest Rewards Points (thrice)
CP-AA 16-Nov 6-8 weeks 20-Nov 4 days 5000 American Airlines Advantage miles (thrice) CHOICE HOTEL POINT CONVERSION


Or, more briefly:
CO-AGR: 2 days (had to call)
AGR-CP: 4 days (online)
CP-AA: 4 days (online)

Each approximately 1 day for each week of the gloomy estimates given when I initiated each transfer.

Total 11 days (would have been 10 had I noticed quicker that the AGR points had arrived from CO). YMMV. :)

w00t.

Thanks!
Chris

Coupon Connection might help too.

I have gone through the great steps mentioned in this thread from 25K MR to 25K OP to 25K AGR on the way to 125K CP (for the purpose of getting 25K AA). But everyone needs to see this thread - which was just started:

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=763122

Apparently AGR just changed the redemtion terms as of 12/1!! Furthermore, my pending transfer, which shows as fulfilled in the AGR account, states 5K AGR to 15K CP (not 25K CP as it should be)!! Not good at all.

Nuts!! My husband just transferred from CO to AGR and we were waiting for it to appear. I guess now we will transfer them back to CO since we don't want to lose any points.

Has anyone been in touch with Amtrak about this? Don't the airlines and hotels generally give you advance notice that changes will be made even if they don't say what the changes are? Was any notice given by Amtrak?

There's a thread about this in the Southwest forum...Basically, nobody has had points actually post to Choice in the last ten days or so, but we do think this program has been devalued about 40%. It's still a good deal, just (as Beckles said) not a nuclear-hot deal.

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=747794&page=19

Thanks, I have been looking for this for a while .... 25K MR to AA

I have gone through the great steps mentioned in this thread from 25K MR to 25K OP to 25K AGR on the way to 125K CP (for the purpose of getting 25K AA). But everyone needs to see this thread - which was just started:

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=763122

Apparently AGR just changed the redemtion terms as of 12/1!! Furthermore, my pending transfer, which shows as fulfilled in the AGR account, states 5K AGR to 15K CP (not 25K CP as it should be)!! Not good at all.

YIKES! Thanks for the heads-up. I was thinking about going this route but won't now!

Thanks, I have been looking for this for a while .... 25K MR to AA

Um, not. Click the above link. AMGR (Amtrak) have cracked down on our scheme and reduced their transfer ratio to Choice...was: 5K<25K, now 5K<15K. So you'll only get 75,000 Choice points, for a total of 15K AA points.

Not a terrible deal, but not terrific, and you can only transfer 50K AMGR per year...so you can't use this method to qualify for even one free AA ticket per year. Sucks.

Not a terrible deal, but not terrific, and you can only transfer 50K AMGR per year...Only if you have elite status with Amtrak; 25K for those that don't.

What's the minimum miles transferrable CO->AGR and AGR->CP ? I was going to take advantage of this route to move all of my Amex MRs but since this devaluation I think I will just add to my orphan 4k CO miles and bring that over to AA

So can I do 5k CO -> 5k AGR -> 15k CP - > 3k AAdv?

So can I do 5k CO -> 5k AGR -> 15k CP - > 3k AAdv?

Yes you can do this - 5K is the MINIMUM requirement

Not a terrible deal, but not terrific, and you can only transfer 50K AMGR per year...so you can't use this method to qualify for even one free AA ticket per year. Sucks.

Option to transfer from AGR to Choices has been stopped

Assuming AGR were sharp (and it does not seem they are a well run program at all) they may pick up on this sort of blatant abuse of the T+C.

But doing it they way I have done it for 3 years now - really not a problem.

Excellent point. ^:)

Excellent point. ^:)

No--I respectfully disagree. It is not an excellent point.
It is abuse. Sooner or later, you might get caught. But even if you don't, I can't help but wonder if the greed of selected individuals (some people may go well beyond a handful of accounts, too) hurts the average user who is willing to follow program rules.

There is a difference between taking advantage of a good deal and scheming to get around rules.

Note that apparently the Choice redemption from AGR has been pulled as of today. (The website supports this changing the "call 1-800-XXX-XXXX" text with "Temporarily unavailable").

Gee..uh sorry, but I still think it was an excellent point. How bout that, some of actually enjoy making up our own minds about our own accounts - notice accounts is plural. As for risking our status, forfeiture, etc and blah, blah, blah - well...guess we'll just have be concerned about our OWN accounts then, huh? And not worry so much about violating the not-so-much balley-hooed Amtrack T&C's. LOL. Since AGR has apparently ceased transfers to CP, I guess those of us who don't fear the almighty T&C's so much might just have to find another program's T&C's to exploit (notice I didn't say violate - as that would be wrong :p).

Gee..uh sorry, but I still think it was an excellent point. How bout that, some of actually enjoy making up our own minds about our own accounts - notice accounts is plural. As for risking our status, forfeiture, etc and blah, blah, blah - well...guess we'll just have be concerned about our OWN accounts then, huh? And not worry so much about violating the not-so-much balley-hooed Amtrack T&C's. LOL. Since AGR has apparently ceased transfers to CP, I guess those of us who don't fear the almighty T&C's so much might just have to find another program's T&C's to exploit (notice I didn't say violate - as that would be wrong :p).

Have you read the T&C's? Are you sure it isn't a violation?

Over before I had a chance to use it .... ouch

Option to transfer from AGR to Choices has been stopped

It's now worse than that. As of an hour ago Amtrak is reversing ALREADY COMPLETED transfers! See this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=747794) starting at post 512.

Timeline:
10-NOV-07 - Transferred MR to CO
10-NOV-07 - CO points posted (posted instantly after MR transfer)
12-NOV-07 - Transferred CO to AGR (CO cust service was closed on the weekend so I had to wait till Monday to request transfer, cannot be done online)
19-NOV-07 - AGR points posted (posted early Monday morning as suspected)
19-NOV-07 - Transferred AGR to CP
14-DEC-07 - Choice points posted (posted early Friday morning, FINALLY!!!)

Just thought I'd finish out the timeline here, even though this deal is dead/no longer a 1:1 option with the devaluation of AGR-->Choice

14-DEC-07 - Choice points posted (posted early Friday morning, FINALLY!!!)


My Choice points also posted this morning! All 125,000. Sent them all straight to AA (in 5 tedious 5000 mile individual transactions). Here's hoping I have 25,000 additional AA miles in my account soon!

My Choice points also posted this morning! All 125,000. Sent them all straight to AA (in 5 tedious 5000 mile individual transactions). Here's hoping I have 25,000 additional AA miles in my account soon!

Ditto. My Dec 3 transfer posted for 75000 some time today.

Why bother with MR at all?

I use my Starwood AMEX card and its points are far more valuable. Also its cost is far less than most AMEX options. Even my platinum and centurion friend carry the Starwood card for most spending. They do better than 1 to 1 to AA. 20,000 Starwood points = 25,000 AA miles.

Transfers from MR to Starwood are available but at a very high cost. They are either 3 to 1 or at special times 2 to 1. When 2 to 1, 80,000 MR points equates to 40,000 Starwood points which equates to 50,000 AA miles. Not awful if you really need them. At 3 to 1 you'd need 120,000 MR points to get 50,000 AA miles.

Why bother with MR at all?

I use my Starwood AMEX card and its points are far more valuable. Also its cost is far less than most AMEX options. Even my platinum and centurion friend carry the Starwood card for most spending. They do better than 1 to 1 to AA. 20,000 Starwood points = 25,000 AA miles.

Transfers from MR to Starwood are available but at a very high cost. They are either 3 to 1 or at special times 2 to 1. When 2 to 1, 80,000 MR points equates to 40,000 Starwood points which equates to 50,000 AA miles. Not awful if you really need them. At 3 to 1 you'd need 120,000 MR points to get 50,000 AA miles.

Ya, I use the SPG Amex for all my personal spending, but I still acquire MR points through other means, such as corporate spending on corporate amex card... Can't use any other card for that unfortunately...

Why bother with MR at all?

For the free up front points bonuses for first use, plus free cash for obtaining the cards that provide the points. See my website below, Credit Cards > Annual Fee Cards (though the first year is usually free) > American Express (near the bottom of the page). Free is free.

I use the *wood amex too, but with free Admiral's club and 4 comp tixs, i can't get rid of the amex plat.

My Choice points also posted this morning! All 125,000. Sent them all straight to AA (in 5 tedious 5000 mile individual transactions). Here's hoping I have 25,000 additional AA miles in my account soon!

Just a final update, my AA miles posted this morning^^. Thank God I'm out of that crazy AGR/CP mess. All I can say is I'm happy I'm a Hilton guy, not a CP guy. I won't even talk about AGR, lol.

Here's hoping everyone else gets their AA miles as well!

10-NOV-07 - Transferred MR to CO
10-NOV-07 - CO points posted (posted instantly after MR transfer)
12-NOV-07 - Transferred CO to AGR (CO cust service was closed on the weekend so I had to wait till Monday to request transfer, cannot be done online)
19-NOV-07 - AGR points posted (posted early Monday morning as suspected)
19-NOV-07 - Transferred AGR to CP
14-DEC-07 - Choice points posted (posted early Friday morning, FINALLY!!!)
14-DEC-07 - Choice points transferred to AA
17-DEC-07 - AA miles posted! Mission accomplished!

10-NOV-07 - Transferred MR to CO
10-NOV-07 - CO points posted (posted instantly after MR transfer)
12-NOV-07 - Transferred CO to AGR (CO cust service was closed on the weekend so I had to wait till Monday to request transfer, cannot be done online)
19-NOV-07 - AGR points posted (posted early Monday morning as suspected)
19-NOV-07 - Transferred AGR to CP
14-DEC-07 - Choice points posted (posted early Friday morning, FINALLY!!!)
14-DEC-07 - Choice points transferred to AA
17-DEC-07 - AA miles posted! Mission accomplished!

Congrats on getting in on this before it blew up - wish I had but I only had 10-15k of MRs anyway so no big deal. I just went with Home Depot GCs instead.