MilesBuzz! - Yes it's against the rules, but ...

so is driving 56 mph in many places. Here're the facts: my Dad and I have the same name (I'm a "Jr."); however, my ff cards generally do not have "Jr." on them. We have different addresses. I fly fairly regularly (altho it can be hot and cold) for both business and pleasure; he rarely flies, and has never accrued enough to earn an award (and that will probably not change). I've often thought about asking him use my ff when he flies, but never have. My q's are: (1) what's the likelihood I could get away w/ this, and (2) should I try? thx tls (ps; someone else started a similar thread on the CO board, but for me it would apply to all airlines).

I know a couple of friends who used to do (and are still doing) this with UA. They have exactly the same names except one was Snr and the other Jnr. So, since Jnr flew a lot on biz and never needed free flights then his father took extreme pleasure in claiming award flights at his son's expense.

Does your father have an ID with the exact same name as what's on your FF account? I tend to think the answer is yes based on your post. If so, it would probably work.

However, with all of the new security, and considering existing airline rules, you'd have to be aware of where your father was flying. If you fly LAX-NRT today and your father flies under your name from MIA-LHR tomorrow, you're probably going to get caught one way or another.

(edited to add) For international travel, I know AA has my passport number in my FF profile. That could get your father in trouble when he checks in and they scan his passport into the airline computer or when he arrives at his destination (e.g. when departing for the US, airlines must electronically submit names and passport numbers ahead of time).

d

[This message has been edited by Doppy (edited 02-12-2002).]

I know a married couple who do this all the time. They have first names that are almost the same, and they always book under the same name and FF number. They now have a Platinum card, which they would never have otherwise, get all the extra bonuses, and a Platinum can always upgrade a spouse when they travel together.

Bruce

I agree that you are asking for trouble if you do this internationally, because of the passport numbers. You are risking a lot of headache dealing with some feds for a few miles IMHO.

As for reward travel, I thought you could redeem miles in anyones' name. In other words, you can gift the ticket, but not the miles. I could be mistaken.

So the only reasons to do it is to have the miles he flies count towards your account and to give him the benefits of any status you have. It may be worth it.

I think that "against the rules" is a nice way of putting it. It would be stealing.
Sometimes things that are against the "rules" are not quite as bad. Sometimes they're only against the airline's rules, but not illegal. I don't know, but maybe buying a ticket with extra segments that you don't intend to use because it comes out cheaper that way is against the airline's rules. But I don't think it's illegal, and it's very hard to find fault in taking advantage of such a situation.
But in this case you're ending up with benefits of status that you did not earn, or taking an award from them using "combined" miles when they're not willing to give you the award on such terms. I think that you essentially would be "stealing" that award, or the benefits you earned through status.
I happen to have a cousin with the exact same name as me. I fly quite a bit. He flies occasionally, and not always on the same airline. I suspect that he hasn't even bothered signing up to any programs. It's always felt like a waste to me for his miles to go to "waste" sine it would be so easy to have them credited to my account. Just like it would be so easy for me to get reimbursed by his insurance company for Doctor's visits I've had where he lives.

Flaco, is it also "stealing" when an airline touts an award that has so many strings and undisclosed limitations on it that its illusory? If so, do you have a lecture for the airlines?

I disagree. I have two different US passports. Each one has a different number. I have used both of them on the same trip. One on the outbound and one on the return and I have never had a problem.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
I disagree. I have two different US passports. Each one has a different number. I have used both of them on the same trip. One on the outbound and one on the return and I have never had a problem.</font>

Two US passports? A diplomatic and a normal passport? I thought that a single person possessing two valid US passports were generally against the "rules".

Thanks for the info.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by thelostshark:
so is driving 56 mph in many places. Here're the facts: my Dad and I have the same name (I'm a "Jr."); however, my ff cards generally do not have "Jr." on them. We have different addresses. I fly fairly regularly (altho it can be hot and cold) for both business and pleasure; he rarely flies, and has never accrued enough to earn an award (and that will probably not change). I've often thought about asking him use my ff when he flies, but never have. My q's are: (1) what's the likelihood I could get away w/ this, and (2) should I try? thx tls (ps; someone else started a similar thread on the CO board, but for me it would apply to all airlines). </font>

I say More power to you! I don't see why this wouldn't work.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by GUWonder:
Two US passports? A diplomatic and a normal passport? I thought that a single person possessing two valid US passports were generally against the "rules".</font>

There are a number of legitimate purposes for holding two passports. In order to facilitate travel and visa processing needs of frequent travellers abroad, the Passport Office will issue a second passport valid for all countries but limited in validity. The usual validity granted is 2 years.

Also, due to certain political situations around the world, it is sometimes difficult to obtain permission to enter one country if a passport shows evidence of past or intended travel to Israel and/or South Africa. In some cases, visas are denied to US citizens. To avoid this problem, the US Passport Office will issue a second, restricted passport valid for a maximum of 2 years. The validity of the passport may be extended every 2 years till the full 10 year validity is reached.

If the applicant's current passport already has evidence of past or intended travel to Israel, a new passport valid for all countries for 2 years may be issued. The original passport would remain valid.

The passport validity may be extended several times for 2 years each time until full validity of 10 years is reached.

Additionally, many who travel on official business hold a second, "official travel" passport.


[This message has been edited by MatthewClement (edited 02-12-2002).]

You know it is wrong, but do not care if you can get away with it.

Nice thing for a resume.

Then, your father, not you are suggested to do this wrong thing. Let him be detained, jailed or at least humilitated

duh, nice guy.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
Flaco, is it also "stealing" when an airline touts an award that has so many strings and undisclosed limitations on it that its illusory? If so, do you have a lecture for the airlines?</font>

I wouldn't consider it stealing. What did they steal from you?

If they tell you that if you pay X we will give you Y and they misrepresent the nature of Y, then you can argue that they stole X from you.
But if they advertise a wonderful award and then make only 1 seat available making it virtually impossible for anyone to take advantage of the offer, altough it is disgusting, maybe even "false" advertising, maybe even criminal- what could you possibly claim was stolen?

Regarding my lecture to the airlines- I don't think they really care what I think, except in as much as it effects how much money I throw their way, which is nothing significant.
Although I would not be surprised if thelostshark is of the same opinion, being that this is a public forum I chose to express my opinion. thelostshark will probably just sigh at my opinion and ignore it, which is fine. But maybe not.

When I entered South Africa, I was asked if I wanted a one entry stamp or multiple entries. I needed only the one entry. The stamp is on a removeable piece of paper, not on the page of the passport. Now I know why. Thank you.

I know someone who named his boys so that they had the same name as him, except for their middle or first names - I forget which.

Anyway, when I was checking in for an AA flight with him, he couldn't remember his ff number and the agent looked him up by name, finding him three times (actually, him and his two sons). The agent and I were like, huh, but he explained to me with the agent kind of half listening until he just said, "so which do you want to use."

You aren't shooting the pope, so don't let any of these posters who indicate as much get to you. The airline could care less ... its got bigger worries. Just get an ff account for both of you and either of you can give either number when you check in.

Further, along with the fact that some people have more than one passport, if you don't have your passport no. listed on your profile, how are they going to know who is who (by passport no.) on international flights? And, that's if anyone at the airline even cares.

Lastly, for what airlines pull, it would be hypocritical of them to look toward you first, to begin flinging accusations of lying, cheating or stealing.

[This message has been edited by lisamcgu (edited 02-12-2002).]

I'm not claiming that it's a terrible crime. I just don't think that it's ethical. I sort of agree with the argument that "they deserve it"- they probably do deserve it, but I don't think that that justifies you doing it to them.

As to lisamcgu's advice- I would have one concern. Although the airlines do have more important things do worry about, they still seem to choose to sometimes busy themselves with petty things like this. I would consider it risky for two people put flights on the same account if one person couldn't have theoretically done all the flying. It would really make you trouble if an agent happens to look at you account. That's besides the point that Doppy raised- that the security people might react to it.

Sure, it's against the rules - but in this case It's one of those interesting quirks in the system. If you can let your namesake fly in F once in a while, or pick up some miles/points - its no ones business but your own. Stealing? Give me a break, on the morality scale this rates just a little worse than installing your buddies copy of software on your own computer. If the airlines were THAT concerned about it, it would take a little more effort to sign up for a FF account. They want the business - look at how easy it is to get status on HP.

[This message has been edited by raincityrd (edited 02-12-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by raincityrd:
Stealing? Give me a break, on the morality scale this rates just a little worse than installing your buddies copy of software on your own computer. If the airlines were THAT concerned about it, it would take a little more effort to sign up for a FF account. They want the business - look at how easy it is to get status on HP.

[This message has been edited by raincityrd (edited 02-12-2002).]</font>

I agree. Installing unlicensed software is stealing. That's because we respect "intellectual property". I also agree that it's not quite the same as breaking into the Gates' household and walking off the with the silverware, but you are stealing.

In my opinion the HP argument is relevant but not sufficient. Imagine I stand at a street corner and randomly hand out $100 bills to strangers passing by. If you were to sneak up behind me and pickpocket me, taking only the $100 I seem to be willing to give just about anyone, you still stole $100, because it's mine and I DIDN'T give it to you. If I was the judge sentencing you, I would obviously take the circumstances into account, maybe even laugh at the whole thing- but you still stole $100.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flaco:
If they tell you that if you pay X we will give you Y and they misrepresent the nature of Y, then you can argue that they stole X from you.</font>

So, when the airline says it needs to expedite delivery of an award ticket for a trip 20 days away, to make sure it makes it on time, but, like clockwork, they know that your ticket will arrive in your mailbox within a week, barring it getting lost in the mail which would delay it forever anyway, and you say, please don't expedite it, as I don't want to be charged the mandatory fee of $50!, and they say that they have to, mandatorily, charge you the fee to INSURE that the tickets arrive within 20 days when, again, they know that they will be there in a week, regardless, then what are you really paying for?

A) X, or B) Y, or C) nothing?

Obviously, its C, nothing.

To say the airlines can't be accused of stealing is to say you haven't returned from your trip to fantasyland.

The answer is C) nothing. It's despicable. It's the big company taking advantage of the small consumer because the small consumer has no recourse. I believe that if possible and practical laws should be passed deeming such actions illegal.
But they didn't STEAL. You paid for nothing knowingly. Yes, it was becuase you had no other choice, other than giving up on the ticket. But you knew what you were getting.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flaco:
... But they didn't STEAL. You paid for nothing knowingly. Yes, it was becuase you had no other choice, other than giving up on the ticket. But you knew what you were getting.</font>

So when I get mugged, its not stealing because I gave over my wallet "knowingly" and not expecting anything in return.

Please ...

You may be right.

I think that there is a difference. The difference is very small- in one case you have the choice of not ordering the ticket. In the other case you have the choice of giving up your life. I think that giving up your life is not really a "choice" you had, as opposed to not ordering the ticket because the terms are crazy.

Or, you can bypass the madness, go proactive, and figure out a way to get around having someone, or some big business, steal from you:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum71/HTML/007924.html

Off topic:
I know that in Israel, they ask if you want your passport stamped so that if you are travelling on business to other middle east countries, you won't raise all kinds of red flags by having the Israel stamp in your passport.

The Canadian government will also provide citizens with a passport that doesn't state place of birth if they were born in Israel and want to travel to certain Arab countries. If you order a passport at the Canadian Embassy in Tel Aviv you can request that it be issued in Canada so that you won't have problems in certain Arab countries for having your passport issued in Tel Aviv.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
I agree that you are asking for trouble if you do this internationally, because of the passport numbers. You are risking a lot of headache dealing with some feds for a few miles IMHO.</font>


Passport numbers? Are you saying that the airlines are dumping data into our profiles without our knowledge? I really highly doubt that is happening at all.

As a frequent traveler to Israel I have asked many times not to have my passport stamped and it doesn't raise any red flags.
They know it can be a reason to be searched and questioned in other countries.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by duxfan:

Passport numbers? Are you saying that the airlines are dumping data into our profiles without our knowledge? I really highly doubt that is happening at all.

</font>

My NW Plat. Elite profile contains my passport #, passport expiration date, passport country of issue, and my date of birth. So it's possible and indeed likely that Elite fliers have quite a bit of data in their FF profiles...

As in many situations, this one is not entirely black or white. From the nature of your posting, it sounds like you already have doubts as to whether this is ethical... every person has to establish their own code of conduct.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flaco:
[B] I agree. Installing unlicensed software is stealing. That's because we respect "intellectual property". I also agree that it's not quite the same as breaking into the Gates' household and walking off the with the silverware, but you are stealing. [B]</font>

I want to say that I completely respect your viewpoint as to it being theft. I disagree . . . and know that your mind cannot be changed. However, I am of the mind that the airlines do not REALLY have a problem with it. What happens if they cancel an elite member's account when a child uses their number? Are they going to risk losing that passenger? And btw - whenever I go to Arby's I always take extra Arby's sauce home with me (stealing. . . possibly) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by duxfan:

Passport numbers? Are you saying that the airlines are dumping data into our profiles without our knowledge? I really highly doubt that is happening at all.

</font>

I know Continental gives you the option of entering your passport No. when you register to buy tickets at their website.

As for the original topic, there's no way that the suggested dodge is 100 percent legit. Someone is getting elite perks they aren't entitled to.

At the same time, I'm not sure of how serious an offense it is. I booked a flight for my father once (different middle initials only). I had given my FF No. in advance, but I specifically told the phone agent that, despite the similar names, this was my dad, and there was NO REASON that the FF No. should have been applied to the reservation. Of course, I got 500 miles, called the airline to inform them, and they said "don't worry about it."

Also, it was a cheap round-trip ticket, bought with the intention of throwing it away, which was the only rule we were trying to defeat in the first place!

British Airways offers a family account. All members of a household can pool miles!!!

Most airlines input your passport information into their system on international flights. When the flight leaves the gate, the entire manifest with passport numbers is faxed to the arrival port customs office for the review. In many cases they know who they want to talk to before your plane lands.

Since about 1992 (?? give or take a year) carriers into the US MUST collect passport information and submit it electronically to INS. See relevent posts in Omni regarding the fact that Saudia, PIA and the like were not doing this before.

Seems like each of us has a bit of a difference about what is right and what it wrong.

The original poster admits that it is wrong. He only asks if cheating can be done without being caught.

For those who "accomplish theft" without being caught, they will find a day of when these things will be accounted for. This accounting will not be done with our definitions of what are wrongs and what are "not wrongs, because..." .

WE all would be better off if everone tried to behave in a way that is consistent with the law, contracts we enter and relationships we make.

Alas there are always those that don't pay their bills, cross on the red, steal from others, speed on purpose, drive drunk, beat their children, etc. Each has an excuse why their travesty is ok.

This reminds me of the child who earned c's and d's but the parents were glad that "at least the child is not taking drugs"

I would hope we all hope to do better. At least we should be ashamed to openly seek abettors to our crime.

The original poster is asking the wrong people "should I try?" IMHO.

There is only one other party to your contract/relationship that would be concerned or involved in this, and that is your airline.

Ask them what they think about it.

What you do after you get their response will determin if your actions are ethical or not.

I don't have to ask my airline. The answer to your question is clearly spelled out in the terms and conditions of membership that I have agreed to by participating in their frequent flyer program.

And that, my friend PremEx, is the last word.

The only test should be...

Can you sleep at night? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I was checking this subject for my surveys and found the most stupid ways to claim awards.

I have made one return flight with AOM from Orly to Sydney (back in 1999/2000)

I have claimed this Business Class trip under 5 different Qualiflyer numbers and they al got approved. (This was the same with Sabena and Swissair.)

In that time you could fly for 60.000 miles with AOM to Noumea. So with one flight I (normally 30.000 miles) I got 150.000 points in total, so two free tickets and a bit more for one flight, not bad I would say.

That Qualiflyer program didn't work at all.
Also I travel a lot on staff tickets and even those tickets where awarded.

The miles and More program works perfect and don't put the miles on your card.

One World also made a few mistakes especially with Qantas, got double, double points.

What also works is opening different FF programs, let say:

Qualiflyer and AA. Claim on both programs, but this only works if you send the copy of the Boarding passes later. Don't let them put it on your card automatically.
Just say at the desk I am not an ff member.

So I hope you have some nice tips

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by thelostshark:
so is driving 56 mph in many places. Here're the facts: my Dad and I have the same name (I'm a "Jr."); however, my ff cards generally do not have "Jr." on them. We have different addresses. I fly fairly regularly (altho it can be hot and cold) for both business and pleasure; he rarely flies, and has never accrued enough to earn an award (and that will probably not change). I've often thought about asking him use my ff when he flies, but never have. My q's are: (1) what's the likelihood I could get away w/ this, and (2) should I try? thx tls (ps; someone else started a similar thread on the CO board, but for me it would apply to all airlines). </font>


Two thoughts.

Are you willing to accept the ticket and the fine with driving 56 in a 55?

What would your mother think?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by seanthepilot:
The only test should be...

Can you sleep at night? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

Hmm. That would give me a lot of leeway. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif tls

I do not consider it theft because you have already paid for the benefit. This is not a case of counterfeiting FF miles but rather a creative way to maximize their use. In light of the airlines numerous ways to minimize their value over the years, I think this is warranted. For those of you who find this immoral, I would appreciate your thoughts on the way airlines have administered their FF programs and how they have treated PAX.

As to passport numbers, I do believe airlines share manifests with U.S. customs/immigration. I have read reports of Americans trying to travel to Cuba via the Bahamas who have been met by U.S. officials who were fully aware of their itinerary. This does not mean that the airlines record your passport number, just that flying under a false name internationally is probably a violation of a law raises the stakes considerably in my opinion.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
Since about 1992 (?? give or take a year) carriers into the US MUST collect passport information and submit it electronically to INS. See relevent posts in Omni regarding the fact that Saudia, PIA and the like were not doing this before.</font>


Thats comparing apples and oranges, I'm afraid. I asked whether the AIRLINES were collecting this info and keeping it for their use. The consensus is that they do not. Nor do I volunteer any additional information when travelling internationally. You (like me) may have been told that it is mandatory to collect contact data. It is not. I don't know where the info goes, nor do I know who has access to it, so I decline to provide it.

Since the airlines have only begun matching baggage recently, does anyone really think they are matching passport data? Is it ethical? Probably not. Does it make me reconsider name choices for the day Mrs Duxfan decide to have a dependant? Yep....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
... In light of the airlines numerous ways to minimize their value over the years, I think this is warranted. For those of you who find this immoral, I would appreciate your thoughts on the way airlines have administered their FF programs and how they have treated PAX.</font>Play by their rules or don't play at all. Seems like a simple game to me!

I'm with PremEx and QuietLion on this one.

This is fraud, plain and simple.

If the airline caught you and decided to prosecute you (which they probably would not) you would be convicted and sentenced. Fact of the matter is the airline wouldn't bother prosecuting (they'll just shut down your account and be done with it), but that does not change the fact that it is definitely illegal.

You can argue the airlines deserve what they're getting and so on, but that does not change the fact that it is fraud.

Come on people, from what I am reading here it sounds like you work for Delta's revenue protection unit. In no way do I condone this sort of activity but in no way is it illegal. Show me a law that you could be charged with.

Two wrongs do no make a right but the airlines have not set the example of always doing the right thing. I can site everything from the way they advertise to how they bury things in the tax lines as prime examples on how the airlines try to pull the wool over the consumers eyes.

I do not agree with the saying that you should play by their rules or do not use them. Not flying is not an option in many cases.

You could be charged with fraud or forgery.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by drtravels:


What would your mother think?</font>

Maybe she would think differently after a couple of free upgrades?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Show me a law that you could be charged with. </font>

Fraud.

Well said, and in such few words. Wish I could do that.

As noted above, this "stuff" is to be discouraged, and certainly not condoned, even if there is no prosecution forthcoming! Yet I agree that a fraud charge would not be out of the question!

And perhaps even more seriously, you'd likely forfeit ALL your miles too! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

How are you going to prove Fraud when using the same names. I have a neighbor who (not on purpose) is always having miles credited to the wrong account becuase his son happens to have his same name.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
I have a neighbor who (not on purpose) is always having miles credited to the wrong account becuase his son happens to have his same name. </font>

Ummm, if they told you about it and know it's happening, how could it continue to not be on purpose?

You can argue this is a "victimless crime" or "the airlines deserve it" or "they could never prove it", but that does not change the fact that it is fraud and fraud is a crime.

Heck, even the initial post indicated it's like doing 56 in a 55, that's a crime too.

As I was reading the original post all that I thought of was that I might be denied an upgrade because an infrequent flyer had been given it without having had to sit their butt down for a lot of miles on past flights. Any thoughts of the airlines never crossed my mine since I am not the airline.
So in retrospect if you are asking me than I will tell you that you are possibly cheating me. If you want to know what the airline is doing just ask them. <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by DuxfanYou (like me) may have been told that it is mandatory to collect contact data. It is not. I don't know where the info goes, nor do I know who has access to it, so I decline to provide it.</font>Than why do you ponder why you are preselected (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/mls/stories/2002-01-02-tv.htm) seemingly more often than most?

Hello FTers,

Does anyone have any knowledge (not "urban legends") of anyone losing FF miles, etc. when caught doing this?

Thanks

Va.SquireFlyer:

Yes. I recently spoke with someone very senior at a frequent flyer program (and when I say very senior, you see there name on mass letters that people get), and they told me that they do shut down accounts. Generally, they will give someone a warning but if the person violates the program again, they will close their account. And they have in the past. I did not get any sense from this person how often it happens, but, rest assured, it does happen.

I think there was an article in The Globe and Mail (a Canadian newspaper) a few years back about a dispute between Air Canada and their TOP FREQUENT FLYER! and AC was either threatening to or had terminated his account. I'm sure the folks over at the AC forum will know the story.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by magic111:
Then why do you ponder why you are preselected seemingly more often than most?</font>

Interesting point, but when I try to check in online at NWA.com, I get rejected because I've already been preselected. If I was sent to the "rubber glove search" after I declined to give out personal information, I might understand, but it appears that the preselection is done well before checkins for any particular flight begins.

Allow me to share a story with you:
For awhile I would regularly be sent for a secondary inspection by Canadian immigration any time I flew into Canada. As soon as I showed the ID of my employer at the time, the secondary inspection ended. But I asked the inspector why I was sent for the secondary, and he told me that at first I fit the profile of a drug dealer. He didn't tell me the exact nature of what tripped the profile, but I changed from casual to more formal dress for flights to Canada, and I guess that I looked the part better. At least the Canadians had the courtesy to tell me why I was constantly being singled out. Here in the "land of the free", my government is silent on who or what they are lookng for.

Beckles: My neighbors are upset about it and they keep on having problems. It is not what you think that all of the miles are going into one account but miles from various trips end up in each other's accounts. I still do not understand how this is called fraud.

Main Entry: fraud
Pronunciation: 'frod
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English fraude, from Middle French, from Latin fraud-, fraus
Date: 14th century
1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR; also : one who defrauds : CHEAT b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
synonym see DECEPTION, IMPOSTURE

As I believe was stated in a previous post, if you feel the need to ask others if what you are contemplating is OK, then you probably already have a pretty good idea that it's not and are just looking for something to help ease your conscience a bit. Why not do what you know to be right, rather than listening to what others with no real interest in you tell you to do. On the other hand, if you’re just worried about the chances of getting caught…

These next comments are not directed at thelostshark or any other FT in particular.

Has anyone else thought about how attitudes like "Well it's just a little lie" or "Hey it's ok to steal from big corporations because they're not people" or "It's OK to cheat the government" may be doing more long term harm to this country than any terrorist could ever hope to. The cumulative affect of this country’s decaying values over the past several generations is pretty evident today. Most kids learn values and morals from their parents, whether through direct interaction or more often simply by observing the parent’s actions. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” John 5.19. I’m not usually one to quote scripture but this one seemed so appropriate. I hope all you parents will think carefully about the examples you set for your children. I love my kids too much to want them to grow up as liars, cheats and thieves.

Now I'm sure there might be one or two out there that disagree and think I’m just some kind of right wing conservative family values nut ( no, I’m not Dan Quale ) that is deserving of the airlines cheating me out of extra bonus miles or upgrades. Frankly, I’ve never regarded the FF or hotel reward programs as anything but a little lagniappe. I’ll confess that I’m all for working within the rules to max out FF miles and hotel points, but honestly, these programs are not designed to be entitlement programs ( I’ll leave that to the liberals in D.C. Oops, maybe I am a conservative nut! ).

Stepping down off my soapbox now.

Ready, aim, fire!!

There are three kinds of people. The ones that learn by reading, the few that learn by observation, and the rest of us who have to touch the flame to see if it’s really hot.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Soonerman:
( I’ll leave that to the liberals in D.C. Oops, maybe I am a conservative nut! ).

</font>

Sometimes us liberals and you conservatives agree. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

sorry about the duplicate post

[This message has been edited by Soonerman (edited 02-13-2002).]

I wasn't referring to the contact info that they ask for. You are right and it is not mandatory. I have to imagine though that when they take the PP info for INS, they somehow retain it in their system.

Now I imagine that the system will not catch if you were to change PP #'s or even nationalities. What I do believe is that they will flag it if you "become" certain nationalities, or if you change the numbers quite frequently.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
As to passport numbers, I do believe airlines share manifests with U.S. customs/immigration. I have read reports of Americans trying to travel to Cuba via the Bahamas who have been met by U.S. officials who were fully aware of their itinerary. This does not mean that the airlines record your passport number, just that flying under a false name internationally is probably a violation of a law raises the stakes considerably in my opinion. </font>

Fortunately, the original poster had the same name as his relative and would be using his own ID. As long as he didn't maintain a no. in his respective FF profile, they would have nothing to check his ID no. against, if they even chose to bother at all. Plus, he could easily hold more than one passport, etc., etc. i.e. an inefficient task probably not high on the list of things an agent is told to keep in check.

Also, as previously posted on this thread, unlike those that have only been able to offer their meager suppositions, my personal experience and the airlines' past precedent shows that they could give a rat's *ss who's number you use just as long as its the same name and the computer will accept it.

If they don't care, why should you? Let alone lose sleep. Talk about making a mtn out of a molehill.

I'm with ranles, PremEx, QuietLion, cactuspete, doc, Beckles, and Soonerman on this one.

And we've been round this track before; different venue, but same ethical lack:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005916.html

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by duxfan:
The consensus is that they do not. Nor do I volunteer any additional information when travelling internationally. You (like me) may have been told that it is mandatory to collect contact data. It is not. I don't know where the info goes, nor do I know who has access to it, so I decline to provide it.
</font>

Why wouldn't you provide contact information? When I travel, I love it when AA gives me a call to let me know my flight is canceled or there is some other problem. Getting rerouted the night before a flight when there's a problem has worked out a lot better for me than showing up at the airport and finding out you're stranded or you'll be waiting at the airport for a few hours to get put on another flight. It may not have happened to you yet, but it will happen eventually. Of course, it's your choice to do what you want, but I haven't been getting any telemarketing calls since AA has my contact information. In fact, I'd bet they have some privacy policy against doing that, which would get them in a lot of trouble for sharing the information. You can also write the airlines (or any other company) a letter and tell them they are not authorized to share your information or contact you for marketing purposes.


On another note, FYI here's what all airlines flying to the US are required to provide for pax and crew, according to the TSA:

SEC. 12. PASSENGER MANIFESTS.

Section 44909 is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(c) FLIGHTS IN FOREIGN AIR TRANSPORTATION TO THE UNITED STATES-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 60 days after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Under Secretary of Transportation for Security shall require each air carrier and foreign air carrier operating a passenger flight in foreign air transportation to the United States to provide to the Under Secretary by electronic transmission a passenger and crew manifest containing the information specified in subsection (b).

`(2) INFORMATION- A passenger and crew manifest for a flight required under paragraph (1) shall contain the following information:

`(A) The full name of each passenger and crew member.

`(B) The date of birth and citizenship of each passenger and crew member.

`(C) The sex of each passenger and crew member.

`(D) The passport number and country of issuance of each passenger and crew member if required for travel.

`(E) The United States visa number or resident alien card number of each passenger and crew member, as applicable.

`(F) The passenger name record of each passenger .

`(G) Such other information as the Under Secretary, by regulation, determines is reasonably necessary to ensure aviation safety.

d

If they indeed don't care, then I would think that that overrides their rules.

How about this angle - having your father fly with your elite benefits is detrimental to the rest of us.

If you achieve elite status, every time your father flies and uses that status there's the risk that another TRUE elite is going to be harmed in the process. The real elite may not get to fly in FC because your father was upgraded ahead of him or her. The real elite may not get on a standby flight because your father's phoney status put him ahead on the list. Meanwhile real elites would have to wait behind your father in the first class checkin line and at boarding during the elite preboarding.

Those of us who earned the status the old fashioned way, personally flying the amount required by the airlines, would be getting upstaged by your father (or you and your father if both of you were responsible for achieving a status level that you wouldn't have gotten by yourself).

So, is that fair to the rest of us? Personally, I like flying FC. Using electronic upgrades makes my flights more comfortable and since I have such good sucess in getting upgrades I'm more likely to fly. If I don't get upgrades as often as I do now, I'll probably decrease the amount of discretionary travel I do.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, you father alone probably won't upset the balance of the FF system. But, don't think that individuals like us FTers won't be hurt in the process. Each time your father sits in a full first class cabin with an elite upgrade, there's probably a true elite sitting in coach who wanted that seat.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cblaisd:
I'm with ranles, PremEx, QuietLion, cactuspete, doc, Beckles, and Soonerman on this one.

And we've been round this track before; different venue, but same ethical lack:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005916.html</font>

Same ethical lack?

Let's see, comparatively small company, who isn't hurting anyone, just tries to run a little promo and ends up getting taken to the cleaners by anyone who picks up on the loophole and chooses to blind themselves to the fact that their greediness will most probably contribute to the major hit this company will suffer.

Compare this to a big airline company that, as part of its business plan, figures out ways to perpetrate fraud on, and steal from, its customers, on a daily basis, hourly if possible, and it does this, while beknownst to them, a few people out there with the same name are combining miles for an amount of free flights that is less than the big airline company complimentary upgrades in a day. The big company isn't stupid and, as such, know of the loophole that exists but, perhaps to ease their guilty collective consious, or for a multitude of reasons, they have set a precendent that, in effect, announces to its agents, its customers, to all, that it's OKAY to use whatever number you want as long as the name matches.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
If you achieve elite status, every time your father flies and uses that status there's the risk that another TRUE elite is going to be harmed in the process. The real elite may not get to fly in FC because your father was upgraded ahead of him or her.</font>

And, what do you have to say about the elite in front of you that achieved status by challenges, by status comping from another airline, from comps from having a certain AM EX card, shall I go on? What about all these other people that aren't "TRUE" elites?

I think all you B&Ws need to just give it up.

Cblaisd PremEx Quietlion Beckles. . . . .

If you see a very cheap airfare to Europe and you know its a mistake, do you not buy it?

The gate agent forgets to collect your VIP certificate, do you turn it in?

You book a hotel online and it comes back with a 99cent rate, do you confirm the reservation?

You fly more segments then you have to so you can get more miles even though some airlines do not allow this in their rules?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Cblaisd PremEx Quietlion Beckles. . . . .

If you see a very cheap airfare to Europe and you know its a mistake, do you not buy it?

The gate agent forgets to collect your VIP certificate, do you turn it in?

You book a hotel online and it comes back with a 99cent rate, do you confirm the reservation?

You fly more segments then you have to so you can get more miles even though some airlines do not allow this in their rules?</font>

Well, if I correctly take your implication that one would be a chump not to do any of the above, count me as a chump. I play by the rules, but optimize within the rules. I thought that was the whole idea of this forum.

I do not book fares or rates that I know or strongly suspect are mistakes, although I do take advantage of good deals which are offered--don't need the possible hassle. If someone forgets to collect my certificate, I DO volunteer it. My airline of choice, American, has no rules I'm aware of that require one to always seek out non-stop flights instead of legal connections.

There's no reason to lie or cheat in order to enjoy frequent flyer benefits. In fact, I think the whole game would become rather dreary and depressing if that's how one played it. After all, we're not a den of theives, are we?

The general lack of ethics exhibited by some on this thread is appalling. Have some accountability! Ethics has nothing to do with the size of the company on the other side of the transaction, or whether you can get awway with breaking the rules. In my book, there are no degrees of honesty - either you are or you aren't.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
The general lack of ethics exhibited by some on this thread is appalling. Have some accountability! Ethics has nothing to do with the size of the company on the other side of the transaction, or whether you can get awway with breaking the rules. In my book, there are no degrees of honesty - either you are or you aren't.</font>

Hello? Again, if, by their actions and precendents, an entity saids that something is okay, then why on earth would you put someone down for going along with such a precedent?

None of this is for others to judge, for others to use as a tool (along with their handy dandy pop-up soapbox) to feel ethically superior, or whatever (I'm not a psychiatrist), it is for the airline to say, and, one more time, through their actions and precedents, they say its O-K-A-Y.

If anyone has any EXPERIENCE, has actually had an airline agent say more than, basically, "just tell me which number you want to use," which has been my personal factual EXPERIENCE, then I would love to read it here and will accept it that the airline is not pushing this unpublished benefit, if you will, of having the same name.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PremEx:
The original poster is asking the wrong people "should I try?" IMHO.

There is only one other party to your contract/relationship that would be concerned or involved in this, and that is your airline.

Ask them what they think about it.

What you do after you get their response will determin if your actions are ethical or not.

I don't have to ask my airline. The answer to your question is clearly spelled out in the terms and conditions of membership that I have agreed to by participating in their frequent flyer program.</font>



[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-14-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Cblaisd PremEx Quietlion Beckles. . . . .

If you see a very cheap airfare to Europe and you know its a mistake, do you not buy it?

The gate agent forgets to collect your VIP certificate, do you turn it in?

You book a hotel online and it comes back with a 99cent rate, do you confirm the reservation?

You fly more segments then you have to so you can get more miles even though some airlines do not allow this in their rules?</font>

None of those examples are fraud, unlike the hypothetical scenario originally offered in this thread.

The airlines can PUBLISH all they want and SAY all they want, but what constitutes what they allow is their actions, its called, all together now, setting a precedent.

How does one get to elite if reading the published rules? Answer: by flying a certain number of miles.

What is the precedent? Allowing unpublished challenges, comps, etc.

ONE MORE TIME, show me precedents, facts, actions.

Like if you were going to Court. In fact, I could just see a judge who, instead of given facts and set precedents, has someone before him that is totally, selfishly, unconcerned with wasting his and the Court's time, someone who wants desperately to be right, but given his arsenal, can only offer clouding debates and off-topic righteousness ... not a pretty picture.

My personal EXPERIENCE, the airline's PRECEDENT, dictates that the airline allow those with the same name to just pick a number - they could care less.

AGAIN, anyone with any other EXPERIENCE, feel free to pipe up and you'll deserve some attention, otherwise, unless you're paying the reader by the hour, its just a waste of time to read about how ethic you are (I think thou dost protest too much) or how desperately you feel the need to be right (I think its called using the reader instead of paying a psychiatrist).

[This message has been edited by lisamcgu (edited 02-14-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
And, what do you have to say about the elite in front of you that achieved status by challenges, by status comping from another airline, from comps from having a certain AM EX card, shall I go on? What about all these other people that aren't "TRUE" elites?</font>

People who achieved their status through comps, challenges, AmEx promos, etc., are real elites. They played by the rules. (The only exception here is the people who achieve status once then use it to switch from airline to airline each year, getting a new comp at each airline. This is being fraudulent.)

I can't complain when people play by the rules, but I can complain when people's fraudulent activity causes harm to me. If it's OK for this guy's father to use his status, then it's OK for me to jump from airline to airline getting comped for free at each one, right?

I have AA Plat status. If I don't requalify, I'll just get UA to comp me to their same level in 2003. Then I won't qualify for anyhthing with UA, I'll just get CO to comp me for 2004 based on my UA status. Then I'll get DL to comp me in 2005, US in 2006, then back to AA in 2007. It's fair for me to take your FC upgrades and make you wait behind me in line, right?

Anyone remember arya alliance supposedly doing this and people being upset?


The other point I'd like to address is this "airlines screw over pax as much as possible." While this may be your experience, it certainly hasn't been mine. The AAdvantage elite program has been really good to me.

And finally, lisamcgu the precedent that you make reference to is one agent. He or she not following the rules isn't exactly a precedent. Just because I run a red light it doesn't mean that everyone behind me should do the same.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
ONE MORE TIME, show me precedents, facts, actions.</font>

Just for kicks, I called Delta. Guess what? In fact, it is against the rules.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">... someone before him that is totally, selfishly, unconcerned with wasting his and the Court's time, someone who wants desperately to be right, but given his arsenal, can only offer clouding debates and off-topic righteousness ... not a pretty picture.
...
AGAIN, anyone with any other EXPERIENCE, feel free to pipe up and you'll deserve some attention, otherwise, unless you're paying the reader by the hour, its just a waste of time to read about how ethic you are (I think thou dost protest too much) or how desperately you feel the need to be right (I think its called using the reader instead of paying a psychiatrist).</font>

Now there is a novel personal attack!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
... At the same time, I'm not sure of how serious an offense it is. I booked a flight for my father once (different middle initials only). I had given my FF No. in advance, but I specifically told the phone agent that, despite the similar names, this was my dad, and there was NO REASON that the FF No. should have been applied to the reservation. Of course, I got 500 miles, called the airline to inform them, and they said "don't worry about it." ...
</font>

This example goes along with my personal factual EXPERIENCE that they just don't care and even offer to let you pick which ff acct no. you want to use.

So far, it’s 2 to 0.

AGAIN, does anyone out there have any contradictory EXPERIENCE that would belie this PRECEDENT, something that the airline knowingly set when they let their actions, and that of their agents, take precedence over what was presented as thought?

lisamcgu, I completely agree with you.

For the moralists on this board, how many of you pay taxes on your award tickets? Lets say you get a free trip in FC--that's a pretty pricy ticket. Also, if you received the award as a result of your business travel, isn't it really the property of your employer? Shouldn't you use the award ticket to offset your employer's transportation costs. If you work for say Coca Cola, aren't you just making the cost of a Coke go up for the rest of us, or depriving the stockholders of their property?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
Now there is a novel personal attack! </font>

ha, ha ...

cactuspete, I have to laugh at how quickly you jumped into assuming it was you who so fit the mold.

Please don't take it so personally. Actually, I geared my comments toward all who seem to have a pop up soapbox but little else to back up their debate.

Every now and then I have had a poster who reasonably and correctly countered my post, and I LOVE IT!

I must have respect (and rejoice) as it is so rare to find someone who correctly counters by actually staying on topic, and with facts and a reasonable debate. In a debate, to go off topic in a feeble attempt to be right is not only obvious, its too easy. I find such posters, actually, quite common and boring.

Of course, that's just MHO.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:


For the moralists on this board, how many of you pay taxes on your award tickets? Lets say you get a free trip in FC--that's a pretty pricy ticket. Also, if you received the award as a result of your business travel, isn't it really the property of your employer? Shouldn't you use the award ticket to offset your employer's transportation costs.</font>

If the law requires tax to be paid on award tickets, the airlines charge it. Are you suggesting that pax and the airlines are intentionally evading taxes? I somehow doubt the airlines would risk being brought up on charges of tax evasion, but if you have some evidence that they're doing it, I'm sure the government would be pretty interested in getting their hands on it.

For corporate travel, the company's travel policy usually dictates who keeps the miles. Most companies allow their employees to keep the miles earned on business trips as compensation for having to travel, and thus losing out on personal time. If it's in the company's travel policy and you follow the rules, there's no problem. If you're breaking the company's rules, you risk being fired or sued.


I'm not even so concerned with the morals or ethics, I'm more concerned with myself. I work to attain frequent flyer elite status because it affords me certain privileges. I don't want to see them taken away by people who break the rules.

Here's another example - air rage is on the rise. A lot of people become air ragers after drinking, so lawmakers in the US and UK are looking at banning alcohol on flights. Is that fair to the majority of travelers who drink on flights but don't cause trouble? How about DWIs? Because some people break the rules and drive drunk, should we ban alcohol entirely?

My point is that people breaking the rules causes harm to others who act within them.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
ha, ha ...

cactuspete, I have to laugh at how quickly you jumped into assuming it was you who so fit the mold.</font>

And whatever makes you think that I was referring to myself??? I never indicated that I was defending myself, only pointing out your inappropriate post. Apparently, however, I was the intended target.

You have clearly violated several of the Terms and Conditions of FlyerTalk: no personal attacks and no condoning of illegal activities. But I suppose that you will somehow try to justify those indiscretions, as well.


(edited for UBB code)


[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-14-2002).]

I was referring to income tax, not sales tax. You generally must self-report income tax. Sec. 61 of the U.S. internal revenue code requires you to include the value of FF benefits in your taxable income. The IRS generally ignores this because the value is small, but you are required to include the value in your taxes. A pair of FC tix overseas has such a high retail value that the taxes would be at least several hundred dollars.

Beckles, your distinction is not a good one. Its not fruad if you don't make a statement. You could arrange your affairs to take advantage of an airline mistake of assuming you had status because you had the same name without making any affirmative statement. This is to me the same as taking advantage of a pricing error.

Its surprising to find so many moralists on the sight that touted the scam of how to fly the Concorde by buying magazines.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
Beckles, your distinction is not a good one. Its not fruad if you don't make a statement. You could arrange your affairs to take advantage of an airline mistake of assuming you had status because you had the same name without making any affirmative statement. This is to me the same as taking advantage of a pricing error.</font>

At one point or another you would be asked to provide your frequent flyer number. There's no way to get FF benefits without it. By providing someone else's FF number, you're defrauding the airline into thinking you're someone you aren't. They ask for your FF number, you provide a false one - that's the statement, that's the fraudulent misrepresentation.

(edited to add) Furthermore, some of the data used for the CAPPS system comes from your frequent flyer profile. By traveling on someone else's FF number, you're in effect traveling under a false name, and hence violating national security.

d

[This message has been edited by Doppy (edited 02-14-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
Sec. 61 of the U.S. internal revenue code requires you to include the value of FF benefits in your taxable income. The IRS generally ignores this because the value is small, but you are required to include the value in your taxes. A pair of FC tix overseas has such a high retail value that the taxes would be at least several hundred dollars.</font>

I have never heard anyone say this, and I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm this. I pay for my FF miles in the value of the tickets I buy, and I buy those tickets with dollars that have been taxed, so I don't see how they could be taxable. This may be a valid argument for miles earned on business travel I suppose since you didn't pay for them with taxed dollars.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Beckles, your distinction is not a good one. Its not fruad if you don't make a statement. You could arrange your affairs to take advantage of an airline mistake of assuming you had status because you had the same name without making any affirmative statement. This is to me the same as taking advantage of a pricing error.</font>

As pointed out, providing an FF number is a statement that you are that person. How could it not be considered such a statement?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Its surprising to find so many moralists on the sight that touted the scam of how to fly the Concorde by buying magazines.</font>

Huh? That was a promotion offered by two different companies, I don't understand what your point is here, what's wrong with using a promotion that was offered? (I only bought $70 in magazines myself and I fail to see anything wrong with it).

Here's what can happen when someone breaks the rule.

http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/ap_lowell02142002.htm

Re whether or not ff awards are taxable (ie, must one declare them as income on a personal income statement), i have a friend who's a tax attorney, who says that altho the IRS has not enforced this because of the administrative hassles, the answer is yes if your award comes from miles accrued by tickets purchased by somebody else (ie, your employer), but not if the award comes from tickets purchased by you; the distinction is that when you bought the tickets which led to the award, the ff miles were part of the bargained for exchange between you and the airline (you're simply getting a benefit you paid for); however, when your employer pays for the ticket and you get the miles, you're getting a benefit with financial value for which you haven't paid for; therefore, it's essentially part of your income; i'm not sure what happens for awards obtained w/ a mix of employer and self paid tickets, but perhaps the award would partially taxed??? in any event, as noted above, so far the IRS has figured that there's no good way to enforce this, so they haven't; but that's not to say they won't in the future .... thx to everyone for your posts; i've enjoyed reading them, altho at the moment i've decided nothing (and, so far, i've never tried it); guess the real moment of truth will come the next time Dad flies (which is at least 8 months away); actually i think the worst thing about trying this for me would be embarassing my Dad if an agent figured it out; i'd hate that worse than losing status/having my account closed ... tls

It doesn't make any sense to tax the retail value of a FF award ticket. Many award tickets are issued to people who wouldn't have otherwise taken the trip (e.g., First Class to Europe for which you would never pay the fare).

You could say the value (to you) of the award ticket is the revenue the airline loses by not selling the seat you sit in. But airlines charge higher fares for the remaining seats, so it's a wash. An income tax on award ticket values is not only an administrative hassle, it's a tax on practically zero.


My opinion of using someone else's FF account (on purpose, not accidentally as Tango noted) -- it is unethical. It is against the airline's rules (except family members in BA), and you are taking an upgrade from another elite passenger when First checks in full. It's a selfish thing to do.

If you want more miles, instead of stealing them, visit the Mileage Run forum.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
It doesn't make any sense to tax the retail value of a FF award ticket. </font>

What about if you are totally broke and heavily in debt and declare bankruptcy? The IRS treats all the debt you walk away from as "income in forgiveness of debt." Thus, it is taxable as ordinary income.

Hello? I can't pay my dry cleaner so I surely can't pay you motherf@ckers. And the bankruptcy procedure is designed to make sure you are broke (depending on your particular state's definition), so how much sense does that make?

Using the phrase "makes sense" in conjunction with taxation does not "make sense." The tax laws are based on the revenue needs of the government and the relative political clout of the members of Congress. All I can do about this is apologize.

I am a former IRS revenue agent, for which I will probably rot in H-E-double hockey stick, but I did quit after 2 years and get a real job that provided added value to society.

JD

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JoeDoakes:

What about if you are totally broke and heavily in debt and declare bankruptcy? The IRS treats all the debt you walk away from as "income in forgiveness of debt." Thus, it is taxable as ordinary income.

Hello? I can't pay my dry cleaner so I surely can't pay you motherf@ckers. And the bankruptcy procedure is designed to make sure you are broke (depending on your particular state's definition), so how much sense does that make?

</font>

Makes sense to me. If you owed $10,000, declare bankruptcy, and now owe 0, it's equivalent to getting $10,000 and paying off the debt (in terms of taxes, not the bankruptcy court).

How is that related to taxation of FF awards? Wiping out $10,000 of debt costs someone else $10,000. A FF award ticket doesn't cost anyone anything.

I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with the moralists on this. Programs should be used as they are intended. If you want to share points with your spouse, take your business to Hilton as they have made a business decision to allow combining spousal accounts, but don’t exploit having a similar name to your husband/wife.

Similarly, I think that it’s one thing on switch from Sprint to MCI because MCI “bought” your business by offering more miles per dollar, but it’s totally another thing to switch every month, or to move the same $50,000 from brokerage to brokerage, simply for a pay day. And then, invariably, when after the 17th time one is finally denied an enrollment bonus, responding by screaming bloody murder about being unfairly gazumped by the evil company.

In my business we have a name for people who take shortcuts: “inmates”

In the final analysis, if you’re gonna steal, for God’s sake, steal big. At least you will have sold your soul for a villa in the south of France as opposed to a measly upgrade from Cleveland to Miami.

It never ceases to amaze me. Now we have a number of FTers, including a TalkBoard member, trying to justify taking advantage of a mistake made by Hilton:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum57/HTML/003576.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum122/HTML/001418.html


[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-19-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
And whatever makes you think that I was referring to myself???</font>

Uh ... because you called it a personal attack and you wrote the post ...?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
[B]...[URL=http://www.flyertalk.com/for... [B]</font>

One more thing Mr. Always Ethical - I notice you seem very concerned about how others actions affect you while you don't seem to mind how your actions impact others ... do you have an extra wide computer screen or something?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
One more thing Mr. Always Ethical...</font>

Thank you. That is one of the nicest compliments anyone can receive. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I notice you seem very concerned about how others actions affect you while you don't seem to mind how your actions impact others ... do you have an extra wide computer screen or something?</font>

No, just more evidence of your warped sense of "ethics". Clearly, a simple UBB coding error. Sorry to inconvenience you. The link has been corrected. You may now go check it out and, perhaps, learn something. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ideasmilie.gif

Doppy, I was making a point about ethics, not taxes. The IRS has for a long time ignored the value of FF miles, but technically the value is income when realized.

I don't think your analogy to having paid for the ticket in the first place is the best one. For example, you can buy a stock or a CD with after-tax dollars but the dividends are subject to a whole new income tax.

Conceptually, you realize income that is required to be taxed under Sectino 61. For political and logistical reasons, the IRS ignores this.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
Doppy, I was making a point about ethics, not taxes. The IRS has for a long time ignored the value of FF miles, but technically the value is income when realized.

I don't think your analogy to having paid for the ticket in the first place is the best one. For example, you can buy a stock or a CD with after-tax dollars but the dividends are subject to a whole new income tax.</font>

Not sure if that's directed at me, since I haven't made any comments about the income tax thing.

I'm certainly not a tax expert, but I would expect that you'd only have to claim FF benefits as income if you earned them for tickets you didn't pay for (i.e. your company bought the tickets and let you keep the miles, which would make the miles part of your compensation package).

If I pay for a ticket for personal travel, the miles I get are part of the purchase price. It's similar to using a coupon at the grocery store; the discount you receive from the coupon doesn't count as income per the IRS, as far as I know. Anyway, I understand your point, and it isn't about taxes.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
No, just more evidence of your warped sense of "ethics". Clearly, a simple UBB coding error. Sorry to inconvenience you. The link has been corrected. You may now go check it out and, perhaps, learn something. </font>

Once again ... huh?

What does ethics have to do with you accidently inputing the link twice, forcing everyone to have to arrow over to completely read the posts?

Anyway, I accept your apology.

Thanks for fixing your error.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
What does ethics have to do with you accidently inputing the link twice, forcing everyone to have to arrow over to completely read the posts?</font>

Yes, that was exactly the question that I had when you posted the following:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">One more thing Mr. Always Ethical -I notice you seem very concerned about how others actions affect you while you don't seem to mind how your actions impact others ... do you have an extra wide computer screen or something? </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
Sec. 61 of the U.S. internal revenue code requires you to include the value of FF benefits in your taxable income. The IRS generally ignores this because the value is small, but you are required to include the value in your taxes. </font>

See post by Russ21Atl in this thread: IRS won't tax frequent flier miles earned while making business trips (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum101/HTML/004340.html).

A moral dilema for comment:

I used this example on another thread. There is a stop sign by my house, a residential area. Late at night many cars blow right through the intersection without stopping. A car was traveling on the cross street at 11 PM without lights on. A car that normally barrels through the intersection ran right into the car without lights.

The stop sign runner felt it wasn't his fault, if the other car had lights on, of course he would've stopped at the stop sign. The driver without lights said the accident was the other guy's fault - laws are not written for when we want to obey them.

I know how the trial ended, but who was at fault?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Thumper:
The stop sign runner felt it wasn't his fault, if the other car had lights on, of course he would've stopped at the stop sign. The driver without lights said the accident was the other guy's fault - laws are not written for when we want to obey them.</font>

Were the other driver's lights intentionally off, or accidentally?

If it wasn't intentional, I'd say the driver who went through the stop light is 100% at fault. He broke the law intentionally, causing the accident.

If the other driver had his lights off intentionally, then the blame should be split more like 75% the guy who blew through the stop sign, 25% the guy with his lights off.

d

Eugene, that story is consistent with my post above. The news in that story is that the IRS is formalizing what had been an informal policy of ignoring the income tax liability of frequent flier miles.

I brought up the tax issue becuase it seems to me (someone without elite status) that there are an awful lot of folks on this thread using moral arguments to convince this guy not to do this when what really motivates them is they want to preserve elite benefits for themselves. I doubted their professed morality and inquired whether they were paying income taxes on their FF benefits.

Interesting case Thumper. I hope you tell us the outcome. I would guess that the driver running the stop sign is 100% at fault, regardless of the other drivers lights being off knowingly or not. I don't know what state this happened in, but I believe in my state (Delaware) there is a law that states you must have your headlights on 30 minutes before dusk to 30 minutes after dawn, so the other driver should get a ticket also.

------------------
AA, Onepass, Skymiles, Hhonors, Starwood

The gentleman who drove without his headlights was ticketed for doing so.

However: The court ruled that while the car with no lights was a contributing factor in the accident, the stop sign runner was 100% at fault here in Connecticut. Another person breaking the law is not a compelling reason for you to do the same.

editorial:
Many people choose to obey laws (and rules)when they want to. When we break laws and rules and there is no apparent victim, there seems to be no wrongness.

Ultimately we get caught. Since we have become blind to the wrongness, we look for another reason why repeated behavior without punishment is suddenly punished. As we cannot point to ourselves as being at fault, we look for mitigating circumstances. It was the other guys fault, etc.

I could use numerous examples, some that were cited in this thread. What if there really is global warming? What if fossil fuels really are finite? What if mass cheating on FF miles really does reduce the number of seats available for others? And so on... One poster has suggested that since we cannot definitively point to a loss of FF benefits (there is no clear victim) then it is, in fact OK to cheat.

I disagree. You never know when a car will come along with no headlights.....

thanks for listening!

Thumper

Thumper, that is one of the most eloquent arguments I have read in a long time.

However, it fails to address the root cause. In my opinino, the root cause is that the airline "cheated" first by touting award travel that often is not available. They "offer" upgrades for 10K miles, but if you are not elite or didn't pay for an exorbitant fare, what chance do you have? They initially were honest enough to publish blackout dates, but this misleadingly implied that awards were available at other times (sometime available, sometimes not).

I am not saying that two wrongs make a right, but the passenger who is trying to "cheat" the airline is no more wrong than the airlines that have cheated passengers.

Your story and the judge's Solomonic ability to determine who was more wrong misses the point for that reason.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
I am not saying that two wrongs make a right, but the passenger who is trying to "cheat" the airline is no more wrong than the airlines that have cheated passengers.</font>

But what about those of us who aren't cheating anyone? I'm not cheating the airline, I don't think the airline is cheating me.

But I am getting cheated by the original poster's father, because he's breaking the rules and sitting in the first class seat I would have gotten if he didn't cheat. Is it OK for him to cheat me?

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ranles:
Seems like each of us has a bit of a difference about what is right and what it wrong.

The original poster admits that it is wrong. He only asks if cheating can be done without being caught.

For those who "accomplish theft" without being caught, they will find a day of when these things will be accounted for. This accounting will not be done with our definitions of what are wrongs and what are "not wrongs, because..." .

WE all would be better off if everone tried to behave in a way that is consistent with the law, contracts we enter and relationships we make.

Alas there are always those that don't pay their bills, cross on the red, steal from others, speed on purpose, drive drunk, beat their children, etc. Each has an excuse why their travesty is ok.

This reminds me of the child who earned c's and d's but the parents were glad that "at least the child is not taking drugs"

I would hope we all hope to do better. At least we should be ashamed to openly seek abettors to our crime.</font>


What a bleak and boring world we would have if everybody played by the stated rules.

I say go ahead and let your father use the account. Screw the moral and ethical crap. Live it up, we all need a vice or some sort or we are doomed to banality. Just be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

LemonThrower,
Thank you for the kind words! We seem to be going through a rash of intelligent debates here at FT with no flamethrowers. I love it!

Next ethical dilema. I love my job, though it has had it's ups and downs. When hired I was told my earning potential was "open ended". (I head a 3 company division). I make a decent living, but unfortunately it's not all I want it to be, although they assured me it would be.

Recently we had some layoffs. There is a great laptop laying around that no one knows exists, and probably won't know that it ever existed. My son could really use it at school, and besides, at least one school of thought says that if I don't take it, someone else will.

So - do I take it? Chances are very good I'll never get caught, it's for a good cause, and the company never really paid me like they suggested they might.

Or do you think somewhere theres a car without headlights with my name on it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Thumper:
LemonThrower,
Thank you for the kind words! We seem to be going through a rash of intelligent debates here at FT with no flamethrowers. I love it!

Next ethical dilema. I love my job, though it has had it's ups and downs. When hired I was told my earning potential was "open ended". (I head a 3 company division). I make a decent living, but unfortunately it's not all I want it to be, although they assured me it would be.

Recently we had some layoffs. There is a great laptop laying around that no one knows exists, and probably won't know that it ever existed. My son could really use it at school, and besides, at least one school of thought says that if I don't take it, someone else will.

So - do I take it? Chances are very good I'll never get caught, it's for a good cause, and the company never really paid me like they suggested they might.

Or do you think somewhere theres a car without headlights with my name on it?</font>
Your example although ethical in nature, is based more on a risk reward scenario. I mean the risk is far greater than the reward in a situation of employee pilfering than a case of someone illicitly using frequent flyer miles. The original poster wasn't asking about ethics, he was asking about the risk of getting caught.

The upside of no headlights is that they never see you coming or going. Therefore it harder for the victim to make a positive ID.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jwalkabout:
I say go ahead and let your father use the account. Screw the moral and ethical crap. Live it up, we all need a vice or some sort or we are doomed to banality. Just be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. </font>

So if you get stuck in coach on some longhauls or can't fly standby on a few flights because of people doing this, you wouldn't be upset that you were cheated by someone who didn't play by the rules?

Or if your car gets smashed by someone who doesn't want to make a complete stop at a stop sign, it's OK, because getting your new car totaled makes life interesting?

Or if your child gets killed by a drunk driver, it's OK, because tragic deaths really make us appreciate the time we have, right?

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
So if you get stuck in coach on some longhauls or can't fly standby on a few flights because of people doing this, you wouldn't be upset that you were cheated by someone who didn't play by the rules? d</font>

I would normally be ignorant as to who was upgraded and why so at that point and time in the greater scheme of things it wouldn't really matter.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Or if your car gets smashed by someone who doesn't want to make a complete stop at a stop sign, it's OK, because getting your new car totaled makes life interesting? d[/B]</font>
Yeah, it actually would. Gotta take the good with the bad.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Or if your child gets killed by a drunk driver, it's OK, because tragic deaths really make us appreciate the time we have, right?
d[/B]</font>
Very true. Close tragic deaths do make us appreciate life more.

jwalkabout-

Well, that's great for you, but who gave you the power to decide my fate for me?

The biggest problem in a free society is that there are always people who will break the rules. It benefits them but harms others.

I believe in us having as much freedom as possible, but it only works if we act responsbily. Responsible behavior in a free society means that one person shouldn't usurp the freedom of another.

You may not mind it when other people take your freedom away, but I do; and you have no right to do so.

Each time someone breaks the rules the innocent are the ones who get screwed. The terrorists on 9/11 broke the rules, and the fallout from that is obvious.

The guy running the stop sign broke the rules and caused damage to someone else's car.

Drunk drivers cause $110 million dollars in property damage EACH DAY, not to mention the number of people they kill or seriously injure.

In each of those cases above, someone is breaking the rules and taking away someone else's freedom. It's not fair to the innocent people. If you feel the need to impose yourself on others, move to a desert island and start your own country. If you want to live in a free society, try to act responsibly and not intentionally cause harm to others.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">So - do I take it? Chances are very good I'll never get caught, it's for a good cause, and the company never really paid me like they suggested they might.</font>

"Caught" already suggests there's something wrong with it. The fact that you are unhappy with the way your job has turned out, and the possible misrepresentation by your employers of your career opportunities (or your own misjudgement of your potential with this company) do not justify your stealing from your employers ("caught" --&gt; wrong --&gt; stealing). You should have discussed this with them long before you got to the point where you felt that stealing might somehow be justified.

I am assuming this is a hypothetical ethical situation for you, Thumper - from your posts that I have read, you somehow don't seem like the type that would actually do this.

I'd put my old man up in first class and feel pretty darned good about knowing I made his day.

OFF TOPIC&gt;&gt;&gt;One time from Vegas to Denver I was travelling w/ my dad. I had a first class seat. I put him up front instead of me and he absolutely loved it...now that made a son feel good.

Wow. I just finished reading the other three pages of posts here...quite the controversy.

I predict we will see a spike in the number of frequent flyers naming their children after themselves!

I feel the "chump" for not naming my sons after me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
But perhaps I can convince the children to name the grandsons after me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

I wish I'd thought of it - my wife and I have the same first and last names - but the FF statements have gender specific salutations ("Mr." and "Mrs."). The trick would be to both use "Dr." or "Rev." or "Rabbi". Except one then would wonder what to do in an on-board medical or religious emergency - would I have to reveal the truth or claim a Ph.D. or lapsed pulpit? Actually the only concern one should have is what the airline can do if they catch you. Theoretically they could revoke all miles and ban you from their flights. Would they?

By traveling with someone else's FF account, you're basically traveling under a false name, as some of the data used for CAPPS comes from your profile.

Traveling under a false name would probably get you in trouble with the feds if they found out about it.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by xTWAnowAAer:
As a frequent traveler to Israel I have asked many times not to have my passport stamped and it doesn't raise any red flags.
They know it can be a reason to be searched and questioned in other countries.</font>

Hmmm ... I have more than 20 entry/exit stamps in my US passport from Israel and have never been searched or questioned in excess of what is typical.


------------------
Mark DL PM/HH GD

With everything........if you plan to break rules better not tell everyone on a worldwide chat - there is always a nark somewhere and Ive heard of many FF accounts being audited and suspended for fraud.

Sorry I haven't responded, I actually forgot about this thread.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
[B]jwalkabout-

Well, that's great for you, but who gave you the power to decide my fate for me? </font>

I don't have any power to decide your fate unless you give it to me.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The biggest problem in a free society is that there are always people who will break the rules. It benefits them but harms others.
</font>

Such is the nature of man.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I believe in us having as much freedom as possible, but it only works if we act responsbily. Responsible behavior in a free society means that one person shouldn't usurp the freedom of another. </font>

Resonsibility is such a subjective action. What is responsible to you may be irresponsible to me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">You may not mind it when other people take your freedom away, but I do; and you have no right to do so. </font>

I am as free as I want to be yet many freedoms are given and taken from me whether I like it or not.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Each time someone breaks the rules the innocent are the ones who get screwed. The terrorists on 9/11 broke the rules, and the fallout from that is obvious. </font>

Innocence is a point of view.
Rules are meant to be interpreted,broken and revised according to those who rule, therefore they are not absolute.
Last time I checked terrorists don't follow their perceived enemies rules or laws.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The guy running the stop sign broke the rules and caused damage to someone else's car.</font>

He will be punished by society or he will get away with breaking a rule.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Drunk drivers cause $110 million dollars in property damage EACH DAY, not to mention the number of people they kill or seriously injure. </font>

Maybe we should go back to the days of prohibition and admit that alcohol is a drug and should be illegal like other drugs that alter the mind and cause unsocial behavior. Maybe we should make it a prescription drug dispensable by doctors. Either way we solve your drunk driving scenario and problem.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">In each of those cases above, someone is breaking the rules and taking away someone else's freedom. It's not fair to the innocent people. If you feel the need to impose yourself on others, move to a desert island and start your own country. If you want to live in a free society, try to act responsibly and not intentionally cause harm to others.</font>

Rules have been and will always be broken. Life isn't fair.
People who cause harm are not neccessarily doing it with the intent to harm.

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the State!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jwalkabout:
Life isn't fair.
People who cause harm are not neccessarily doing it with the intent to harm.

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the State!

</font>

Life isn't fair? That justifies doing whatever you want, regarless of how it impacts others? Sorry, I don't believe in that.

Intent? Drunk drivers probably don't intend to kill children, does that make their crime OK?

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state? How about, the less responsible the citizens, the more numerous the laws?

If we all made an effort to not be jerks, not break the rules, not take things from others that we're not entitled to (1) there'd be less laws and (2) we'd all probably be happier.

Do you not steal money from a bank because you're not entitled to it, or because you're afraid of being caught? From your posts, I'd expect that the latter is true for you.

Would (or do) you teach your children that it is OK to take things they're not entitled to? Let's say their teacher tells the children if they get an 'A' on the next exam, they'll get a cookie, as an incentive for the children to study harder. If your kid gets a C, would you tell him or her it's OK to take one of the cookies reserved for the students who got an A, even though one of the students who earned the A and the cookie wouldn't get a cookie, as he was supposed to?

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
[B
Would (or do) you teach your children that it is OK to take things they're not entitled to? Let's say their teacher tells the children if they get an 'A' on the next exam, they'll get a cookie, as an incentive for the children to study harder. If your kid gets a C, would you tell him or her it's OK to take one of the cookies reserved for the students who got an A, even though one of the students who earned the A and the cookie wouldn't get a cookie, as he was supposed to?

d[/B]</font>

I would tell them to do what they had to do to survive or get ahead.
Personally I don't believe in bribing children with sweets or toys to induce learning or good behavior.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jwalkabout:
I would tell them to do what they had to do to survive or get ahead.
Personally I don't believe in bribing children with sweets or toys to induce learning or good behavior.</font>

You don't believe in bribing children, but you would teach your children to "do what they had to do," which in this case would be to steal?

I think it's a little strange that you have a problem bribing children, but apparently don't think driving like a maniac, defrauding the airlines and taking things you're not entitled to is wrong.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Doppy: Well, that's great for you, but who gave you the power to decide my fate for me?

jwalkabout: I don't have any power to decide your fate unless you give it to me.</font>

By "I don't have any power..." do you mean you don't have any power to rob a bank because the tellers are behind bullet proof glass and you'd get caught, or do you mean that no one with the authority to do so has given you the power/right to take the bank's money?

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
By "I don't have any power..." do you mean you don't have any power to rob a bank because the tellers are behind bullet proof glass and you'd get caught, or do you mean that no one with the authority to do so has given you the power/right to take the bank's money?

d</font>


This was fun but I am going to end it here because you and I went nowhere really fast.

Cheers,

Jwalkabout

Re: Running a stop sign & hitting a no-lights car at night.
I remember discussing this when I was learning to drive. Later, in my one semester of law school I learned of contributory & comparative negligence.

SO: If I were a judge or juror I would rule that the stop-sign runner is at greater fault because by failing to stop, he could not see whoever was coming--lights or no, speeding or no. HOWEVER, if he had stopped properly, looked & listened, then pulled out & hit the unlit car, I'd rule for him because it's unreasonable to expect him to see said unlit car on a dark road at night despite his best efforts.

okay back to the subject
IF you read this 4 pages later its a VERY BAD idea to use a FF for 2 people these days when you call in and give it the res agnt the FIRST thing it does is pop up your acct AND your future reservations so the first time they see dad goin from one city and jr from anothere there gonna start askin whats up and then you are out

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by sunsetaz:
okay back to the subject
IF you read this 4 pages later its a VERY BAD idea to use a FF for 2 people these days when you call in and give it the res agnt the FIRST thing it does is pop up your acct AND your future reservations so the first time they see dad goin from one city and jr from anothere there gonna start askin whats up and then you are out </font>

But if this is the only problem, that simply means I need to be careful (which is easy since Dad doesn't fly much), not forego the plan altogether. tls

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ne14snow:
With everything........if you plan to break rules better not tell everyone on a worldwide chat - there is always a nark somewhere and Ive heard of many FF accounts being audited and suspended for fraud.</font>

Yes, its amazing that anyone could actually want the kind of "satisfaction" (personally, yuck) that being a narc may give them (again, yuck), but its true.

Certain FTers have come right out and stated that they would go out of their way to narc out anyone they found breaking airline rules. See this thread:

(http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006404.html)

Originally posted by PremEx2000, in the thread's lead post:
"If I were an accomplished hacker, I'd find out who the person is then notify my airline. Yes, I'm being a narc but rules are rules and, as I said before, when people break them (especially when they knowingly break them), they should pay the price."

Along with this, if one goes over to moremiles.org, an FT knockoff that was seemingly started by certain FTers who found the "rules" on FT not being enforced well enough for their taste, you will note that "their" rules state:

(http://www.moremiles.org/tos.html)

"WE MAY TAKE ACTION IF YOU ACT UNLAWFULLY:

13. MOREMILES reserves the right to investigate complaints or reported violations of our Statement of Use and to take any action we determine is appropriate including but not limited to reporting any suspected unlawful activity to law enforcement officials, regulators, or other third parties and disclosing any information necessary or appropriate to such persons or entities relating to your profiles, e-mail addresses, usage history, posted materials, IP addresses and traffic information."

Being that almost all of those who are registered and subscribe to these rules over at moremiles are FTers, and you may see them on these FT boards currently, this is just another reason to watch out when posting.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisamcgu:
Yes, its amazing that anyone could actually want the kind of "satisfaction" (personally, yuck) that being a narc may give them (again, yuck), but its true.</font>

I'm not planning on being a narc; however, I'd prefer that people not break the rules. I'm the one who's not going to get the FC seat, etc, when someone breaks the rules. It's not fair to those of us who act within the rules.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
I'm not planning on being a narc; however, I'd prefer that people not break the rules. I'm the one who's not going to get the FC seat, etc, when someone breaks the rules. It's not fair to those of us who act within the rules.</font>

Oh, Doppy, doppy, doppy ...

There are so many other ways someone else will take your FC seat. Why cause yourself stress by worrying about the very few that are going to take it by breaking the rules?

Its 2:30am and you pull up to a red light and you know this light stays red for a very long time. You look in all directions and there is nobody around--do you wait for the light to turn green?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by thelostshark:
But if this is the only problem, that simply means I need to be careful (which is easy since Dad doesn't fly much), not forego the plan altogether. tls</font>

Well if you want to risk losing your entire milage balance and ff status for a few more miles go ahead with todays computer systems its only a matter of time and if you dont think they watch for this you are in for a shock specially post 9,11

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sunsetaz

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Its 2:30am and you pull up to a red light and you know this light stays red for a very long time. You look in all directions and there is nobody around--do you wait for the light to turn green?</font>

After checking very thoroughly for the police, I run that light nearly every time. tls

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Its 2:30am and you pull up to a red light and you know this light stays red for a very long time. You look in all directions and there is nobody around--do you wait for the light to turn green?</font>

I probably wait (what's 30 seconds?), but who knows.

But it's a bad analogy, because under your example running that red light ("breaking the rules") does not adversely affect a third party.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Its 2:30am and you pull up to a red light and you know this light stays red for a very long time. You look in all directions and there is nobody around--do you wait for the light to turn green?</font>

If I know it always stays red a long time, then I know it isn't broken and will eventually turn green, right?

So, forget "breaking the rules" (pleeeease), I wouldn't want to take the chance that there is someone out there depending on me to wait for the light, someone I may not see, like a pedestrian, bicyclist, speeding motorcyclist, car with its lights off, etc.

I don't want the responsibility or bad karma of hitting someone - let alone, god forbid, killing them - instead I can wait a few minutes.

Sometimes shirking responsibility is a good thing.

I'd make a right hand turn, then an u-turn, and then another right hand turn.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kyklin:
I'd make a right hand turn, then an u-turn, and then another right hand turn.</font>

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Ok , recently Amex charged another client's flight to my account through Amex travel. Is this fraud ? Is it theft ? Or is it just a mistake http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Nigel

See also Grandfather, father, son. All have identical names. Will airlines know they're one? (25 Oct 02)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007737.html

Originally posted by Doppy:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">In each of those cases above, someone is breaking the rules and taking away someone else's freedom. It's not fair to the innocent people. If you feel the need to impose yourself on others, move to a desert island and start your own country. If you want to live in a free society, try to act responsibly and not intentionally cause harm to others.</font>

I named my first son, who was born on my Dad's 69th birthday, after his grandfather. I have never used [i]The FF namesake plan.

Usually the "rules" themselves take away at least some putative "freedom." In other circumstances, the harm caused by "breaking" rules occurs statistically rarely, or is very indirect or hard to demonstrate in any particular case.

One example could be the "fake elite" father taking "your" upgrade, or the drunk driving hypothetical. Another could be restrictive sodomy and divorce laws inspired by the view that conduct which weakens respect for the family or willingness to start or remain in one is inimical to the security children are entitled to in a supportive society. Or the "freedom to choose" abortion which reflects a lack of tolerance of the "unwanted children" among us and lack of responsibility for one's actions.

Some people make a distinction between [i]ethics and rules, with felony and misdemeanor laws falling into both categories.

At the Naval Academy, a midshipman will not lie, cheat, or steal. An honor offense is a quick way to expulsion.

On the other hand, breaking rules is often winked at, by the useage of the common expression at the Boat School, "You rate what you can get away with." Some famous wartime admirals were quite good in their day at sneaking out of their rooms after taps and going "over the wall" for a beer in town.

Central to that attitude, however, is a willingness to take the consequences, no matter what.

I venture to say that not a single one of us who drives has never exceeded the speed limit by 1 mile (or kilometer) per hour, or driven too slowly, or at least unintentionally broken some traffic "rule."

Yet the fact that no one is perfect does not excuse anyone from trying to act ethically at all times, and from contributing to an informed societal consensus through our political, personal, religious, entertainment, FlyerTalk, and other decisions on what that consensus should be.

As for me, when it comes to ethics, I'm a black and white kind of guy.

Paradoxically, trying to do what is right gives us more real freedom than when we become enslaved to vices, major or petty.

That's my 2¢ contribution to the debate.