Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs - SAA to ground B747-400 fleet

That's the end of First class then I guess :-( not seen any dates yet.

SAA to embark on airline restructuring plan (http://africa.reuters.com/country/ZA/news/usnL04778304.html)

main points -

The airliner said part of its fleet -- one owned and five leased B747-400 aircraft which are expensive to operate -- would be grounded.

SAA also announced that it would close the Paris route, which has been losing money, in October.

That's the end of First class then I guess :-( not seen any dates yet.

SAA to embark on airline restructuring plan (http://africa.reuters.com/country/ZA/news/usnL04778304.html)

main points -

The airliner said part of its fleet -- one owned and five leased B747-400 aircraft which are expensive to operate -- would be grounded.

SAA also announced that it would close the Paris route, which has been losing money, in October.

Sound like a logical move. Now that they won't expand they have spare capacity on 340's so getting rid of the more expensive 747-400's makes sense.

A pity about the Paris route. I found that one to have good award availability in C.

I'll miss that F cabin on the 747s. :(

I'll miss the extra legroom in upper deck economy section.

A pity about the Paris route. I found that one to have good award availability in C.Well, now we know why: it was losing money presumably through lack of demand!
I'll miss that F cabin on the 747s. :(Me too. *sniff*

I heard this on the main news tonight and was quite shocked. Apart from the sentimental/status value of dropping the 747's they are axing a 3rd of management staff. It seems they really mean business this time!

I heard this on the main news tonight and was quite shocked. Apart from the sentimental/status value of dropping the 747's they are axing a 3rd of management staff. It seems they really mean business this time!Is there a specific date already set for the demise of the 747s and thus implicitly First Class?

Well, now we know why: it was losing money presumably through lack of demand!
Me too. *sniff*


I would not be surprised if the CPT-FRA route goes seasonal in future. In the past days loads have been less than 100 PAXe - for a 340-600!

I would not be surprised if the CPT-FRA route goes seasonal in future. In the past days loads have been less than 100 PAXe - for a 340-600!But since they're going ahead with JNB-MUC they must be doing well in that market, surely?

duplicate, sorry

But since they're going ahead with JNB-MUC they must be doing well in that market, surely?

I would assume so. Flights from JNB-Germany do usually have very high loadfactors. CPT-Germany is another story, though, a very seasonal route with little business traffic.

I would assume so. Flights from JNB-Germany do usually have very high loadfactors. CPT-Germany is another story, though, a very seasonal route with little business traffic.D'oh! I missed the significance of CPT vs. JNB. :o

I hate when they can't make routes work ex CPT (and lord knows they've tried many over the years). That schlep up to JNB before we can get anywhere! The irony is that LHR is massively popular but they can't get any more slots there.

Is there a specific date already set for the demise of the 747s and thus implicitly First Class?I've not seen one mentioned. But I guess it's a case of "hurry while stocks last!". (But beware the equipment substitutions.;) )

D'oh! I missed the significance of CPT vs. JNB. :o

I hate when they can't make routes work ex CPT (and lord knows they've tried many over the years). That schlep up to JNB before we can get anywhere! The irony is that LHR is massively popular but they can't get any more slots there.

That would be a case for the A380. SAA did think about it but in the current situation I don't think that will be feasible for years to come.

I find it odd that SAA thinks that flights to LHR would not be feasible using a daylight flight from SA to LHR but they are feasible to Germany. There would be some slots available for this.

The main problem with routes ex CPT is a market that is too small at least for higher yield passengers. Granted there is a lot of leisure traffic but there is quite some competition for that market as well. As long as LTU and QR to name a few undercut SAAs prices by a significant margin they are going to battle in a price-sensitive market.

A solution would be to fly CPT-JNB-XXX and allow domestic passengers to fly CPT-JNB vv. However, they would have to figure out a deal with customs and immigrations. They have tried that numerous times but the authorities have been too inflexible for this (apparently the main problem would be handluggage which could be transferred between passengers).

With a group of six of us booked to fly LHR/JNB in F in December, I hope they don't pull the 747 before the end of the year. It would be a shame to lose the chance of what would be almost a private cabin for our party. It's the others (up to 5) in the cabin I feel sorry for if we do go ahead!!

With a group of six of us booked to fly LHR/JNB in F in December, I hope they don't pull the 747 before the end of the year. It would be a shame to lose the chance of what would be almost a private cabin for our party. It's the others (up to 5) in the cabin I feel sorry for if we do go ahead!!

We're in SA, everything takes a bit of time (usually).

We're in SA, everything takes a bit of time (usually).
And given that Corpt would be dealing with a departure from the EU, he/she should get a significant degree of protection from EU 261/2004.

And given that Corpt would be dealing with a departure from the EU, he/she should get a significant degree of protection from EU 261/2004.

I think that's right but some of us will be on award tickets so might not be quite as straightforward.

I think that's right but some of us will be on award tickets so might not be quite as straightforward.


The EU regulation 261/2004 does not differentiate between award tickets and other tickets. You will be covered just as if you had paid for your ticket in cash.

My familiy had a case of denied boarding on 4 award tickets a year ago and SA paid out the 600,-- Euro per person (after 4 days of e-mails going backwards and forwards).

So, no need to worry in that regard.

I think that's right but some of us will be on award tickets so might not be quite as straightforward.
As Capetonian has clarified above, there will be no distinction whatsoever.

Also if you spot a change of equipment yourself, and SAA hasn't directly notified you themselves of it, do NOT call SAA to ask them what they are going to do about it over 14 days prior to the flight!! ;)

Forgive me if this question has already been answered in the fact that first class will be eliminated... I am looking to fly NYC-CPT (presumably through IAD and JNB) in January 2008... I came here looking for opinions of SAA business class. Does SAA not have a business class, and thus the eradication of First means that their fleet will be a full economy product? If it will retain some biz class seats, can anyone comment on the quality of the service vis-a-vis CO, AF, or EK, for example?

Thanks.

Does SAA not have a business class, and thus the eradication of First means that their fleet will be a full economy product?Eh??

SmilingBoy.

i have never flown SA, but i assume they have a business class product. it's a shame they're doing away with the 744s. it was fun seeing them at IAD until they changed it to the a346.

Forgive me if this question has already been answered in the fact that first class will be eliminated... I am looking to fly NYC-CPT (presumably through IAD and JNB) in January 2008... I came here looking for opinions of SAA business class. Does SAA not have a business class, and thus the eradication of First means that their fleet will be a full economy product? If it will retain some biz class seats, can anyone comment on the quality of the service vis-a-vis CO, AF, or EK, for example?

Thanks.

All American routes are served by A340's. Those do have business class but they don't have F (and never had). Thei business class product is very nice. My personal opnion is that their hardware is one of the best if not the best worldwide (fully lieflat seats not at an angle). The service aspect is either hit or miss with SAA. They can be on par with the best but they can be as bad as an average American domestic product servicewise.

A solution would be to fly CPT-JNB-XXX and allow domestic passengers to fly CPT-JNB vv. However, they would have to figure out a deal with customs and immigrations. They have tried that numerous times but the authorities have been too inflexible for this (apparently the main problem would be handluggage which could be transferred between passengers).

KLM used to fly AMS-JNB-CPT, before they introduced a direct AMS-CPT route with the 777. Don't think it was possible to book the JNB-CPT route separately.

KLM used to fly AMS-JNB-CPT, before they introduced a direct AMS-CPT route with the 777. Don't think it was possible to book the JNB-CPT route separately.
QR currently do DOH-JNB-CPT v.v. with no pax uplift rights for JNB-CPT v.v..

Infact CPT orginating/bound pax are not even allowed to disembark at JNB and stretch their legs, but have to sit onboard while the cleaners & loaders arrive with the caterng etc.

Forgive me if this question has already been answered in the fact that first class will be eliminated... I am looking to fly NYC-CPT (presumably through IAD and JNB) in January 2008... I came here looking for opinions of SAA business class. Does SAA not have a business class, and thus the eradication of First means that their fleet will be a full economy product? If it will retain some biz class seats, can anyone comment on the quality of the service vis-a-vis CO, AF, or EK, for example?

Thanks.
As mentioned already - SAA have one of the best business class cabins in the world - and are #1 rated according to some surveys (http://www.flatseats.com/Reviews/flat-bed-biz.htm#rslt)

Apart from the sometimes questionable service - the product itself is great. The reason SAA can do away with First relatively easily probably owes a lot to the quality of the business class product.

KLM used to fly AMS-JNB-CPT, before they introduced a direct AMS-CPT route with the 777. Don't think it was possible to book the JNB-CPT route separately.

No, it's never been possible to book JNB-CPT on any of the airlines that fly (flew) this leg.

Nevertheless SAA could try and seek a solution here.

I have 2 mileage tickets flying LHR-CPT F CPT-JNB J JNB-LHR F in NOV.

Do you think I should: a) downgrade to J b) switch the LHR-CPT to LHR-JNB-CPT c) chance my luck?

I was already thinking of switching the direct CPT flight to go via JNB as the ticket desk staff at LHR told me there are often a/c substitutions on that route. When I called SA the other week to book seating the reservations agent insisted there was no F service on the CPT route until he brought up my PNR.

Beginning to wish I had booked BA, LH or LX now.

B:confused:

I'm surprised they haven't already switched your LHR-CPT F into J. I had a CPT-LHR F booking for Dec and they changed it back in Feb/March to a J booking (with corresponding fare adjustment) as they had moved the 747s to the JNB route. Regardless of the decision to ground the 747 fleet, it wasn't flying anymore on the CPT route anyway so your F booking should have changed.

I decided to accept the J booking on CPT-LHR as on the 346 it's supposed to be a very good product.

expertflyer is indeed showing the 346 running on the LHR-CPT route in November.

expertflyer is indeed showing the 346 running on the LHR-CPT route in November.

Still shows a 744 on my flight though.

B:confused:

I have 2 mileage tickets flying LHR-CPT F CPT-JNB J JNB-LHR F in NOV.

Do you think I should: a) downgrade to J b) switch the LHR-CPT to LHR-JNB-CPT c) chance my luck?


If you want to stick with LHR-CPT - then it is unlikey they will offer F so for peace of mind I would definately get the downgrade to J sorted.

Or you could change the routing and take the risk that the 747s will still be flying LHR-JNB in Nov - I wouldn't bet on that myself, especially considering the Paris route is being pulled in Oct which presumably frees up an A340. The last thing you want is to chance your luck and find you don't have a seat because the J cabin is full.

Still shows a 744 on my flight though.

B:confused:

Doesn't make sense so might be a glitch. They only have 346s on the CPT-LHR route now so I'd certainly look at clarifying and changing your booking.

Doesn't make sense so might be a glitch. They only have 346s on the CPT-LHR route now so I'd certainly look at clarifying and changing your booking.

On the CPT-LHR route you'll find 34x's and 747's which they seem to use at random. Should the 747s still be with SA inNovember you might find yourself on one of them on that route. However, SAA loves to substitute aircrafts backwards and forwards, so you might find yourself on a 346 in a week from now and back again on a 747 in a month.

If the 747s are still around by November they will be definitely used on the JNB-LHR route and every now and then you'll find them on the CPT-JNB route (on one of these flights Brian_1 seems to be booked).

If the 747s are pulled by November they will be pulled from both routes simultaneously. So with switching from CPT to JNB you can only avoid SAA's aircraft substitutions.

With a group of six of us booked to fly LHR/JNB in F in December, I hope they don't pull the 747 before the end of the year. It would be a shame to lose the chance of what would be almost a private cabin for our party. It's the others (up to 5) in the cabin I feel sorry for if we do go ahead!!

We're also booked in F in Dec LHR-JNB. I wonder if we're travelling on the same date-if so no need to feel sorry-we're always up for a party:)

The EU regulation 261/2004 does not differentiate between award tickets and other tickets. You will be covered just as if you had paid for your ticket in cash.

My familiy had a case of denied boarding on 4 award tickets a year ago and SA paid out the 600,-- Euro per person (after 4 days of e-mails going backwards and forwards).

So, no need to worry in that regard.

The compensation is fine but would we then be guaranteed seats in C class.

We can cope with a downgrade to business class but the thought of bieng bumped from F to Y a couple of days before Xmas is:eek:

If C class was full (which is quite possible at that time of the year) would SAA be required to transfer us to another airline with a F cabin which serves JNB (Lufthansa/Swiss/BA)-even though we have award tickets?

No, it's never been possible to book JNB-CPT on any of the airlines that fly (flew) this leg.

Nevertheless SAA could try and seek a solution here.

Many years ago, SA flew (I think) a AMS/FRA/JNB/CPT route.

On at least one occasion I can remember domestic JNB/CPT passengers getting on board in JNB. In the other direction, it was not possible, no-one got off in JNB.

Doesn't make sense so might be a glitch. They only have 346s on the CPT-LHR route now so I'd certainly look at clarifying and changing your booking.

Not quite true: at the moment they are alternating 744 and 346. I am on a 744 in two weeks time.

Many years ago, SA flew (I think) a AMS/FRA/JNB/CPT route.

On at least one occasion I can remember domestic JNB/CPT passengers getting on board in JNB. In the other direction, it was not possible, no-one got off in JNB.


Yes, you're right. For a rather short period SA could take on domestic passengers until immigration and customs stopped it.

We're also booked in F in Dec LHR-JNB. I wonder if we're travelling on the same date-if so no need to feel sorry-we're always up for a party:)



The compensation is fine but would we then be guaranteed seats in C class.

We can cope with a downgrade to business class but the thought of bieng bumped from F to Y a couple of days before Xmas is:eek:

If C class was full (which is quite possible at that time of the year) would SAA be required to transfer us to another airline with a F cabin which serves JNB (Lufthansa/Swiss/BA)-even though we have award tickets?

That does not come quite clear from the EU regulation - it states as follows:

Article 10 Upgrading and Downgrading
.
.
2. If an operating carrier places a passenger in a lower class than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within 7 days, by the means provided in Article 7(3), reimburse...
.
(c) 75% of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European Member States and the French overseas departments.

where (a) refers to flights of less than 1500 km and (b) refers to flights between 1500 km and 3500 km.

I have got no idea if this means that they would have to refund you 75% of your miles or if there is some monetary value attached to these miles which would be used to calculate the refund.

Also the regulation states nothing about a (possible) double downgrade - it only mentions downgrade.

I have 2 rewards seats booked in business class for mid Oct FRA-CPT.

I will have to keep an eye on this route.

I have 2 rewards seats booked in business class for mid Oct FRA-CPT.

I will have to keep an eye on this route.

Nothing will happen on that route. That is always a 346 and there is no talk of suspending this route neither. Don't worry.

If C class was full (which is quite possible at that time of the year) would SAA be required to transfer us to another airline with a F cabin which serves JNB (Lufthansa/Swiss/BA)-even though we have award tickets?

I doubt they are required to transfer you, but it does happen.

I was recently the victim of a late equipment change on JNB-LHR from 744 to 346. The later SAA 744 flight was full in F, so no chance of a transfer to that flight. SAA wanted to fly me on the 346 in J, but after some "negotiation" rebooked me into F on the BA flight (complete with associated BA miles and Tier points :) )

I spoke to SAA this morning to clarify the likely timing of the 747 withdrawal. They currently expect it to be before the end of this year but that isn't yet confirmed and they don't have any idea yet when it's likely to be confirmed.

Get your F flights in quickly before it's too late......

This is bad news!

Anyone know which version of the 340 is likely to be used on this route in place of the 747. I would have assumed the 340-600 as it obviously has the largest capacity but do they have spare 600's lying around-I somehow doubt it.

I know they dropped the Zurich route not too long ago but that was served with either a 340-300 or 340-200.

If they are intending using these smaller versions of the 340 in place of the 747 I hope they amend thier schedules soon.

With only 38 C class seats on the 340-300 and 24 C class seats on the 340-200 (compared to 11F plus 39 C giving a total of 50 premium class seats on the 747-400) we could be looking at quite a few people being bumped off flights towards the end of the year:(:eek::mad:

Very bad news indeed. I´m booked on lufthansa award on F, but outbound SAA , LHR-JNB in late January 2008. Any tips on what to do ? Should I ask LH to try get me seats on LH F instead, it was not easy finding award seats on any star carrier to JNB for next year...

Very bad news indeed. I´m booked on lufthansa award on F, but outbound SAA , LHR-JNB in late January 2008. Any tips on what to do ? Should I ask LH to try get me seats on LH F instead, it was not easy finding award seats on any star carrier to JNB for next year...

If you are booked with LH you don't need to worry. Their policy is to allow you to book into any available booking class if a flight gets cancelled where your award seat was booked on. In other words, if worse come to worse they will book you on A or F on LH.

If you are booked with LH you don't need to worry. Their policy is to allow you to book into any available booking class if a flight gets cancelled where your award seat was booked on. In other words, if worse come to worse they will book you on A or F on LH.

Do you mean that they will re-book you on a revenue ticket for which you would get miles? that would be nice!

Do you mean that they will re-book you on a revenue ticket for which you would get miles? that would be nice!

Yes, LH will rebook you into a revenue fare bucket if necessary. I'll doubt you get miles, though.

I'll let you know in a few weeks time. My family was booked on an award on LH 576/577 which was cancelled and they got rebooked in Q on the SA/LH codeshare. Flight is next week.

Interesting! Given LH's IT incompetence I doubt they will recognize that the specific rebooked flight/booking code is a non-earning one! Good luck ^

My mid Dec LHR/LNB flight has now officially changed to 346 and we're downgraded from F to C/J with corresponding miles adjustment. The C cabin is already 2/3 full so it's good they've made the official change sooner rather than later.

My booking on SA237 (Jan 08)looks a bit weird on checkmytrip, there is one reservation for First, but AC type changed to A340/300 and then one additional res. in Business. Wonder though if LH plans to inform me, and whether I will get any mileage compensation...or if I can request LH to open up award seat on their own FRA-JNB flights....

I'm so glad I noticed this thread. I've been looking on the *A and OW forums, but didn't have this information.

I have no *A status.

I want one award ticket to Africa, round-trip, business (or first).

I depart from SFO (or SJC).

My preferred routings are UA/SAA SFO FRA CPT.

I must be in Cape Town, South Africa by Friday June 27, 2008. I’d like to arrive there Thursday June 26, leaving US Tuesday June 24.

I will start phoning at -330. The FRA CPT flight will be in the computer at -331 US. May I book/hold leg 2 before leg 1?

I’ll be returning about a month later, probably from DAR. I’ll have a few days flexibility for the return Do I fake a return date, purchase the award, then change? Will they hold for at least a few days, so that return will be in the computer?

Has anyone an online seat map for the new planes? 346?

I did notice using the ANA tool a few weeks ago that there was more business award availability a year out than there had been when I looked a few months ago, and no first at all.

Sylvia

...or if I can request LH to open up award seat on their own FRA-JNB flights....

You can do so and LH will accommodate you.

Has anyone an online seat map for the new planes? 346?



http://ww3.flysaa.com/Shared/Downloads/SeatPlans/A340_600.JPG

Looks like the last 747 out of LHR is 30 Oct. The two daily JNB flights then become a 343 and 346, with the CPT flight as a 346.

F awards still available on 28/29/30 Oct out of JNB - still a chance to get the last ever SAA F flight to LHR :)