Travel Technology - ThinkPads Aren't all they're Cracked Up to Be

I've got to admit . . . I'm very disappointed with my ThinkPad experience so far.

I ordered a T60 a month ago, and received it two weeks ago. Since then, it's hung hard 3 times, bluescreened 4, and I'm experiencing unpredictable video corruption.

The USB ports are underpowered; my Blackberry won't function as an EVDO modem unless I have the laptop plugged into AC.

I've contacted IBM/Lenovo for support, and they don't have any record of my 3-year on-site warranty, so I've been shuttled between various departments along with IBM Global Advantage Leasing to try and clear that up. I thought that was taken care of Tuesday, but after receiving no follow up from service dispatch, called again today to find out that the service request was canceled and my warranty information again reflected only the standard factory warranty. As I write this, I've been on the phone for a full hour with IBM service trying to get it all straightened out AGAIN so that they can schedule a visit for tommorow.

I never had anything like this runaround when I dealt with Dell. I'm very much regretting my decision to jump from the Dell fold.

You should probably report your experience here:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/

Sorry for your problems. I have owned over 6 laptops from various companies and the Thinkpads are the best of all of them. Ditto from the tech guys from a couple of companies I speak with. Most business people detest Dell laptops. If Lenovo cant solve the problems sell it on ebay and buy something else. I suggest you dont do Dell. The WSJ (subscription site) (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117936934739405848.html?mod=technology_featured_ stories_hs) had an article today on the durability and tech of IBM.

MisterNice

You should probably report your experience here:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/

I have, bits and pieces in separate threads. I monitored those forums for a while before actually making my purchase decision.

The Dells I've had previously had their share of problems, but there was a huge difference on the support side. Getting the Dells fixed involved a simple phone call, minimal on-hold time, and no runaround. A tech was at my office the next day with the parts.

Doesn't look like that's going to be the case with my vaunted ThinkPad.

My business Dell Latitude D820 suddenly won't work with the dock - USB ports inactive, but DVI is fine. They're coming to the house next week.

Meanwhile, my new personal ThinkPad T60p seems great, although I do believe Lenovo is beginning to erode the build quality. For this T60p, instead of the DIMMs on the bottom and accessible through a small panel with a single screw, it now takes four screws to remove the "palmrest cover." For the first time, ThinkPads have a seam running along the keyboard area - it's a two-piece cover dividing the keyboard. The DIMMs are now under your left palm.

And given the consistency of the plastic cover, you can, if you wish and with little effort, press right down on the DIMMs while typing.

Sorry for your problems. I have owned over 6 laptops from various companies and the Thinkpads are the best of all of them. Ditto from the tech guys from a couple of companies I speak with. Most business people detest Dell laptops. If Lenovo cant solve the problems sell it on ebay and buy something else. I suggest you dont do Dell. The WSJ (subscription site) (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117936934739405848.html?mod=technology_featured_ stories_hs) had an article today on the durability and tech of IBM.

MisterNice

The engineering is great.

It's the execution that needs some work.

The engineering is great.

It's the execution that needs some work.

Errr, I gotta disagree. Having my T60p shut down more than half the time because of an ESD (electro-static discharge) when I dock it is real dumb engineering.

It took Lenovo months to come up with a field kit: little rubber caps for the port replicator doohickies.

I've got to admit . . . I'm very disappointed with my ThinkPad experience so far.

I find it strange that you're having this experience but I suppose that there isn't any large company that can please everyone. The big problem with the T60s is that there are a bunch of cheapo models (see the model at office depot) and then the higher quality, well built models that are also T60s. I'm not entirely sure how to tell the difference between the good and the bad and that is one reason I've been holding off on upgrading my system.

I ordered a T60 a month ago, and received it two weeks ago. Since then, it's hung hard 3 times, bluescreened 4, and I'm experiencing unpredictable video corruption.
This is clearly a software error. The first thing I do with any computer, Thinkpad's included, is wipe the system clean and do a fresh windows install from an OEM disc. Unfortunately, the profit margins are so low on computers that most all manufacturers are collecting additional income by loading crap onto their computers.
The USB ports are underpowered; my Blackberry won't function as an EVDO modem unless I have the laptop plugged into AC.
This is a setting and can be changed if desired. See lenovo.com
I've contacted IBM/Lenovo for support, and they don't have any record of my 3-year on-site warranty, so I've been shuttled between various departments along with IBM Global Advantage Leasing to try and clear that up. I thought that was taken care of Tuesday, but after receiving no follow up from service dispatch, called again today to find out that the service request was canceled and my warranty information again reflected only the standard factory warranty. As I write this, I've been on the phone for a full hour with IBM service trying to get it all straightened out AGAIN so that they can schedule a visit for tommorow.
This really is a horrible experience. Did you buy the computer direct from Lenovo? If not, it's possible a you were sold a 3rd party warranty. I've always received prompt next-day onsite service for major issues and for problems I can fix myself their tech support has always taken my word about the problem (with very minimal runaround/verification) and overnighted the required parts.

I never had anything like this runaround when I dealt with Dell. I'm very much regretting my decision to jump from the Dell fold.
You're the only one I know that has received the runaround from Lenovo/IBM but not Dell. ;)

I hope you get it all worked out. I'd be curious to know who purchased the system, where it was purchased from, and what software modifications you have done since the computer was shipped to you.

I find it strange that you're having this experience but I suppose that there isn't any large company that can please everyone. The big problem with the T60s is that there are a bunch of cheapo models (see the model at office depot) and then the higher quality, well built models that are also T60s. I'm not entirely sure how to tell the difference between the good and the bad and that is one reason I've been holding off on upgrading my system.
It's not the top of the line T60, but it's close. T7600 (2.33GHz Core 2 Duo), 100GB 7200RPM HD, Discrete ATI X1400 graphics, and WSXGA+ display.

This is clearly a software error. The first thing I do with any computer, Thinkpad's included, is wipe the system clean and do a fresh windows install from an OEM disc. Unfortunately, the profit margins are so low on computers that most all manufacturers are collecting additional income by loading crap onto their computers.

Well, given that the problems haven't reoccurred since the main board was replaced Friday, It's starting to look like software wasn't the culprit.

(re:USB/Blackberry issues) This is a setting and can be changed if desired. See lenovo.com
If you're referring to the "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power" setting on the root hubs, I made that adjustment early on. I haven't tried my BB again since the main board replacement, though. I'm pretty much convinced that it's a power regulation issue with the original main board, since there were so many symptoms.

This really is a horrible experience. Did you buy the computer direct from Lenovo?
Yes, direct from Lenovo, through IBM Global Advantage Leasing. The warranty was Lenovo's 3 year on-site, but they apparently farm service out to Qualex. Can't say I'm impressed with them; they don't have the current service manuals available to them through their internal support channels, and the guy that handled the main board replacement had to disassemble the machine twice because he had screws left over after the first reassembly. After the 2nd, the right palm-rest on the keyboard bulged up oddly; he had to partially disassemble it again to figure out what he'd done wrong. At the end, there was still an extra plastic piece left over with no obvious home, and it didn't show up anywhere in the exploded assembly diagram we eventually found on the Lenovo site. My guess is that it's an extraneous piece that somehow got lodged inside the laptop during assembly at the factory, and may have contributed to the problem by flexing the main board or preventing full contact on some internal connections.

If not, it's possible a you were sold a 3rd party warranty. I've always received prompt next-day onsite service for major issues and for problems I can fix myself their tech support has always taken my word about the problem (with very minimal runaround/verification) and overnighted the required parts.
That was another annoying thing about this ordeal: On Thursday, once I'd finally gotten the warranty issue dealt with, I was told that the parts would be shipped to the servicer and I would have a visit Friday. The technician called me Friday morning, told me he was really "stacked up," and that he may not get to me that day. I reminded him that I had a next day service contract, pointed out that this whole mess actually started Tuesday, and that anything but a Friday arrival would be unacceptable. I immediately followed up with IBM Service Dispatch, who followed up with Qualex, who eventually set the technician's priorities straight. When he called to confirm that he would be moving me up in the queue, he let me know in no uncertain terms that he was quite inconvenienced by my demands.

You're the only one I know that has received the runaround from Lenovo/IBM but not Dell. ;)

I keep hearing that. But Dell never gave me any grief on the service side. I think their service/support group is more fully integrated than Lenovo's; Lenovo seems to be still working out some issues with their separation from IBM.

I hope you get it all worked out. I'd be curious to know who purchased the system, where it was purchased from, and what software modifications you have done since the computer was shipped to you.

As mentioned above, purchased directly from Lenovo through IBM GAL, from a specification list I prepared myself by going through Lenovo's laptop customization process on-line and printing the resulting config to a PDF. The actual ordering process was handled by one of our PC support folks at the main office, from the details provided in the PDF I sent to him.

It's WinXP Pro SP2; I've installed VMWare 5.5.4, Office 2003 Pro, restored my Outlook databases, copied over my client records, installed my primary text editors (Ultraedit and EMACS), Loaded up Sun's Java CAPS 5.1.2, and installed PuTTY for telnet/ssh/tunneling. Also added were Firefox 2, PDFCreator, Hummingbird's eXceed, Blackberry Destop Manager 4.2 SP1, MySQL and GUI tools, Cygwin, and a few other userland apps. All of the available updates from Microsoft and Lenovo have been applied, and the BIOS has been upgraded to the latest version (the last again after the mainboard replacement).

It hasn't hung or BSoD'd since the main board was replaced. I'm cautiously optimistic.

I'm still trying to figure out which model Lenovo you purchased. T7600 is a CPU chip designation--it is not a Lenovo model designation.

Lenovo has the low-price budget "C", "N", and "V" models and the ThinkPad "R", "T", "Z", and "X" models.

Which do you have?

There can always be a bad apple off the assembly line. I dictate buying decisions my company. We buy Dell desktops, but won't touch their laptops.

It's not the top of the line T60, but it's close. T7600 (2.33GHz Core 2 Duo), 100GB 7200RPM HD, Discrete ATI X1400 graphics, and WSXGA+ display.

I'm still trying to figure out which model Lenovo you purchased. T7600 is a CPU chip designation--it is not a Lenovo model designation.

Lenovo has the low-price budget "C", "N", and "V" models and the ThinkPad "R", "T", "Z", and "X" models.

Which do you have?


It would be a "T" model, as in "T60." As it says in my my previous post "It's not the top of the line T60, but it's close." The specific type is 8743-B9U. The list of features following that sentence was just that, a list of its features :D

There can always be a bad apple off the assembly line. I dictate buying decisions my company. We buy Dell desktops, but won't touch their laptops.

I certainly understand that there can be a bad apple/lemon off the assembly line. That wasn't the thrust of my complaint, though . . . so many folks have pitched in here and elsewhere about both the quality of the laptop and the top level service IBM/Lenovo provides (at least when compared to Dell), and my experience was pretty much directly opposite. Many problems with the hardware, and the service was atrocious.

I'm typing this from my new T60. While it's not quite as polished (keyboard changes, smaller touchpad) as my previous T40, it is head and shoulders above anything made by Dell. I use a variety of Dell machines for work and all of them seem (and sometimes are) two steps away from total disaster. Broken hinges, strange errors, etc.

gotta ask,
is this an XP pro thinkpad, or a vista one.

I have been using TP's for 12 years now, and I think they are still the best, but the latest T60p that I have with Vista, gives me more headaches in the first month than ALL the others combined in the past 10 years.

gotta ask,
is this an XP pro thinkpad, or a vista one.

I have been using TP's for 12 years now, and I think they are still the best, but the latest T60p that I have with Vista, gives me more headaches in the first month than ALL the others combined in the past 10 years.

XP Pro SP2. PTravel's glowing reviews notwithstanding, I wouldn't have had any confidence in my own computer diagnostic abilities with a new operating system in the mix.

On a positive note, the mainboard replacement seems to have resolved the freeze, GPF and flakey Blackberry/USB issues. I may fall in love with this thing after all . . . ;)

Mine came with the NMB keyboard (yay!) but the Samsung display (ewwww). The Sammy's still much better than my old Dell XGA display, though.

I love my T60p, had a T43p previously. They are solid. Seem very sturdy compared to many other laptops. Overall, I think lenovo has done a good job.

gotta ask,
is this an XP pro thinkpad, or a vista one.

I have been using TP's for 12 years now, and I think they are still the best, but the latest T60p that I have with Vista, gives me more headaches in the first month than ALL the others combined in the past 10 years.

For me and my new Vista T60p, only one bug so far: The screen brightness likes to dim to level 3 after a while, even though it's plugged into AC and the power preferences show full brightness for both battery and AC operation. I don't see anything on the Google, so I may have to try phone support (which in my experience has been good when IBM, but we'll see now that it's Lenovo).

Edited to add: I actually did end up finding an update to Lenovo's power management software on their website that corrected this very issue, so for the moment, my T60p with Vista is humming along swimmingly.

I think the T60's quality is down a bit. Mine has much cheaper touchpad buttons, the top has the thinest coat of rubberization possible. I almost wanted to plug my t42 back and go with it. To put the two side by side, you can see just how bad things have gotten and I too have had many many problems with mine from day one. Still better than a Dell in most cases, think i might recommend HP next time, if that is you don't mind running a mac. I was really impressed with the most recent HPs I've seen, and the Federal government is going to prevent Lenovos from being on the network anyway.

It might just be the economic realities of the industry or the fact that Lenovo is going cheap, hard to tell at this point.

IMO I believe that my IBM ThinkPad was the longest lasting and best computer I have ever purchased. Although the mother board finally did crap, but I believe something was spilled on it. . . . and I was never told. :mad:

Now that I think about it. . .

I can't say that my T60 is built any less cheaply than the Dell I had, but it does seem somewhat more fragile.

I discovered last night that the bonehead that replaced the motherboard a week and a half ago left a couple of screws out of the left hinge. And the fact that the right palmrest is now misaligned with the rest of the bezel just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The laptop doesn't freeze or lockup anymore, and the Blackberry works fine off USB whether battery or AC powered, but the surgery performed to get it stable left more scar tissue than it should have.

For the first time, ThinkPads have a seam running along the keyboard area - it's a two-piece cover dividing the keyboard. The DIMMs are now under your left palm.

My two year old T42 has a seam in the keyboard area. In fact, though one dimm is on the bottom, the primary DIMM is located underneath the keyboard. Boy - was THAT a pain to get to....

Still. I've owned Dells and never again. When it took me 30 days to get a replacement part for a SERVER under warranty, I knew they just didn't give a crap about keeping me running. My last Toshiba was part of a class action lawsuit if that says anything. I'm sticking with the Thinkpads for now.

-cheapo

Anyone that thought that the sale of IBM's PC division to Lenovo wouldn't result in lower quality standards is crazy. It's only going to get worse.

Anyone that thought that the sale of IBM's PC division to Lenovo wouldn't result in lower quality standards is crazy. It's only going to get worse.

Agreed. My new T60p may be my last ThinkPad in a very long line. In the immortal words of my dad...we'll see.

If not a Thinkpad, which thin and light notebook?

The only manufacturers who (IMHO) produce quality machines (besides IBM) are:

Apple, Asus, Fujitsu, Sony and Acer.

Dell DOES have some very high quality machines, but you need to stay away from certain lines. Toshiba even has some great machines, but like Dell certain product lines just suck.

I dislike all HP machines, but they do still make some decent Compaq models like they did in the old days. The last few HP's I had were all plastic heaps of junk.

bump because my Toshiba is about ready to be tossed and the laptop preceding it was a IBM T40p but the Tecra was a downgrade to me so I'd like to go back to thinkpads but there seem to be lingering questions about Lenovo quality..

I work with many people who have shiny new T60s.

Some have now resorted to keeping a list (on paper) of all the problems.

Best one so far, is 60 errors (HW and SW) in 2 weeks of ownership.

bring on machine virtualisation, then large companies can do away with HW policies!!!

Since I started this thread, I've had a total of 4 visits from the service tech for my T60. The first was to fix a motherboard problem; subsequent visits were mostly to fix things he screwed up on his first and, believe it or not, subsequent visits. Since the last visit, no significant problems to report. If it had worked like this from the start, I'd be Lenovo's biggest cheerleader right now. Because of all the service issues, though, I'm probably going back to Dell on my next purchase.

Well, but the technician's performance isn't really connected to the sale of the computer division, is it?
Has anyone noted a drop in service performance?

I recently replaced my old Thinkpad A31p with a Macbook Pro and haven't been happier. The T60p wasn't attractive at all compared to this shiny work of art.

Since I started this thread, I've had a total of 4 visits from the service tech for my T60. The first was to fix a motherboard problem; subsequent visits were mostly to fix things he screwed up on his first and, believe it or not, subsequent visits. Since the last visit, no significant problems to report. If it had worked like this from the start, I'd be Lenovo's biggest cheerleader right now. Because of all the service issues, though, I'm probably going back to Dell on my next purchase.
Welcome to Dell, where my several week old laptop screen hinge has come loose and IE shuts down several times a day.

No way I'd go from IBM to Dell if I had a choice in the matter.

Oh and Sony laptops suck bad. Several Sony laptops I've had have croaked way too early, and the smaller laptops take an act of God to remove the hard drive to replace.

I have a T60p for work, a T42 for home use and used to have a T40p for my work computer.

I definately see quality has reduced with the the T60p over the T4x series. I believe the T61 series is of slightly better quality.

Service wise, I've always had excellent service from IBM/Lenovo. I don't think that will change in the short-medium term. My only gripe with IBM/Lenovo support was that it took them ~4 weeks to replace my recalled battery.

I have a new T61 and it seems the external case is a bit weaker, but they boast about the supporting structure. I've also worked with the new Dells, and they suffer even more. I'm glad I opted for an IBM/Lenovo this time.

Well, but the technician's performance isn't really connected to the sale of the computer division, is it?
Has anyone noted a drop in service performance?

No, it's the same service group (Qualex) that handled on-site repairs prior to the sale. But that's still part of the equation, as far as I'm concerned.

I've used almost every brand under the sun and can honestly say that Thinkpads have been the best (Dell was the worst, but that is another story).

That said... My T60p is not impressive. I've had issues with the USB recognizing perfectly functional devices and problems recovering from standby. That and the fact that I've practically needed to turn up my air conditioning to keep up with the incredible heat it generates.

Well, I’m six months into my first ThinkPad, a T60p, and you can have it when you pry it from my cold dead fingers, LOL.

<SNIP> That said... My T60p is not impressive. I've had issues with the USB recognizing perfectly functional devices and problems recovering from standby.

About a month after working flawlessly, my Motorola Q started causing BSODs when tethered via USB. I spent some time reading the documentation and sync via Bluetooth now, so that’s not a problem. The only other fix I could see was reinstalling the OS, which would be way more inconvenient than carrying a travel charger for the handset. I don’t think it’s a hardware issue.

The root cause of my stability issues that ended up in the initial motherboard replacement for my T60 appears to have been related to power. One of the symptoms I experienced was that unless the T60 was plugged into wall power, my tethered internet connection through my Blackberry wouldn't work reliably; the connection would drop after only 30-45 seconds. As soon as I plugged the power supply in, though, I could tether for hours. There were many other BSODs and hard freezes during that time period too.

The experiences of both shiner and N965VJ seem related to mine.

I have, bits and pieces in separate threads. I monitored those forums for a while before actually making my purchase decision.

The Dells I've had previously had their share of problems, but there was a huge difference on the support side. Getting the Dells fixed involved a simple phone call, minimal on-hold time, and no runaround. A tech was at my office the next day with the parts.

Doesn't look like that's going to be the case with my vaunted ThinkPad.

Weird - when my ThinkPad crashed I had a tech at my house within 4 hours.

I can't speak to the quality of the T60, but I've have my T61 now for about 2 months and I'm really quite impressed. It does seem that the general consensus is that ThinkPads aren't as good as they used to be, but having never owned one before I'm quite pleased. The frame is solid and the components seem well made. The keyboard, well, I could go on about it for a long time. Seriously, it's a magnificent keyboard for a laptop.

I have seen a number of people who have software related issues, including crashes. I didn't have those kind of issues, but I did take the time to wipe the computer and install a fresh copy of Vista. Most people seem to agree that this process makes the computer run much more smoothly.

If you haven't already been there, you might check out the Lenovo forum (http://forum.notebookreview.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)at notebookreview for more information. They're not as disciplined with their posts over there as FTers, but I've learned a lot from some of the threads.

I have owned at T42 for 2.5 years.

I recently had a problem with the charging mechanism. I sent it in for repair and IBM claimed I had spilled something on it (which I had not). After no responses, the machine showed up repaired. Still left a bad feeling with me.

I had ordered a T60, but because of my experience and because of the lead times I canceled my order.

My next laptop will be a MacIntosh.