Germany - Advice? Trip to Germany next week! FRA/BER/KRA/MUN/BRU/?

I am leaving for Germany next week for an exploratory trip. Just wanting to see as much as I can in a short period of time. Interested in history, old buildings, WW1 & 2, Old Clocks, Crafts, Local Fairs (similar to craft fairs w/ music and fun), Toy makers, all those things that make the countries great. I have 7 full days and I am hiring a car. My thoughts are:
SAT land in Frankfurt EARLY and drive to Berlin, look around that night, see wall and get some rest.
SUN Go to a local WWII museum and anything else that is a must see and then drive down to Krakow that night.
MON Go to Auschwitz early and see a few more sights before heading out for Munich via the crooked path that would carry me down into Slovakia and Austria (really wanted to go through Czech but I figure this is already a lot.
TUE Go to Dachow and then take in a museum or tour an auto factory if I could, head to Innsbruck for the night.
WED Head back up to Neuchwestein Castle and then slowly head across the southern part of Germany to Lake Constance and depending on how much time I spend crossing this area and what there is to see maybe make it over near Rust for the night or just stop for the night in Lake Constance.
THU finish the trip through the area and go to the amusement park in Rust then spend the night across the border in France for the night.
FRI take a quick drive up through either Stuttgart or head straight toward Luxembourg and then on to Brussells before stopping for the night somewhere.
SAT flight leaves at 3:30 for Glasgow, so not sure I will actually make it this far.
Advice along the way, must sees and don't misses along my interest areas along with information about events and happenings that should not be missed.

I know I will be tired but I will spend the next week resting in Scotland.

:eek: :rolleyes:

It's an interesting concept - nothing wrong with trying to see as varied a group of attractions as possible.

Especially given your interest in WWII and old buildings, here's a thought for a possible alternative routing (keeps you within Germany, so ignore this idea if "collecting" countries is foremost :)

FRA - south to Stuttgart and Munich, then northwest via Nuremburg to Weimar (Buchenwald) and Dresden. Then up to Berlin. Then west to Hannover (Bergen-Belsen, a short ways north of HAJ, extremely moving Camp memorial), followed by a southwest routing through Cologne and on to Belgium.

Just a thouht, aimed at giving you more quality time at the sites you do visit.

Looking at your itinerary I think most of your days will be spent stuck in traffic and most of your nights will be spent crashing out in your hotel room recovering from being stuck in traffic. I think you are vastly underestimating the time it will take you to travel between all these places.

Non-NonRev's suggestion is a good one. Alternatively you could pick out two or three cities and travel between them by train. That way you'll have time to relax while in transit, and time to do some unhurried sight-seeing while you're in those cities.

Or you could decide to make this a "countryside trip". Drive around leisurely, use minor roads instead of the Autobahn, avoid big cities (trying to drive into and out of big cities is going to be the time-consuming and stressful bit).

You're trying to pack far too much into your one week - do about half, and leave the rest for another trip.

Another thought... are you flying into FRA on an overnight longhaul flight? If so... are you an experienced long-haul traveller?

When I started travelling long-haul I found that all I was able to do after an overnight eastbound flight was crash out. It got easier as I got used to it, but I still find that after flying overnight from North America to Europe, even in Business Class, I am not really fit to drive in the morning. I will drive myself home from the airport, but I would not want to drive for more than about an hour after an overnight flight, especially not on unfamiliar roads.

If you're flying in from the USA overnight then you may want to think again about that drive to Berlin.

You can catch an ICE train from FRA airport train station to Berlin. The trip is much, much shorter than what the drive would take. Most of the train stations have car rental agencies (Sixt or Europcar), and that might be a better option if you feel the need to get out and drive.

Driving in Poland is another issue. Your car rental agency might not like the idea of their cars being driven there! Again, a train trip or a flight into Krakow might be a better idea here.

I've gotten used to Trans-Atlantic flights, so I know pretty much how I'm going to feel the first day. I used to pack a lot of driving in and would often find myself almost dozing off at the wheel. Do yourself a favor and let your body ease into the new time zone without being behind the wheel of a car for long periods of time. And, as was mentioned earlier, the stau possibility is real and maddening. I can't imagine trying to negotiate Berlin after a long drive and being exhausted from a flight on top of it. I don't even like driving around Berlin wide awake.

That is a busy, busy trip you have planned. I'd say to enjoy it you should cut some things out and use it as an excuse to come back another time.

Having read the OP plan i believe it cannot be done. He will find himself in so many traffic jams, will enjoy plenty of border controls, might not be allowed to take the car rented in Germany to Poland and other eastern places and will experiene great roads in Poland.

The plan itself creates somes questionsmarks on my face. What "Wall" does the OP expect to see in Berlin? And a local WWII museum? I am not really aware of any. And driving from Berlin via Krakow to Munich in about 36 to 40 hours (without any sleep) and crossing borders several times seems to be difficult to impossible. Could continue with that.....

I am in agreement with the other responders. Not only is the orignial plan absolutely impossible, it betrays a very firm preconception (and to my mind misconception) about what Germany is and has to offer.

Why not just settle on one or two geographic areas of interest and discover what they are like for yourself? With an open mind you are likely to find the things of greatest interest are those which you have never seen portrayed in movies or on television.

Ok so this may be a little much. I thought it would be myself but family wants to see "everything". Since it is impossible, I will make some priorities. We are landing in FRA and travel TA many times a year and my wife and I rotate driving on the arrival day since she sleeps like a rock on a plane and I don't. I sleep while she drives and then we swap. Our research does not reveal anything of interest in FRA but that is where AA flies to for our ticket. Everyone wants to see Berlin. The wall is the surviving portions of the Berline Wall that were left standing and then there is the German Museum of Technology Berlin, German Historical Museum, Mauermuseum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie (where wall exhibits are) and the Reichstag. I don't know which of these would be the most interesting. I am not opposed to staying in a hotel on the outskirts of town and taking a underground if they have one into sightsee. I will be there on Saturday night and Sunday. I planned on leaving so that I would not be in there during high traffic periods. I would like to avoid traffic so advice as to which cities to avoid on certain days and times would be appreciated. I did not think there would be restrictions on travel into other EU member countries. So which countries should I avoid crossing into. We always like to cross borders, get a few more passport stamps just to say we went to the border if nothing else. However the main attraction to Krakow is Auschwitz-Birkenau, there may be other things of interest there as well. Driving is less expensive by far since there are 5 of us. This is a place that my sons think would be very meaningful. The reason for Munich is not Munich but Dachau. Now the information I have read states that Auschwitz is very much the way it was and worth the visit. The information on Dachau is limited but it appears that it is worth the visit. I am not against the train or eliminating Auschwitz this trip. My sons REALLY want to go there. I prefer seeing the country side and visiting local craft type areas and we are really into places like Neuschwanstein and other forts and castles and technology/military/train museums. Really want to visit the Alps and Black Forest. Of course since we are into amusement parks, we always try to visit at least one amusement park that we have never visited before on every trip, that is where Rust came in. We fly out Sat evening.

So what if I stayed in Berlin or Munich and took a train to Auschwitz? Which would be cheaper, how long would I have for the visit on a same day turn around? I am sure that someone on here has done this before or at least knows the drill.

Which Saturday are you flying, this coming one (19th) or the one after (26th)? If it's the latter you need to be aware that Monday 29th is a holiday in most of Europe.

Also... a lot of museums are closed on Mondays. This may not apply on the 29th (since it's a holiday), but it's worth checking.

If you're going this coming Saturday (19th) you need to be aware that there will be lots of extra traffic on the Sunday because tomorrow is also a holiday (Ascension Day) and lots of people are taking Friday off so there will be lots of people driving back from week-end breaks.

Ok, lets think:

Driving from Frankfurt to Berlin seems to be doable and with the five of you it seems to be reasonable:

surviving portions of the Berline Wall
German Museum of Technology Berlin,
German Historical Museum,
Mauermuseum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie
and the Reichstag

is doable, but it is a challenge. I would take at least half a day for each of the museums. I would take a hotel directly in the center, this give you the opportunity so see at least a bit of Berlin at night. Getting out of town on a Sunday or even Monday morning should not be a big problem.

There will be problems to take the car into Poland. For the five of you you will not chose a VW Polo but I expect you to take a Mercedes or BMW. And most car rental companies will not allow you to take these into Poland (because the car without you might be quite quickly be further east). Corssing borders can still be time consuming as these borders are "real" borders between the "inner circle" of EU countries (Schengen) and further EU countries.

Krakau is one of the most beautifil cities in Poland and limiting it to Auschwitz would be a shame. But you are right: Auschwitz is very much the same as it was 60 years ago. I would not say, it is worth seing but it is an experience. And if you have seen Auschwitz there is no need to see Dachau. BTW: You might wish to see the Holocaust memorial in Berlin, it is in 10 minutes walking distance from the Reichstag in quite impressive. The exhibition there is well worth seeing, too.

What I would consider is to fly back from Krakow to Stuttgart on Germanwings, a German LCC. The ticket should be around Euro 50. The only challenge might be to get rid of the car. From Stuttgart you can drive via the Black Forst to Lake Constance and Bavaria. Other possibility could be to take that car to Dresden (you know, the city which was bombed to ruins in WW 2 and rose to its original beauty), leave the car there and fly on Air Berlin to Munich. What I definitely would not do is to drive the full distance from Krakow to Munich and further on.

So what if I stayed in Berlin or Munich and took a train to Auschwitz? Which would be cheaper, how long would I have for the visit on a same day turn around? I am sure that someone on here has done this before or at least knows the drill.

I doubt anybody on here has attempted this as a day trip - it would probably take 10 or 11 hours by train just to get to Auschwitz from either of those cities, let alone visit the site and come back again! You can use the DB web site (http://www.bahn.de/p/view/international/englisch/international_guests.shtml) to investigate train timetables.

So what if I stayed in Berlin or Munich and took a train to Auschwitz? Which would be cheaper, how long would I have for the visit on a same day turn around? I am sure that someone on here has done this before or at least knows the drill.

Danger Man: You will experience that we are all quite helpful here. But may I honestly propose that you do some planing for yourself to get a feeling of what you propose to do? There are plenty of useful resources for

Railways: www.bahn.de
LCC: www.airberlin.de, www.centralwings.com, www.germanwings.com, www.tuifly.de and of course Ryanair and Easyjet.

Your latest idea gives evidence that you wasted not really a minute on planing yourself. Berlin to Krakow will be 9 to 12 hours on the train, Munich to Krakow will be in the range of 11 to 13 hours. So a same day turn around is nothing but illusion.

Your latest idea gives evidence that you wasted not really a minute on planing yourself. Berlin to Krakow will be 9 to 12 hours on the train, Munich to Krakow will be in the range of 11 to 13 hours. So a same day turn around is nothing but illusion.

I have been working on this for a month and it seems hectic to me to do all that the "family" wants to do. I used aa.co.uk to find the travel times and it states that Krakow is a 6.5 hour drive from Berlin. When I take vacation in the US we normally drive from about 7:30am until about 8 or 9 at night with some stops and even have driven until midnight to get where we are going. We then spend the next morning sightseeing and then drive again. And you are right it seems that the Mercedes is the best deal around that would meet our size requirements.

I might could do FRA / BER / MUN (dachow) then consider a flight from there to Krakow leaving the car in MUN upon return continue to the alps / black forest areas or FRA / BER / MUN / Alps - Black Forest / Rust / Stuttgart (take a flight from here to Krakow) and then continue on based on time.

Doing it this way might allow the opportunity to NOT go to Krakow on this trip because seeing Dachow might satisfy the concentration camp curiosity for this trip and seeing what else is offered in the southern part of Germany may use up the time sufficiently.

On another note which countries are Schengen boarding Germany? It may be easier just to say which ones are not if it is only Poland.

Thanks for all of your help, planning for Germany is much more difficult than I had expected.

On another note which countries are Schengen boarding Germany? It may be easier just to say which ones are not if it is only Poland.

Thanks for all of your help, planning for Germany is much more difficult than I had expected.

Do you live in the US or the UK? If you live in the UK, the T/A factor goes away.

Schengen borders are Austria, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland. (Don't know about Denmark at the moment). Your car rental agency will probably make you sign all sorts of paperwork, including a liability waiver, to keep you from taking the car into Poland. You inquired as to what countries have car restrictions? Think of all former eastern bloc countries, plus Southern Italy in some cases.

Look at some of the LCC airline options for flying into Krakow, and then everything else you can drive to. You can, if you wish, park your rental car in whatever airport you fly from to Krakow. You will pay parking fees, but still have your car when you get back. Or, arrange it so you can turn your car in at that airport and get another car when you return. If you keep your car and park it in the airport parking garage, you can also store your extra luggage in the trunk and pack light, and not have to lug extra suitcases around for your Poland segment.

I might could do FRA / BER / MUN (dachow) then consider a flight from there to Krakow leaving the car in MUN upon return continue to the alps / black forest areas or FRA / BER / MUN / Alps - Black Forest / Rust / Stuttgart (take a flight from here to Krakow) and then continue on based on time.

This is by far more reasonable and avoids the problem of taking a rented car into Poland. What I would propose - maybe less hectic but maybe more effective:


Drive from FRA to Berlin and continue from there to Dresden, see Dresden, give the car back at the Dresden airport.

Fly on AirBerlin from Dresden to Munich and take another car there. Do whatever you want in Munich (If you plan for Auschwitz I would leave out Dachau). Drive from Munich to Neuschwanstein, Lake Constance (Bodensee), maybe Salzburg (you can do that by train from Munich in about two hours for the cost of about 30 Euro for your full party).

If you are still not tired drive to Stuttgart, give that car back, fly to Krakow for the day or an overnighter.

In general: There aren't any border controls between the continental european countries you would consider to be "West" (except Switzerland) and there are border control at the borders with the former Eastern block countries.

I have always thought it was much more expensive to pick up and drop off and different locations. Am I wrong about this when applying it to Germany? I see you are suggesting basically three different cars. Also we are traveling with luggage and I might have a problem storing it somewhere while we travel out to Aushwitz and back.

I have always thought it was much more expensive to pick up and drop off and different locations. Am I wrong about this when applying it to Germany? I see you are suggesting basically three different cars. Also we are traveling with luggage and I might have a problem storing it somewhere while we travel out to Aushwitz and back.

It makes no difference as long as you keep the car within Germany. You might wish to check the rates on www.sixtusa.com. For a BMW 5 series you pay about 150 Dollars a day or about 300 Dollars for a full weekend (Friday noon to Monday 9 am). Weekly rent is about 800 Dollars. It does not matter where you pick up your car or where you give it back (there is a surcharge when renting at an aiport, about 15 Dollars a day).

I am pretty sure every hotel will store your luggage or you can store it either (when leaving from Stuttgart to Krakow) at Stuttgart Main Station or a the airport. It is a simple mathmatic task: Daily parking at the airport pls. car rent for two days compared to the inconcenience of having your luggage stored somewhere.

What I would try to avoid is the "cross country drive" from the east to Munich. It is about 700 km, so it is 130 Dollars for gas pls the rent for an extra day plus the inconvenience of another day on the road.

Just to give you an idea on a short term Germany trip....

Thursday Night fly EWR-CGN
Friday morning, land, go to hotel, sleep.
Friday afternoon, meet friends for coffee and cake
Friday night drive to Dusseldorf, have dinner, drive back to Cologne.
Saturday morning through afternoon, drive from Cologne to Konstanz (half lazy drive on Rhine and half Autobahn at 200 km/h)
Saturday afternoon, have coffee and cake at relatives.
Saturday evening, dinner with relatives and sightseeing in Konstanz
Sunday Morning, breakfast with relatives, then leave for Neuschwanstein
Sunday afternoon, arrive Neuschwanstein and tour castle
Sunday evening, drive to Munich
Sunday night, dinner in Munich at Hofbrauhaus
Monday morning, tour Munich
Monday afternoon, drive from Munich to Nuremburg, quick drive around Altstadt
Monday evening, drive from Nuremburg to Cologne Airport, have dinner.
Tuesday morning fly home, CGN-EWR.

This trip was 1500 kms and we were in the car constantly (didn't hit much traffic because we drove on weekends and at night during the week). We also drove 180-220 km/h on average when the autobahn allowed us to do so.

We saw a lot, but it would have been nice to stop and "smell the roses or beer" in Munich a little longer.

That was "6" days with 2 days for plane travel.

So keep that in mind.

- HF

We have on two occasions rented from Sixt and drove into Poland. Just make sure you get a car that will allow that.
The German-Polish border is just a formality, you will just get waived through.


The road from Berlin to Krakow is actually very good by Polish standards.
However going to Krakow and then to Auschwitz is backtracking, its on the way if coming from Germany.
If I was to choose Dachau and Auschwitz, I would definetly visit the latter.
Should also spend at least a day in Krakow, its a beautiful city.

We have on two occasions rented from Sixt and drove into Poland. Just make sure you get a car that will allow that.

Right: SIXT will not allow to take Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche and all SUVs/Off-Roads into Poland

The German-Polish border is just a formality, you will just get waived through.

Might happen. But for sure not at the Polish-German border. A familiar example for most of you: For you US guys it is normally no problem to get into Mexico but there are more intensive checks on your way back to the US. The same here. We have plenty of illegal immigration from the East to the West but never v/v.

If I was to choose Dachau and Auschwitz, I would definetly visit the latter. Should also spend at least a day in Krakow, its a beautiful city.

I could not agree more.

Just to give you an idea on a short term Germany trip...

Compared to the the original plan of the OP, your trip is nothing but a recreational trip. 1500 km on a (most of it) six lane German Autobahn cannot be compared to the horror trip the OP planned.

cannot be compared to the horror trip the OP planned.

I still think the OP is Chevy Chase doing research on a the ultimate Griswold film. :cool:

I still think the OP is Chevy Chase doing research on a the ultimate Griswold film. :cool:

Hey, what are you doing here ;) ?

Hey, what are you doing here ;) ?

Being OT, what else? :o
It's the only thing I'm really good at. :)

Being OT, what else? :o
It's the only thing I'm really good at. :)

Rest assured, our moderator will take of you. The OP's plan could be a great script for a roadmovie. Maybe you should get hold of all rights...

Rest assured, our moderator will take of you. The OP's plan could be a great script for a roadmovie. Maybe you should get hold of all rights...

Actually, if the OP is seriously pulling through with this itinerary, we should notify German TV broadcasters, as one of them might be quite interested in sending a TV team to accompany them. No kidding.

Actually, if the OP is seriously pulling through with this itinerary, we should notify German TV broadcasters, as one of them might be quite interested in sending a TV team to accompany them. No kidding.

Ok, but if so, we should convince him to do to Berlin - Krakau - Slovakia - Austria - Munich and all in 40 hours incl. sightseeing. Could be great for VOX or RTL2. And we need five persons in a VW Polo, Renault Twingo or even better MCC Smart :D

Ok, so I need to drop the Poland run all together. I am looking at a Eurorail Pass for Germany and Benelux. It is expensive compared to an auto and we would still need a car for the southern area of Germany according to Eurorail. I think we could FRA-BER on the train and then BER-MUC on the train, pick up a car to do the south across the alps and the black forest, hit the amusement park at rust and drop the car and get back on the train and do some travel up through LUX - BRU - Amsterdam and then back down to FRA all by train. Is this more reasonable or still too much. Dropping all of Poland for this trip and using Dachau as the Concentration Camp experience. Make Poland a trip in a year or two and include the Baltics with that trip. My sons really want to go to Transylvania anyway and we definetly will not get there this year.

Make Poland a trip in a year or two and include the Baltics with that trip. My sons really want to go to Transylvania anyway and we definetly will not get there this year.

Transylvania is in Romania - a long way from Poland and the Baltics.

And what parts of your Southern Germany trip do you think you can't do by train?

I am leaving for Germany next week for an exploratory trip. Just wanting to see as much as I can in a short period of time. Interested in history, old buildings, WW1 & 2, Old Clocks, Crafts, Local Fairs (similar to craft fairs w/ music and fun), Toy makers, all those things that make the countries great. I have 7 full days and I am hiring a car. My thoughts are:
SAT land in Frankfurt EARLY and drive to Berlin, look around that night, see wall and get some rest.

I know I will be tired but I will spend the next week resting in Scotland.

Danger,
I have been to most of the places you have mentioned and think your trip will be quite doable but tiring. I would eliminate Dachau concentration camp outside Munich.
My suggestion
1) frankfurt - berlin - see the wall and 24/7 live party that makes Berlin so exciting.
2) Berlin - Krakow - great ton consider the Cultural Center of Europe. Eat at the basement stone wall restaraunts and then drive to Auschwitz which si amazing.
3) karkow - Praha - Praha is best the city in Europe for yoru dollar. Great bier, castles, concerts, arts and theatre.
3) Praha - Cesky Krumluv located in SW corner of Czech. Little Venice of Eastern Europe.
4) Cesky Krumlov - Munich - check out Marienplatz square, castles, and the neat cafes in Universisat area.
5) Munich - Fusen - Neuschaunstein castle and hike in teh hills behind and ride the ski lift down the mountain.
6) Fusen - Salzberg, Austria - enjoy apfelstrudel, schnaps factories, Hills where Sound of Music was filmed, and beer brewed by the monks.

I prefer staying a few days in the Alps as the small towns have violin maker shops(Garmisch Parkenkirshen) and lots of hiking paths near castles.

send me a email if you want more Germany ideas as I have backpacked in this country 15 times.

Using the trains is starting to make this trip seem plausible. I have driven all of the German legs mentioned by the OP at one time or another and they are LONG. I am not sure about the cost being higher on the trains because the cost of gas in astronomical in Germany compared to the US (even now).

Staying the center of Berlin and using public transport is the way to go there then hoping a train and renting a car for tours around Munich is also a good idea. Saltzberg would make an excellent day trip on the train from Munich. I once took a day trip on the bus from Munich to Rothenberg (famous medieval town, worth a detour) that was fun.

If you want to go all the way north to Amsterdam then consider an open jaw into FRA and out of AMS. Otherwise I would split your time between Berlin and Munich with various side trips. These two cities and environs would provide an excellent comparison of "big city modern Germany" and Barvaria. Then on the train back to FRA and home.

Saltzberg would make an excellent day trip on the train from Munich. I once took a day trip on the bus from Munich to Rothenberg

Could you possibly mean Salzburg and Rothenburg ob der Tauber? :confused:

Could you possibly mean Salzburg and Rothenburg ob der Tauber? :confused:

Yep, sorry -- :(

Yep, sorry -- :(

In this case, I'd recommend to visit the salt mines in Berchtesgaden on the way. It's a cool thing, and the boys will love it.

http://www.salzwelt.de/salzbergwerk-berchtesgaden/en/default.asp

According to "eurorail customer service" via phone, the southern Alps area, Lake Constance, etc.. are best seen by auto and the rest is best visited by train. I have some things that are not flexible and I will list them here so maybe that will help with all of the wonderful help that I am getting and since obviously if I had just took off over there and done the original iten that would have been a big mistake. So here is the list:
1. Land Saturday 27th, morning at 8ish am in FRA.
2. Visit Berlin.
3. Visit either Auschwitz or Dachau.
4. Visit Neuschwanstein Castle.
5. Visit Lake Constance.
6. Go to Amusement Park at Rust.
7. Cross a border (even if only a few feet) (son).
8. Depart FRA on Saturday 2nd at 3ish.

All other things are desires and wishes, like eat good food, visit craft makers, festival, castles, museums, etc..

According to "eurorail customer service" via phone, the southern Alps area, Lake Constance, etc.. are best seen by auto and the rest is best visited by train. I have some things that are not flexible and I will list them here so maybe that will help with all of the wonderful help that I am getting and since obviously if I had just took off over there and done the original iten that would have been a big mistake. So here is the list:
1. Land Saturday 27th, morning at 8ish am in FRA.
2. Visit Berlin.
3. Visit either Auschwitz or Dachau.
4. Visit Neuschwanstein Castle.
5. Visit Lake Constance.
6. Go to Amusement Park at Rust.
7. Cross a border (even if only a few feet) (son).
8. Depart FRA on Saturday 2nd at 3ish.

All other things are desires and wishes, like eat good food, visit craft makers, festival, castles, museums, etc..

I've been to Dachau but never Auschwitz. Dachau was, at the very least, a sobering experience. I'm sure Auschwitz is as well, but what do you and your family want to get out of the concentration camp experience? That may sound strange, but I think that either would be adequate. Dachau is, practically, much closer to the rest of your itinerary.

How serious of a border does your son want to cross? Germany-Austria is simple, but no passport stamps. Just a sign. Germany to Poland or Czech, you might be sitting in traffic for a while for the privlidge of turning around and going back into Germany. And, you will be subjecting yourself to curious German border police who will not comprehend why anyone would want to go 100 feet into Poland or Czech, probably not even get a passport stamp, and then come right back. I had my passport stamped taking the train into Poland, but never when driving into Czech.

He wants to do it for the sole purpose of collecting "passport stamps". I told him I didn't want to do it and he said we could do it like at the Mexican border. Park walk across get stamped and walk back across. So you are telling me that he will not get a stamp?

To actually see what a concentration camp looked like. My sons are tops in their class on history. This largely due to the fact that they have visited the places that they study and understand it better. To read about history is one thing, to be told about it is another, to go where it happened puts a strong impression in ones mind.

To actually see what a concentration camp looked like. My sons are tops in their class on history. This largely due to the fact that they have visited the places that they study and understand it better. To read about history is one thing, to be told about it is another, to go where it happened puts a strong impression in ones mind.

Auschwitz will leave a far stronger "impression" on your sons than Dachau ever would, I can guarantee you that.

He wants to do it for the sole purpose of collecting "passport stamps". I told him I didn't want to do it and he said we could do it like at the Mexican border. Park walk across get stamped and walk back across. So you are telling me that he will not get a stamp?

To actually see what a concentration camp looked like. My sons are tops in their class on history. This largely due to the fact that they have visited the places that they study and understand it better. To read about history is one thing, to be told about it is another, to go where it happened puts a strong impression in ones mind.

You got a stamp at the Mexican border? I remember walking past a bored, sleepy Mexican ?immigration officer?

Taking the train into Poland (Poznan) from Berlin about three years ago, I got a German exit / entry and Polish entry / exit stamp in Frankfurt/Oder. The stamp is similar to the airports except in place of the little airplane there is a train. The Polish one is unique. Driving into Czech at least twice to Plzen, I never got a stamp, only German border guards looking through my car.

In truth, I've never gotten a Swiss stamp either.

I can't speak for Auschwitz, as I've not been there. Dachau has a very moving display, but is probably not as large as Auschwitz.

My biggest problem right now is not knowing German. I can't find an English language site that will let me determine how much a train from FRA to Krakow on Satuday would be. I have been trying to determine a price and travel time and I can't find either.

My biggest problem right now is not knowing German. I can't find an English language site that will let me determine how much a train from FRA to Krakow on Satuday would be. I have been trying to determine a price and travel time and I can't find either.

www.bahn.de has a tab in the upper right corner(IIRC) of the website that says something like "international visitors". Choosing this then gives you the English version of the site.

I can't believe you've done a month's worth research and haven't figured out the DB website yet. The site is a pain as far as navigation, but actually finding train schedules and purchasing tickets is pretty simple.

Also, I can't imagine only having a week in Germany and trying to fit in everything you are still proposing to do. I spent a week in Germany and felt rushed and we only did Berlin and Munich. I'm not really sure what the allure of Berlin is for so many people. I found it rather boring. It is a run-of-the-mill large city. I'm not a big nightlife person, so perhaps that's it.

What is the current per liter or per gallon price in Germany?

What is the current per liter or per gallon price in Germany?

1.85 Dollars per Liter (or: 1,36 Euro). Enjoy!

And a normal Mercedes needs about 10 Liters on 100 km. Ask for a Diesel car. Diesel is about 1.50 Dollars per Liter, the car will need about 8 Liters on 100 km.

What is the current per liter or per gallon price in Germany?
You can get an idea of prices for diesel and unleaded across Europe here:
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/

This works out to about 6.21 miles per gallon on the Mercedes. Is it really that bad on fuel consumption?

10 liters is about 2.5 gallons

100km is about 60 miles

60/2.5 = about 24mpg

reasonable for hiway driving

but you won't get it at 200km/h!

Ok, lets think:

Driving from Frankfurt to Berlin seems to be doable and with the five of you it seems to be reasonable:

surviving portions of the Berline Wall
German Museum of Technology Berlin,
German Historical Museum,
Mauermuseum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie
and the Reichstag




... thereby missing the museum island with some rather impressive antiques collections, one of the main attractions in Berlin if you ask me.

Krakau is one of the most beautifil cities in Poland and limiting it to Auschwitz would be a shame.

+1 to that.

I'd say that sightseeing in Kraków and Berlin alone are enough to easily fill a week trip.

According to "eurorail customer service" via phone, the southern Alps area, Lake Constance, etc.. are best seen by auto and the rest is best visited by train.

Agreed, the trains in the Schwarzwald (Black Forest) are not ICE trains, they are Regional Bahn and very slow. I once did Cologne-Konstanz by train and it was a 2 switch trip (Baden-Baden and Singen).

Konstanz is on a peninsula, between the Bodensee (Lake Constance) and Switzerland. The rail line to Konstanz is on a spur and any train out of Konstanz to any major German City has to connect in Singen or Stuttgart to get to the main rain network. I think the only nonstop train to a major city is via Swissrail Thurbo to Zurich. Car is just as pretty and fast....if you rent a car get a diesel!!! Diesel fuel is cheaper in Europe (about 20 cents a litre) and you get 20-40% increase in gas mileage.

On my 1500 km trip I only spent 150 euros on gas and I wasn't driving for fuel economy, if you catch my drift! :)

Flying Lawyer, I know my trip in Jan was not as hectic as OP's, but it sure wasn't a complete breather either. The A3 had some construction between Nuremberg and Frankfurt :cool:

- HF

to the OP:

i also think your distance perceptions are way way off

it may help for you to overlay a map of germany on a same-scale USA map (if you are an american)

germany sort of looks like it should be the same size as new jersey

but its 500 miles north to south

and each area is so rich by itself, you may be missing things of interest:

"26-29 May 2007 (Every year)

Providing a welcome breath of fresh air in the city, Frankfurt's annual Waeldchestag folk festival is set amidst the tranquility of the surrounding forest in Niederrad, offering plenty of traditional festivities and entertainment to occupy the whole family.

Among the main attractions are a fairground, market, shows and a variety of different games. For those that want to take things a little slower, there is an open-air summer garden where visitors can enjoy local specialities and live music in a beautiful setting, just a stone's throw away from the hustle and bustle of the city."

are you arriving sat 26? stay in FRA and avoid the long drive on the same day

visit the fair and adjust to the time

try www.whatsonwhen.com for other ideas

It looks like a combination of rail car would be best option. I could night train FRA to Krakow and Krakow to Berlin and even Berlin to the southern area(berlin munich sold out already). But I am not too sure how I would feel not getting to stretch out in a hotel room for the night and use a private bath for that many days. Has anyone actually done the Night trains that I am talking about. They say some are compartments, some are couchettes and some are reclining seats, they don't what for sure will be on any particular route.

It looks like a combination of rail car would be best option. I could night train FRA to Krakow and Krakow to Berlin and even Berlin to the southern area(berlin munich sold out already). But I am not too sure how I would feel not getting to stretch out in a hotel room for the night and use a private bath for that many days. Has anyone actually done the Night trains that I am talking about. They say some are compartments, some are couchettes and some are reclining seats, they don't what for sure will be on any particular route.

Wouldn't do that for all money in the world. AND: LCC should and even LH or LOT might be cheeper.

I have travelled on night trains in Germany. I would have no hesitation doing it one night at a time, I wouldn't want to do it consecutive times.

As you said, there are generally three types of accommodation (and most trains have all three) - seats, couchettes and sleeper compartments.

A seat is just that.

A couchette is a bunk - so you can lie down. There are usually six bunks in a compartment, three on each side, and you are provided with pillows and blankets. The bunks are quite narrow, but other than that they are reasonably comfortable. There are no washing facilities in couchettes other than the washrooms at the end of the carriage.

Sleepers are like cabins on a ferry. You still sleep in bunks, but there are only two or three per compartment. You get proper beds with bedclothes (not just blankets), and there is at least a washbasin in the compartment - newer trains have showers.

You're not going to get an uninterrupted night's sleep on a train as there are lots of disruptions like station announcements. As I said, it's fine for one night at a time but you really want to sleep in a proper bed the night before and the night after.

I am going to spend all day working on a different schedule. I like the idea of taking in the festival in Frankfurt prior to heading out. I am going to look and see if it is better to go south first or go to Berlin first. This has turned out to be more complicated than I originally thought. Anyone know of any other events that are taking place in the area the last week of May?

I am going to spend all day working on a different schedule.

Since you've already done so much planning (?) the following site may be redundant - but I think the map provides some good hints about the wealth of places to explore in the area around Frankfurt, for example:
http://www.germany-tourism.de/

I would suggest that you avoid planning the entire week. Simply make a plan for your arrival day at FRA and play it by ear after that. I think when you get there and spend your first day looking around, the possibilities will become much clearer.

If you end up spending the entire week in the Rhineland - or splitting your time between there and Bavaria - you will have a very full, enjoyable and worthwhile experience. If you set off on a hell-trip around all of central europe with barely any time to stop in one place, you will just exhaust yourself and have few enjoyable experiences.

I have looked at rail and car and there are big differences such as price. Rail is 1300 and car is 230 for the same period.

With the train we are at the mercy of the schedule somewhat and night trains are not what I desire on a vacation that much. We have to deal with storing or dragging our luggage around. We cannot detour or delay where the train doesn't stop and we would still have to hire a car in the south for what we want to do. We would be limited to walking distance or taxi which is more expense. Positive is that we would not have to drive much and could go to Auschwitz.

With the car we can drive and stop as we please. If we see something that interest us we can detour and see it. We will miss out on Auschwitz and will have to do some driving and pay for fuel. I really doubt that fuel is going to be over a thousand dollars for our trip.

So here is what I feel right now will be the best:
SAT - land in FRA take in the Wäldchestag Folk Festival and get a good nights rest in Frankfurt.
SUN - drive to Berlin and if any museums are open when we arrive visit them or just takes some night photos.
MON - visit a museum or two and head south toward Salzberg for the night.
TUE - visit dachau and head down to Neuschwanstein Castle and get a room for the night.
WED - visit Neuschwanstein Castle and the other one in the area and then drive toward Lake Konstanz and then find a hotel somewhere between there and Rust.
THU - take the boys to the amusement park at Rust and then drive across the border to France for the night.
FRI - drive up toward Luxembourg and depending on time maybe even Brussels.
SAT - drive to FRA for departure at 3:30 in the evening.

I am figuring about a 7 hour drive FRA - BER and 9 hours to Salzberg Austria.

I have dropped the idea of going to any of the car factories and if I don't make it to Rust until Friday that is fine and if that is the last thing I do before heading to Frankfurt that is fine as well. For Monday or Tuesday night I am looking at Dresden, Munich, Salzburg for overnights and I have even considered a drive down to Innsbruck as well. Not sure how that is going to pan out.

germany sort of looks like it should be the same size as new jersey

but its 500 miles north to south

and each area is so rich by itself, you may be missing things of interest:

I was rather interested in this idea.

From the sources that I checked, it seems that Germany's land area is roughly 120 times the size of New Jersey. It is about the same size as Montana ... but it's considerably more densely populated than Montana.

So here is what I feel right now will be the best:
SAT - land in FRA take in the Wäldchestag Folk Festival and get a good nights rest in Frankfurt.
SUN - drive to Berlin and if any museums are open when we arrive visit them or just takes some night photos.

So far so good.

MON - visit a museum or two and head south toward Salzberg for the night.

Most museums are closed on Mondays - BUT if you're talking about Monday 28 May (which is a public holiday this year) then some museums may be open.

I presume you mean Salzburg. That's a LONG drive from Berlin. Why go all the way down there, and then back up again to the Munich area? Would it not make sense to stay somewhere the Munich side of Berlin?

And you're not really allowing yourself time to see much of Berlin...

TUE - visit dachau and head down to Neuschwanstein Castle and get a room for the night.

Sounds OK.

WED - visit Neuschwanstein Castle and the other one in the area and then drive toward Lake Konstanz and then find a hotel somewhere between there and Rust.

By the time you've visited two castles most of the day will be gone. I would either stop on the lake overnight, OR give the lake a miss and head straight towards Rust.

THU - take the boys to the amusement park at Rust and then drive across the border to France for the night.

Going to France to say you've been, right?

FRI - drive up toward Luxembourg and depending on time maybe even Brussels.

The Luxembourg bit seems reasonable. I'd forget about Brussels, especially on a Friday afternoon when traffic is going to pretty horrific. Brussels traffic is a nightmare at the best of times. If you want to go to Belgium there are plenty of nice places nearer to Luxembourg - such as Namur.

SAT - drive to FRA for departure at 3:30 in the evening.

Don't underestimate the time that will take you, especially if you decide to stick with the Brussels plan.

It's starting to sound more reasonable, but I think you're still underestimating travel times, and you're still not allowing yourself any time to actually SEE the places you are planning to visit.

Just started following this thread and must say that I'm exhausted from just reading it!!!

I've been to all of the primary sights you have on your itinerary, including Berlin, Krakow/Auschwitz, Munich/Neuschwenstein. I'm a 27 year old male with lots of energy and looking at your itin, I will tell you bluntly that what you are attempting to do is CRAZY!!!

Given your kids love for WWII history and their burning desire to go to Poland, I would recommend you focus on just two cities; Berlin and Krakow.
You can easily spend three days exploring Berlin. For WWII/Communist era history, check out Checkpoint Charlie, Topography of Horrors/Remnants of the Wall/Wall of Terror, Kaiser-Wilhelm Gedachtniskirc, Jewish Museum (1/2 day). Then there is the Reichstag, Brandenburg Gates, Kreuzberg, Museum Island, Charlottenburg, Unter den Linden, Ku'dam...the list is endless.

Krakow is the only Polish city which was not destroyed during WWII. You need at least a day to explore the city. Definately check out Kazimierz, the former Jewish district. Home of over a hundred thousand Jews before the war, there are now less than a thousand. The area was a ghetto up until the fall of communism and still remains a little rough around the edges but is quickly becoming gentrified. Note that Schindlers List was largely shot in Kazimierz.

Auschwitz/Birkenau is a full day trip from Krakow. I took a bus tour which had its benefits but there were times that I would have preferred to be alone with my thoughts. It is a study in contrast, starkly beautiful yet horrific in its magnitude. It will shake you to the core and leave you an emotional wreck when you see the atrocities and sheer number of people slaughtered.

Another trip from Krakow which takes at least half a day is the Wieliczka salt mines. Absolutely beautiful. If I remember correctly, all three of these suggestions are UNESCO world heritage sights.

There you go. Two cities, two countries, more WWII history than you can ever hope to absorb. To do more will simply cost more money, leave you exhausted and shortchange everyone of the vast amount of history that these two cities have to offer.

Forget about train service between the two cities. It is 10-12 hours on the overnight train and I know LCCs serve this route...I flew EasyJet Krakow to Berlin. BTW, Krakow is still relatively cheap although prices are going up quickly. It is very interesting to see the country evolve since its introduction into the EU 3 years ago.

Let's just say for a moment that I would take a train or plane from either Frankfurt, Berlin or Dresden to Krakow, which carrier offers a low price and which city would give the best price? I can get a Germany only Europass for about 900 dollars and that would alleviate driving until I am down around Munich that would also eliminate parking fees at the hotels as they are steep around 40 to 50 USD. I know now I can stay free in Prague at the Hilton and just pay 27 Euro for parking, so I would not be staying in Salzburg or Munich. Now if I could just find a good fare from Berlin or Dresden on Monday to Krakow with a return to MUC cheap and p/u the car rental on TUE.

I cannot find an LCC that fly to KRK from Dresden or Berlin or even MUC so I must be missing something. There should be a service like Expedia for that area that includes LCC airlines. Any ideas?

Air Berlin does not fly to KRK.
Germanwings fly to KRK from Stuttgart on MON THU & SAT Only.
Easyjet has to connect in London. VERY EXPENSIVE
Euroflightpass is 200 per person from Brussels.
LOT is unbelievably expensive (thousands).

How long would it take to drive from Dresden to KRK? Train is 5 hours and 600USD round trip for the family. Plus parking the car in Dresden.

Germanwings also flys to KRK from Berlin and MUC as far as I can tell. Interesting that EasyJet no longer flies Berlin-KRK...although it appears they do have service from Dortmund:confused: You could also look at LH, although the odds of cheap last-minute tickets would be slim.

Although improving rapidly with the influx of billions of EU dollars, the infrastructure (ie, highways, train service, airports) in Poland is very poor compared to western Europe. Even the road from Krakow to Auschwitz is little more than a rural route and your route may on occasion be impinged by horse and cart.

If the train is 5 hours, I would say budget at at least the same drive-time, not to mention potential delays at the border. Make sure you have a security alarm...in Krakow, you will find gleaming Porsches and BMWs alongside vintage Soviet-era beaters. The nicer the car, the greater the temptation...

It is truly a beautiful city but don't forget that they are only 15 years post-communism...Rome wasn't built in a day. But for the lack of infrastructure, they are extremely well educated and some of the most friendly people you will ever meet.

This website ( https://www.germanwings.com/index.en.shtml ) does not offer a KRK option. Where do I find that option?

Would I be better off to just leave out Poland until next year and fly to Poland or some other Eastern Block country and do a two week run from say Scandinavia through the Baltics down to Romania?

Would I be better off to just leave out Poland until next year and fly to Poland or some other Eastern Block country and do a two week run from say Scandinavia through the Baltics down to Romania?


No I second the opinion from a few posts up, focus on Berlin and Krakow. They are the most interesting cities out of the ones you mentioned.

Take the overnight train, your family can probably book a compartment just for yourselves. The ticket is ~110 Euro round trip + sleeper supplement per person. There is also an overnight bus that leaves Berlin at 23:15 for about the same price


FWIW, Easyjet pulled out from the route last year, GermanWings never flew to KRK from Berlin, Directfly (http://www.directfly.pl) did fly this route, but has recently suspended operations temporarily per its website.

This website ( https://www.germanwings.com/index.en.shtml ) does not offer a KRK option. Where do I find that option?

I thought I just had this on the germanwings website...must have been imagining things. :confused: ...sounds like the train is your best option then, unless you can get something cheap on LH (highly unlikely).

I thought I just had this on the germanwings website...must have been imagining things. :confused: ...sounds like the train is your best option then, unless you can get something cheap on LH (highly unlikely).

Germanwings.com shows KRK, ex Cologne (CGN) and Stuttgart (STR) into Krakow.

And you might wish to check Wizz.air (www.wizz.pl). They fly from CGN, Dortmund (DTM) and Frankfurt-Hahn into Kattowitz. Be aware: Frankfurt-Hahn is NOT the same airport as Frankfurt-International, but they have three flights a week. One way is about 400 PLN, this 100 Euro. This could be the most convenient for your purpose - If you want to start in FRA anway, Hahn is about 40 minutes out of town. Kattowitz is 70 km from Krakow and about 35 km from Auschwitz.

Directfly has a service from Krakow into Berlin starting June 4 three times a week. So you could fly ex Frankfurt-Hahn on Wizz-Air into Kattowitz, visit that city, drive to Auschwitz and return to Berlin on Directfly via Krakow. 70 km does not sound to bad, even on streets in southern Poland (and buy me a beer for advise).

Directfly has a service from Berlin into Kattowitz which is about 70 km from Krakow and 35 km from Auschwitz. It could be a perfect flight for you.

Directfly is dead for now

Directfly is dead for now

At least the service is still listed on the website of KRK:

http://www.lotnisko-balice.pl/

Would be too bad, so we only have WIZZ into Kattowitz, Germanwings and Easyjet into KRK as competitors of LOT/LH. But wouldn't you agree, Hahn to Kattowitz would do the trick for the OP?

At least the service is still listed on the website of KRK:

http://www.lotnisko-balice.pl/

Would be too bad, so we only have WIZZ into Kattowitz, Germanwings and Easyjet into KRK as competitors of LOT/LH. But wouldn't you agree, Hahn to Kattowitz would do the trick for the OP?

"Further to the statement of 27 April 2007 posted on Direct Fly’s website, we would like to note that Direct Fly flights have been suspended temporarily and will be resumed as soon as possible."

Yeah I agree it is too bad, I have family in KRK area, and used the Easyjet service from Berlin before and Germanwings from CGN too.

If the OP is not taking the train, I would agree with the Hahn option either into Katowice on Wizz or KRK with Ryanair (although I personally wouldnt fly them) Wizz on the other hand is a class act in the LCC league

Wonderful prices if you can fly on Monday or Wednesday. But if you fly out on Monday you cannot come back until Wednesday. They only fly there three times a week. They are just killing me with these limited schedules.

Wonderful prices if you can fly on Monday or Wednesday. But if you fly out on Monday you cannot come back until Wednesday. They only fly there three times a week. They are just killing me with these limited schedules.

The Monday flight is an evening flight. You'd have Tuesday to visit Auschwitz (others have indicated that this is something for which you should allow a full day), and a little bit of time Wednesday morning to explore Krakow before heading back to Katowice for the early afternoon flight back to Germany.

How much LESS time did you think you were going to need?

How much LESS time did you think you were going to need?

See all of Europe in 6 days....:D

See all of Europe in 6 days....:D

He should ask Kiwi Flyer.
He could do the OP's trip in an afternoon.
KF wouldn't leave the airport, though.
Probably wouldn't leave the plane. :D

I am working on transportation around Berlin. I can't seem to figure out where Berlin Hbp is. I found a Potsdam Hbf south west of Center. What I am working on now is what stations are near Checkpoint Charlie, Reichstag & Museum Island. Also how far a walk from the S-Bahn to these locations it is. All I want to do at Checkpoint Charlie is take a picture and maybe spend 30 minutes looking around. Reichstag is just to take a picture and then spend the rest of my time at the museums.

I know you feel I should spend a day or more in KRK but the fact is I can't do everything that I would like to do anyway. If I at least visit KRK and tour Auschwitz I can always schedule a trip next year to go back. At least I will get a small taste of what it is like. I could spend a day at Auschwitz but the fact is I will only spend about 4 hours. So if I can't work it out as a one day only in KRK, I would be forced to bypass it all together and go straight from Berlin to the south. My main focus on this trip is the southern region. All the Berlin and KRK is on this trip is to get an idea of what I could come back for. The first time I visited London, I was there for 6 hours and left. Since that time many years ago, I have spent many weeks in London. Same goes for DUB, I landed and drove through the heart of town and headed south without even stopping. My first trip to an area is to get a feel for it and what I might want to spend more time doing.

The Hauptbahnhof (Hbf) is located north of the Potsdamer Platz station, as seen on the map lnked below (opens as a .pdf file):

http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/Common/Document/field/file/id/1398

IIRC Checkpoint Charlie is on the U6 line at the Kockstrasse station (take the S-Bahn one stop east to Freidrichstrasse, go from the elevated platform downstairs to the U-Bahn, then take Line 6 to the Checkpoint).

Easiest access from the Hbf to Museum Insel is to take the TXL Express bus from the back entrance of the Hbf directly to the museum area (you get the bonus of a short ride down Unter den Linden) :)

From the Hbf, the Reichstag is walkable.

Is the S-Bahn as regular as the London Underground?

Found it, that doesn't look like it would take more than about 15 minutes to get from Hbf to Checkpoint Charlie. Am I to understand that the Reichstag is located at the Hbf?

The Reichstag is on the other side of the river, maybe the equivalent of four or five blocks.

Look at this Google map (switch to hybrid view, then drag (or "push-drag") the photo so that it moves in a downward direction - the Reichstag's glass dome will be easily seen slightly to the right and below the Hbf):


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Hauptbahnhof+-+Lehrter+Bahnhof+station,+Germany&sll=52.391247,13.065179&sspn=0.009546,0.022659&ie=UTF8&cd=2&ll=52.523676,13.369524&spn=0.009518,0.022659&t=h&z=16&om=1

I am working on transportation around Berlin. I can't seem to figure out where Berlin Hbp is. I found a Potsdam Hbf south west of Center. What I am working on now is what stations are near Checkpoint Charlie, Reichstag & Museum Island. Also how far a walk from the S-Bahn to these locations it is. All I want to do at Checkpoint Charlie is take a picture and maybe spend 30 minutes looking around. Reichstag is just to take a picture and then spend the rest of my time at the museums.

Check that thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=673825

I am living in Berlin and would consider everything you mentioned to be in walking distance.

Start at Berlin Hauptbahnhof (or: HBF) NOT HBP. Walk to the Reichstag (10 Minutes), walk to (through) Brandenburg Gate, walk up Unter den Linden up to junction with Friedrichstraße (15 minutes). Turn right into Fridrichstraße, two blocks up, turn left one block to Gendarmenmarkt (one of the most beautiful square in Europe) (10 minutes) turn left again back to Friedrichstraße and continue walk to Checkpoint Charlie (10 minutes), turn around and walk back to the junction Unter den Linden / Friedrichstraße, turn right and pass the University Building, the State Opera, the Guardhouse until you see the impressive Berlin Cathedrale to your left and the former east German parliament (a ruin) to your right. Cross the bridge and you will see Museumsinsel (15 minutes).

You did not mention the Holocaust memorial which is quite impressive (as big as a football field) and which is 10 minutes away from Brandenburg gate. BTW: Potsdam Hauptbahnhof is about 40 minutes out of Berlin in the City of Potsdam with plenty of impressive castles and palaces. You could spend an entire week (or lets say three days) in Potsdam

Well here is my latest thoughts, remembering that most of this is to get a taste and then go back later for a longer trip in the areas:
SAT - Frankfurt and the festival
SUN - train to Berlin arrives at 11 walk to Reichstag, checkpoint charlie and museum island. Leave on train at 5 for overnight to Krakow.
MON - Auschwitz and Krakow, overnight in Krakow.
TUE - Early train to Berlin with a delay for next train to Munich.
WED - Get a little sleep since the train arrives at 12:43 in the morning and then get a car when they open at 7 and drive down to Neucschwanstein Castle and that other one down there. Then start driving toward Lake Konstance.
THU - Continue driving through the Alps to Rust.
FRI - Amusement Park and then drive up to town where the TU144 is at.
SAT - Make a quick visit to museum before heading to the airport for flight at 3:30.

Well here is my latest thoughts, remembering that most of this is to get a taste and then go back later for a longer trip in the areas:
SAT - Frankfurt and the festival

OK so far.

SUN - train to Berlin arrives at 11 walk to Reichstag, checkpoint charlie and museum island. Leave on train at 5 for overnight to Krakow.

As long as you don't intend to actually VISIT any museums, and as long as you don't mind missing the rest of Berlin, this sounds perfectly reasonable.

MON - Auschwitz and Krakow, overnight in Krakow.

A bit short, but I guess that's all you have time for...

TUE - Early train to Berlin with a delay for next train to Munich.

Sounds ok.

WED - Get a little sleep since the train arrives at 12:43 in the morning and then get a car when they open at 7 and drive down to Neucschwanstein Castle and that other one down there. Then start driving toward Lake Konstance.

I think "get a little sleep" should really read "get VERY little sleep". Personally I would not want to hit the rush hour in a strange town with a car full of kids after travelling all day the day before AND getting what is probably a maximum of five hours' sleep.

THU - Continue driving through the Alps to Rust.

Getting to Rust from Lake Constance via the Alps would involve quite a long detour...

FRI - Amusement Park and then drive up to town where the TU144 is at.

It's do-able - but do bear in mind that traffic is going to be extremely heaving on a Friday afternoon.

SAT - Make a quick visit to museum before heading to the airport for flight at 3:30.

If ALL you want to do is see the TU144 then I guess that's do-able. However, there is SO much see at that museum, especially for children, that going there for just an hour would really be a wasted opportunity. We spent over half a day there last year and could easily have spent a whole day or more.

I came onto this thread a little late, but may I say that I think that you will have an exhausting, disappointing trip, which only reinforces stereotypes about Germany and Europe.

Last summer I was 'home' for 10 days, on a driving tour of my corner of Bavaria. I could barely fit in all the sites I wanted to see in 10 days, and that was revisiting places I have seen many times in my life.

I agree - this is a remake of the Griswald's European Vacation, isn't it??

And from what I understand, Europapark is sprawling, and a remake of a lot of rides from Disneyworld. I would recommend a more local park, representative of the culture, such as Maerchenpark Ruhpolding.

Ok so I drop Berlin and go straight to Krakow. I will still have the same layover so that stop is going to happen unless I just go south and forget Berlin. I can't miss Berlin because that is my wife's only request.

So I could skip Krakow and go straight south to Munich and go to Dachau but everyone seems to feel that Aushwitz it much more meaningful and a quick visit to Krakow is better than none and would help encourage a return visit for a longer stay.

Now as far as what I do in the Bavarian region, I only have one required destination and that is Neuschwanstein Castle. The rest is just seeing the country side. I could drop the amusement park at Rust.

So what is the opinion of Europa Park? I could skip it and spend more time at the museum with the TU144 at it. I have found an amusement park in Scotland to meet that requirement.

Now as far as what I do in the Bavarian region, I only have one required destination and that is Neuschwanstein Castle. The rest is just seeing the country side. I could drop the amusement park at Rust.

So what is the opinion of Europa Park? I could skip it and spend more time at the museum with the TU144 at it. I have found an amusement park in Scotland to meet that requirement.

For Bavaria, I would recommend some scenic drives, but again, the best cannot be done in the time you have allotted yourself. I like to stay near Garmisch Partenkirchen for a few nights, and drive to Oberammergau, Schloss Linderhof, etc. I also like Chiemsee for an outing, with a trip to Herrenchiemsee and the Fraueninsel. Berchtesgaden and Koenigsee are also worth a visit, but also off the beaten path. Since I lived at the last exit before the border to Salzburg, I know this area very well. While distances may not be far on the map, some of the smaller roads take longer to drive.

I really suggest that you drop Europa Park, and if you do need a theme park, look at options like I suggested earlier. Germany still has some wonderful 'story book' parks which died out in North America in the 1970's and 1980's. Maerchenpark Ruhpolding was a fixture of my childhood, and they have expanded since then. It could take up a few hours on a drive from East to West in Bavaria.

I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but www.linksundrechts.com has an English function and is invaluable to anyone driving the Autobahn.

These are two seperate parks between Munich and Salzburg. Which one is better? It also appears that you have to buy points and use the points to ride. So that works out to a pay as you ride type plan. Hate those, I like to pay 15 or 20 euro and ride anything as much as you want.

The Ruhpolding one is outside the quaint town, a little bit off the A8, and therefore quite convenient if you are going to be near that stretch of the Autobahn.

It IS geared more towards younger children, with some attractions based on Struwwelpeter (ask me how my parents stopped me from sucking my thumb :eek: )

You won't find thrill rides here, but a lot of Bavarian families enjoying a day out in the woods and fresh air, enjoying some more traditional rides and attractions.

I can't think of any German theme park matching American theme parks. After all, this is one of the things Americans do best.

Warner Bros Movie World, Phantasialand and Europapark Rust certainly don't match Disney, Magic Mountain or Universal Studios. I'd recommend to spend the very short time you are in Germany with stuff the Germans do best.

Well here is my latest thoughts, remembering that most of this is to get a taste and then go back later for a longer trip in the areas:
SAT - Frankfurt and the festival
SUN - train to Berlin arrives at 11 walk to Reichstag, checkpoint charlie and museum island. Leave on train at 5 for overnight to Krakow.
MON - Auschwitz and Krakow, overnight in Krakow.
TUE - Early train to Berlin with a delay for next train to Munich.
WED - Get a little sleep since the train arrives at 12:43 in the morning and then get a car when they open at 7 and drive down to Neucschwanstein Castle and that other one down there. Then start driving toward Lake Konstance.
THU - Continue driving through the Alps to Rust.
FRI - Amusement Park and then drive up to town where the TU144 is at.
SAT - Make a quick visit to museum before heading to the airport for flight at 3:30.

Execpt the fact, that you will enjoy most of your vacation on trains.... It adds up to about 35 hours time on the trains. FRA- BER - KRK - BER - MUC. Why not at least FLY from FRA to KRK and do train tortur with a cogent stopover in Berlin on your way back? This might safe you a full day.

WARNING - This coming weekend is the German World Cup soccer finals. It is in Berlin (I think on Sunday the 27th). People who know Berlin better than I do can tell you what the city will be like then - but I assume it will be a madhouse.

Note that we are arriving in Berlin on the 27th. All the rooms at our hotel were sold out the evening of the 26th when I made our plans a while back - but there are now some rooms available (guess some people whose teams didn't make it to the finals cancelled their reservations). So I made a red-eye arrival reservation for the 26th yesterday.

Also note that we are spending 2 weeks in Germany in 3 cities (6 days in Berlin). Our idea of travel is a lot more leisurely than yours - so I can't comment on your plans - simply not our cup of tea. Robyn

P.S. I checked - and the matches (men's and women's) are on the 26th. I assume that a lot of people will be leaving Berlin on the 27th.

Execpt the fact, that you will enjoy most of your vacation on trains.... It adds up to about 35 hours time on the trains. FRA- BER - KRK - BER - MUC. Why not at least FLY from FRA to KRK and do train tortur with a cogent stopover in Berlin on your way back? This might safe you a full day.
All 5 train tickets for unlimited travel in Germany and Poland with reservations is $1200.00 USD and meets our schedule. Wizz only flies from FRA to KRK and no LCC flies from SXF to KRK. LOT is over 2k per person. No solution by air would do FRA to SXF and KRK for anywhere close to 400.00 USD per person.

I may have missed it, but can the OP summarize the desired outcome of this vacation? is it to say 'been there' to as many places as possible? to satisfy all members of the family? to torture them with boring train travel? ;)

Perhaps if you restate the goal we can try and get you onto the best track

All 5 train tickets for unlimited travel in Germany and Poland with reservations is $1200.00 USD and meets our schedule. Wizz only flies from FRA to KRK and no LCC flies from SXF to KRK. LOT is over 2k per person. No solution by air would do FRA to SXF and KRK for anywhere close to 400.00 USD per person.

Depending on the ages of your children - you can get much better deals for unlimited first class train travel only in Germany (if you look into "twin passes" and discounts for children). The passes generally do not include sleeper cars. You have to buy them before you leave the US (although they can be overnighted to you). When I first started planning my trip - I thought about going to Poland too - but the logistics were tiresome. Better to save another country for another day. If you are interested in a rail pass - let me know and I can give you the name of the company I bought mine from.

Like exbayern - I really have to ask myself what is the purpose of your trip. You seem to be going to a lot of concentration camps for a short trip. You mentioned in a prior message that your children would find Dachau meaningful. Now I don't know whether you are Jewish. I am. Or whether you are American. I am. And my trip centers around 2 themes. First - the reunification of Germany. I am 60 - and for almost all of my life - Germany was a divided country - and Berlin was a divided city. I think that now is a good time to explore the impact of reunification (which has had its ups and downs since it took place).

Second - the revival of Jewish life in Germany. Germany had a pre WWII Jewish population of about 500,000 and now - for the first time since WWII - the Jewish population is over 100,000 (albeit with the help of a lot of Russian immigrants). I know the Holocaust happened (it happened to part of my family). I don't need to visit a bunch of old buildings in a concentration camp to remind me. What I would rather see are what I think will be more interesting testimonials to the grimness of the past - like the new Jewish Museum in Berlin. And encouraging aspects of the present and future (like the new synagogue in Munich and the curious popularity of Klezmer music in the country as a whole).

One can never forget - the Holocaust - the Berlin Wall - anything - but the world - and Germany - move forward. If I were taking children who were old enough to comprehend these things - that is the message I'd like to instill in them. To remember the past - to understand the present - and to plan for the future. So I would arrange your trip - even though it is short and hurried by my standards - a bit differently. Robyn

Any advice on hotels in poland? I am trying to find the best website for searching that area. Not too much luck. I want something near the train station walking distance. Something inexpensive since I will probably have to have two rooms for the 5 of us. I have found a Hotel Polonia which has rooms with and without baths.

All 5 train tickets for unlimited travel in Germany and Poland with reservations is $1200.00 USD and meets our schedule. Wizz only flies from FRA to KRK and no LCC flies from SXF to KRK. LOT is over 2k per person. No solution by air would do FRA to SXF and KRK for anywhere close to 400.00 USD per person.

That was the background of my proposal to do fly from FRA to Poland and thake the train back. But however: Enjoy the trains, it is excellent German engeneering and you will have plenty of time to enjoy the different types of ICE trains :D

That was the background of my proposal to do fly from FRA to Poland and thake the train back. But however: Enjoy the trains, it is excellent German engeneering and you will have plenty of time to enjoy the different types of ICE trains :D

good advice. but prepare some extra times for 'meine Damen und Herren, Ihr ICE hat derzeit eine Verspätung von ca 40min. Leider können wir keine Anschlusszüge mehr erreichen. Bitte achten Sie auf die Lautsprecherdurchsage am Bahnsteig"

translation: ladies and gentlemen. Our ICE train is delayed by 40min. We won't have any connections in the next station. Please listen carefully to the announcements on the platform"

WARNING - This coming weekend is the German World Cup soccer finals. It is in Berlin (I think on Sunday the 27th). People who know Berlin better than I do can tell you what the city will be like then - but I assume it will be a madhouse.

World cup finals were last year. This coming Sunday it is only the German Cup Final :D

World cup finals were last year. This coming Sunday it is only the German Cup Final :D

Sorry - I knew it was the German Final - but - not knowing anything about soccer - I guess I said it wrong. In any event - I assume that the city will be very crowded. And that the streets may not look too nice the next morning (we were in Cophenhagen once during a big soccer match - and it wasn't a pretty sight the morning after). We will be arriving at 8 am - and will go straight to our hotel - take a shower - and sleep for a few hours. Robyn

Any advice on hotels in poland? I am trying to find the best website for searching that area.

Uh, where in Poland? Auschwitz? Krakow? Try Tripadvisor for a list of hotels. I stayed in Hotel Polski Pod Bialym Orlem in Krakow. Not spectacular but sufficient and not far from the train station and the center of town. The Wentzl and Amadeus are both very nice hotels but are more upscale...

BTW, 4 hours is not sufficient for Auschwitz if you are going from Krakow. It is a ~1.5 hours drive in either direction...which would leave you an hour to "see" Auschwitz and Birkenau (two different geographical locations). Then again, if you "did" London in a day, knock yourself out...

I personally am glad I spent as much time at Auschwitz as I did...it is a place that one must visit, but not that one would want to revisit.