Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Let's open a Masterthread ... M&M Changes

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Jensens

Mar 12, 04, 4:00 am

I think it was predictable enough what happend. Changes seem to fit pretty much what other, mainly, northamerican carriers did. I really find positive that some awards are to be had for less now. So it's not all too glum. Most annoying: no executive bonus on most *A, I think that they really should NOT implement.

Cheers

Jensens

EvilDoctorK

Mar 12, 04, 4:08 am

Some other observations
- C, F travel (non European) now multiplier with Exec bonus is 2.25 (was 2.5) and 3.25 (was 3.75) ... so you now earn 10% less miles in C and ~13% less miles in F ... "Exec bonus is now based on Miles Flown"
- FlySmart intra Euro @ 15,000 (Y) and 25,000(C) looks like a good deal (especially if they keep the 3000 online booking bonus

Jensens

Mar 12, 04, 4:18 am

Im afraid they won't keep the online discount for FlySmart, as these can from 01.08 only be booked online.

vivamuci

Mar 12, 04, 5:15 am

i wonder what the feedback for lh re the senator vouchers will be. the only logical reason not to give away sen vouchers every 50.000 miles, but only two once you re-/qualify ,is that everyone that flies premium over 300.000 miles a year will be invited for the new status. the new status then would surely have the vouchers every 50.000 miles. i personally fly alone on lh 400.000 miles plus each year and that would mean a loss of 14 upgradevouchers in two years time .. hard to accpet that for any sen I bet.

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 5:28 am

Originally posted by Jensens:
I think it was predictable enough what happend. Changes seem to fit pretty much what other, mainly, northamerican carriers did. I really find positive that some awards are to be had for less now. So it's not all too glum. Most annoying: no executive bonus on most *A, I think that they really should NOT implement.

Cheers

Jensens
I think most important are :

short domest./int. up to now min. 1000 miles in all econ. now only 125 in L,T - 87,5% !! all other exept B and Y 500 - 50% !! and and B , Y 750 -25% !!!
C,D,J,Z was 2000 and now is 1500 -25%

But in there anouncement they sell it that some get more and some less ! The true all will get less within the typical short flights up to 500 miles ( thats all domestic and most European flights like FRA-LON/PAR/VIE/BRU/AMS/ZRH/.....
And the typical MR`s FRA-QKL was 5000 miles in business ( incl. FTL/SEN) now are only 3750 miles and the same in "W" class was 2500 miles and now 1250 ! (rt)
Same on intern. short flights like BKK-HKT on TG with LH flightno. upt to now 2500 ow in Busin. now 1250 , "W" class was 1250 ow now 625 and "B;Y" was 1250 now 906 !
The only thing which is positiv is flights with distance more than 1000 miles in Y and B now are factor 1,5 was 1,0 ( but who flies Y or B ???? )

Rudi

Mar 12, 04, 5:35 am

what positiv differencies, compared to (most) other StarAlliance FrequentFlier programs, remain?:

* the 2 year qualification/expiry
* the downgrading by only one status level after two years (from Senator to FrequentFlier, then another two years until down to basic level)
* earning some (but much less than until now) miles on any paid fare
* class bonus counting as status miles too (flying any StarAlliance carrier)
* status bonus (only on LH, OS, LOT and UA) counting as status miles too
* upgrades (with miles or vouchers) possible on more than just one carier: LH, OS, LOT and (on standby basis) UA
* often/mostly higher minimum miles
* no expiry for Senator upgrade vouchers (but much less vouchers)
* overdraft by max 160'000 miles for Senators
* 150% 2-persons (partner-) awards for Senators

I am surprised that LH/miles&more didn't announce the introduction and rules for the new 'black card' at the same time (that's contrary to what my local ZRH LH-angels expected when we talked about new rules in late 2003).

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

FLYGVA

Mar 12, 04, 5:54 am

OK, we all expected something like this in the past. And I am, as a leisure flyer, not amused about the changes. Not executive bonus on other than LH, UA, OS and the other M&M partner is to not quite good as I often fly with SQ or TG; what about code sharing flights?

Miles and More focused to business travellers and persons using high price / full flexible tickets. This happens “in the tradition” of the changes of the most frequent flier programs (e.g. Executive Club of British Airways) in the last years. And as Rudi wrote, there are still some very good benefits (e.g. status for two years, earning miles on every fair).

So, the changes could have been worse (e.g. no miles in some classes [like SQ]). And in my eyes, there is not really an alternative program for those, who fly mostly domestic or intra Europe.

Jan

ralfkrippner

Mar 12, 04, 6:11 am

Those 125 miles for T class flights are a very bad joke. The only reason can be that LH still can do marketing with "miles on all fares".

What I absolutely do not understand is the missing 25% exec. bonus on star carriers other then UA.

Also I don't understand the policy not to give out SEN upgrade vouchers anymore for 50k status miles but only 2 per 2 years. Definitive consequence for me: Try to requalify sharply - and if I have a choice for KLM/NW/skyteam later on I will probably choose those.

Quite outraging is the cost of the new upgrades. 50k for a oneway upgrade europe-USA when a completely free return flight is 90K in C? Who calculated this? Maybe they think about heavily restricting award inventory, then it would partially make sense at least (for them)...

Over all a move that couldn't have been worse IMO.

And again: No communication from LH so far to me as a german SEN. Bad, bad!

Consequence:

I will for sure take LH only on the flights where I absolutely have to do so. In addition maybe a RTW every two years (in C or F) to requalify. Intra-German flights will move to DB railways.

All other flights will be on KL/NW/skyteam (if they keep their current program).

I'll start to rebook flights right away.

Goodbye LH!

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:28 am

Ralf, I agree with you.

The new upgrade costs are a bad joke:

All upgrades more expensive except those from Y/B to C.

All F awards still cost the same. Pfui.

No more exec. bonus on all Star carriers, and if you are lucky to get it on LH, only for the actual miles flown. D*mn!

Could not have been worse.

The reduced mileage requirement for Y and C awards does not at all outweigh the negative improvements.

Any changes to the FTL/SEN qualification requirements ?

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:33 am

Originally posted by davidcito:
- reduction for award miles needed (e.g. Europe-Australia 100.000/160.000/200.000)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please show me where I can find F class for 200K miles on the chart!

All reductions in C and Y and for F it remained the same. ****!

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:36 am

Upgrade vouchers only two per qualification.

AA gives 8 vipows and UA 6 SWUs!

Tirreg

Mar 12, 04, 6:39 am

No good news http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I think most of us knew that this would happen after BA and many american airlines changed the rules and now focus on the travellers paying the higher fares.

But I don´t know how they calculated the miles needed for an award or an upgrade award. For me it doesn´t make much sense that you need 60,000 miles for a return-award in C class to the middle east and you need 35,000 miles to upgrade one flight (70,000 for your return flight) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Football Fan

Mar 12, 04, 6:43 am

fradoc

Mar 12, 04, 6:48 am

At least the have not devaluated the lovely Z fares...

kempis

Mar 12, 04, 6:49 am

Will Sen benefit -160K still be around?

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:50 am

Especially when considering F awards.
Where are the reductions ?

And flying paid Y or C. As UA 1P and 1K you get executive bonus: not 25% but 100%, only on UA (All flights) and LH (transatlantic).

LH's bonus had the advantage of getting it on all Star Carriers. But that is ridiculous.

Hagbard Viking

Mar 12, 04, 6:51 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
Upgrade vouchers only two per qualification.

AA gives 8 vipows and UA 6 SWUs!

It's even worse, to upgrade one long-haul flight you need to spend both vouchers. VIPOWs and SWUs are good systemwide, including connections.

------------------
The Star Alliance Award Comparison Chart (http://hagbard.0-24.net/starawards.html)

ralfkrippner

Mar 12, 04, 6:52 am

I have the impression that the europeans again act in copying moves that the american market has implemented some 1-3 years earlier.

And again we haven't learned from the errors that were made overseas.

At times where some US carriers start to again improve their programs or at least correct errors they made, LH decides to bring M&M to a complete stop and inserts the reverse gear. I can only hope that it will scrunch very loud...!

I hope the other carriers with still good and fair FF progs will see their chance to act and snatch away the best LH customers... At least folks here (and we are a lot of people here!!!) will take some consequence. Hope it hurts, LH.

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 6:54 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
Originally posted by davidcito:
- reduction for award miles needed (e.g. Europe-Australia 100.000/160.000/200.000)

They only reduced Y and C but not F !
see
Die neue Star Alliance Flugprämien Tabelle als PDF öffnen
http://www.miles-and-more.com./LHeCMS/mediafiles/pdf/8/0,4396,242838,00.pdf

[This message has been edited by bertheike (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:54 am

Originally posted by ralfkrippner:
I have the impression that the europeans again act in copying moves that the american market has implemented some 1-3 years earlier.

Hope it hurts, LH.

Well, LH has not copied AA's and UA's mileage requirements for awards and upgrades. And LH does not give 12 Vouchers away which would be equal to UA's 6 SWUs!

Football Fan

Mar 12, 04, 6:56 am

Funny to see that they made the effort to STILL display a Europe-Hawaii award in their award chart when, according to their interpretation, you cannot get to Hawaii from Europe without using a 3-region-award. Apparently, they do not read Flyertalk attentively enough.

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 6:56 am

What about the qualification levels for FTL and SEN ?

And the overdraft benefit ?

Gone with the wind ?

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 7:03 am

Small comparison of BMI and LH FFP for

F Class award to North America and South Africa:

LH: Either you pay C,D,Z (2300-5000EUR) and add 100K miles for the upgrades or you use 140K miles.

BMI: either 50K miles plus 170 pounds or 100K miles.

In a nutshell: BMI 170 pounds + 50 K miles
LH: 3000 EUR + 100K miles

Very competitive http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 7:12 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
What about And the overdraft benefit ?

Gone with the wind ?
If so, I will overdraft all 4 of us by the max. possible until Aug. and start emidiatly to save my miles with UA ! ( have already 4 F tix to Thailand this new year, and would trie to get another 5-6 for future travel as long as it works !!!

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 7:22 am

Originally posted by ralfkrippner:

Quite outraging is the cost of the new upgrades. 50k for a oneway upgrade europe-USA when a completely free return flight is 90K in C? Who calculated this? Maybe they think about heavily restricting award inventory, then it would partially make sense at least (for them)...

Goodbye LH!
upgrading LH with miles was never a good value !!! Now it is even more crazy!
See BA´s WT+ fares, USA eastcoast to LON at the moment is around 600 USD rt. And this you upgrade for 50% = 25k miles per rt. to club world which is a much better product than LH´s new one !

christianj

Mar 12, 04, 7:43 am

For North American M&M members, these changes are horrible! Not only have the upgrades gotten worse but also the normal ticket redemption rates. Eco. is going from 50 to 60K, BC from 80 to 90 and F from 100 to 140!!!! If you look at UA chart, they are at 50, 80 and 100. I always accrued on LH instead of UA because of the bonuses but now if you look at the overall picture, I think UA is a better deal. I don't think UA will increase their redemption rates because they are basically giving away the kitchen sink to keep MP members happy right now. Just look at all the promos!

I know that M&M members in the US had a benefit over our friends who belong to the program in Europe for years. This may not have been right but to get US members to belong to M&M they had to offer us some benefits. These benefits are now gone! I personally prefer the LH service to Europe in BC vs. United. Most americans I have spoken with however prefer the over the top friendliness on UA vs. LH. I have heard numerous comments about the snobish attitude of LH staff.

I have always been loyal to LH M&M (for over 10 years now) even thought there were huge differences in the Premier qualification levels (*A Gold on UA is only 50k and on LH 100k) due to the added benefits which are now being taken away!

I think these changes will really harm LH M&M in North America!

christianj

Mar 12, 04, 7:47 am

One thing I forgot to mention, flights on USAirway will not be given Status bonuses (25%)any more based on these new rules. UA flights will still get the bonuses but not US flights!

demiurg

Mar 12, 04, 7:50 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
What about the qualification levels for FTL and SEN ?

And the overdraft benefit ?

Gone with the wind ?

Since they say on www.miles-and-more.com/new (http://www.miles-and-more.com/new) that they have describe all changes ("Please have a look at the following pages to see what changes await you") I assume that at least those things not explicitly mentioned will remain the same.

After a short look at the webpages to me the changes are bad enough as they are right now http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif. Time to reconsider other alternatives...

Danny

Mar 12, 04, 7:54 am

did i understand correctly that U.S. based members will now use the same -much more "expensive"- award chart as european based members?

in the past there were separate charts.

maybe they just didn't publish the one for U.S. based mebers yet?

lewinr

Mar 12, 04, 8:02 am

FYI for everybody: I was told that the 50% discount on companion tickets is retained

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 8:02 am

http://fly.to/bmiflyer

christianj

Mar 12, 04, 8:02 am

Originally posted by Danny:
did i understand correctly that U.S. based members will now use the same -much more "expensive"- award chart as european based members?

in the past there were separate charts.

maybe they just didn't publish the one for U.S. based mebers yet?

I had just gotten off the phone with M&M USA when I posted that and YES our awards will be the same as those in Europe....ALL WILL BE THE SAME!! Call LH and complain so that they have a record of all US members complaining. This thing was just published this morning so we are some of the first US members to find out about the changes.

Thing that really gets me mad is if I had known about this at the beginning of the year I would have started putting the miles on my UA MP account. They were running such a good bonus promo with up to triple miles in the first quarter. I stuck with LH because I didn't want to waste any of my miles so that I wouldn't have to worry about qualifying for SEN this year. Just calculated if I had credited all of my flights this year to UA with the bonus I would have had 46.986 MP miles. With LH I have 36.010 due to the regular bonuses. I am not happy!

[This message has been edited by christianj (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

Danny

Mar 12, 04, 8:15 am

Originally posted by christianj:
I had just gotten off the phone with M&M USA when I posted that and YES our awards will be the same as those in Europe....ALL WILL BE THE SAME!! Call LH and complain so that they have a record of all US members complaining. This thing was just published this morning so we are some of the first US members to find out about the changes.

Thing that really gets me mad is if I had known about this at the beginning of the year I would have started putting the miles on my UA MP account. They were running such a good bonus promo with up to triple miles in the first quarter. I stuck with LH because I didn't want to waste any of my miles so that I wouldn't have to worry about qualifying for SEN this year. Just calculated if I had credited all of my flights this year to UA with the bonus I would have had 46.986 MP miles. With LH I have 36.010 due to the regular bonuses. I am not happy!


hi christianj,

thanks for the info! i already logged my disappointment with LH http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

by the way, everybody:
watch out on the W and S fares (both cheap eco). they now get only half the miles, and worse, are NOT upgradeable at all...

oh well, let's see if the op upg generosity significantly declines...

by the way, the bmi program really rocks! i wasn't aware of it's beauty...

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

peter42

Mar 12, 04, 8:31 am

Originally posted by attorney28:
Funny to see that they made the effort to STILL display a Europe-Hawaii award in their award chart when, according to their interpretation, you cannot get to Hawaii from Europe without using a 3-region-award. Apparently, they do not read Flyertalk attentively enough.

We have been told it is possible on UA.

peter42

Mar 12, 04, 8:35 am

Originally posted by Danny:
hi christianj,

thanks for the info! i already logged my disappointment with LH http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

by the way, everybody:
watch out on the W and S fares (both cheap eco). they now get only half the miles, and worse, are NOT upgradeable at all...

oh well, let's see if the op upg generosity significantly declines...

by the way, the bmi program really rocks! i wasn't aware of it's beauty...

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

That is one of the points were they did not even keep their minimum promise not to change the basic benefits (one of them was that all paid fares were upgradeable - years ago, they tried it with W for about ten month, but had to back up quickly!).

transpac

Mar 12, 04, 8:39 am

Can e-vouchers be used on any fare class? (quote: "You may only use eVouchers to request an Upgrade for certain booking classes, e.g. it is not possible to upgrade from the low fare Economy booking class T." So does that mean any fare class except T, or are there other "certain booking classes". Who writes this stuff? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Are status miles (elite qualifying miles) actual flight miles, or do they still include the F/C & exec bonus uplift?

If I requalified for SEN in Jan 2004, how long will I have SEN status?

"Fair is fair", an interesting phrase to begin with?

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 9:04 am

Interpretatio necesse est!

Meikrosoft

Mar 12, 04, 9:25 am

To all Germans:

I just realized that the miles for intra-german flights will be cut by 50% (500 instead of 1.000) I can't believe that this is true...

jobi

Mar 12, 04, 9:42 am

IMO tbe fact that you'll need some 60 German Domestic return trips in T or L for a simple FlySMART award says everything you have to know about the new rules...
However I will earn as many Miles as possible untill July 31 and then spend them on cheap FlySmarts... but I guess, LH has lost a customer in me.

BTW: Does anyone how many Miles I will receive on a domestic UK trip (e.g. LHR-GLA) with BMI from August on? 125?

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 11:58 am

Originally posted by jobi:
IMO tbe fact that you'll need some 60 German Domestic return trips in T or L for a simple FlySMART award says everything you have to know about the new rules...
However I will earn as many Miles as possible untill July 31 and then spend them on cheap FlySmarts... but I guess, LH has lost a customer in me.

BTW: Does anyone how many Miles I will receive on a domestic UK trip (e.g. LHR-GLA) with BMI from August on? 125? Domestik German and European flights in " L and T " class 125 miles
see
http://www.miles-and-more.com/LHeCMS/mediafiles/pdf/1/0,4396,242831,00.pdf

bertheike

Mar 12, 04, 12:16 pm

Originally posted by transpac:
[B]Can e-vouchers be used on any fare class? (it is not possible to upgrade from the low fare Economy booking class T." So does that mean any fare class except T, or are there other "certain booking classes". Who writes this stuff? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
B]
Well calculated LUFTHANSA !! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ideasmilie.gif

rt upgrade Europe to USA / Africa/ India 100k + buying a ticket exept S and W class " and free business ticket comes for 90k !!!
rt upgrade near east 70k + buying a ticket and free business ticket comes for 60k !!!
rt upgrade far east 130k + buying a ticket and free business ticket comes for 120k !!!

peter42

Mar 12, 04, 1:21 pm

Originally posted by bertheike:
Originally posted by transpac:
[B]Can e-vouchers be used on any fare class? (it is not possible to upgrade from the low fare Economy booking class T." So does that mean any fare class except T, or are there other "certain booking classes". Who writes this stuff? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
B]
Well calculated LUFTHANSA !! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif <IMG SRC="http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ideasmilie.gif">

rt upgrade Europe to USA / Africa/ India 100k + buying a ticket exept S and W class " and free business ticket comes for 90k !!!
rt upgrade near east 70k + buying a ticket and free business ticket comes for 60k !!!
rt upgrade far east 130k + buying a ticket and free business ticket comes for 120k !!!

I can only say back to Math 101 about this !

linhard04

Mar 12, 04, 1:24 pm

Originally posted by peter42:
That is one of the points were they did not even keep their minimum promise not to change the basic benefits (one of them was that all paid fares were upgradeable - years ago, they tried it with W for about ten month, but had to back up quickly!).

I wonder how long it takes Lufthansa this time to retreat from the new upgrade policy. I have the bad feeling longer than 10 months, it at all http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

For all US M&M members the new upgrade policy and the new applicable miles table is a big slap in the face. Although UA isn't as good as Lufthansa, I can see quite a few M&M members banking their miles immediately into their UA account after they earned their 100k to requalify for SEN status.

Football Fan

Mar 12, 04, 2:01 pm

Over at Delta, they started a "Save Sky Miles" initiative.

Are we going to do something about these changes here?

Kiwi Flyer

Mar 12, 04, 2:06 pm

What a lot to absorb so early in the morning!

The loss of elite bonus on *A will hurt - this was a great point of difference for M&M. The change to upgrade vouchers make them just about worthless.

I havent seen anything on the qualification levels - hopefully they are unchanged (or go down)?

With a lot of earning and burning of miles coming up both before and after 1 August there is a lot to work out. Thanks for wrecking my weekend http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

OTOH there remain some features that are good - eg 2 years qualification.

flamboyant 1

Mar 12, 04, 2:13 pm

No need to save a program that changed so badly...made my weekend as well.

Kiwi Flyer

Mar 12, 04, 2:13 pm

Flying biz on *A other than LH/OS/LO/UA earning rate falls from 250% to 200% - 20% reduction. Similarly first falls from 375% to 300% - also 20% reduction.

ralfkrippner

Mar 12, 04, 2:35 pm

Originally posted by Kiwi Flyer:
Flying biz on *A other than LH/OS/LO/UA earning rate falls from 250% to 200% - 20% reduction. Similarly first falls from 375% to 300% - also 20% reduction. 

Did you recognize that F minimum miles were also cut down 50%? For a short intra US F segment on US-Air you get 3750 miles at the moment as FTL/SEN and 1500 miles after Aug 1st.

And intra Europe long distance fliers also get punished: E.g. earning is capped at 1.000 miles.

Kiwi Flyer

Mar 12, 04, 3:37 pm

No, I'm still trying to take this in. But you're right. SIN-KUL is another example.

[This message has been edited by Kiwi Flyer (edited Mar 12, 2004).]

jongar

Mar 12, 04, 3:59 pm

dear lufthansa,

well, it was great while it lasted, i mean thats a four year relationship, a record of any kind for me. Well I knwo i ran up my overdraft to 140,000 miles and i know I have been very slow to repay, but that recent round the world should of helped, but now you tell me my intra europe flying is worth nothing - I will continue to enjoy the benifits of my SEN card, (valid till next Feb and FTL after that, but I will not put another mile into the account - sorry about the deficit, but you just devalued the currency by 85% - even bob mugabe cant beat that

yours

jon gar,
oh and I sold the house you send stuff to 2 years ago

Jon

ws8n

Mar 12, 04, 6:51 pm

That's hilarious, Jongar!!!

Not only has LH cut mileage accrual, they jacked up redemption rates. This is not a good time to stab our back LH.

Are there any other *A FFP that has generous bonus for C/F fares?

lewinr

Mar 13, 04, 12:28 am

by the way, I think I understand LH's reasoning on the upgrade award costs.

I guess there are many people who fly for work in eco, and their employers limit them to eco. Those people use their miles to upgrade to biz.

I guess LH is targetting these fliers with this increase. LH understand that most people will burn their miles and get a RT award in C in the first place, if they can. But those people who fly for work will have no choice: the employer will only pay for an economy ticket, so their only chance to get into C is to burn their miles on upgrades.

tcswede

Mar 13, 04, 2:52 am

Originally posted by vivamuci:
i wonder what the feedback for lh re the senator vouchers will be. i personally fly alone on lh 400.000 miles plus each year and that would mean a loss of 14 upgradevouchers in two years time .. hard to accpet that for any sen I bet.

I can only second that - to point out that thes chaneges are to the customers advantage - meaning more fair - especially in lieu of the SEN 50 K vouchers. It is not only hard to accept - it is almost impossible to comprehend. Last Year I received 16 and this year I would based on planned travel pattern have even more (before taking the consequences of the enhancement of the programme into consideration) So instead of receiven 35 - 40 vouchers for the period I would receive two - also an interesting view on fair - I would not receive more than anybody else. Great - I knew there was a reason to leave Sweden and all the equalitarian aspects but they seem to have caught up with me again ....

Cheers

Thomas

Snoopy

Mar 13, 04, 3:01 am

Can someone help me with the executive bonus?
I can't figure out what is happening. ON the web page they say in future it will be only 25% of the basic flown miles, but in the calculator they say you can use, it still takes into account the class of service (i.e. C-class = 2x).

Even the example they use: Frankfurt - Singapore gives a different result in the calculator to the example on the web page.

Have I missed something?

tcswede

Mar 13, 04, 3:09 am

flamboyant 1

Mar 13, 04, 3:54 am

Originally posted by ralfkrippner:
Did you recognize that F minimum miles were also cut down 50%? For a short intra US F segment on US-Air you get 3750 miles at the moment as FTL/SEN and 1500 miles after Aug 1st.

And intra Europe long distance fliers also get punished: E.g. earning is capped at 1.000 miles.

This sucks. This sucks, this sucks.

3750 min. miles in F on UA was great.

It all was great and now it is catastrophic.

As for those who will not get the upgrade vouchers, this is a huge step in the back of premium customers who accumulate more than 200000K miles on LH. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by flamboyant 1 (edited Mar 13, 2004).]

lhrpete

Mar 13, 04, 4:32 am

As things stand, I have already qualified as a SEN until Feb 2007 and assuming nothing changes a FTL until Feb 2009. Long haul business travel in C is likely to keep me qualifying as far in the future as anyone can predict these days.

To a point I mind losing the exec bonus when flying with another *A carrier but I can live with that. I'm not aware of any other *A programme that offers anything as generous as M&M does until 1st August.

What I really do mind that will not affect my ability to qualify in any way is the level of mileage I might now earn for a cheap short-haul in Europe. What LH are effectively saying to me is that they want me and my money when I have lots to spend, but if it's my own money and I'm looking for a bargain they really don't give a stuff about me. That's a really good message to give to 'a distinguished customer of Lufthansa'.

I'm sure they will continue to be able to sell discounted fares to others and in future instead of maybe spending a few pounds more to fly with LH or a *A partner, I'll buy the cheapest ticket I can find when it's my own money. Who knows, I might get to like some of the alternatives and I might just move my longhaul C travel to them. I don't suppose LH really care about that either in the long run though.

IMO they should have left award levels untouched for SENs and FTLs - but then, they never value individual opinions about anything do they!

Football Fan

Mar 13, 04, 4:59 am

Originally posted by tcswede:
Ther is on posibility actually: If you can get a seat on UA from LHR via LAX to HNL there is a flight with one singular flight no 935 - with this you get away with special Europe - Hawaii award.

Cheers

Thomas

Thanks, that's great to know!

Jensens

Mar 13, 04, 6:44 am

Originally posted by attorney28:
Over at Delta, they started a "Save Sky Miles" initiative.

Are we going to do something about these changes here?

I can only second that. We should do something similar. If only to show LH that this is simply not the right way to communicate such a large scale change to the programme. I think it would be better for both, FFs and LH if some of the proposed changes were not implemented.

Any ideas what would be the best to do? I think setting up a website would be a start ...

Cheers Jensens

flamboyant 1

Mar 13, 04, 7:15 am

Great, then do it.

I have written two e-mails to LH with some examples of their strange mathematical skills when caculating return upgrade levels that are higher than award tickets, the voucher rule, minimum miles in Germany and in F on short hops in the US, etc.

No reply yet.

TRESY

Mar 13, 04, 8:30 am

The new programme is bad. Even the hapless KLM was not as bad as this when they changed their programme.

What really annoys me is the letter starting "As a Senator, you are one of our best customers and therefore deserve special attention" Yes, for punitive action!!

Someone said that they thought the overdraft facility was being withdrawn - this would be a big negative.

Has this been confirmed by Lufthansa?

PEM

Mar 13, 04, 10:45 am

Hi Folks

Some discussions in this board are just wrong.

- Right now the new mileage accurel rules for the 01. of August will only apply for LH / OS / LO / AP / EN flights.

- And what about Codeshare flights? The miles you earn depend on the operating carrier. So if you fly FRA to BKK with a TG flight number but operated by LH -> the new mls accural will calculate your mls and if you are status customer you will get the executive bonus.
But if you fly CDG - BKK with LH flt number and operated by TG you will get the mls like you get them now but without executive bonus.

- Customers with resident based in the US will pay only 50.000 mls for an Eco Award flt from US to Europe and back! But for Busi and First flts the new Star Chart will apply.

- And please just remember what Evouchers are. Of course it is not nice to see that you will get less evouchers in the future but i think we are all working for big companys .... and let us all remember what these companies are doing right now...

Have a nice day.

By PEM

Jensens

Mar 13, 04, 11:02 am

Kiwi Flyer

Mar 13, 04, 11:05 am

Ok back again. Just looking at the areas of interest to me its not all bad.

The upgrade award Australia to Europe has stayed the same and is now even more ridiculous (eg compared with Biz redemption award). [Edited to correct misreading one-way as return - very big difference!]

Looking only at redemption awards to/from Australia/NZ
1) India goes up
2) South Pacific stays the same
3) First stays the same
4) All others decrease by 7% to 20% (generally bigger drop for Econ than Biz)

Mileage earning rate drops 20% to 50% depending on class of travel.

Vouchers now basically useless.

So, overall maybe a 10-30% devaluation. Bad, but could have been much worse.

Maybe we were spoilt by the previous generosity?

[This message has been edited by Kiwi Flyer (edited Mar 13, 2004).]

lhrpete

Mar 13, 04, 12:35 pm

Originally posted by PEM:

i think we are all working for big companys .... and let us all remember what these companies are doing right now...



Maybe so, but most companies with any business sense do not hit out at their best customers even in bad times. Customers have much longer memories for negatives than positives and once you damage a business relationship you often end up having to give a lot more back to reach where you were before you started.

I think LH have pitched this review carefully, they were better than the rest, now they are no worse than average. Most of us will stay earning less miles, a few will go and LH maybe hope that some of the recently comped masses will stay to make up the difference. That may of course not be the case and they may just lose premium customers which is the risk they are gambling with.

[This message has been edited by lhrpete (edited Mar 13, 2004).]

flamboyant 1

Mar 13, 04, 2:37 pm

"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten."

tcswede

Mar 14, 04, 3:40 am

Originally posted by PEM:
Hi Folks

Some discussions in this board are just wrong.

- Right now the new mileage accurel rules for the 01. of August will only apply for LH / OS / LO / AP / EN flights.

- And what about Codeshare flights? The miles you earn depend on the operating carrier. So if you fly FRA to BKK with a TG flight number but operated by LH -> the new mls accural will calculate your mls and if you are status customer you will get the executive bonus.
But if you fly CDG - BKK with LH flt number and operated by TG you will get the mls like you get them now but without executive bonus.

- Customers with resident based in the US will pay only 50.000 mls for an Eco Award flt from US to Europe and back! But for Busi and First flts the new Star Chart will apply.

- And please just remember what Evouchers are. Of course it is not nice to see that you will get less evouchers in the future but i think we are all working for big companys .... and let us all remember what these companies are doing right now...

Have a nice day.

By PEM

PEM
I fo not know who you are or what you do or if you in fact work for LH but I find your tone rather pretentious.

Fo a statement that has fairness as an objective, I can not see any other principle of fairness applied than making everybody as miserable = swedish principle of equality.

From my travel pattern with C tickets in Europe and F out side it equates that in future I will receive less:
General:
In Germany 25 % less miles
Exce Bonus
In Europe 10 % less mileage (Factor 2,25 instead of 2,5)
Overseas 13,3 % less mileage (Factor 3,25 instead of 3,75)

SEN Vouchers - for 2003 and 2004 calculated at lower end: Instead of 35 it would be 2 = 95 % less.

What do I use my Award miles for - I like to take my wife along overseas - and oops the mieleage for F awards has remained the same - but as per above it is harder to earn miles for me.

Yes I work most for what I guess you call a large company - and what do we do in hard times- which I guess is what you point at:
WE TRY TO WORK EVEN HARDER TO KEEP OUR GOOD CUSTOMERS HAPPY and do certainly not try to kick them in the ba**s.
I do not know about your business sense but your statement regarding company size was way off reality http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Cheers

Thomas

fradoc

Mar 14, 04, 3:40 am

Originally posted by Tirreg:
No good news http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I think most of us knew that this would happen after BA and many american airlines changed the rules and now focus on the travellers paying the higher fares.

But I don´t know how they calculated the miles needed for an award or an upgrade award. For me it doesn´t make much sense that you need 60,000 miles for a return-award in C class to the middle east and you need 35,000 miles to upgrade one flight (70,000 for your return flight) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif 

I have only one explanation for this: In the past I never considered burning miles for a C award ticket, in the frst line because of the difference of miles to burn. But there are some other major disadvantages of the award ticket:

1. Up to now, if you had to fly on a certain date in Y, you bought the (cheapo) ticket and waited (less or more relaxed) until the upgrades cleared.
Now, if you have to wait for a complete C award, you will risk that low-cost buckets or whole Y will be sold out.
Same situation if already booked in Y and want to upgrade spontaneously with miles (some days in advance or at the gate).

2. In the past, the low fares accrued miles. The C award ticket does not.

Imagine a flight FRA-MIA-FRA
a) until 08/01: cheap Y ticket and u/g
costs: ca € 700
miles to burn (MTB): 70.000
miles to earn (MTE) incl. executive bonus: 12060
status miles: 12060
miles balance: -57940

b) from 08/01: cheap Y ticket and u/g
costs: ca € 700
MTB: 100.000
MTE (incl. executive bonus): 12060
status miles: 12060
miles balance: -87940

c) from 08/01: C award ticket
costs: ca. € 80 (tax and fare)
MTB: 90.000
MTE: 0
status miles: 0
miles balance: -90000

So, if you had the choice, what option would you go for ?

I think LH tries to keep away the typical Y low-revenue flyer from their premium cabins: "All you airailers (fradoc inclusive), mileage runners, Y flyers, who accrued miles, please burn your stock and have your fun (try to get an C award tix...not as easy as you think http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif) and then, please go back to coach, where you belong."
I think this step is a logical consequence and we could see it come. Be honest: it was too good to be true. Now LH tries to concentrate more on the high-rev pax and wants to shake off those who fly low-cost regularly but managed to reach status and enjoyed the privileges. All the FTL on the lower edge will fall back into the masses of blue card holders. And all the masses of blue card holders are participants of a FFP which is factually useless for them (o.k., let them have their fun: one Y award every three years...).
You'll have to do much harder to fulfil the NCA (never coach again) criterion. The message is clear: close all the loopholes, let 'em pay.

[edited for typos]

[This message has been edited by fradoc (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

PEM

Mar 14, 04, 7:56 am

Hi tcswede

Don't let us talk about this too much...as i see many status customers of LH MAM are claiming about overcrowded Lounges / about nonexistence of available UPG seats / about a status that is not worth its name -> and what is the reason for this? there are too many status costumers that say „hi, i am one of LH best costumers!“
But we all know the truth....many of them just changed their resident online to lower their qualification rules...some just take the train to earn frequences and after this they are called „Frequenttraveller“. As you know this has never been the intention of LH MAM.

If my tone is pretentious i just can say sorry...maybe the reason is that my english is not that good.

I just wanted to show up that not all the changes are that bad. It is right that all Customers of LH MAM will earn lesse miles for national european flts - but it is not true that for all other situations they will earn less mls too. For example - A flt in Eco (Class B) from FRA to PAR would bring 1000 mls today - but in the future we will earn 1250 mls. Or take a flt from FRA to NYC - today we earn 3851 in every Eco Class - in the future we will earn the half of 3851 in W or S / or 1.5 of 3851 in Y or B - and the same as today in every other Eco class.

So it is quite individual for all of us...don't you think so?

And yes there are changes we will not understand....i personly do not understand some of the new upg prices.

And one last word...Yeah there are really many companies that work harder to keep there good customers -> just take a look at the german Telecommunication company „Telekom“. On the one side they are making profit in a hard market but on the other side they throw out their employees. So i hope LH can keep its good customers without throwing out its employees.

Have a nice day.

Bye PEM

AJLondon

Mar 14, 04, 8:14 am

PEM, do you happen to work for or are affiliated to LH in some way (other than just as a flying customer) ?

cheers
AJ

Football Fan

Mar 14, 04, 8:40 am

I say PEM works in Verl.

Football Fan

Mar 14, 04, 8:54 am

Originally posted by PEM:
I just wanted to show up that not all the changes are that bad. It is right that all Customers of LH MAM will earn lesse miles for national european flts - but it is not true that for all other situations they will earn less mls too. For example - A flt in Eco (Class B) from FRA to PAR would bring 1000 mls today - but in the future we will earn 1250 mls. Or take a flt from FRA to NYC - today we earn 3851 in every Eco Class - in the future we will earn the half of 3851 in W or S / or 1.5 of 3851 in Y or B - and the same as today in every other Eco class.

So it is quite individual for all of us...don't you think so?


It is a stupid change that can only have been thought out by people who stare at sheep all day. It was one of Miles and More's biggest advantages that it was relatively transparent. Any customer could pretty much know how many miles he was going to earn. Now it becomes really complicated. Come on, how many "normal" flyers really even know what booking class (W,Q,B,Y) their economy class flight is booked in?!

Before, it was straightforward - eco gets you a certain amount of miles, and you can upgrade from any eco fare.

In the future, it will be a mess that nobody can understand and that will surely increase calls to the customer service lines by a lot. Which, in turn, will cause additional cost. The intransparency will cause many people to get disgruntled. We have seen it all at the American airlines like UA what a frequent flyer program that gets too complicated with regards to different mileage earning and upgrade availability depending on booking classes can do to the airline's and the ff program's reputation (well, we have seen it, but the people in Verl who came up with this "brilliant" "new" concept must have missed it).

Your example shows how far you either are from reality or how you intentionally try to play us for fools: So if I get an overpriced economy ticket from FRA to Paris I will earn 1250 miles instead of 1000? Big deal! The price of an economy ticket in booking class B is almost the same as buying a business class ticket!!!! To sell THAT as a positive change is ridiculous, when at the same time the economy fares that a private person normally buys when they pay themselves earn almost no miles anymore.

Basically, I predict that the economic benefit to LH that some morons calculated on some excel sheet in Ostwestfalen will be more than outweighed by the backlash of customers leaving LH over this and by the additional cost and loss of goodwill of people having to call LH customer service to even remotely understand why they earned/did not earn a certain amount of miles.

[This message has been edited by attorney28 (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

flamboyant 1

Mar 14, 04, 9:20 am

I totally agree with my favourite FT attorney http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif!

It is very complicated now: Different minimum miles depending on where (intra-German, europe, other coutries) and on what fares you fly and on what carriers (for exec. bonus). Three parameters.

This is very annoying. From now on I will need excel to calculate my miles and try to make sure I make LH SEN with 100001 miles every two years. Or I will simply stay away from LH.

Who in the world would buy Y or B fares within Europe out of their own pocket ?

flamboyant 1

Mar 14, 04, 9:27 am

Furthermore it is ridiculous that those who offer VISA Gold Cards including 100EUR for the annual fee (95EUR) on Ebay will now get a C award to the US or SA from Europe for 900EUR.

They sell the awards for 1300-1500 and will make more money than before. I hope LH will agressively stop that. + free up more award availability.

But if you fly for 100EUR within Germany you get 125 miles, not 10000 as if you got someone to issue an LH Visa card.

PEM, if how far are you a stakeholder of the Deutsche Lufthansa AG ?

AJLondon

Mar 14, 04, 9:29 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:

Who in the world would buy Y or B fares within Europe out of their own pocket ?

Exactly. Why would you want to do that. On a recent intra-europe trip on LH from LHR to VCE & FCO via FRA, I booked thru the LH call centre. The Y class fare for my routing was over £ 800. What I actually ended up booking was a Business D fare for £ 530 ! And got twice as many miles by travelling in business class...

lhrpete

Mar 14, 04, 11:00 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
I totally agree with my favourite FT attorney http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif!

Who in the world would buy Y or B fares within Europe out of their own pocket ?

I second the agreement with attorney's comments, it is all too complicated now.

Also, who buys Y or B fares out of the company account especially on intra-European routes?

I always understood that the 1000 mile minimum acknowledged that everyone was travelling on a cheap ticket. After all, at that rate, it still took 15 return trips to get a free Y class ticket in Europe. That is rather more than most non-business travellers would make in the three year validity of miles for blue card holders so effectively they lost them and got nothing while for those of us who spend real money, we felt like we were getting a little bit back for our loyalty.

I suspect that LH will now find that loyalty cuts two ways and it might just be a painful lesson.

Swanhunter

Mar 14, 04, 11:03 am

As someone who has built up a stack of miles to burn, and will have secured SEN through to 2007 very soon I am not too worried. The reduced spend for C class awards is good, especially as some of the routes I want to use have gone 2 class. 60000 miles for LHR - MCT in C is a bargain, espcially as LHR - FRA costs 45,000. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

However, if the overdraft has gone I am going to be a very unhappy camper - does anyone have a definitive answer?

[This message has been edited by Swanhunter (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

Grog

Mar 14, 04, 11:05 am

Originally posted by PEM:
Hi tcswede
...
But we all know the truth....many of them just changed their resident online to lower their qualification rules...some just take the train to earn frequences and after this they are called „Frequenttraveller“. As you know this has never been the intention of LH MAM.
...
Bye PEM

While I can understand these two situations, I am curious as to what has changed in the new M&M program to eliminate these? Only this: if you earn status (by any method), overall, you will receive less.

--Grog--

flamboyant 1

Mar 14, 04, 11:07 am

PEM or anyone else, please clarify:

Will Senators still have the overdraft function after August 1 ?

Will the Senator Companion award be available after August 1 ?

FLYGVA

Mar 14, 04, 11:21 am

I searched , but I could not findt a answer:

Are the any (further) changes in the qualification by flights and in the earning in flight segments?

Jensens

Mar 14, 04, 11:52 am

Originally posted by attorney28:

Basically, I predict that the economic benefit to LH that some morons calculated on some excel sheet in Ostwestfalen will be more than outweighed by the backlash of customers leaving LH over this and by the additional cost and loss of goodwill of people having to call LH customer service to even remotely understand why they earned/did not earn a certain amount of miles.

[This message has been edited by attorney28 (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

Yes, that's also my prediction. LH is playing a game that renders the two involved parties worse off, FFs AND LH itself.

Passenger_by_Passion

Mar 14, 04, 11:54 am

Originally posted by PEM:
Hi tcswede

And one last word...Yeah there are really many companies that work harder to keep there good customers -> just take a look at the german Telecommunication company „Telekom“. On the one side they are making profit in a hard market but on the other side they throw out their employees. So i hope LH can keep its good customers without throwing out its employees.
Bye PEM

What an interesting kind of view...firing of employees that actually have no function or even slow down performance is an important issue especially in former government driven companies as "telekom" and "lufthansa" (with tremendous impact for the company performance in the german high wages environment). Sometimes firing will enhance even performance. The conclusion of PEM though is absolutely false. The lufthansa customers pay the wages!! So whoever they are, whatever they pay in whatever booking class, Lufthansa should treat them very kindly, maybe they stick to lufthansa...they are the ones that might decide to fly lufthansa and secure by that decision the job of lufthansa staff, they are the ones to focus on.
Loyalty goes to where they find value, maybe ff-miles or even politeness, customer orientation etc. Stays the hope LH will advance in this, as M&M value decreases.

Danny

Mar 14, 04, 12:00 pm

i have a new question for this thread:

if i were to fly on an LH ticket, on LH metal, but were to credit the miles to my UA account, what mileage rules apply?

especially, for w & s fares in economy. would i get the new 50% only that M&M customers would get, or would i get 100%, as it's under UA's account?

highly confused & thanks much

PEM

Mar 14, 04, 12:21 pm

Hi

I better stop to show up my point of view cause it seems quite different to yours. ;-)

But i give you the answers you need.

- Overdraw of account for SEN 160,000 Mls will not be reduced.

- No changes to SEN companion award.

- No changes for qualification/requalification.

And for Danny: If you credit the miles for LH flight to UA account (MP) it has nothing to do with Miles and More creditation rules.

Bye PEM

AJLondon

Mar 14, 04, 12:33 pm

Originally posted by PEM:

- No changes for qualification/requalification.


How can this be true? Even though you still need 100k/150k status miles for SEN depending on location, it is now between 10 and 50% harder to earn the same number of miles for all of us given all the changes in earning from low fares, minimum miles, exec bonus, partners exec bonus etc etc...

PEM

Mar 14, 04, 1:06 pm

Hi AJLondon

What do you mean when you say: „How can this be true?“

The rules are 50.000 (35.000) status miles or 40 Frequences for FTL and 150.000 (100.000) status miles or 120 Frequences for SEN.
And they will not be changed.

It is correct that it will be harder to fullfill them but why do you think LH is going to change the milage accrual?

Bye PEM

LordLuck

Mar 14, 04, 1:23 pm

In my opinion, M&M was the only advantage and reason for flying LH in eco, as neither comfort nor service are particularly memorable on that company.

the new system will moreover make it even more difficult to convince savvy companies and organisations to fly LH and * instead of taking the cheapest.

Personally, I'll go back to the old system of flying the best quality/price ratio, whatever the alliance the airline begins...and 'll wait till M&M gets back to the old system (if ever).

LL

paulusst

Mar 14, 04, 1:40 pm

Originally posted by PEM:

It is correct that it will be harder to fullfill them but why do you think LH is going to change the milage accrual?



Fair enough, PEM.

But why was LH lavishly throwing out SEN status last December then? And still comps everyone and his dog through the *A promo? Not that I would mind, but it seems a bit inconsistant ...

Thanks for the confirmation on companion award + overdraft. Pls tell your friends over in the SEN call-center, they still dont have a clue.

And while you are at it, give them some hints about the new SuperSEN status, most of them still believe I am kidding. How are we expected to exactly reach the milage treshold for the black card if we dont know it before Aug 1st? After that date our SQ F flights wont get the exec bonus anymore and there cannot possibly be a new perk that makes me fly LH F long-haul on paid flights. Or is there? Do tell! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

AJLondon

Mar 14, 04, 1:56 pm

Originally posted by PEM:
Hi AJLondon

What do you mean when you say: „How can this be true?“

The rules are 50.000 (35.000) status miles or 40 Frequences for FTL and 150.000 (100.000) status miles or 120 Frequences for SEN.
And they will not be changed.

It is correct that it will be harder to fullfill them but why do you think LH is going to change the milage accrual?

Bye PEM

Hi PEM,
What I mean is that even though the "official qualification/requalification requirement" is still the same, there has at the same time been a devaulation of earning opportunities which is, IMO, an implicit change. So if earlier I needed mileage from X flights in business/economy to qualify for SEN, I shall now need to fly X+Y flights to qualify for the same status. So effectively the goalpost has shifted.

And as far as your second point goes, I told concur with what paulusst said above.

cheers
AJ

Rudi

Mar 14, 04, 1:57 pm

I don't like many of the changements either.

Nevertheless, I don't think it is a good idea to be 'agressiv' against a poster like PEM (whether he/she is a LH employee or not), 'that defends LH's policy here on FlyerTalk.

For me, I welcome all negativ or positiv thoughts/ideas/critics pro-/contra the changements of miles&more, and than can verify/controle/adjust my own opinion and decide better about my future ff-'strategy'.

Tirreg

Mar 14, 04, 2:29 pm

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
IWho in the world would buy Y or B fares within Europe out of their own pocket ?

Of course nobody would pay Y or B fares out of his own pocket. But I know several companies where the rules say that employees have to travel in Economy Class within Europe and the company doesn´t even care if the D fare is cheaper or if they only save EUR 20 compared to the C fare. Some bean counter in the controlling department calculated how many thousands of Euros could be saved by flying in Y and the travel agency simply books the full flexible Y fare...
And LH earns a lot of money with those people travelling on Y and B fares as more and more companies stop allowing their employees flying in Business Class. M&M focus is not the customer who travels on the cheapest fares or spends the whole weekend onboard the airail or on a mileage run.

AJLondon

Mar 14, 04, 2:59 pm

Originally posted by Tirreg:
M&M focus is not the customer who travels on the cheapest fares or spends the whole weekend onboard the airail or on a mileage run.

Tirreg I totally agree with what you say above.
But what LH seems to have done here is hurt most if not all their customers and not just
the type of customer you describe above.

If they wanted to eliminate this type of customer then why implement changes like reducing executive bonus on star carriers. Also, another change that ONLY hurts high fare ticket payers (i.e. Business and First ticket holders) is the calculation of Exec Bonus as 25% of status miles flown, and not 25% of status miles earned on the sector. So a 4000 mile F class longhaul earlier gave me 15000 (12000+3000) status miles as opposed to 13000 (12000+1000) now. This change only hurts the customers LH supposedly wants to keep. As does the elimination of evouchers after 50k status miles.

So I'm not too sure how deeply they have thought about the effect of all their changes and rather than alienating just one group they might end up upseting most 'types' of their customers albeit to different degrees ofcourse depending on their earning/burning patterns..

cheers
AJ

bertheike

Mar 14, 04, 4:22 pm

Originally posted by attorney28:
I say PEM works in Verl.
If so I would say I know her !
PE M
PE.....n Monika ?
and if this is right, there is another staff working with the same last name
PE.....n Birgit !

mucsea

Mar 14, 04, 4:26 pm

I am just kicking my butt for crediting my miles (mostly flown on UA in the US) to m&m this year in order to requalify for Silver. I did this because I will move back to Europe this year.
If only I had put them into my MP account. I would have been Silver there already by now. I guess I will just burn my LH miles and look for another program. Could be BMI or UA.

Because why would someone who flies mostly intra-european or German domestic on economy fares have any reason to be loyal to LH anymore? For 125 miles? You gotta be kidding me!

It amazes me that LH tries to combat low-cost carriers by diluting their own product and making it the same as the lowcosts instead of distinguishing theirs. This is a very shortsighted strategy IMO. And one that has failed for others before, just look at the sad state the US majors are in.

Good-bye M&M.

peter42

Mar 14, 04, 4:38 pm

Originally posted by Tirreg:
Of course nobody would pay Y or B fares out of his own pocket. But I know several companies where the rules say that employees have to travel in Economy Class within Europe and the company doesn´t even care if the D fare is cheaper or if they only save EUR 20 compared to the C fare. Some bean counter in the controlling department calculated how many thousands of Euros could be saved by flying in Y and the travel agency simply books the full flexible Y fare...
And LH earns a lot of money with those people travelling on Y and B fares as more and more companies stop allowing their employees flying in Business Class. M&M focus is not the customer who travels on the cheapest fares or spends the whole weekend onboard the airail or on a mileage run.

Most employees will just pay up the ticket then, if they care for C on short flights!

bertheike

Mar 14, 04, 4:43 pm

Originally posted by mucsea:
I am just kicking my butt for crediting my miles (mostly flown on UA in the US) to m&m this year in order to requalify for Silver. I did this because I will move back to Europe this year.
If only I had put them into my MP account. I would have been Silver there already by now. I guess I will just burn my LH miles and look for another program. Could be BMI or UA.

Because why would someone who flies mostly intra-european or German domestic on economy fares have any reason to be loyal to LH anymore? For 125 miles? You gotta be kidding me!

It amazes me that LH tries to combat low-cost carriers by diluting their own product and making it the same as the lowcosts instead of distinguishing theirs. This is a very shortsighted strategy IMO. And one that has failed for others before, just look at the sad state the US majors are in.

Good-bye M&M.
The problem is all major airlines like BA has already changed, or like LX they will move shortly, and then it takes not long time and AF and KL will do the same!
I would say if they bring fares like GERMANWINGS or HAPAGLOYDEXPRESS 19 and 29 Euros oneway incl. taxes for CGN-ROM/LIS/IST.... , it would be ok with no miles, but many of these "W" fares are still 280 Euros and more and that´s not a "low fare"!!! And as already posted here paying up to 1000 Euros for a "B" fare is so stupid if one get discounted "D" for less!!

Passenger_by_Passion

Mar 14, 04, 4:57 pm

bertheike

Mar 14, 04, 5:26 pm

Originally posted by bertheike:
[QUOTE]http://www.miles-and-more.com/LHeCMS/mediafiles/pdf/1/0,4396,242831,00.pdf
http://www.miles-and-more.com/LHeCMS/mediafiles/pdf/1/0,4396,242831,00.pdf

Someone should stop them to make marketing with slogans like more miles for higher- value tickets !!!
hats not true !!!
Within Germany and other European domestic , one will earn less miles after 01. Aug. in all classes ! ( also in higher value tickets ) C 1500 instead of 2000 , " B,Y " 750 instead of 1000
And international Europe it´s only "Y,B" earning 250 miles more !!! But other high class economy fares like "H" only earn 750 miles and this also if the real distance is much more like FRA-LIS/FAO/IST/ATH/LCA....
That´s LH´s new Fairness !?!

[This message has been edited by bertheike (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

ws8n

Mar 14, 04, 8:13 pm

I doubt if our voices will make much of an impact to LH. Most of LH customers are not FT'ers or even care much about FF miles. They just know that they chalk up some miles on their flight, and that is it.

I am certain M&M has done a risk analysis impact to see how much damage they will take from this change, and find it acceptable. I guess time will tell. FYI, I never liked LH, and only used it to bank my SQ C/F fares. While it is good till it last with bonus status miles at 250/375%, LH M&M is still the most generous among *A. If only the other carriers would wake up and promote their FFP with more generous bonus. (SQ I hope you are hearing this!!!)

demiurg

Mar 14, 04, 8:18 pm

Originally posted by bertheike:
If so I would say I know her !
...Possible personal information deleted...

I would think that such a discussion is out of place here.

I am also upset over some of the changes and will likely move part of my business to other carriers as a result, but only because PEM 'defends' the new rules this should certainly not justify a discussion about his/her personal information! IMHO we should stick to a discussion about the changes.

cjva

Mar 14, 04, 9:16 pm

I am mailing some uncredited boardingpasses to LH tomorrow. I will most probably include a letter expressing my dissatisfaction with LHMM changes and experssing a regret over such step LH has undertaken. Will detail basically points of concern discussed within this forum. I will post this letter draft for you to eventually use if you want to write Lufthansa.

I am offering a free website hosting and domain name registration through our company should anybody be willing to design a website maybe we can put something together.

[This message has been edited by cjva (edited Mar 14, 2004).]

Sydfly

Mar 14, 04, 10:53 pm

What happend to this relatively quiet and peaceful board over the weekend? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

I can't believe these changes! In the relative short time since I heard about this I came to the following conclusion:

As I don't fly paid C/F (only Y flights out of my own pocket) the reduction in bonus miles does not effect me here. It's nice that the award prices are getting cheaper at least for Y and C in some cases. Especially for Oz based members awards to Pacific/New Zealand are still far too expensive though.

The bad news of course is that they take away the 25% bonus on TG/SQ/OZ/NZ flights which will effect me most and which was mainly the reason why I joined LH. With this benefit gone there is no reason not to switch to another FFP as most will earn 100% miles for not too discounted Y fares such as H, M, and Q which I normally use. The amount of points needed to make *Gold are now far out of reach for me on LH (100k actual miles on *A vs. 50k on UA, 35k on AC, 50K on TG). So what's the point of sticking with them? The upgrade vouchers were a joke (at least for me as I was never able to use them on the flights I was booked on and from OZ it's not that simple to fly LH as you know) and are now an even greater joke. So I see no reason there either. Plus award levels are still higher on LH compared to most UA/AC awards.

So, unless something changes in the announced plans, I'm off to another carrier. LH in Y sucks anyway, so if I can avoid them in the future I'll be glad.

Does anyone know whether I can request that some flights I've taken earlier this year are deleted from my M&M account and credited to another *A carrier such as UA. You probably need to be a member of that program already for this to work. But has anyone done that in the past?

flamboyant 1

Mar 15, 04, 1:20 am

Post deleted to please Curt!

Information found.

Thanks Rudi and PEM!

[This message has been edited by flamboyant 1 (edited Mar 15, 2004).]

tcswede

Mar 15, 04, 1:31 am

Originally posted by PEM:
Hi tcswede

Don't let us talk about this too much...

PEM
sorry for being an egoistic PIG, but why should we not speak about what concerns us - I can understand the arguments that you put foreward - however they do not relate to my concerns. And that is where the words FAIR and FAITHFULL come into play - this is the heading for the changes and for me the result is exactly the opposite - again I view this from my personal view - which I assume most of us do, so why not speak about it. The supervisors I spoke to from both LH and LH M&M took to the same approach as you, not having a single argument that would be of my benefit from the changes - apart from being apologetic and turning to the arguments you posted that do NOT relate to my concers. Makes me feel really good http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif - NOT !!!

Cheers

Thomas

Rudi

Mar 15, 04, 1:33 am

Will Senators still have the overdraft function after August 1 ?
yes

Will the Senator Companion award be available after August 1 ?
yes

(UA office ZRH did only open at 9am today, I just called. The two yes above are to the best of their current knowledge - but 'nothing' is ever for sure in the longer term ...)

Football Fan

Mar 15, 04, 3:20 am

Originally posted by Rudi:
I don't like many of the changements either.

Nevertheless, I don't think it is a good idea to be 'agressiv' against a poster like PEM (whether he/she is a LH employee or not), 'that defends LH's policy here on FlyerTalk.

For me, I welcome all negativ or positiv thoughts/ideas/critics pro-/contra the changements of miles&more, and than can verify/controle/adjust my own opinion and decide better about my future ff-'strategy'. 

Please point out where someone has been aggressive to PEM or insulted him/her personally. I don't see it in this thread (unless saying someone works in Verl is considered an insult, which is a fair enough standpoint considering the location http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif).

Football Fan

Mar 15, 04, 3:27 am

Originally posted by tcswede:
PEM
sorry for being an egoistic PIG, but why should we not speak about what concerns us - I can understand the arguments that you put foreward - however they do not relate to my concerns. And that is where the words FAIR and FAITHFULL come into play - this is the heading for the changes and for me the result is exactly the opposite - again I view this from my personal view - which I assume most of us do, so why not speak about it. The supervisors I spoke to from both LH and LH M&M took to the same approach as you, not having a single argument that would be of my benefit from the changes - apart from being apologetic and turning to the arguments you posted that do NOT relate to my concers. Makes me feel really good http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif - NOT !!!

Cheers

Thomas

Thomas, I am pretty sure that PEM said "Let's not talk about it so much" because you will keep your current benefits or have them expanded as part of being a member of the new, "secret" top tier (that is why PEM said let's not talk about it so much, also typical Guetersloh/Verl attitude). For those who wonder what I am talking about, a Bertelsmann subsidiary runs Miles and More for LH.

Again, the changes are going exactly in the wrong direction. Funnily enough, there is a lot of heated debate in Germany about simplifying the tax system, but they keep making it more and more complicated and everyone knows it is a mess, but they cannot get it fixed. I know this is a different subject matter, but it is going in the same direction, and the same attitude of those who come up with this nonsense is behind it.

Football Fan

Mar 15, 04, 3:43 am

Originally posted by bertheike:
Originally posted by attorney28:
I say PEM works in Verl.
If so I would say I know her !
PE M
PE.....n Monika ?
and if this is right, there is another staff working with the same last name
PE.....n Birgit !

When I stated that I think PEM works in Verl, I did not mean to encourage a guessing game as to his/her identity, and I think we should not publish names or parts of names. But the lack of a dementi on PEM's part speaks volumes http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif. It was not all that hard to guess that the post was written by someone who was involved in coming up with this stuff. Some people are good at MS Excel...but they should work on their assumptions because they did not figure in customer backlash, negative PR, loss of goodwill, and increased cost due to customer dissatisfaction and increased calls to customer service phone lines - among many other factors.

Swanhunter

Mar 15, 04, 4:17 am

PEM and Rudi, many thanks for confirming the facts on the overdraft. That is indeed good news. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And a plea from a sometime participant on this board. It's always been a nice place to come and learn; so I am saddened about the personal nature of the some comments in this thread. Could we go back on topic?

daysleeper

Mar 15, 04, 4:18 am

Originally posted by tcswede:
I can only second that - to point out that thes chaneges are to the customers advantage - meaning more fair - especially in lieu of the SEN 50 K vouchers. It is not only hard to accept - it is almost impossible to comprehend. Last Year I received 16 and this year I would based on planned travel pattern have even more (before taking the consequences of the enhancement of the programme into consideration) So instead of receiven 35 - 40 vouchers for the period I would receive two - also an interesting view on fair - I would not receive more than anybody else. Great - I knew there was a reason to leave Sweden and all the equalitarian aspects but they seem to have caught up with me again ....

Cheers

Thomas

I'm pretty sure LH will do something for the new SuperSEN level customers to compensate them for the loss of these evouchers.

bertheike

Mar 15, 04, 4:38 am

Originally posted by daysleeper:
I'm pretty sure LH will do something for the new SuperSEN level customers to compensate them for the loss of these evouchers.
May be something like 100% bonus on LH/OS for "SUPER-SEN´s" + 10 SWU´s each year.

tcswede

Mar 15, 04, 4:41 am

Originally posted by attorney28:
Thomas, I am pretty sure that PEM said "Let's not talk about it so much" because you will keep your current benefits or have them expanded as part of being a member of the new, "secret" top tier (that is why PEM said let's not talk about it so much, also typical Guetersloh/Verl attitude). 

Attorney 28
Fair enough, I did not consider the statement by PEM in such a way. If it were the case I still stand by that LH should have taken a different route in terms of informing their customers and not making everybody upset, then to establish exceptions.

Thanks for the pointer - we shall see what comes.

Cheers

Thomas

Football Fan

Mar 15, 04, 4:43 am

Originally posted by tcswede:
If it were the case I still stand by that LH should have taken a different route in terms of informing their customers and not making everybody upset, then to establish exceptions.


I agree.

flamboyant 1

Mar 15, 04, 9:03 am

I just got a reply to my e-mail:

Dear [NAME],

Thank you for your email and for taking the time to inform us of your opinion.

Regardings your question about the new upgrade cost we wish to inform you that an adjustment has been made to reflect actual market conditions of Business and First Class fares paid. With our unrestricted fares we guarantee more advantages and flexibility. Therefore, the upgrade level is linked to the booking class. That means, passengers who paid more for their ticket will need less miles for an upgrade. - [My comment:]This is not true in relation to the old upgrade levels, no upgrades are cheaper from Aug.1 on.

Furthermore, as of August 1, 2004, the Executive Bonus is reserved exclusively for Miles & More joint operators and close airline partners. You will receive the Executive Bonus on flights operated by LH, the OS Group, LOT, UA, Air Dolomiti and Air One. More partners granting the Executive Bonus will be announced soon. - A bit hope left, please include SQ in this bonus system!

Concerning the matter about the Frequent Traveller and Senator Status qualification requirements we wish to inform you that there are not changes about it.

Moreover, even within the Star Alliance all members are individual carriers with their own individual frequent flyer programs. Due to differences and individuality of the frequent flyer programs you can not compare mileage accrual and redemption levels. Nevertheless compared to other frequent flyer programs Miles & More has still a quite generous accrual structure. - I made a few redemption examples (LH vs. UA and BMI) which were never commented on.

tcswede

Mar 15, 04, 9:41 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
I just got a reply to my e-mail:
Dear [NAME],
Thank you for your email and for taking the time to inform us of your opinion.


See it on the positive side - I sent an email outlining questions similar to the post that I raised above in terms of reduction based on my travel profile including the impact of eVouchers.

Yes I got a response within one day - great as for response rate - but it was a pretyped message on why the changes are needed from a business sense. Not a SINGLE word on what I had queried about - it seems as if someone just hit the reply button with their standard answer - before PEM comments - I am aware that LH M&M has more customers than me to serve http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif - but if they are going to answer, they should do it properly because this really Pi**ed me off http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif - bigtime
This is just arrogant in terms of customer relationship.

Cheers

Thomas

flamboyant 1

Mar 15, 04, 9:53 am

Thomas,

I had the same feeling. The e-mail did not contain answers to my specific questions which actually included the ridiculous award - upgrade calculations, SEN companion award, overdraft and why the miles for F on partners were reduced from 375% to 300%.

They actually sound as if the new executive bonus was better than under the old rules... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

curt

Mar 15, 04, 10:04 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
Is it so hard to answer the two questions above ?Is it so hard to scroll through this page of the thread??? PEM posted on Mar 14, 2004 12:21 PM:
Hi
I better stop to show up my point of view cause it seems quite different to yours. ;-)

But i give you the answers you need.

- Overdraw of account for SEN 160,000 Mls will not be reduced.

- No changes to SEN companion award.


There is absolutely no need to be so harsh with the other poster.

ralfkrippner

Mar 15, 04, 10:18 am

I also sent an email to LH and got a very similar (but longer reply) which is partly identical to the text posted above.

Of course they have canned answers to those emails they get, delete the one passage and add another to give the customer the feeling that it is an individual answer.

But it is a marketing answer, not one that really addresses my questions.

I have done my share in communications to LH.

I was a loyal customer. I will be a customer that picks the airline that suits best for best price in the future.

flamboyant 1

Mar 15, 04, 10:36 am

Originally posted by curt:
There is absolutely no need to be so harsh with the other poster.

Your post adds no value to this thread as does my post right here:

Why in the world is your post here necessary ? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
I mean, you dig on another page just to tell another FT what is right and what is wrong to post, just do that in the Randy Petersen Forum.

Or just read over redundant phrases and neglect them.

I was not harsh, also not in my e-mail which I did write in a friendly language, however it did not yield a sufficient response, therefore I asked here once more.

TRESY

Mar 15, 04, 2:16 pm

I too got a prompt reply to my e-mail.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

We shall forward your views to the appropriate department.

Please undertsand that Miles & More was devised to award customers' loyalty to Lufthansa and, as in the case of every airmiles' or bonus programme, it was necessary to set certain ground rules, which can be altered without notice.

However, the Senator Overdraft facility will remain the same.

Sincerely,
Your Lufthansa Miles & More Team"

That actually answered 1 of my questions.

I havew been reading this long thread, but have ALL of you that have contributed either e-mailed or written to LH. If not, then why are you restricting your comments to others like myself who also feel "injured" by the LH initiative. LH will not ignore a mountain of adverse letters. KLM didn't.

paulusst

Mar 15, 04, 3:14 pm

I wouldnt write to them because:

1) admitedly the changes arent to bad for me

2) I dont need one of the "nice you took your time, but we dont give a sh!t" pre-compiled answers

3) they wont listen anyway, why should they?

4) they will only listen to complaints of really high-revenue PAX and most of them a) fly the highest class available anyway and b) do not care too much for miles (tcswede and Uli excluded http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) as they are happy for every day they do not have to fly

5) they will wait what revenue and yield are after the changes are implemented. Remember the classical Mr. Weber quote about why LH has no PTV in Y when almost every competitor has? It was along the lines of: "Why should we if we are still full in the back". Look at the new A340/600, the new seats already have a hole in the seat back but LH will only implement PTV's when they cannot sell the seats without anymore ... Ask LH about their seat-wise sub-par F offering, the answer is: "our booking situation in F leads us to believe that we are quite competetive in this segment, why should we change it?"

6) so if I need to complain about any changes (and if they really implement the prepackaged meal/artificial orange juice pack on european flights, I will) then complain by using taking your Euros/Dollars elsewhere, at least you wont get a "p!ss off" answer ...

7) as someone else wrote here, there is nothing like a free lunch and I dont take it for granted to get F tickets to Asia for ~ 1000 EUR or empty a bottle of champagne for free before flying a multi-sector continental flight for EUR 111, just because I developed a habbit for hunting miles. Its nice as long as it lasts, but I can see the problems for LH to justify this economically.

Then again, I am not forced to fly 3-5 times a week by some bloody employer and do not see miles as part of my compensation for a though job. I really understand the outrage when LH is taking away part of your hard earned currency, but then I would ask my employer to cough up the difference. I fear LH is not the right target in this case. They couldnt care less, until you leave (if you can, most cannot - company contracts, schedule, etc.)

Just my 2 Eurocents

andyZRH

Mar 15, 04, 5:20 pm

First, I'm not a M&M member, since I never found it to be an attractive program for someone like me who flies paid Y or upgraded C most of the time, but some of these changes look so painfully stupid, that I couldn't hold back with my comments!

- confusing mileage earning scheme: while I understand that they don't want to shell out a lot of miles for someone flying on an ultra-cheap fare, the proposed minimum of 125 for intra-europe flights is just plain ridiculous. I don't consider lousy 125 miles per segment an incentive to choose LH over Easyjet & Co. Since they already reduced the mileage earned on most economy fares by 25% or 50% (and capped it at that level to boot!) they could have stuck with that, without further confusing the customers.
The whole mileage earning scheme is a terrible example of inconsistency anyway: B & Y domestic gets 750 miles, international 1250, but the minimum for non-european flights is 750 again. S & W on non-european flts earn 50% of the mileage flown, but the minimum (500 miles) is still the same as for the higher economy classes which earn 100%, etc.

- punishing their best customers: even business class and high-fare economy pax get less miles on domestic routes. Then they reduce the exec bonus by not applying it to the class of service bonus anymore, which affects the high-paying First and Business class pax only. To top it off, they massively reduce the number of upgrade vouchers that SENs receive, thereby reducing an important benefit to their most frequent flyers.

- outrageously priced upgrades: to many destinations a round-trip upgrade from economy (except B and Y) to business costs MORE than a FREE flight in business, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen! I'd LOVE to hear how the guys who came up with that are justifying it!

[This message has been edited by andyZRH (edited Mar 15, 2004).]

Peter M

Mar 16, 04, 12:25 am

I never found LH to be generous compared to the US FF programs, but now it has just gone rediculous. One advantage was that it was easy to understand, not any more. The loss of the 50K vouchers and increased cost of upgrades has made this program more uncompetative compared with the UA and BMI programs. I had already started to switch 2 years ago.

Mr Weber was an economist and we should have expected finance-related changes to M&M after he was appointed. Now here they are. I expect an internal study showed the M&M changes will save LH money through reduced numbers of upgrades and award redemptions. The problem is that FF programs are in place to retain and reward customer loyalty. A major goal being to generate ticket sales and avoid customer migration to rivals. IMO the M&M managers should have adjusted the M&M program to stop customers buying tickets on rival carriers and low cost airlines. - DL has successfully stopped the growth of low cost carriers out of its hubs using it's FF program. If I was at LH I'd want to use the same tactic. - Because once a route has gone 'very low fare' - there appears to be no return to premium fare traffic. Just as BMI what happend to its domestic routes in the last few years. Now that LH have done the opposite, we can expect Air Berlin and the others to do very well at LH expense.

As for the new SuperSEN Status retaining the old benefits for the best LH customers. I think that's wishful thinking, as the LH focus seems to me to be intent on cutting award redemptions and upgrades.

oliver2002

Mar 16, 04, 12:27 am

I must join paullust here.

Collecting miles is a side benefit of travelling and not a normal travellers puropse of life.

If I have to privately travel somewhere, I take the miles into account, but the price of the other airline or alliance is really better (after considering the cost of lost LH miles), they get my business already.

My company has a deal with LH and preferably issues *A tix in our travel office. BUT if there is a deal to be made in intercontinental travel, they will insist we travel the other airline. Since travel is in C/D, loungue access is guaranteed anyway. A business intercontinental return on any airline always gives you a free intra europe ticket to spend privately.

What concerns me is that I feel these changes will lead up to regulation of miles via the german tax guys. Anybody who looks into this topic realises miles have a clear monetary value and the taxman will not ignore this perk for long.

Why are some of you guys attacking each other explicitly? This forum is about the passion of collecting miles and benefitting from FFPs. Admittedly none of us are 'normal', but it is a fair game: FFPs make the rules, we find ways to live with it and benefit more than the regular traveller.

After the dust settles, I am sure this forum will buzz with suggestions how to get full miles and exec bonus on that not so obvious route from a CAI-like place.

Happy FTing

Regards Oliver

Passenger_by_Passion

Mar 16, 04, 2:04 am

Originally posted by oliver2002:
I must join paullust here.

Collecting miles is a side benefit of travelling and not a normal travellers puropse of life.

If I have to privately travel somewhere, I take the miles into account, but the price of the other airline or alliance is really better (after considering the cost of lost LH miles), they get my business already.

My company has a deal with LH and preferably issues *A tix in our travel office. BUT if there is a deal to be made in intercontinental travel, they will insist we travel the other airline. Since travel is in C/D, loungue access is guaranteed anyway. A business intercontinental return on any airline always gives you a free intra europe ticket to spend privately.

What concerns me is that I feel these changes will lead up to regulation of miles via the german tax guys. Anybody who looks into this topic realises miles have a clear monetary value and the taxman will not ignore this perk for long.

Why are some of you guys attacking each other explicitly? This forum is about the passion of collecting miles and benefitting from FFPs. Admittedly none of us are 'normal', but it is a fair game: FFPs make the rules, we find ways to live with it and benefit more than the regular traveller.

After the dust settles, I am sure this forum will buzz with suggestions how to get full miles and exec bonus on that not so obvious route from a CAI-like place.

Happy FTing

Regards Oliver

I am sure, new ways of benefitting will be discovered.
Do not worry about taxes on miles.
The german tax department have had the miles in focus already some years ago. So afaik an agreement was set up, that LH pays a flat tax rate for all the miles given to their customers to avoid them having to pay taxes for them. Otherwise M&M would obviously not be globally competitive.

tcswede

Mar 16, 04, 2:17 am

Originally posted by paulusst:
I wouldnt write to them because:

4) they will only listen to complaints of really high-revenue PAX and most of them a) fly the highest class available anyway and b) do not care too much for miles (tcswede and Uli excluded http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) as they are happy for every day they do not have to fly

...
Just my 2 Eurocents

Hi paulusst,
the points that you raise are all fair and valid. The miles collecting has simply become a nice fringe benefit. It enbables me to take my better half along more often than once a year. Rest assure that I try to keep my "extra" travel to a minimum. If i have some time over i have gone through DXB to CAI - because it is nice and I like DXB but otherwise I spend enough time in the plane as you point out.
Whilst many can not care less, I must admit I care somewhat - yes I have cry about the vouchers and most seldom I have used them - as you I have trown away quite a few of them in the past - and the new eVouchers are currently simply adding up - I am just waiting for LH to announce a use by date.

What really iritates me is the approach LH has taken in this, and hence I have made my opinion vocal towards LH.
I can fully understand the financial needs of LH and by consequence the changes in M&M.
But do they need to treat me as if I am a complete moron in terms of their communication. Talking about fairness and loyalty - it does not relate in any way to the impact it has upon me - of course the changes are bad - but I can live with them - partially because of a lack of alternatives. But to feed me a line of marketing Bulls* is simply to much to take. Valued customer bla bla...
Of course they can not care less about any opinion but at least it improves my feel good factor to respond rather than just receiving this crap. I unfortunately have to fly on routes which due to the monopoly situation are among the highest in the world considering actual distance - Germany - Scandinavia - on a weekly basis with higly flexible ticket needs - at least I would like to be treated with some respect and not as if I am a complete fool.

Cheers

Thomas

juergenritz

Mar 16, 04, 3:56 am

Hello,
I ccan only tell how I will ride the LH have.
I am LH Sen up to 02/07. Due to that I will use all my e-coupons and miles and the 160 overcraft credit.......
On the other hand side for folks traveleing to the US United airlines has some great offers. First they give you 6 upgrades (valid for interkonti upgrades ) for flying
100 K each year (1K) 100 % executive Bonus on UA,US, and selected LH flights, great promotions like 3 x base miles when flying 10000 in Jan 2004 in bookingclasses higher then W (V is working..)
And other uprgades... , I think LH has a got shoot in Europe but in the US I am not so shure.
Also UA has economy plus for free (more legroom..), bulkhead can be reserved and FTL can reserve EXit row ...
For me a real alternativ bercause I am based in the US at the moment. (I can still drink my free beer and Leberkaese in the future in MUC) ;-)
JR

paulusst

Mar 16, 04, 5:13 am

Originally posted by tcswede:
What really iritates me is the approach LH has taken in this, and hence I have made my opinion vocal towards LH.
...
But to feed me a line of marketing Bulls* is simply to much to take. Valued customer bla bla...
I would like to be treated with some respect and not as if I am a complete fool.


Thomas,

you are absolutely right. But that is exactly why I dont care anymore, they wont listen and they make you feel it. Still part of that of that monopoly thinking on their side, esp. with german customers whom they think have no alternative.

Just thought about this little comparison (I know its retail vs. services revenue, but still). Say you buy a MB car every three years for ~60k EUR. That makes 20k / year revenue for Mercedes-Benz be it out of your own pocket or because your employer "forces" you to buy this particular make and you have no choice. Has MB ever forgotten your birthday? Not invited you to try new models or have an informal get together at least once a year? Has MB ever waited to implement a product innovation until all competitors had it? Not offered you a special (roofless) car for that weekend getaway with the Mrs? And most of all, Ever ignored an complaint, not reacted swiftly when you point out product deficencies??? And all of this after you negotiate a 11% discount every time you buy one, what is the miles rebate in comparison ...

Now compare this to a >20k EUR/ year revenue LH customer, the typical SEN and an ammount tons of people here do. See the problem LH has?

[This message has been edited by paulusst (edited Mar 16, 2004).]

daysleeper

Mar 16, 04, 8:26 am

Originally posted by paulusst:

7) as someone else wrote here, there is nothing like a free lunch and I dont take it for granted to get F tickets to Asia for ~ 1000 EUR or empty a bottle of champagne for free before flying a multi-sector continental flight for EUR 111, just because I developed a habbit for hunting miles. Its nice as long as it lasts, but I can see the problems for LH to justify this economically.


See, for example LH is foolish enough to give 5.000 miles for a train ride which costs 66EUR, or 10.000 miles now with the Wintermeilen promo. Of course LH is suffering from this economically but it's pure stupidity to allow this mile runs or sell cheapo F tickets from CAI or whereever and NOW punish their very best customers like tcswede to compensate that "loss".

But I guess these things happen when 30somethings with a calculator at hand rule a company.

paulusst

Mar 16, 04, 10:58 am

Originally posted by daysleeper:
See, for example LH is foolish enough to give 5.000 miles for a train ride which costs 66EUR, ... Of course LH is suffering from this economically but it's pure stupidity to allow this mile runs or sell cheapo F tickets from CAI or whereever and NOW punish their very best customers like tcswede to compensate that "loss".


No, all these examples make a lot of sense for LH. CAI flights in F are cheap because they compete there on the Egyptian market, they cannot charge more there to some destinations (Asia). What else can they do than sell these tickets SITI and punish those who skip the first coupon to prevent milagerunners from using these fares.

AiRail makes a lot of sense too. The desperately need the slots at FRA and would like to quit flying STR-FRA and CGN-FRA rather sooner than later . If they wouldnt give miles for the train rides there wouldnt be too many regular flyers switching to the train. There was a time when they thought they had to give triple miles for AiRail in order to convince people to switch. (OK, maybe that was a bit over the top http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif )

Its not calulating errors but a real dilemma, they cant do much about it other then reducing overall milage credit. And for customers like tcswede, they will have a new status level that I think will make those very happy. I just have a problem why they choose to not communicate this at the same time. But as said before communication isnt the strongest part of LH. Would have been so easy:

"Fair is fair: If you are a really valued customer we will have these and these service improvements for you and a shiny prestigeous new card to show off. If you are a Y flying AiRail SEN - we are sorry to have to tell you, but b!gger off!"

daysleeper

Mar 16, 04, 12:55 pm

Originally posted by paulusst:

AiRail makes a lot of sense too. The desperately need the slots at FRA and would like to quit flying STR-FRA and CGN-FRA rather sooner than later . If they wouldnt give miles for the train rides there wouldnt be too many regular flyers switching to the train. There was a time when they thought they had to give triple miles for AiRail in order to convince people to switch. (OK, maybe that was a bit over the top http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif )


It's very simple, to direct all Pax to Airrail and ward off milerunners:

1. LH should adjust their booking engine so every time someone books a flight STR-FRA-XYZ the departure would be ZWS instead of STR. And it should NOT be necessary - as it happened to me quite a few times - that I have to request my travel agency to change my booking manually from STR to ZWS.

2. No miles for a simple ZWS-FRA run. LHs IT department should be able to fix that within 5 lines of program code. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

tcswede

Mar 16, 04, 1:43 pm

Originally posted by paulusst:
AiRail makes a lot of sense too. ... There was a time when they thought they had to give triple miles for AiRail in order to convince people to switch. (OK, maybe that was a bit over the top http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif )


But even with the triple miles, they did not really manage to get the Pax tu use the Airrail instead of the flights from STR. Even then the flights were often full and one had to take the Airrail as a last resort.
ZWS makes only sense for someone living in Stuttgart or directly north - otherwise I would venture to say that STR is more convenient - especially for someone like me coming straight from the south - with about 15 - 20 min door 2 door. Going to ZWS it is easy double not to mention rushhour...

How many years have they tried in various versions - IIRC the first time I travelled on LH Airail must have been around 90 or 91 - at least early 90's and still they have not been able to do away with the flights from STR to FRA.

Cheers

Thomas

tcswede

Mar 16, 04, 1:50 pm

Originally posted by paulusst:

... And for customers like tcswede, they will have a new status level that I think will make those very happy. I just have a problem why they choose to not communicate this at the same time. But as said before communication isnt the strongest part of LH. Would have been so easy:

"Fair is fair: If you are a really valued customer we will have these and these service improvements for you and a shiny prestigeous new card to show off. If you are a Y flying AiRail SEN - we are sorry to have to tell you, but b!gger off!"

Thank you for your kind consideration and speculation.
But I guess I will not belong to that group - I have today also received the Info directed at the SEN. I wont comment again on the stupidity of the marketing crap they try to spin - that really is just to much of an insult. LH should actually realize that in fact the majority of their PAX do not live in the woods and walk around on all four "legs".
You are absolutely correct in that their Customer relationship is simply put POOR.

On a side note a Supervisor advised me that the new programme will be launched in Summer - title / name will be Imperator - do not know what the abreviation will be - IMP ?!?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Cheers

Thomas

AJLondon

Mar 16, 04, 2:04 pm

Originally posted by tcswede:
On a side note a Supervisor advised me that the new programme will be launched in Summer - title / name will be Imperator - do not know what the abreviation will be - IMP ?!?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Cheers

Thomas

Is that a whole new program instead of or along with Miles and More or is it just the name of the New Super Senator / Platinum level...
Any info, qualification details etc would be greatly appreciated tcswede!
Also, anybody know what Imperator means...?

tcswede

Mar 16, 04, 2:22 pm

Originally posted by AJLondon:
Is that a whole new program instead of or along with Miles and More or is it just the name of the New Super Senator / Platinum level...
Any info, qualification details etc would be greatly appreciated tcswede!
Also, anybody know what Imperator means...?



Sorry for the confusion - this will be the new top level of M&M (In honour of the famous Geman football player Beckenbauer - a.k.a as Kaiser http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif - sorry could not resist - just kidding)

Imperator = Kaiser = Emporer.

Regarding qualification the Supervisor did not want to disclose anything.

This has been discussed in the past - do a search on FT as there were a lot of opinions and I do not want to enter a discussion again on the validity of source of informations again.

Cheers

Thomas

[This message has been edited by tcswede (edited Mar 16, 2004).]

davidcito

Mar 17, 04, 8:13 am

FYI:

Just received the information from OS that in the new M&M scheme for AT-based people qualification levels are downgraded to 35k/100k again (This was the case until 1.1.2003 when they change to the standards for German SENs/FTLs).

Source: OS newsletter

If I understand correctly M&M is desperately trying to get rid of a certain percentage of SEN/FTLs. So what possible sense would the above mentioned move make?

chapinpirulin

Mar 17, 04, 8:42 am

Originally posted by davidcito:
FYI:

If I understand correctly M&M is desperately trying to get rid of a certain percentage of SEN/FTLs. So what possible sense would the above mentioned move make?

It does not make any sense. We all remember the discussions on this board at the end of last year, when the 10th anniversary of M&M came to the mind of somebody at Verl.
Consistency in messages to your customers is what they teach you in the 1st semester at business school, but than it has been a very long time since many people went to school :-)

MumbaiDan

Mar 17, 04, 11:32 am

why do we not conclude that M&M people are senseless?

I do not understand the changes a bit! Why would they further congest C class by reducing the mileage level and at the same time upgrading their product, having the same level for a downgraded F product (LH F gets worse verey year), decrease perks for heavy flyers (50K Upgrades, status bonus) and give up the advantage of M&M in Star (and over oneworld) by excluding the status bonus from Star flights?

I understand their move towards the cheapies, I agree they should fly KLM. After all thats where they belong.

I personally feel that LH urgently needs a new management and advisory Board. Actually they would require people who really travel on their Boards, not German sofa boopers.

Lately I even feel not really safe with them anymore. Last sunday I flew from FRA to BOM in F and had the worst maintained aircraft ever. Actually they claimed that there where baggage delays (one hour), but the captain told me later that they had mechanical problems, why they also did not pull the gear up for ten minutes after take off.......

flamboyant 1

Mar 17, 04, 12:46 pm

Mechanical problem, letting the gear down in case of an emergency landing...(

andyZRH

Mar 17, 04, 2:37 pm

Originally posted by davidcito:
Just received the information from OS that in the new M&M scheme for AT-based people qualification levels are downgraded to 35k/100k again (This was the case until 1.1.2003 when they change to the standards for German SENs/FTLs).

Source: OS newsletter

If I understand correctly M&M is desperately trying to get rid of a certain percentage of SEN/FTLs. So what possible sense would the above mentioned move make?

Well, maybe OS management has a different opinion on this than LH/M&M.

AJLondon

Mar 17, 04, 3:14 pm

Originally posted by MumbaiDan:
Why would they further congest C class by reducing the mileage level and at the same time upgrading their product, having the same level for a downgraded F product



Well, the way I interpret the changes is that the change for C class awards can be bad/very bad for you depending on your flying pattern. F class awards are now definitely more expensive, even though mileage level for spending is same. My reasoning is based on the fact that for all flights I take I am now going to be earning less, so it will take me longer to earn the 140k to burn on a FRA-DEL F award.

Two earning examples:
BKK-SGN in LH F earlier 3750 (incl bonus) now 1875 miles. A decrease of 50% in earning...
FRA-LHR in Eco (Q, H class etc): earlier 1250 miles, now 625 miles. A 50% cut.
FRA-LHR in Discounted eco(L,T class): earlier 1250 miles, now 156 miles. A decrease of about 87% http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

So my point is that it will be much harder to earn now, especially for the newer and comped members who don't have a decent nest egg of miles already, to redeem even for those 90k C awards.

flamboyant 1

Mar 18, 04, 3:40 am

Members in the U.S. will no longer receive the generous 3750 miles per short (<1000 miles) domestic F segment on UA and US.

Horrible!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif 50% decrease in earnings. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

Two earning examples for SEN/FTL:
SIN-CGK in LH F earlier 3750 (incl bonus) now 1875 miles. A decrease of 50% in earning...
FRA-LHR in Eco (Q, H class etc): earlier 1250 miles, now 625 miles. A 50% cut.
FRA-LHR in Discounted eco(L,T class): earlier 1250 miles, now 156 miles. A decrease of about 87%

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

flamboyant 1

Mar 19, 04, 3:49 am

Originally posted by Lux:
Senator Gold arrived today, valid until 2007! Thank you photoshop. Did nobody else fiddle their statement to increase their status?

For us they make it harder to retain SEN and less worthwhile and those who alter their Blue or Silver BA status account statements are comped to SEN. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

flamboyant 1

Mar 19, 04, 3:53 am

Originally posted by Lux:
Fiddle with the HTML, change blue to gold, up your points and you're on your way. Oh, there is one other thing to change but they probably won't notice.

Grog

Mar 19, 04, 4:03 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
For us they make it harder to retain SEN and less worthwhile and those who alter their Blue or Silver BA status account statements are comped to SEN. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

And, given the 1 Aug changes, these new Senators will be using the LH lounges but not even flying LH.

So, for the next few years, instead of the lounge being full of LH customers, often on low-fares (but at least giving LH the cash), they'll be filled with BA customers looking for a quick snack before their BA flight back to LHR. It's a mad, mad world.

With these changes, has LH become enough like BA to really think they'll take a chunk of their customer base?

--Grog--

Rudi

Mar 19, 04, 4:52 am

I understand the bad feelings existing LH status holders have, when they notice how others get status and perks easier (for free).

I don't think there will be really a relevant number of UK based BA Fliers who will
1st) stretch the comping offer the way some 'crazy' ones seem to recommend
2nd) really use 'our' LH lounges when flying BA (as these lounges are often far away from BA gates).
3rd) taking 'away' Upgrade space, as their vouchers are only stand-by vouchers (we can confirm upgrades with miles or Senator vouchers at booking, or if waitlisted are ahead of them).

this is also a specific topic "UK status comp promotion abuse !!!" here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum32/HTML/003890.html

bernie

Mar 19, 04, 7:49 am

Hi all .... had been on a meeting the entire week so this is the first time I'm able to participate.

Opposed to others on this board I strongly believe in not staying quiet. I did send a complaint to M&M via their "feedback" form at the "New M&M" website, in which I did some maths comparing the new mileage possibilities exactly to the flts I took in 2003:

"Loosing some 25k miles on intra German biz, some 10 k miles on intra US F, loosing some 15 k miles on int'l F flts due to the changements re exec bonus, which totals to some 50k miles devaluating M&M in a very dramatic way regarding I gained some 225 k miles in 03 under the old rules = devalution by almost 25 %. Not to mention the loss of 3 up vouchers, which would leave me short by another 150k miles advantage. To call this "getting vouchers faster" being outrageous. I asked them if this was the way they value customers with my travel habits mostly flying biz and F and I heavily expressed my anger about the marketing bla bla, as if I was stupid and wouldn't be capable to understand what they are really doing. Of course it is your decision how you will honor my business, but it is my decision if I will give you the opportunity to do so in the future if LH stands by its devaluation of its program for me".

I was quite surprised getting a non standard email the next day: "Sorry we couldn't reach you over the phone etc.... we would like to talk to you in person" When I came home yesterday night I found two messages on my AM urging me to call so they would be able to talk to me.

So .. today I had a quite lengthy phone conversation with some supervisor at M&M. To shortly resume: The changements have come directly from LH management. M&M has only been "involved". They seem to be quite surprised over the very harsh reaction from customers and they are veeery unhappy with the way it had been marketed. Obviously being "frightened" by those heavy first reactions from customers they seem to already rethink some of the new rules. Maybe it even was part of the strategy to at least get some of this stuff done.

Based on this experience I can only recommend: Complain, complain, complain
if you wanna change some of this stuff you simply can't stay quiet.

If someone is interested in the guys phone and name - email me.

[This message has been edited by bernie (edited Mar 19, 2004).]

flamboyant 1

Mar 19, 04, 7:55 am

Bernie,

I think you are right. A thread with all downsides and the crazy math (upgrades-awards mileage cost) and comp procedures should be created. Then everyone can copy/paste what he or she thinks is a horrible treatment of a loyal customer and then send it to LH.

Why does LH screw those who pay for First Class and even pay for FC on short international segments outside Europe ?

eMailman

Mar 19, 04, 8:11 am

Thanks bernie, the impact is even more severe for US M&M members. So I am off to send the US team the benefit of my thoughts.

Tim2008

Mar 19, 04, 10:35 am

I have scheduled a meeting with my key accounter on Tuesday...

bertheike

Mar 20, 04, 4:27 am

Originally posted by Tim2008:
I have scheduled a meeting with my key accounter on Tuesday...
OUTLINED !!!
But just interested " where/or what on earth is From: Pangaea "

flamboyant 1

Mar 20, 04, 5:36 am

A fancy club in NYC where few real and some pseudo celebrities meet, mingle and get drunk.

Pangaea 417 Lafayette Street between
Astor Place and 4th Street New York, NY.

www.google.com (http://www.google.com) - search for "pangaea ny"

demiurg

Mar 20, 04, 5:47 am

Originally posted by bertheike:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim2008:
[b]where/or what on earth is From: Pangaea

Pangaea is the name of the ur-continent before it broke-up and eventually seperated into the continents we now know.

Tim2008

Mar 20, 04, 6:26 am

Originally posted by flamboyant 1:
A fancy club in NYC where few real and some pseudo celebrities meet, mingle and get drunk.

Pangaea 417 Lafayette Street between
Astor Place and 4th Street New York, NY.

www.google.com (http://www.google.com) - search for "pangaea ny"

And London as well as Puerto Banus...

Counsellor

Mar 21, 04, 2:25 am

Originally posted by bertheike:
where on earth is From: Pangaea


Yes. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

deneru

Mar 21, 04, 4:04 am

How to book then (and some reflections)
---------------------------------------

Let's face it, from August 1rst LH & M&M will introduce a new system (maybe with a few more changes to make us less angry).

From my part I can tell that I will be renewing the SEN status every year due to my patterns of flying.

One of the most interesting issues I want to check how they solve it's the internet booking (specially in cheap economy fares), becasue now they must show the options of the cheap economy (Q i.e.) or ultra cheap economy (W i.e.). So far I tried to book for post-D-day and I can't not choose the type of fares (for sure W it's not on sale yet).

The only website that offers the option to choose between cheap fare and almost no miles and 'normal' fares and miles it's SQ.

Based in Spain I have plenty of options to go to all europe for very cheap prizes (9 EUR to fly to FRA or 20 EUR to fly to AMS i.e.), so what will be my choice?

Something I don't think the LH & M&M people consider it's the loyalty they created in us (yes, some of us maybe fanatics indeed), and with this action they just give us a strong signal about what they want from us (only the money). I already introduced more than 15 people to the LH M&M miles reward program. Will I introduce more?, no, I don't think so... Remember that we as a air travellers (for business or pleasure) have good reasons to recommend fly patterns to occasionals travellers (wich they nevery achieve more than 30000 miles in 2 or 3 years) and give more revenue to some companies.

KLM and Air France merged. Iberia and BA are going soon to merge. Alitalia is going also to merge with the KML-Airfrance. We are the only people who can make the difference (specially out of Germany, Austria...) because I can choose between more and more offers. Do they want me?

seanyjmuc

Mar 21, 04, 4:55 am

I am pretty late in recording my views on the latest news, but suffice it to say, the changes are an OUTRAGE.

The reason I invested all flights on *A/LH was because I was annoyed by the BA Exec club's program. Now it would appear that the LH MM program is going the same way; reward the rich and those lucky enough to have F/C tickets bought by their company and punish those who fly economy/on low fares, irrelevant of how often they do so.

Personally, I never fly F or intercontinental C and have somehow managed to get to Gold status via flying economy, which, as you may imagine, means a hell of a lot of flights. In some respects, you could argue that people like me are the true loyal fans. Let's face it, if you can afford F/C tickets, you can afford to fly with any main carrier; the products at that level are pretty much the same. The fact that I have invested all my flight expense into one carrier in order to pool miles and benefits now seems to be irrelevant to LH. Come August 1, the amount of miles awarded for cheap eco fares will be pathetic. The question therefore Herr Weber (LH's CEO) is why should I continue to fly LH when I could fly EasyJet/Ryanair for a fraction of the price. I may not get a free drink or sandwich, but then you are not offering anything better. Yes, I will be Gold until 2006 and I can use the SEN lounges, but they are far too full at the best of times anyway and the Gold status doesn't seem to offer anything out of the ordinary. With the new changes, it would appear that I will not be able to renew the Gold status, so, Mr Weber, you can expect one less customer.

And as a marketing director, please change your tagline of "LH, there's no better way to fly". With the new changes in the M&M program, this statement borders on being libellous. Furthermore, have you ever flown eco transatlantic in LH? Pathetic.

Rudi

Mar 21, 04, 5:20 am

I understand your rant.

one correction: LH CEO is now Wolfgang Mayrhuber.

Football Fan

Mar 21, 04, 6:00 am

Originally posted by seanyjmuc:
The reason I invested all flights on *A/LH was because I was annoyed by the BA Exec club's program. Now it would appear that the LH MM program is going the same way; reward the rich and those lucky enough to have F/C tickets bought by their company and punish those who fly economy/on low fares, irrelevant of how often they do so.

Personally, I never fly F or intercontinental C and have somehow managed to get to Gold status via flying economy, which, as you may imagine, means a hell of a lot of flights. In some respects, you could argue that people like me are the true loyal fans. Let's face it, if you can afford F/C tickets, you can afford to fly with any main carrier; the products at that level are pretty much the same. The fact that I have invested all my flight expense into one carrier in order to pool miles and benefits now seems to be irrelevant to LH. Come August 1, the amount of miles awarded for cheap eco fares will be pathetic. The question therefore Herr Weber (LH's CEO) is why should I continue to fly LH when I could fly EasyJet/Ryanair for a fraction of the price. I may not get a free drink or sandwich, but then you are not offering anything better. 

Contrary to many here, THIS is one of my main gripes with LH's changes - they are all geared in one direction - show the economy customer that he is basically unwelcome.

125 miles for W fares?

Food service not better than on Air Berlin or the like?

Reduced leg space in economy?

No more upgrades on "cheap" economy fares (in reality, they are still not that cheap!)?

930 Euro for an economy flight from MUC to CDG?

To some markets, like Scandinavia, LH/SAS have a quasi-monopoly, and they are charging outrageous prices, even in economy.

What's next, getting smacked with a baseball bat every time you fly economy on LH?

It is becoming practically impossible to get any benefit from flying economy other than lounge access, which will be shared with many comped passengers! You earn practically no miles, you cannot upgrade anymore, you have to squeeze yourself into a seat with ridiculously little leg room and you get less food than on the discount carriers, where at least you can buy more food/drinks for a reasonable fee.

To be doing this in times where many companies are restricting their employees to flying economy is a kick in the face of the many people who have no other choice but to fly LH economy.

And another thing, disallowing upgrades from "cheap" economy fares is also unacceptable. Let's face it, one of the main benefits of a frequent flyer program is that you can earn miles on business flights and then draw a benefit from it when you fly for leisure. Many of us are (still) in the situation that we fly business class on company travel, but we surely do not/cannot pay for business class on leisure travel. After having worked hard the whole year and having racked up miles by traveling for our company back and forth, we would love to get that reasonably priced economy ticket to a nice destination, let's say Florida, and use our hard-earned miles to upgrade to business class, no matter what we paid for the economy ticket.

After all, remember, we are not taking away inventory that was going to be sold for full-fare C!!!!

Now, LH is completely prohibiting that, which is nothing but a slap in the face!!! What do they expect us to do, buy a business class seat for a vacation trip? Or an economy ticket that is almost as expensive?! That is ridiculous!

THIS right there is one of the worst parts of the changes!

Not to mention that things get overly complicated because one has to concern oneself with the different booking classes when making a booking, which are often not even disclosed until you actually book the ticket in many booking engines!!!!!!!

Overall, I am most upset with LH for how it treats leisure economy flyers (which is almost everyone unless you really are rich enough not to care at all about spending your money for a business or first class flight for a vacation trip!).

I will say it again, they kick us in the face.

If I had any say at my company, which so far books only business class tickets for us, even though most of the travel is intra-German/intra-European, I would urge them to just book discount carriers instead, which offer quite flexible economy (often one-way tickets without penalty). There is no real difference in service quality. Now, my main incentive for earning miles (to be able to use them for upgrades on reasonably priced economy tickets) is simply gone, so why even bother.

LH is treating the economy flyers like sh!t, and they are doing it quite openly. But even business travelers (on company travel) are (discounted) economy travelers on leisure travel, and they will NOT appreciate being treated like that.

Kiwi Flyer

Mar 21, 04, 11:14 am

Originally posted by deneru:
The only website that offers the option to choose between cheap fare and almost no miles and 'normal' fares and miles it's SQ.


Not true. Since 2002 NZ has no mileage fares domestically, rolled out Trans-Tasman (ie to Australia) in mid 2003 and South Pacific effective May 2004.

The cheapest fare category isnt mileage earning but is easily identified when booking by the name (Smart Saver) and also clearly stated in the terms and conditions. The discount economy category earning reduced mileage is also easily identified (Flexi Saver) and full economy (Fully Flexi).