MilesBuzz! - Sell give award ethics?

Suppose you have a family member (cousin) who has no mileage and does not travel often. Cousin needs to go to your child's wedding in hawaii. Ticket costs $1000. Cousin is unsure if they can or want to pay that much.
You would like cousin there but don't feel its your duty to provide all guests wtih airfare.

You have plenty of miles. There is availability for 35K miles. They obviously have value to you, but at 1.25 cents you are fine giving them away to family. You look at it as an unprofitable transaction and a favor to your cousin, but not a big loss. Cousin gets to go for $437.50 and is thrilled.

Is this immoral? If so what is the moral thing to do? Will the airline consider this to be selling awards.

Suppose you have a family member (cousin) who has no mileage and does not travel often. Cousin needs to go to your child's wedding in hawaii. Ticket costs $1000. Cousin is unsure if they can or want to pay that much.
You would like cousin there but don't feel its your duty to provide all guests wtih airfare.

You have plenty of miles. There is availability for 35K miles. They obviously have value to you, but at 1.25 cents you are fine giving them away to family. You look at it as an unprofitable transaction and a favor to your cousin, but not a big loss. Cousin gets to go for $437.50 and is thrilled.

Is this immoral? If so what is the moral thing to do? Will the airline consider this to be selling awards.

depends upon the cousin
for some i'd give it up easily, for free
others they'd need to give me 2 cents a mile or higher

Is this immoral? If so what is the moral thing to do? Will the airline consider this to be selling awards.

My opinions...

(1) No.
(2) Do exactly what you're proposing. It's what I'd do for a cousin. (Actually, I'd probably give him the ticket and let him pay me back in beers, steaks, greens fees, or whatever.)
(3) Yes. Make sure 'cuz doesn't say "My cousin sold me this ticket." Airlines will consider it selling. Forget about morality: the airlines don't like this.

Well the morality of it would more have to do with selling something you're not supposed to sell. That said, morality is for you to decide. I don't think it would be being as ... if you sold the ticket for 1/3 to 1/5 of what the person would pay. Just do it in cash. Should cousin protest, just note that you were saving these for something special and now you'll have to pay for the ticket. I doubt s/he will complain.

It will never come back to you then no matter what he says to the airline. It's your cousin after all. Were you selling it to a stranger, you'd be putting your account into jeapardy if something went wrong.

I would recommend against proposing this.

If your family thinks like most non-FT people (and a lot of FT people) they'll think of your miles as somehow "free". Accordingly, they'll believe you're being incredibly cheap/stingy/tacky by suggesting that your relative should pay you for something you got for "nothing".

Note that you're already received one reply from someone who wouldn't think it's appropriate to expect his friend/relative to reimburse him in cash for using his miles.

According to frequent flyer program rules, you are not allowed to sell or barter awards. Period. That's the legality. With that said, a one-off family transaction is probably not immoral. If both parties are happy with the arrangement, then go for it.

I have a couple of cousins that I would give them the ticket; a couple I wouldn't. I use my miles to get my immediate family around the country. It's a lost opportunity for me to give miles away.

Your conscience may vary.

I'm running into this challenge with a friend. I booked a flight on miles to Africa and am just a few K short of a second award ticket (which I could reach by buying miles). A friend of mine is planning to travel with me, and if she buys a ticket it'll easily be more than $1500. On one hand, I'd like to be able to help lessen her expenses and give her miles in exchange for her picking up some other expenses like a few hotels on the trip, even though there's no way those expenses would total even close to $1500.

And as RLG touched on above, the other problem that I think she thinks my miles are free. It's taken me two years to get to almost 150K since I don't travel for business, so I can't afford to gift miles to friends without feeling like I'm giving up a future mileage-funded trip for myself. I feel that if I asked her for anything in return she'll think I'm just being cheap since I never "paid" for the miles in the first place.

I suppose the easiest route is to simply not offer the miles, but I feel mildly guilty not at least offering since I have the ability to help.

I don't think this is immoral. I look at it as OP doing his cousin a favor, and in return his cousin gives him service fee. Although, airline wouldn't like that.
I'd probably do what OP is suggesting. It's fpr the cousin so you're not exactly profiting from the miles. And it's a wedding, so it's a one time thing.

That's a good point about the "free" miles. On one hand, all miles have a value and all miles had a cost to acquire, as the overall cost of operating the marketing department of an airline is baked into the cost of tickets. If you buy a round-trip ticket to Tulsa for $200, you have no choice but to buy the FF miles that come with it. Even if you don't provide an FF number, you still paid for the miles.

But even beyond that, every one of my accounts contains some miles that actually had an opportunity cost. I didn't have a choice whether or not to buy UA miles on my last trip to Tulsa, but I did have a choice when I bought a bundle of them along with some flowers a couple months ago. And I know what the "street price" for a dozen roses is, so I know exactly what I paid extra to voluntarily buy those UA miles.

So with my non-FF friends, I don't really overplay the "miles aren't free" card - because most of 'em really do show up in my account with no opportunity cost - but I still keep it in mind when I'm considering whether or not to give someone an award.

because most of 'em really do show up in my account with no opportunity cost - but I still keep it in mind when I'm considering whether or not to give someone an award.

Could you explain how that happens? How do you get most of your miles with no opportunity cost?


Thx

Ken in Phx

Could you explain how that happens? How do you get most of your miles with no opportunity cost?


Purchasing normal tickets on US-based carriers. The vast majority (all?) of my routes have no option to purchase a non-mileage-earning ticket at a slightly-lower cost. But I will admit that I like it this way: this structure benefits us, the people who pay attention. :)

I don't count Priceline: that's a different product altogether for flights.

Is this immoral? If so what is the moral thing to do? Will the airline consider this to be selling awards.

Will the airline consider this to be selling awards? Definitely. This deprives them of the opportunity to sell this ticket for $1000. They don't care that this is your cousin.

Is it immoral? Well, the airline awarded you the miles with the understanding that you would not sell them, and you knew that when you accepted them. This is mitigated somewhat by the possibility that the cousin might not be able to attend the wedding otherwise. If the cousin had definitely decided that they couldn't afford the ticket, this reasoning could be more persuasive. Overall, I would consider it immoral (but a very small immoral act), but I wouldn't quibble with someone who felt otherwise.

What is the moral thing to do? Give the cousin the award ticket, and suggest to the cousin that an appropriate way to show their gratitude would be to give a very generous gift to the bride and groom (without suggesting an amount). If the cousin is a good egg, it would probably occur to them that they could enclose a note with the gift saying that you generously gave them a free ticket, and that they are happy to be able to follow your generous example.

Will the airline consider this to be selling awards? Definitely. This deprives them of the opportunity to sell this ticket for $1000.

The interesting thing is that gifting the award has the same effect... Not that it really matters much to this discussion, it's just a curiosity. They're perfectly happy if you give the awards away, but bristle if you get anything back.

It's a very unusual position to take - I can't think of any other product I buy where the manufacturer or retailer cares like this. Even music and software - other stuff that has a lot of end-user restrictions - you are allowed to buy, sell, trade to your heart's content (think used record stores), or a licensing agreement prohibits you from doing any of it.

Anyway, I'm not complaining with the status quo...if the airlines were forced to choose, they'd take a hardline approach and restrict awards to the member and companions on the same itin. I like being able to give awards to family members.

Give the cousin the award ticket, and suggest to the cousin that an appropriate way to show their gratitude would be to give a very generous gift to the bride and groom (without suggesting an amount). If the cousin is a good egg, it would probably occur to them that they could enclose a note with the gift saying that you generously gave them a free ticket, and that they are happy to be able to follow your generous example.

Of course, if the cousin can't go because of the ticket cost, then a "free" ticket won't necessarily give them more money for a gift.

When dealing with family for your childs wedding, I say either give them the ticket out of the goodness of your heart, or keep you mouth (and wallet) shut.

Of course, if the cousin can't go because of the ticket cost, then a "free" ticket won't necessarily give them more money for a gift.

When dealing with family for your childs wedding, I say either give them the ticket out of the goodness of your heart, or keep you mouth (and wallet) shut.

Agreed.

I don't know where you're seeing availability, but can't he quickly earn the 35k through various bonuses, credit card offers and otherwise? If it's not enough time, can't you just trade tickets (he uses your miles now -- you use his later)?

That's an idea. While most of the miles can be got via a CC, maybe also make the deal contigent on their doing at least one Milage Run (with your assistance in setting up). That should help foster better understanding and respect for the true cost of the miles in terms of time, and maybe get a new member to our "hobby".

The comment about people not giving proper appreciation for the cost in time and effort (including bumming around these forums, though it may not feel like a "cost" ;) ) is so true. I have a best buddy who lives remotely now, and when he learned about my milage earning the first thing he asked was if he could "borrow" some of my miles. I offered to show him how to earn his own, and the matter was dropped.

Steve

Could you explain how that happens? How do you get most of your miles with no opportunity cost?


Thx

Ken in Phx

dude I see YOU are thinking he knwos of some hot new gift card deal or something. hahahaha

ANYWAY, my take on this is that you can give an award to anyone. It's nobody's business if they decided to be so nice to you that they paid for your next mortgage statement or gave you a free hamburger for it. My mom can ask me to use my miles, and I can ask my brother, and my wife and I have been known to just go into one another's accounts and book flights. Yeah, when you book it, dont like TELL the airline, and by no means should you try to make a business out of this (like ebay) but hey, if you can get a better deal by helping someone out, that's ok.

I have a friend with Uber UA miles and I ran out. I know a trip to Hawaii is 35k. I may just ask him to book me some tickets and if the tickets would have cost us $600 Rt each, then maybe he's cool if I throw him like $400-450 per. He may not care, cuz I could also just buy him his 2008 downhill ski pass instead, or pay one of the condo fees. whatever.

again, I do not need to TELL the airline I paid him for it. We wouldnt want them to one day cancel the ability to let someone else use your points!

I know hotels have issues with that. SPG will bust you if you try to book someone a room and then you don't go but they do by using your points. Apparently you can only do that if you are platinum.

Also, until the airlines get with it on things like fixing late mileage postings, being more user friendly with CS, dealing with some of the pre and post flight hassles involving luggage, connections, seating, food on planes, lounges, services, and a bunch of other things, I plan to take advantage of every loophole and trick I can find to get by. We need to fly and they know it. They often rake us over the coals because of this truth and we can do nothing about it except say, "I'll never fly that airline again!" Well, there are a limited amount of airlines that go where you need to fly. Until some of the things I'm talking about are fixed, there could be a day when everyone has complained about every airline but still goes on them! They know this too. Most businesses address such concerns because people can go elsewhere. Airlines have us. It's time to have THEM. For this reason alone, go sell your miles! :D Get a win for our team.

Call me bitter? (or just experienced) Well, there's three sides to every story -- the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

:)MM

Of course it is immoral. You know the rules and agreed to them by enrolling in the program and this is clearly in violation of your agreement. It's either immoral or you are a liar - take your choice.

Of course it is immoral. You know the rules and agreed to them by enrolling in the program and this is clearly in violation of your agreement. It's either immoral or you are a liar - take your choice.

sure but who cares and whose going to tell on me if I do it? :D

I mean do I have to "live with myself" for knowingly being a liar and an immoral person for breaking a silly rule at an AIRLINE?

Like HELLO. NOPE! I would be proud to get the chance to do so, in keeping with the claims in my previous post! :D

Would I rather it was such that no one felt as though they HAD to break rules in order to get by? Sure, but who--me or the big airlines--is going to foster a positive change first? I think we all know the answer to that.

And oh, do I play this way elsewhere in my life? Well, no I do not but hey, you don't believe me now cuz you may now think if I do it here I do it everywhere. That brings me back to my first line of this post. :D

Of course it is immoral. You know the rules and agreed to them by enrolling in the program and this is clearly in violation of your agreement. It's either immoral or you are a liar - take your choice.

I'll play devil's advocate: for U.S. carriers, I have no choice about whether to purchase the miles that come with my airline ticket - they're bundled in there whether I like it or not. It's a classic Hobson's Choice: either provide an FF number or don't.

Therefore, the disobedience of an oppressive, unjust, and unreasonable rule is not immoral.

(Like I've posted before, I don't actually want anything to change - the status quo works greatly to the advantage of people who are paying close attention to how the programs work. I just enjoy being a pain in the arse. :))