MilesBuzz! - Buy Full Flex ticket, cancel it, get points on CC?

Hi! I thought about if i bought a very expensive C class Full Flex ticket with refund and i buy it with my CC which i can earn miles on every Euro spent, and then cancel it and get refund, would i get the miles?

Thanks.

No.

Its a wash.

The airline would credit back the refund to the credit card you used originally.... so, you would get "negative" miles or points for the refund... totally offsetting the original miles.

William

OK thanks for the quick replies!

this DID work once when george Costanza tried it. Then again, that was the 1990s and they ended up on the flight in that episode :D

If you bought the ticket for a date far away, used the miles you earned and then return the ticket, you would be okay. You would have anegative FF balance but that isn't a big deal, is it???

If you bought the ticket for a date far away, used the miles you earned and then return the ticket, you would be okay. You would have anegative FF balance but that isn't a big deal, is it???

The refund is back to credit card, meaning you will have that much less balance on next CC statement. SO, less miles for next statement.

Sounds like the old "expense account" scam. One would buy an expensive refundable coach ticket, run it on the credit card, turn it into the Company, and then cancel it and buy a cheapie to pocket the difference

When if the CC makes double miles on flight purchases? So when the refunds go back to the CC, will double miles be deducted from that billing cycle then?

When did this forum turn into S.C.A.M. instead of S.P.A.M. ? :p Oh, well, I guess it's MilesBuzz, not S.P.A.M., but still, the point remains the same.

Sounds like the old "expense account" scam. One would buy an expensive refundable coach ticket, run it on the credit card, turn it into the Company, and then cancel it and buy a cheapie to pocket the difference

Which got quite a few people (high profile even) in trouble for tax evasion a few years back. :)

When if the CC makes double miles on flight purchases? So when the refunds go back to the CC, will double miles be deducted from that billing cycle then?

Wait until the double miles period ends to do the refund.

Which got quite a few people (high profile even) in trouble for tax evasion a few years back. :)so they would have been ok if they declared it on their 1040 right?

this DID work once when george Costanza tried it. Then again, that was the 1990s and they ended up on the flight in that episode :D

It didn't work. Kramer messed up and actually bought nonrefundable tickets with George's credit card because they were cheaper. :D

so they would have been ok if they declared it on their 1040 right?

I don't know about "ok", but they wouldn't have been in tax trouble.

(Remember what they finally got Al Capone on. IRS takes the position that whether gains are legal or ill-gotten makes no difference for purposes of tax liability.)

it won't work.. and its fraud.. since you get points for "spending" money.. and once you get a refund, you haven't really "spent" the money for which you got rewarded.

its like keeping the gifts after the wedding is cancelled.. its a don't-do!

it won't work.. and its fraud.. since you get points for "spending" money.. and once you get a refund, you haven't really "spent" the money for which you got rewarded.

its like keeping the gifts after the wedding is cancelled.. its a don't-do!

In an ideal world, heres how I think the process should work.

The bank should have to fax a request in to you to request the miles back. Occasionally (75% of the time) some mishap will happen and they will have to refax the request. Once you do receive the fax, they will be missing some required documentation in order for you to process the mileage return to the bank. You won't actually tell them of this until they call in to complain about missing miles. Then when they do call in, you will tell them of the missing documentation and tell them they need to fax everything in again because your fax department is a separate department and you have no way to communicate with them right now. And only after you have received the proper documentation from them, will you be able to process the miles back to the bank - after 6-8 weeks of course :D

...And only after you have received the proper documentation from them, will you be able to process the miles back to the bank - after 6-8 weeks of course :D


yes yes and if it is United, let's give them back after say 12+ weeks, shall we? And oh, that's once they call me at my India office and wait on hold a while.

:DMM

yes yes and if it is United, let's give them back after say 12+ weeks, shall we? And oh, that's once they call me at my India office and wait on hold a while.

:DMM

^ :D :D

well what about if you:

1- Endorse the ticket over to another carrier.

2-buy a more expensive tix, also full flex with a different credit card.

3- refund that tix.

4- the Second credit card would 'refund' the excess payment to its 'original' form of payment, i.e. the second credit card.

5-cut a paper check to you.

6-deposit the check and pay of the original issuer.

Do the Gurus see any reason why this would not work???

I am completely unfamiliar with the process of endorsing over tickets.

In reality, how does endorsing a ticket work? how does one do this?

I don't think an airline would endorse a ticket to another carrier except in irregular operations... it's not something they do "just because." Moreover, I really don't understand your multi-step plan with different cards, since each refunded ticket would go right back onto its original card... original charge minus refund credit equals zero.

But even if this procedure did work, what you are proposing is STILL just as unethical as the first case. When you pay for something on a CC and get refunded in cash, you are effectively circumventing the cash advance rules and are therefore earning rewards against the T&Cs of your card, which you accepted when you signed up for the card. When this happens "by accident" on a small purchase (because the merchant, for whatever reason, gives you cash rather than a card refund) then that's one thing, but setting out to do this intentionally, especially on a large-dollar purchase, is tantamount to fraud. (And this doesn't include the fact that the merchant, the airline in this case, is paying a 2-3% fee to the credit card company for processing your ticket, which they would likely not have sold you if they knew your intent was solely to refund the ticket and earn rewards illicitly.)

well what about if you:

1- Endorse the ticket over to another carrier.

2-buy a more expensive tix, also full flex with a different credit card.

3- refund that tix.

4- the Second credit card would 'refund' the excess payment to its 'original' form of payment, i.e. the second credit card.

5-cut a paper check to you.

6-deposit the check and pay of the original issuer.

Do the Gurus see any reason why this would not work???

I am completely unfamiliar with the process of endorsing over tickets.

In reality, how does endorsing a ticket work? how does one do this?

I dont see why it wouldnt work because the paper trail may not catch up with you until you already have that check, but in my experience, endorsed tickets are a pain in the ars. I got one once where US said it would let me fly on UA but I had to run back and forth between airline terminals about to miss a connection and in the end, I ended up paying for a whole new ticket. All of this because of a red stamp neither airline would give on my ticket. One or the other carrier would have to accept that they must pay for it. They do not want to do this. If you are in a bind, some airlines endorse tickets, but it's the same thing. And so you cant like knowingly go get one done easily. Not that I know of at least. (Nor do I want to find out how to)


I don't think an airline would endorse a ticket to another carrier except in irregular operations... it's not something they do "just because." Moreover, I really don't understand your multi-step plan with different cards, since each refunded ticket would go right back onto its original card... original charge minus refund credit equals zero.

But even if this procedure did work, what you are proposing is STILL just as unethical as the first case. When you pay for something on a CC and get refunded in cash, you are effectively circumventing the cash advance rules and are therefore earning rewards against the T&Cs of your card, which you accepted when you signed up for the card. When this happens "by accident" on a small purchase (because the merchant, for whatever reason, gives you cash rather than a card refund) then that's one thing, but setting out to do this intentionally, especially on a large-dollar purchase, is tantamount to fraud. (And this doesn't include the fact that the merchant, the airline in this case, is paying a 2-3% fee to the credit card company for processing your ticket, which they would likely not have sold you if they knew your intent was solely to refund the ticket and earn rewards illicitly.)

it may be considered fraud or unethical by some, but this thread does not ask if that matters. It is more about CAN YOU do it? Not should you do it. Personally, if they are all going to hit me with obtuse fees for every little legitimate thing I try to do in business with them, I will try every trick in the book if I can get away with it and look clean, eh? Or, I will roll my eyes THIS time but start sending letters to try and change policy or something and get a ton of people on my side to initiate some bigger changes in industry. I'd have better luck with the first method though. Hey, sorry, I'm just taking after my government's own message: Strike first, try to look like you are sorting it out later. :D

Personally, if they are all going to hit me with obtuse fees for every little legitimate thing I try to do in business with them, I will try every trick in the book if I can get away with it and look clean, eh?I don't know what things you're trying to do that cause fees, but I've been using CCs pretty much exclusively (i.e. I try never to use cash) for the last 11 years or so, and I've never been hit with a single fee except when I forget to pay my bill on time, and then I just call and they refund the fee and finance charge without question.

The only fee I've ever had complaints with is the foreign transaction fee - that one is rather silly. But it just got me to change the CCs I use for travel, rather than anything else.

Anyway, whatever, you're right that this discussion is OT. I don't see how the OP's method would work, or the second method proposed with the paper check because that involved buying TWO tickets. The only way I see this working is buying the ticket on a rewards card, refunding it to a non-rewards card, getting the credit back from that non-rewards card and using it to pay the rewards card. But, getting the airline to refund your ticket to a different card than the one used for payment is going to be near impossible.

true true, regarding CC fees. In general--especially if you are a good customer with decent history and credit, the CCs these days will refund most everything if you present a decent valid case about it. I guess I was focussing more on the bad fees of the airlines, and so in my mind, sometimes I feel as though I wish I could find a way to get them back for all the stupid fees we have to pay for things like the phone in fee for award tickets (even when their own sites could not handle a similar booking so we HAD to call) or the redeposit of unused miles fee, etc. All those make people mad and want to lash out.

As for the refund ticket thing, I have actually heard of and looked into methods of things such as having a debit card and bank account with say, CITI and also a CC with Citi. You buy something on the CC but somehow get them to return the money to your debit account. Same bank, same world. Could be potentially done but I dunno how yet.

:D

A strategy that does work (however possibly not to US customers) is to deposit into an online casino with your CC and withdraw to Neteller or via bank draft.
Of course this requires a certain knowledge of and trust in the casino industry - but it can be done. ;)

A strategy that does work (however possibly not to US customers) is to deposit into an online casino with your CC and withdraw to Neteller or via bank draft.
Of course this requires a certain knowledge of and trust in the casino industry - but it can be done. ;)

Which casinos? I thought they always want you to cash out using the method in which you paid in?

I thought a while back the casino thing DID work for people in FT and it was US based or online or something. I would personally have a bit of trouble trusting this but then again, Im not so into that sort of thing (despite the fact I used to work as a blackjack dealer in the business in the early 1990s)

Anyway, I know this may shift a bit from the topic a bit but there have been several smaller but consistent ways to spend money on a CC and have it go back to you but not onto that CC. One such that I found was if you buy things at Starbucks. You could return the item and if you dont have the same CC with you, they may tell you that since they have to put it on SOME credit card, to just give them any one you have in your wallet. You could then give them a debit MC or Visa and later go take the money out of your own checking account. I have done this for $100 without that having been my original intent. I have since considered buying and returning several starbucks gift certs.

Another small small way is when you pay a tip to say your hair stylist. Some places let you charge an amount over your bill for the haircut and then take cash out to give to the stylist. I know maybe this is only say $5 or something, but I have done this countless times and it is often easier on both their books and my having to carry both cash and credit with me everywhere. (these days I maybe have one $10 bill on me and never use it because everything is charged up!)

These can add up. I know there are many more. I have done others too. Not all of it is BAD activity or a matter of poor ethics, but some people may think so. So be it. My point is that there are ways. I suppose if someone were to pay for a full fair ticket and then cancel their credit card, the airline would send that card the money but that card company would mail them a check. This too is something I have seen on a smaller scale and without any intent to do it. A company owed me a refund for something but I had cancelled my CC. By the time I got the money, it had been thru several places on its way to me, but it came in the form of a check that I cashed. AND, when I overpaid my Citi MC a year ago and then didnt use it for 3 more months, they sent me a check for the overage!

it goes on and on...

:)MM

At some hotels, you can ask for a "cash advance" and they would add it to your room bill.

When checking out, the whole charge would be processed as a "purchase" rather than a "cash advance" when paying by credit card.

and to be certain no "Cash advances" get onto your credit card (although I know the hotel ones are different things, just using the same wording) I think only Citi lets you set your A amount to ZERO. This is advised by the way.

some people who have tried this scam ended up with one segment that was non-refundable on the ticket and came crying back to flyertalk that they couldn't get a refund. It's not worth the risk, even if you can ignore the ethics.

Which casinos? I thought they always want you to cash out using the method in which you paid in?

That is correct and at the same time the very difficult part. ;)
They usually send back the originally deposited to where it came from, only the above balance may be cashed out in a method picked by you.

One casino I did find was wildjack.de (also exists with a .com domain, I believe). Unfortunately when I tried it with a small amount of 100 EUR I did not see the fee attached to a wire transfer below 1000 EUR, thus my little experiment cost me 25 EUR. ;)
Right now they somehow don't accept my CC anymore - don't know if that is on part of the casino or on part of my bank, I may try to figure that when I get home (don't really wanna mess with casinos while in the US).

Let's assume your statement prints on the first of every month. If U buy a $5000 air ticket in March, the CC will send your miles/points over on April 1. If U then refund it in April & also spend $5000 on your card in April, you will get 0 miles on May 1. If U spend <$5K, I assume U would get negative miles on May 1. If that withdrawal of miles puts your FF acct. below zero, U may be in trouble. It depends on whether the airline or hotel co. trusts U to earn to bring your balance up to zero.

Moral: I would consider doing it as a way of borrowing/ being advanced miles which I need earlier than I would really earn 'em, but not as a way of scamming for miles permanently.

Which casinos? I thought they always want you to cash out using the method in which you paid in?Several years ago, you used to be able to get cash advances from cruise ship casinos, and they would charge it to your room like anything else you'd buy on board - at the end, you just leave your whole bill on your credit card (I started a thread on this called "Miles on Royal Caribbean,", but I think it's too old to pull up). I think most cruise lines have closed this loophole since then.