Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Reply from LH to our group letter




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lewinr
Jul 24, 02, 10:39 am
Today I received a reply from LH to our letter signed by 20 senators. I will post the original letter (for reference) and then the reply. Then we can discuss our response (if any).

Our original letter:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Oliver Wagner
Vice President Miles & More
Deutsche Lufthansa AG

CC: Mr Juergen Weber
Wolfgang Mayrhuber


July 12th 2002

Dear Mr Wagner

This letter represents the efforts of a group of your best customers to discuss with you the impact of changes you are implementing to Miles & More.

Most of us are Senators, having spent significant time and money on the Lufthansa product for many years. Many of us are also elite-level in the programs of other airlines and alliances. As such, we have a good perspective to evaluate the changes to M&M in terms of the competitive positioning of Lufthansa.

We understand the in the current market position it is important for Lufthansa to rationalize its costs and perhaps even cut services. On the other hand, we are sure Lufthansa understands that it is a competitive environment and passengers have more choice than ever.

So we hope to help Lufthansa understand how best to change the program while not affecting too much the benefits that are most important to us and ensure our loyalty.

Please find below our comments:

1. Notice and Dialogue

We feel that there has been a lack of dialogue on the issue of changes (include some changes to the program made without any notice) which may damage Lufthansa’s relationship with its best clients. As many people have said, communications is the key to a good relationship, and in this case it is no different. We recommend:

- No changes should be made without notice (such as the changes in the guaranteed bookings for Senators)
- Do not tell us how a change with an obviously negative impact is designed to “serve us better”. We are savvy consumers of your services and such patronizing is insulting. Instead, tell us plainly that the benefit is being cut, and what other benefits are (hopefully) being introduced to offset the cut.

2. Guaranteed Bookings for Senators

As we understand, this benefit was changed without notice so that now the booking only guarantees seat at full fare. Since full-fare Y and C class tickets are almost always available, this renders the booking guarantee virtually useless.

We feel that this is a significant cut which affects many Senators. This benefit is important to us because we can be sure that we get a seat at a reasonable price. With the condition of the travel budgets of companies and individuals today, many Senators are forced to fly on discount fares. By guaranteeing us access to those fares, you guaranteed that we would fly with you. But when we lose our access to those fares, we will likely be forced to fly on another carrier with a lower price. You should not see the guarantee as having caused lost revenue to Lufthansa. In fact, Lufthansa gained revenue from it.

We recommend you to re-instate this benefit, or at least expand the classes it applies to beyond Y and C. If you cannot do that, we would like to ask you to replace this benefit with the ability to waitlist for any fare/class of tickets, especially ones with a “closed waitlist”. Doing this would ensure that if a seat opens on a lower fare (usually with a “closed waitlist”), that seat will go to your best customer.

3. Changes in Requalification

As we understand, the requalification rules are being changed to base requalification on a calendar year. Unfortunately, we have received very little information (see point #1) so it is difficult for us to understand the ramifications. Nevertheless, it is clear that requalification will be more difficult under these terms. We hope that there will be some new benefits added to the program which will compensate for this added difficulty.

Again, with the state of many business and personal travel budgets, travelers will be forced to choose which status they will be able to maintain. By making requalification more difficult and cutting benefits at the same time, Lufthansa might find that the number of its highest tier members is reduced more than it expects.

We hope that this letter is helpful in your search for ways to improve the program. As your most loyal customers, it is in our interest that Lufthansa continues to succeed.

Thank you
Signed,
.....
</font>

and the reply:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Dear Sirs:

I would like to thank you for your letter dated July 12, 2002. I very much appreciate your loyalty towards Lufthansa and your initiative to discuss the recent program changes within Miles & More. I would like to seize this opportunity to address each of your thoughts and suggestions, giving you the background on each issue:

ad 1. Notice and Dialogue

It is our intention to clearly communicate program changes to our customers in due time. In late June, we did send out the information on the upcoming changes. Regarding the changes in requalification, we gave our customers a six months notice, regarding the increase of mileage required for day trips, we gave a three months notice, and regarding the booking guarantee, we gave over a months notice. We thought that this would be sufficient. Having now learned that it was not, we apologize for the inconvenience that this may have caused to you and we will certainly take this into account for future changes.

Concerning the manner in which we communicated this information to you, I agree that regarding the changes in requalification, we could have been a bit more precise. The reason why we kept it a bit more general was the complexity of the issue. However, our communication concerning the booking guarantee and the new "prices" for day trips was clear. Please keep in mind that we do not only communicate to Senators but also to Frequent Travellers who might not be so familiar with the Senator benefits as you are.

ad 2. Guaranteed Bookings for Senators

When we implemented the booking guarantee a couple of years ago, the original idea was to be able to offer a seat to our top customers even if the aircraft was fully booked. Unfortunately, the benefit was very often used in cases when the aircraft still showed availability in the lower booking classes, and so we went back to the old idea of guaranteeing a seat only when the aircraft or the requested class of service is sold out. This was and still is a benefit which you do not find with many other airlines. In fact, none of our major competitors provide such a degree flexibility to its top customers. I am sure you will agree that from an economical point of view it does not make sense to allow even our top customers to buy a ticket for 143 ˆ on a Monday morning from Hamburg to Frankfurt, when the demand for the flight is far above our offer. Our objective was and still is to provide the degree of flexibility to our top customers that they need, but we need to ask for a reasonable price for it.

ad 3. Changes in Requalification

Within the Star Alliance, we are trying to hamonize our programme structures and policies whereever possible and feasible. Since most of our Star Alliance partners use the calendar year as a basis for requalification, we have decided to move away from our current model which calculates requalification on any given 12-month period of your two year status (e.g. your status runs from March 2002 until February 2004, our current model checked every twelve-month-period (03/02 until 02/03, 04/02 until 03/03,...,03/03 until 02/04) to see if the customer reached the threshold of 150,000 status miles.) The new model will only check calendar years. I would appreciate if you considered that in the last couple of years, we have implemented some major changes that have made status qualification and requalification much easier for our customers - e.g. we introduced the executive bonus and we accept the miles collected on our Star Alliance partners as qualifying miles.

I truly hope that I was able to give you some valuable insights into our way of thinking, and I would very much appreciate if you remained loyal towards Lufthansa, even though you might be a bit disappointed right now. Please be assured that we here at Lufthansa and at Miles & More will be introducing new services within the next twelve months that will prove to you that our top customers are very much the focus of our daily work.


Sincerely yours,

Oliver Wagner
Vice President Miles & More
Deutsche Lufthansa AG
</font>

[This message has been edited by lewinr (edited 07-24-2002).]


zvezda
Jul 24, 02, 10:58 am
This SEN finds LH's response entirely satisfactory.

lewinr
Jul 24, 02, 12:31 pm
Basically, I feel the response was satisfactory too, except for one area regarding the booking guarantee.

We had made a concrete suggestion, and he never really answered that.

Furthermore, he says that no other airline offers this. I know that KLM does (they confirmed to me that as a royalwing I am guaranteed a seat at full-fare). KLM also offers the access to closed waitlists that LH does not offer (I used that on KLM this week, by the way).

While I was not expecting him to say "good idea! we'll implement it immediately!" it would have been nice for some feedback for or against consideration of the idea.

So, the only thing I would consider doing is just letting him know which other airlines offer the same type of booking guarantee, so he has an correct understanding of the competitive situation. (Do any of you know of any airlines other than KLM that offer this booking guarantee?)

He also mentions how they communicated their changes to the program, and it seems like reasonable notice was given. Why then did it seem like many of us knew about these changes very late? Perhaps it had something to do with how the changes were communicated. Perhaps we could suggest a better way to communicate changes so that the communication (even when given with enough notice) is more effective in reaching us.

Ron


Berki
Jul 24, 02, 12:34 pm
Ron

did you got the response by e-mail or snailmail ?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my letter ...

msn
Jul 24, 02, 1:54 pm
Odd that KLM is not "one of their major competitors"! I guess there will be a number of newly minted Royal Wings who will now "fly both ways" in the future.

lewinr
Jul 24, 02, 3:19 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Berki:
Ron

did you got the response by e-mail or snailmail ?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my letter ...</font>

e-mail.

lewinr
Jul 24, 02, 3:21 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by msn:
Odd that KLM is not "one of their major competitors"! I guess there will be a number of newly minted Royal Wings who will now "fly both ways" in the future.</font>


Three possibilities:
1) I am wrong about the guarantee on KLM. (I was told about it by a KLM agent, but had never heard about that before. It would not be the first time I was misinformed by a KLM agent).

2) Mr Wagner simply doesnt know that KLM also offers it (which is why, if it is true, we should tell him).

3) He really doesn't consider KLM compeition.

lacanau
Jul 24, 02, 10:12 pm
SQ has a booking guarantee, too:

"If your reservation for a seat in First or Raffles Class cannot be confirmed immediately, you are guaranteed a seat in Economy Class on the same flight if you so desire. You will of course also be given preference on the waiting list for First and Raffles class seats."

I think this also applies to travel in Y class, i.e. if your booking is for Y from the beginning. So far they have granted this benefit to all fare codes, even for discounted tickets. And so far I never had a problem with this.

sfosenkid
Jul 25, 02, 1:02 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lewinr:
I truly hope that I was able to give you some valuable insights into our way of thinking, and I would very much appreciate if you remained loyal towards Lufthansa, even though you might be a bit disappointed right now. Please be assured that we here at Lufthansa and at Miles & More will be introducing new services within the next twelve months that will prove to you that our top customers are very much the focus of our daily work.

[/B]</font>

Hmm... what kind of new services could that be... maybe a third tier?

SFO SEN kid

Uli
Jul 25, 02, 1:39 am
I find LHs answer very acceptable.

Threy
Jul 25, 02, 2:46 am
I believe that probadly 75% of all airlines offer booking guarantees for their elite customers, that is one of the most valuable perks of any programm.

One of the main differences was, that LH guaranteed a seat in any booking class, while the competition only guaranteed a seat form full fare eco upwards.....

One important perk of the Senator memebership may be gone, but it is still comparable to the competition....

rcs85551
Jul 25, 02, 6:15 am
RoyalWings @ KLM indeed get guaranteed reservations (at the full fare in a cabin at KLM's dicretion.)

SkyTeam Elite Plus member get guaranteed Y reservations on any SkyTeam airline (which includes AF, AZ and OK).

I'd say that with AF and KL, there are other major competitors out there offering the booking guarantee.

However, I understand LH's point in limiting the guarantee....

TRESY
Jul 25, 02, 7:12 am
I think the reply is very carefully worded - almost as if LH had expected getting letters from Senators and had already formulated the reply. It is certainly difficult to argue with what he says. However, I thought the idea of being in competition was to bring forward desirable DIFFERENCES to competitors, and not to ALIGN yourself.

On a different note, LH obviously changed my booking guarantee at lowest fare 18 months ago when they ONLY offered me Economy at FULL PUBLISHED FARE for a trip to South Africa!!

eMailman
Jul 25, 02, 7:25 am
It was nice to get the response.

As far as the booking guarentee for top level FF-

AA offers full fare Y booking up to 24 hours in advance. Still a better deal than LH now has.

BA has the same conditions that LH now has for C class.

Perhaps LH does not consider such trivial airlines to be competitors......

ralfkrippner
Jul 25, 02, 8:44 am
I think we should answer with the same list of people signed letter regarding to

- all examples of other airlines booking guarantees
- a well worded and precise suggestion for the 'open waitlists for SEN's' thing

And a question for the mentioned new perks coming the next 12 months?


The above answer surprises me pleasantly as it seems to be not a canned answer as some of the other published answers seemed to be. But if 20 of your highest elites write a letter to you this is the least to be done, isn't it? I would like to have heard something like 'thank you for your suggestions, we will discuss and probably use some part of it later'. As this is missing the cancellation of the booking guarantee looks pretty finally statued...

eMailman
Jul 25, 02, 9:58 am
I can well understand that it makes no business sense to sell a W fare on a flight that still has Y inventory available. Being able to plan far in advance to book a lower cost fare has value to both LH and the PAX.

The question becomes what to do about a fully booked flight, which customers should make it (toss off one of the W PAX for a SEN that paid Y seems like a good deal to LH). The previous rules should have been revenue neutral to keep the best customers from flying on airlanes that have real lounges was my point, anyway.

eMailman
Jul 25, 02, 10:00 am
It comes down to the design of the program.

When you have customers with limited options, the mile requirement for status is high and benefits are few.

Customers outside of Germany have many options, and LH has to be ahead of the other programs.

The business decision is how valuable are the "foreign" members, and how much difference between "foreign" and "domestic" members can the program carry.


[This message has been edited by eMailman (edited 07-26-2002).]

lewinr
Jul 26, 02, 8:22 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by eMailman:
I can well understand that it makes no business sense to sell a W fare on a flight that still has Y inventory available. Being able to plan far in advance to book a lower cost fare has value to both LH and the PAX.

The question becomes what to do about a fully booked flight, which customers should make it (toss off one of the W PAX for a SEN that paid Y seems like a good deal to LH). The previous rules should have been revenue neutral to keep the best customers from flying on airlanes that have real lounges was my point, anyway.</font>

I believe that the booking guarantee brought more revenue to LH than it cost them. Before I would be ready to pay full-Y on LH I will check all other airlines and only take the full-Y fare if nothing else is available. In the past, I wouldnt need to bother. Unless the flight is full, I think LH is better selling that seat to its good customer at W fare rather than let it go empty.

I also a think a "guarantee" for a seat at full-fare is moot anyways... there are almost always seats available at full fare.

hfly
Jul 26, 02, 3:57 pm
Just to chime in here....... BA, AA, DL, AF, AZ, KE, OK, AM, BD, KL, SQ and many other airlines offer that facility.

Unless they see their major competitors to be the likes of Iberia and Turkish Airlines, I do not understand what he was talking about?

Guy Betsy
Jul 29, 02, 12:54 am
I think LH is still skirting the question. We are not all going to be flying on full Y fares to even get the chance to use the booking guarantee. What we want is LH to guarantee the other lower classes ie H, B, M even... or even D class in Business Class. But obviously those do not classify as full fare.

Given the choice, I'd fly another airline over LH longhaul on a 747 in coach. Those seats are squishy!

peter42
Aug 15, 02, 1:36 am
I am not satisfied with this answer as they are not really considering our suggestion, but simply repeating their point of view.

ralfkrippner
Aug 19, 02, 4:09 am
And with such a letter signed by quite some of their elite pax (how often might such group letters occur?) they should at least try to convince us that they are thinking about our suggestions...

peter42
Aug 19, 02, 3:07 pm
So I think we should send them a reply to their reply. What do you think ?

lewinr
Aug 20, 02, 12:43 am
I too would like to send them a reply.
But it is not clear what we should say beyond:

1. we think all you are doing is re-iterating your position rather than answering our concerns and suggestions.

2. you're wrong about LH being the only airline with a booking guarantee.

Rudi
Aug 20, 02, 1:21 am
I am much more 'worried' about possible future 'adaptions' of miles&more 'specialities', like (that's what I really expect for the next 2-3 years http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif ):
* status validity only one year (plus jan/feb)
* upgrades only on selected fares (excluding 'W' fares again, 'W' fares only became upgradable starting oct-99)
* inner North American flights on 2-class UA in (paid business) first to be credited 'only' as business segments
* Senator lounges (in airports offering also LH business-/FTL-lounges) no longer accessible for 'other' Star-Gold.

eMailman
Aug 20, 02, 3:52 am
Agree with Rudi. Those changes would put me back on BA as SEN would have no value above BA Silver.

lewinr
Aug 20, 02, 4:57 am
I agree on all points except:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rudi:
* Senator lounges (in airports offering also LH business-/FTL-lounges) no longer accessible for 'other' Star-Gold.</font>

Is this really something that would be bad for true, loyal LH senators? I think we should avoid this point.

I also worry that by mentioning such specific worries, we'll give them dangerous ideas... but of course I know that they've thought of all these things already.

peter42
Aug 20, 02, 5:53 am
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rudi:
I am much more 'worried' about possible future 'adaptions' of miles&more 'specialities', like (that's what I really expect for the next 2-3 years http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif ):
* status validity only one year (plus jan/feb)
* upgrades only on selected fares (excluding 'W' fares again, 'W' fares only became upgradable starting oct-99)
* inner North American flights on 2-class UA in (paid business) first to be credited 'only' as business segments
* Senator lounges (in airports offering also LH business-/FTL-lounges) no longer accessible for 'other' Star-Gold.</font>


Just a small correction W was upgradeable and earned miles until sometimes in 98 (not 100% sure about the date), then it changed to no miles/upgrade and then in 10/99 to miles & upgrade again.

Lounge access for non SENs is (unfortunately) not the issue here.

The topics a new letter should raise is to make our position clear again and clearly ask for a response to our suggestions.

Mizu
Aug 20, 02, 12:34 pm
I agree with lewinr and Rudi. I don't think we have a lot of ammunition for a follow-up. OK, LH did not acknowledge the existing booking guarantees of other carriers, but they stated very explicitly why they limited the existing guarantee. We can vote as customers by taking our money elsewhere (unless our jobs pay for LH only), but I don't expect LH to change their policy due to our letter(s).

They have made their point clear that revenue considerations are more important than freebies for their elite pax. And as long as we complain, but continue to fly LH, their economic calculations are proven correct - we may be grumpy, but they still get our money.

So, either SEN offers enough benefits as it is to keep my loyalty, or the program has changed to the point where I will look for another carrier. But that is a decision everybody has to make on an individual basis.

bernie
Aug 20, 02, 12:51 pm
Very well said Mizu

peter42
Aug 20, 02, 3:24 pm
What seems strange to me is that they offer contradicting reasoning in their answers, on the one hand, they say they do not want a business person to fly for 143 Euro Monday morning (ignoring this fare is not valid before 10 o'clock for instance and has to be booked a week in advance and has a saturday night stay included), on the other hand they say that quiete a lot of the guanranteed tickets were booked in high booking classes anyhow, which again contradicts their arguments about loss of revenue and booking steerage.

newbe
Aug 20, 02, 4:19 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Mizu:
They have made their point clear that revenue considerations are more important than freebies for their elite pax. And as long as we complain, but continue to fly LH, their economic calculations are proven correct - we may be grumpy, but they still get our money.

So, either SEN offers enough benefits as it is to keep my loyalty, or the program has changed to the point where I will look for another carrier. But that is a decision everybody has to make on an individual basis.</font>

To me LH is doing a somewhat straightforward move. Take what you can from the one who pays the ticket ("employer") and give a few benefits to the traveler ("employee"). The booking guarantee is a benefit for the "employer". It's kind of straightforward for me that they reduce these benefits.

Telling from the answers LH gave, I think they assume that the M&M program is good enough to keep their travelers loyal. They have a lot of them (...didn't I hear that they have too many SENs somewhere?). Therefore no need to do more.

Personally I still have my doubts that I really need to stay SEN. The difference to FTL is quite low IMO.

I really liked to have the booking guarantee, although for some reason I was never able to take advantage of it. But it's a good feeling to have it - just in case, you know.

What other benefits do we have? The SEN-lounges aren't much better than the business lounges, so I don't consider this as an argument. The only real benefits are the 50K upgrade vouchers and the companion awards. (I used to think that a free seat in eco next to you is something of value. But this is obviously a rule for other people. I never got a blocked seat next to me, even if the plane was far from being full.)

Now, is all that enough reason to care for SEN (or in other words to bring more business to LH)?

My answer is "No". If SEN comes out as a result of my travel needs (or miles needs), that's fine. But IMO it's really not worth to go for it if you don't get better benefits.

However, the real difference may be that one or the other feels more important with that little yellow card. And in this case they can reduce SEN benefits even further...

Well, also other moms have beautiful daughters. I'll try out KLM/FD a little more in the next months. One and a quarter million matched miles will be a good basis to take a closer look.

Rudi
Aug 20, 02, 11:03 pm
some more perks for Senators (vis-à-vis Frequent Flier status):
* worldwide StarAlliance Lounge access
* can go negativ 160'000 miles on my account
* 'gives' me, when requalifying, another total of 4 years of LH-status (2 years Senator, followed by 2 years of Frequent Flier if I don't requalify for Senator)
* First Class queing (at check-in)
* Star-Gold queing (at check-in with other Star-carriers), would save me probably more than 24 hours/year on UA (but until now I have UA 1K status anyway).
* Extra Luggage allowance
* every year a special event invitation by LH Switzerland

newbe
Aug 21, 02, 5:59 am
Rudi,

I guess you are far more LH-experienced than I am (since I used to fly mainly Swissair and the rest of my business was quite spread).

However, since I usually don't do extra trips to pop up my mileage (did that just once for a very special reason), I somehow consider a second or third silver status in another alliance to be of more value than going for SEN.

But I tend to believe that I don't like the product itself too much. Since I usually don't travel in F, LH offers only a very average product IMO - and becoming worse about every other year. On top of that it really makes me thinking, that the staff is only friendly if you are quite lucky. The "MUC warden" is only an extreme example, but what kind of carrier is this that, which doesn't even care to improve the situation?

My employees already voted not to prefer LH for business travel. Good image regarding safety and a strong alliance, but very poor service, too arrogant and usually not of any help if needed.
Well, my decision will be independent from what my company decides to do, but during the next year I'll need to ask myself if M&M and SEN is really such a good choice if you like other carriers better...

Peter X
Aug 22, 02, 7:09 pm
&gt; My employees already voted not to prefer LH for business travel. Good image regarding safety and a strong alliance, but very poor service, too arrogant and usually not of any help if needed.

I feel guilty in allowing your remarks to be read without a balancing remark. When problems have arisen due to misconnections and ticketing problems, LH has been the only airline to consistently provide me with good service to resolve the problem. In my hundreds of thousands of miles flown, the staff have always been well trained and curteous. I always pick LH as my #1 choice. Arrogance may be easily confused with German efficiency.

Oh Sure I've seen the MUC Warden a few times, but you should regard her as entertainment, as FTers do, rather than a problem.

newbe
Aug 23, 02, 12:41 pm
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Peter X:
I feel guilty in allowing your remarks to be read without a balancing remark. When problems have arisen due to misconnections and ticketing problems, LH has been the only airline to consistently provide me with good service to resolve the problem. In my hundreds of thousands of miles flown, the staff have always been well trained and curteous. I always pick LH as my #1 choice. Arrogance may be easily confused with German efficiency.

Oh Sure I've seen the MUC Warden a few times, but you should regard her as entertainment, as FTers do, rather than a problem.

</font>

Fortunately we are living in a world where people can have different opinions and experiences http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif



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