JetBlue TrueBlue - another reminder of why i love b6

flew DL this past weekend for a quick trip to ATL from LGA. booked the tickets last minute using miles and was SHOCKED to see that i had to pay $55 for the ticket anyway ($50 fee + $5 taxes)! Taxes are to be expected, but the fee is just uncalled for... To make matters worse, apparently pax who use miles do not have the ability to choose emergency exit rows or aisle seats! what is this craziness? i spend loads of money over the years to rack up almost 200,000 miles and then i get treated poorly when i want to cash in on my prior investment?

this would never happen on b6, primarily because the frequent flyer program is geared to avoid this very problem. the sacrifice you make -- the expiration of points one year after the date of accrual -- makes up for the flexibility that b6 offers, but it's a small price to pay for being treated like any other customer, not being charged a ridiculous service fee, and having the ability to fly and flight in any seat, no matter what. the only reason i'd fly DL is to burn up all of those miles i've accrued (and i'll probably just use them to get upgrades at this point, though that comes with a service fee, too!). otherwise, b6 all the way.

flew DL this past weekend for a quick trip to ATL from LGA. booked the tickets last minute using miles and was SHOCKED to see that i had to pay $55 for the ticket anyway ($50 fee + $5 taxes)! Taxes are to be expected, but the fee is just uncalled for... To make matters worse, apparently pax who use miles do not have the ability to choose emergency exit rows or aisle seats! what is this craziness? i spend loads of money over the years to rack up almost 200,000 miles and then i get treated poorly when i want to cash in on my prior investment?

this would never happen on b6, primarily because the frequent flyer program is geared to avoid this very problem. the sacrifice you make -- the expiration of points one year after the date of accrual -- makes up for the flexibility that b6 offers, but it's a small price to pay for being treated like any other customer, not being charged a ridiculous service fee, and having the ability to fly and flight in any seat, no matter what. the only reason i'd fly DL is to burn up all of those miles i've accrued (and i'll probably just use them to get upgrades at this point, though that comes with a service fee, too!). otherwise, b6 all the way.


You only have to pay the $50 fee if you are booking within 21 days of travel. Otherwise there is no service fee.

flew DL this past weekend for a quick trip to ATL from LGA. booked the tickets last minute using miles and was SHOCKED to see that i had to pay $55 for the ticket anyway ($50 fee + $5 taxes)! Taxes are to be expected, but the fee is just uncalled for... To make matters worse, apparently pax who use miles do not have the ability to choose emergency exit rows or aisle seats! what is this craziness? i spend loads of money over the years to rack up almost 200,000 miles and then i get treated poorly when i want to cash in on my prior investment?

this would never happen on b6, primarily because the frequent flyer program is geared to avoid this very problem. the sacrifice you make -- the expiration of points one year after the date of accrual -- makes up for the flexibility that b6 offers, but it's a small price to pay for being treated like any other customer, not being charged a ridiculous service fee, and having the ability to fly and flight in any seat, no matter what. the only reason i'd fly DL is to burn up all of those miles i've accrued (and i'll probably just use them to get upgrades at this point, though that comes with a service fee, too!). otherwise, b6 all the way.

Not sure B6 would let you fly NYC-ATL on their award but that's another topic.

I guess for people that can use all their earned miles/points within a year of travelling its fine. However short of giving them away, that's not always the case for me personally. One year is a short timeframe. If it works for you, great, but the fact of the matter is that there's really no saving up points with B6 and for me that seems slanted too much to B6's favor than mine. Heck, even after earning 100 points, its immediately converted into an award certificate that must be redeemed within a year.

As good as the system seems on the surface, dig a little deeper and its easy to see how the B6 system greatly favors them over their pax. Maybe they're ahead of their time as it relates to other FF programs out there. For now, the B6 pax take it on the chin relative to other programs.

flew DL this past weekend for a quick trip to ATL from LGA. booked the tickets last minute using miles and was SHOCKED to see that i had to pay $55 for the ticket anyway ($50 fee + $5 taxes)! Taxes are to be expected, but the fee is just uncalled for... To make matters worse, apparently pax who use miles do not have the ability to choose emergency exit rows or aisle seats! what is this craziness? i spend loads of money over the years to rack up almost 200,000 miles and then i get treated poorly when i want to cash in on my prior investment?

this would never happen on b6, primarily because the frequent flyer program is geared to avoid this very problem. the sacrifice you make -- the expiration of points one year after the date of accrual -- makes up for the flexibility that b6 offers, but it's a small price to pay for being treated like any other customer, not being charged a ridiculous service fee, and having the ability to fly and flight in any seat, no matter what. the only reason i'd fly DL is to burn up all of those miles i've accrued (and i'll probably just use them to get upgrades at this point, though that comes with a service fee, too!). otherwise, b6 all the way.

Welcome to FT! I agree that paying ANY fee at ANY time on an award ticket is beyond stupid. The mentality of Delta's management (as well as other legacy airlines for that matter) is very shallow.

True, jetBlue can't get you from NYC-ATL, however it goes to show that legacy airlines are not as harsh with fees on some directly-competing routes with low cost airines.

I love using my TrueBlue points for free tickets - no fees expected even if I book the day before - not to mention the omission of blackout dates and higher availability...

You only have to pay the $50 fee if you are booking within 21 days of travel. Otherwise there is no service fee.

Oh....and to add something....all award fees are waived if you are a Platinum Medallion.
And yes, I agree that these fees are pretty bogus. But in a world where you have a LCC on one of your flagship routes (AirTran), these crappy fees are where Delta's bread is buttered. :eek:

make matters worse, apparently pax who use miles do not have the ability to choose emergency exit rows or aisle seats! what is this craziness?

Actually the exit row seats are reserved for their frequent customers (Medallions), not for paid ticket holders. A Medallion flier on a reward ticket could get the exit row, and, as noted previously, not pay the fee if they are platinum.

Your complaint is a rather uninformed interpretation of the rules.

True, jetBlue can't get you from NYC-ATL, however it goes to show that legacy airlines are not as harsh with fees on some directly-competing routes with low cost airines.

As far as I know, none of the legacy airlines have award fees that vary depending on competition. The fees should definitely be done away with but my experience has been that they're pretty straightforward in the rules of them, not varying by route.

Which airlines/routes do you know of where they vary?

flew DL this past weekend for a quick trip to ATL from LGA. booked the tickets last minute using miles and was SHOCKED to see that i had to pay $55 for the ticket anyway ($50 fee + $5 taxes)! Taxes are to be expected, but the fee is just uncalled for...

How much would the ticket have been if you wanted to pay cash?

How much would the ticket have been if you wanted to pay cash?

Thats totally irrelevant. He is paying with miles that are supposed to get him a FREE ticket. It costs Delta nothing more to issue him an e-ticket, 5 days before the trip than it would 30 days before.

And yes, I agree that these fees are pretty bogus. But in a world where you have a LCC on one of your flagship routes (AirTran), these crappy fees are where Delta's bread is buttered

No, where Delta's bread is buttered is on international routes and a few routes to smaller underserved domestic cities where they don't have competition.

He is paying with miles that are supposed to get him a FREE ticket.

According to who? It is a reward ticket, not a free ticket. When one chooses to accumulate points/miles in a program, one should do so knowing the rules and requirements of said program. If the OP went in not being educated as to what they were "spending loads of money" for in their "investment," why should DL be to blame.

I am not apoligizing for DL here. I don't like the fees, and I'm glad that I'm platinum on CO so I don't have to pay any when I get things done, but the fees are not new. Unless the OP has taken many, many years to accumulate the 200K point then the fees were there at enrollment. And if the OP has taken so log to accumulate the points and/or is accumulating them via a CC partner or some other indirect channel then the fees really are where DL makes their money off the redemption. DL wants to reward their frequent fliers, not their point accumulators.

The main place that carriers vary their fees based on competition is in the change fees for non-refundable tickets. I don't know of any other fees that vary on a route. That being said, those fees are basically part of the fare structure, so they are really competing on fare.

S.

I agree that paying ANY fee at ANY time on an award ticket is beyond stupid.

It's almost as stupid as having your points disappear one year after they are earned. :)

Thats totally irrelevant. He is paying with miles that are supposed to get him a FREE ticket. It costs Delta nothing more to issue him an e-ticket, 5 days before the trip than it would 30 days before.

Of course it doesn't cost anything extra to e-ticket 5 days out versus 30 days out (and it would make sense for us pax for that fee to go away). However, my point is that the fare 30 days out is likely to be different the fare 5 days out. And even with the $50 fee, using those miles is still likely to be a good deal relative to the amount of cash that would have to be paid 5 days out.

Basically, the ticket you're getting at 5 days out is probably more expensive than the one 30 days out. And I'd say its more than $50 more. If all one looks at is the fee, its very one-sided. Look at the opportunity cost of using those miles (with and without fees) and a more complete picture comes to light.

I guess for people that can use all their earned miles/points within a year of travelling its fine. However short of giving them away, that's not always the case for me personally. One year is a short timeframe. If it works for you, great, but the fact of the matter is that there's really no saving up points with B6 and for me that seems slanted too much to B6's favor than mine. Heck, even after earning 100 points, its immediately converted into an award certificate that must be redeemed within a year.

As good as the system seems on the surface, dig a little deeper and its easy to see how the B6 system greatly favors them over their pax. Maybe they're ahead of their time as it relates to other FF programs out there. For now, the B6 pax take it on the chin relative to other programs.

I see what you're saying, but the thing is that B6 offers you the flexibility to book on any flight, without a fee, and without date restrictions, (i.e., you can show up to the airport on the day of travel and fly with an award if there's a seat available on the flight, as another commentator mentioned). The rolling expiration seems annoying, but I think it definitely benefits the pax much more than DL...

Oh....and to add something....all award fees are waived if you are a Platinum Medallion.
And yes, I agree that these fees are pretty bogus. But in a world where you have a LCC on one of your flagship routes (AirTran), these crappy fees are where Delta's bread is buttered. :eek:

I find that you have to be either a) a bazillionaire or b) a very heavily travelling business person to achieve the super-duper-platinum-elite statuses with the legacies... They set the standard extremely high and -- and this is the kicker -- they require that you fly something like 30,000 miles in a one-year period. For all of the critics of B6's rolling one-year expiration, take a look at how the legacies shaft the truly loyal "elite" members by basing their elite status on miles flown in a calendar year, not on a rolling yearly basis. With B6, you lose the elitism of the legacy "loyalty" programs, which is really disguised disloyalty to the pax.

Actually the exit row seats are reserved for their frequent customers (Medallions), not for paid ticket holders. A Medallion flier on a reward ticket could get the exit row, and, as noted previously, not pay the fee if they are platinum.

Your complaint is a rather uninformed interpretation of the rules.

Perhaps I didn't write that out clearly in my original post. I am well informed of the DL rules for exit-row seating. My point was that I think the exit-row-seating policy shafts the loyal passenger that is not a Platinum Medallion member (for reasons elaborated directly above)... Why would I want to a) pay $50 to use my miles, and then b) be restricted from sitting in a comfortable seat? The whole point of loyalty is that it's like saying "Thank you being our great customer," but with all of the restrictions, DL (and other legacies) make pax feel like their giving a very, very conditional thank-you. Sure, they let you fly for free, but they treat mask their "gratitude" with conditions that easily blur the line between "thank you for being loyal" and "damn you for not paying full-fare!"

Of course it doesn't cost anything extra to e-ticket 5 days out versus 30 days out (and it would make sense for us pax for that fee to go away). However, my point is that the fare 30 days out is likely to be different the fare 5 days out. And even with the $50 fee, using those miles is still likely to be a good deal relative to the amount of cash that would have to be paid 5 days out.

Basically, the ticket you're getting at 5 days out is probably more expensive than the one 30 days out. And I'd say its more than $50 more. If all one looks at is the fee, its very one-sided. Look at the opportunity cost of using those miles (with and without fees) and a more complete picture comes to light.

Point taken w/r/t the opportunity cost. However (and in response to your earlier response), the ticket would've cost me $550 had I bought it outright. Yes, I saved $500, but at the same time, DL has kept up with LCC competition by deeply discounting its coach fares. They make up for the difference with the people who pay first-class and business fares. Esp. on a NYC-ATL flight (which is sold out 6x daily!), DL should welcome the pax who want to book w/ miles 3 days before flying regardless of whether they'd make $500 more on that ticket, primarily because once they've sold out first class and one-half of coach, they've already made a very high profit margin on the flight!

I understand, though, that it makes no sense to make different rules for free miles-flights based on the route. Your original point re opportunity cost is a good one, and your point is valid.

But to make the situation more interesting, I flew JFK-CDG r/t in December '06 (on AF). Paid $570 or so r/t and booked an L-class fare. I didn't read the (constant) fine print associated with accruing DL miles on an AF flight, and found out when I went to get my miles that L-class is one of the excluded miles-accruing fares... True, B6 doesn't have any loyalty partnerships to accrue miles with, but for the economy-class pax, DL's affiliations are basically irrelevant because the partner airlines only allow mileage accrual for full- or nearly-full-fare tickets! Why pay the full fare for a ticket to earn miles when you can fly on a "discounted" ticket? Bad service, plain and simple.

I see what you're saying, but the thing is that B6 offers you the flexibility to book on any flight, without a fee, and without date restrictions, (i.e., you can show up to the airport on the day of travel and fly with an award if there's a seat available on the flight, as another commentator mentioned).

That's not true - B6 allocates a certain number of seats per flight (varies based on route, time of year, day of week, closeness to flight, etc...) just like any other airline (i.e., if they are selling a seat on the flight, that does NOT mean that there will be an award seat available). However, based on my experience, and on other's that have posted, it seems that these allocations are more lenient on B6 than on most other airlines (that is, there's more seats available), and there are no explicit date restrictions, although on more popular dates, they may only allocate a few seats systemwide as award seats.

That's not true - B6 allocates a certain number of seats per flight (varies based on route, time of year, day of week, closeness to flight, etc...) just like any other airline (i.e., if they are selling a seat on the flight, that does NOT mean that there will be an award seat available). However, based on my experience, and on other's that have posted, it seems that these allocations are more lenient on B6 than on most other airlines (that is, there's more seats available), and there are no explicit date restrictions, although on more popular dates, they may only allocate a few seats systemwide as award seats.


If what you say is true -- and perhaps one of our B6 FAs on Reps can confirm that -- then I stand corrected. Nevertheless, there is significant value in the leniency of B6 as compared to the legacies w/r/t the amount of time before booking, the number of seats allocated for rewards, and the fact there's no fee.

When you are booking the trip withen 30 days the price of the tickets increase on any carrier.

When the value of the seat goes up and they are losing it for a non revenue person, you got to expect them to charge something.

If what you say is true -- and perhaps one of our B6 FAs on Reps can confirm that -- then I stand corrected. Nevertheless, there is significant value in the leniency of B6 as compared to the legacies w/r/t the amount of time before booking, the number of seats allocated for rewards, and the fact there's no fee.

B6 definitely does not make any and every seat available for reward redemption.

I just looked at flights one week out: Mar 22nd JFK-OAK oneway.

For selling the seats, B6 is selling seats on four non-stop flights ranging from $184 to $399 one-way plus taxes. For award redemption, one flight is available using B6 points.

For reference purposes I took a look at JFK-SFO on AA.

They are selling seats on five non-stop flights ranging from $214 to $414 plus taxes. For awards, seats on two non-stop flights available.

Point is, while B6 has this image out there of being better than the legacies nearly every time, oftentimes it just isn't the case. Take a broad look at what legacies offer and what B6 offers. They're both in the same industry with the same thin margins. There's no way B6 can be that much better than legacies. There just isn't room in the pricing structure/size equation for it to happen.

If what you say is true -- and perhaps one of our B6 FAs on Reps can confirm that -- then I stand corrected. Nevertheless, there is significant value in the leniency of B6 as compared to the legacies w/r/t the amount of time before booking, the number of seats allocated for rewards, and the fact there's no fee.

Yes, the only airline that HAD no seat capacity restrictions (but even then, a few blackout dates) WAS Southwest. So yes, NO airlines that I know of have "flexibility to book on any flight, without a fee, and without date restrictions".

I understand your frustration, but to be honest, the number of people on this alone forum that is elite (i.e. flies more than 25K (not 30K) for the lowest elite status) is plenty. They feel that their behind in seat miles should give them some extra perks like exit row seating on the legacy and that to me, is understandable. Each need to choose the program that works best for them and perhaps B6's True Blue is best for you, but I personally like Skyteam and Southwest for me because Jetblue doesn't even fly out of my preferred airport nor will I ever travel enough on them in a year to earn a reward.

With that said...I'm glad B6 is good to you...but some of us here enjoy Delta, too.

ITrue, B6 doesn't have any loyalty partnerships to accrue miles with, but for the economy-class pax, DL's affiliations are basically irrelevant because the partner airlines only allow mileage accrual for full- or nearly-full-fare tickets!

This is another example of a statement that is false and misleading. DL (and most other legacies) do have limitations on the most discounted of their partners' fare classes. That being said, in almost every case, the vast majority of the alphabet of fares do accrue miles. To say that miles are only accumulated on full and nearly full fares is just plain wrong.

Clearly B6 operates their FFP differently than the legacies do. In the end it is up to you to decide which one suits you more. The B6 plan would never work for me. I don't redeem miles for short domestic trips (generally), so I save up for long-haul premium international tix. Earning enough points in one year for that isn't going to happen for most people (though it does if you fly enough, which I have the past couple years).

As for the debate between loyalty and disloyalty, I don't understand your arguement at all. Are you suggesting that someone who flies 2x yearly, but always flies the same carrier is getting shafted relative to the person who flies weekly on the same carrier? The person who only flies 2x yearly isn't the loyal customer that the airlines want. I'm not suggesting that they can afford to give away their customers, but at some point they have to make a decision and go for the ones generating the revenue. It isn't all that hard to make elite on personal travel if you want to do it. Depending on the carrier and how much time you're willing to devote to it you can easily make the base elite level (25K miles, usually) without spending ungodly amounts of money and getting a few nice vacations out of the deal. It usually involves international travel, since the trips are much longer relative to the cost increase. As an example, my wife made silver on CO with trips to Delhi, San Francisco and Alaska one year, and a couple other short trips tossed in to top off the account. And CO rewarded her for her loyalty as a frequent flier. If you're a frequent accumulator of miles, via a CC or some other non-flight accrual method, you aren't the ideal customer for the airline, and they'll treat you that way.

S.

People belong to the Frequent Flyer Program that is going to benefit them the most. For business travelers who are flying several times a week and rack up a hundred thousand miles or more a year, TrueBlue obviously isn't for most of them. As it has been stated, TrueBlue can't get you to MXP or LHR or NRT. When most business travelers want a vacation they want to use their miles and enjoy a nice destination and a nice first or business class seat on their way there.

For the leisure traveler who has a family and doesn't travel that often, TrueBlue may be for them. If you have the AMEX card their miles won't expire and they can continue to save towards free ticket to take the family to Disney World or Busch Gardens. No one program is better than another, it just depends what your travel needs are and which program suites them the best!