Southwest Rapid Rewards - ATA codeshare--SW leaves us hanging high and dry

I am very disappointed in how SW is treating us over a snafu on a SW-ATA codeshare connection. Three of us in our family our taking a Hawaii cruise. We all start in different cities, and spent a lot of time looking for flights that would get us to Hawaii together. We ended up choosing to take SW-ATA codeshares, meeting up in Oakland (where I live) to fly together on the ATA flight out of Oakland.

Using swa.com, I booked my sister on a PHX-OAK-HNL flight. PHX-HNL was on SW, OAK-HNL was on ATA, with a SW flight number. When we originally scheduled the flight, my sister had a 3 hour connection in Oakland. However, after we booked the reservation, ATA changed its flight time, and now my sister only has a 50 minute connection in Oakland. SW no longer sells the connection on its website, as they require connection times exceeding one hour for ATA connections. I was quite concerned about this, because if my sister misses this connection, she will miss our cruise. Also, if the luggage misconnects, it is unlikely it will ever make on our cruise.

I called SW customer service, and the agent agreed the connection is a problem, and that SW overrode its connection rules to keep my sister on the ATA flight. They normally dont sell 50 minute connections between ATA and SW because it is not sufficient time to interline luggage. I told the agent I was very concerned about leaving my disabled sister in Oakland if she were to miss her connection, and proposed what I thought was a simple and reasonable solution: Put my sister on the PHX-OAK flight the night before (currently has lots of seats in the lowest fare bucket), allow her to overnight in Oakland, and pick up the OAK-HNL flight the next day. The agent acknowledged that the short connection time was concerning, but refused this solution. The rationale was that overnight connections were not allowed. I was told that doing this would require totally rebooking the tickets at a charge of $230. I replied that I understood that the normal tariff rules would not allow an overnight connection, but I saw no reason that SW could not simply give my sister a seat on the flight the day before--even though it may be a comp on paper, it would not really cost anything since the it would really just be exchanging a seat one PHX-OAK flight for another.

The agent then told me he was not about to override their usual tariff rules, because the problem was not Southwest's because it was caused by ATA rescheduliing. He said this was no different than if I had bought a ticket from a travel agent. I would never expect the travel agency to be financially responsible if the airline messed up. He said SW is really just the travel agency for ATA. I found this to be a rather ridiculous analogy. After all i bought the ticket on the SW website, and both flights have SW flight numbers. It seems if SW decided to sell codeshares, they have a responsibility for providing viable connections.

In the end, the SW customer service official told me I have 3 choices: We could take our chances on the short connection, we could pay $250 to rebook the tickets with the overnight connection, or he could put us on a much later flight that would cause us to miss our cruise.

I am quite disappointed in SW. The attitude seems very cavalier, particularly towards a disabled passenger. I dont understand how they can justify selling code shares on their website, and leave their customers high and dry when the connection is no longer viable (by their own rules), and then give silly excuses for not making reasonable accomodations to fix the problem.

Phone Customer Relations in Dallas. I can practically guarantee that they will grant your very reasonable request. In fact a second phone call to reservations asking them to involve the Help Desk would likely also succeed.

Every airline has customer service failures, and IMHO this was one.

I would agree with NSX. Take your concern to a higher authority. Customer Relations is probably your best bet.

Unfortunately, the conversation I am describing was with customer relations in Dallas. They had me talk with someone in HQ who works with ATA on the codeshare flights, and he was adamant that SW was not going to make any accomodations for what was "an ATA problem."

Wow, I'm shocked!:confused: What an idiotic attitude!!! C'mon, WN employees, help this person out with their disabled sister!

What is WN turning into? Any other airline would grant this VERY reasonable request. It seems that WN doesn't have a clue about longer haul flights and coordinating people getting there properly.

I feel even more stupid now having just moved over 100K of AMEX Membership Rewards into SWA RR awards, thinking I could (a) book some cheap award seats from DAL to PHX; nope; had all sorts of problems and ultimately gave up and used a different airline; I posted on that issue in a different thread.

Now, with a trip planned for my family of five to Hawaii this DEC, once again...after reading these horror stories, forget about considering using LUV (ATA) after reading stories like this.

Is SWA going to totally trash the excellent reputation of RR that they earned over decades..in a single year ? Between stories like this, and capacity controls which pre-empt my ability to put my family of five on a plane to a very frequent routing not even 25 days into the window opening for that routing (for my dates and times), they are falling fast in the area of C R E D I B I L I T Y for me, but fast.

Stories like this make my hair curl and provide ample reason to AVOID AVOID AVOID a ff program. After all, I can't afford to get deep into extensive planning to have a decision like this arise. Not to mention my time is valuable and I won't get into begging an airline to do the right thing. If SWA "sold" the tix on their website, via codeshare, then they have some obligation to provide some sort of solution The ridiculous thing is the solution is so simple and easy.

End of story.

To be fair, I should further disclose what I believe to be the thinking of SW in this matter. Since tariff rules do not allow overnight connections, SW can not simply change the ticket to a flight that has an overnight connection. They would essentially have to comp my sister on the PHX-OAK flight the day before. So, on paper, this would appear to be a somewhat costly solution. (though not that costly, as the lowest fare buckets are open). However, it is really only a paper cost. They would be giving up a seat on the PHX-OAK flight the day before, but a seat would open up for sale on the PHX-OAK flight the next day. So, the rationale for not accomodating my sister is mostly bureaucratic. This may also reflect SW's historic dislike of codesharing and internal resentment at having to deal with the consequences that arise out of the decision to sell codeshares. Still, for a company that has always prided itself on a flexible approach to satisfying its customers, and brags about how they like to "color outside the lines" I find it incredibly disappointing they they are not willing to take responsibilty for flights they sell under SW flight numbers on their own website, and agree to a reasonable solution.

To be fair, I should further disclose what I believe to be the thinking of SW in this matter. Since tariff rules do not allow overnight connections, SW can not simply change the ticket to a flight that has an overnight connection. They would essentially have to comp my sister on the PHX-OAK flight the day before. So, on paper, this would appear to be a somewhat costly solution. (though not that costly, as the lowest fare buckets are open). However, it is really only a paper cost. They would be giving up a seat on the PHX-OAK flight the day before, but a seat would open up for sale on the PHX-OAK flight the next day. So, the rationale for not accomodating my sister is mostly bureaucratic. This may also reflect SW's historic dislike of codesharing and internal resentment at having to deal with the consequences that arise out of the decision to sell codeshares. Still, for a company that has always prided itself on a flexible approach to satisfying its customers, and brags about how they like to "color outside the lines" I find it incredibly disappointing they they are not willing to take responsibilty for flights they sell under SW flight numbers on their own website, and agree to a reasonable solution.

Clearly, WN is just turning into another legacy airline. Honestly, all they have to do is go into the reservation, change the date and the flight, and document that you have already paid for it. Yes, it does require an override, but you would think the situation would merit it. I would file an ADA complaint against them in that they changed their flights (it has a WN flight number, no matter what) and refused to accomodate a disabled person according to their own minimum connecting times. I would also file a DOT customer service complaint as well.

I would also send them a certified letter requesting the change. And ask for a written response so that you can have it later.

There's not an earlier flight the same day from PHX to OAK?

There's not an earlier flight the same day from PHX to OAK?


nope--my sister is already on the earliest flight. It used to leave a quite long connection time in Oakland, but when ATA moved up the time of the time of its OAK-HNL flight, it only left a short connection time. The early AM connectioin out of PHX is no longer offered for sale on the SW website, as it does not meet SW minimum connection time for ATA codeshares.

nope--my sister is already on the earliest flight. It used to leave a quite long connection time in Oakland, but when ATA moved up the time of the time of its OAK-HNL flight, it only left a short connection time. The early AM connectioin out of PHX is no longer offered for sale on the SW website, as it does not meet SW minimum connection time for ATA codeshares.

Is it possible to rebook the outbound as independent flights -- i.e. a Southwest flight from PHX to OAK the night before, then the ATA flight the next day?

Why not just book the entire ticket through a different connecting city, or even an ATA N/S from Phoenxi? They should accomodate you since you don't have a "legal connection".

Is it possible to rebook the outbound as independent flights -- i.e. a Southwest flight from PHX to OAK the night before, then the ATA flight the next day?

At the time we originally booked the ticket this would have certainly been possible. It would have been slightly more expensive to book this as two tickets. A one way OAK-PHX, and then OAK-HNL, HNL-PHX. There was of course no need to do this originally, as we had plenty of time for layover in OAK. Doing this now would require us to totally cancel the original reservation, and rebook everything. This would cost about $250 more as the lowest fare buckets on the HNL flights are gone.

Why not just book the entire ticket through a different connecting city, or even an ATA N/S from Phoenix? They should accomodate you since you don't have a "legal connection".

Three problems with this. First, the ATA nonstop from PHX is a late departure arriving too late for our cruise. Second, the whole reason we did this in the first place was to travel together to HNL out of the Bay Area. We had other options at the time we booked, that were close in price, but chose SW-ATA because it was the best deal, offered the best connection for flying together from the bay area, and we were all loyal SW flyers. At the time of the booking we could have chosen options similar in price, but these have all become much more expensive with time as well. Perhaps in retrospect, we made a bad decision, but I still think the fundamental question is why SW will not take responsibity for tickets they sell under their flight number on their website.

I think this whole thread by saying 'look their airline has gone to ****' is doing a disservice.

NSX gave great advice to call. Calling Dalls OFTEN gets a rep who has more control over the situation than a day to day reservations agent... but calling doesn't ensure that your situation will be reviewed while-you-wait by the person or team with the most ability to help you.

Since they were unable to assist (certainly not unwilling-just unable), then the next thing to do would be to fax someone in Dallas, *OR* politely ask to talk to a supervisor. Situations as complex as this rarely get handled 100% over the phone, because every time someone new has to come on board the phone call the scenario has to be re-described.

I agree that the complexity isn't just a flight change but you are now asking to do something their booking system can not do. If you were to write up a single-page letter, just describing what happened and asking Southwest to make a reasonable accomodation, then I feel you'll get a very quick return phone call.

They can charge you the higher price then give you a credit to your credit card, they can provide you with vouchers for future travel, etc. They could also simply let you cancel for a full refund since the connection changed. Nothing is forcing them to let you fly the night before without a higher cost. And truthfully the schedule change was ATA's doing, who they have little control over (they just partner with). You are asking them to do something that they never or almost never do--overnight layover. Sure, you happen to be local to OAK so you can provide overnight accomodations... I'm sure once the reservation agent heard about how willing and encouraged you were to do an overnight layover, they may have overlooked your need for this accomodation and interperted it as a want to spend time overnight in OAK without paying extra, as people often want to do.

A handicap may come into play as a reasonable reason why a 50 minute connection isn't enough time. Bending the connection time policy hurts them as much as it hurts you--I've seen flights held all the time waiting for connecting passengers. By them agreeing to lower the margin by 10 minutes, they risk delaying the departing flight. The fact is though that the 60 minute rule for that airport/interline is probably based on a worse case scenario--late incoming flight, baggage, other flight on time or early, complete furthest gates, baggage delays, etc).

If a passenger in a wheelchair or any other disability had a short connection time, I'd recommend that they asked a flight attendant to call over to the other gate.

If they keep telling you the 50 minute connection is going to be the best they can do, then just plan on writing in a complaint if her bags don't make it until the next flight etc. Or cancel the trip and pick another carrier.. by them changing the time, you certainly have a valid reason to get a refund instead of a ticketless credit.

I assume you have some time between now and your trip, so you're trying to get this done with no $$ out of pocket initially, but as more time passes there is chance the PHX-OAK might sell out too. Sometimes you need to take matters into your own hands, and the worst case maximum PHX-OAK fare is $183, much less than the $250 difference in price you mentioned for rebooking the entire ATA flight.

I'm sure Southwest management would ultimately relate to you having to make the best decision for you and your family members if this was a trip that was happening tomorrow or this weekend, and they didn't have time to reply to your fax or letter.

two possible solutions:
1) as someone else said, call ATA and make them put her on a PHX-HNL nonstop.. maybe she can stay on your flight on the way home...

2) Book and pay for a PHX-OAK flight on WN. Book the cheapest fare bucket available and for the heck of it to lower your possible losses keep an eye on ding fares. Have her fly the night before using the separately purchased ticket, and miss the departing flight from PHX-OAK. The OAK-HNL will still be valid and active. Then, after your trip write a letter to WN asking for a credit card refund of the $$ spent on the separately booked PHX-OAK flight.

I'm quite certain, that WN customer relations will be pleased that you found a way to make it work for your situation, and at the same time disappointed that you had to go to all those efforts (which may inspire a fix or adjustment to their codeshare agreements). Then they will refund you for the evening flight. If they don't, at the very least they will give you a ticketless funds. You can resell the ticketless funds at nearly 100% value or use them.

Heck worst if WN gave you the finger and said they won't refund or credit at all, then I'd have to think you'd have pretty good grounds for a credit card chargeback after the fact.

2) Book and pay for a PHX-OAK flight on WN. Book the cheapest fare bucket available and for the heck of it to lower your possible losses keep an eye on ding fares. Have her fly the night before using the separately purchased ticket, and miss the departing flight from PHX-OAK. The OAK-HNL will still be valid and active.

That's not entirely true. Most airlines will cancel your remaining itinerary... all of it... if you fail to board a segment.

This prevents people that live in ATL, buying a BHM-ATL-LAX-ATL-BHM flight for half the price of ATL-LAX-ATL and just getting on and off in ATL.

Most airlines will cancel your remaining itinerary... all of it... if you fail to board a segment.

WN won't. That's why booking on WN was recommended. I concur that Customer Relations would almost certainly issue a refund for the additional fare after the fact.

ATA should pay the difference to SW to reaccomodate you. I don't think SW has done anything wrong here as it wasn't in their control.

Interesting thread. To the OP, from your original fax or e-mail receipt, you indicated that both flights have WN flight numbers, even though the over water segment is operated by ATA. Verify that there is one ticket number on the receipt which presumably starts 526- which is a Southwest ticket number.

If I understand the rules correctly, if it's a WN ticket for the entire itinerary, they have the responsibility to accommodate you in the event of irregular ops, which is what the reduced time connection amounts to. As for passing the buck to ATA for their schedule change: from your perspective as the passenger, that is, in my opinion, nonsense. If I fly on a United 016-ticket with a code share segment on Air Canada, it is still United's problem to accommodate me if AC has a schedule change or cancellation.

I would call Customer Service again and ask for a Supervisor. And if none of the suggestions made in this thread work, a letter to the DOT does seem appropriate.

Good luck.

ATA should pay the difference to SW to reaccomodate you. I don't think SW has done anything wrong here as it wasn't in their control.

Do you fly other airlines??? All airlines realize that their partners change flight times occasionally. Most airlines bend over backwards to make sure that their passengers are suitably re-accomodated. With all due respect, that WN supervisor is an IDIOT. What kind of stupid supervisor would react like that?

That being said, I missed the cruise part. I would never cut it that close for a cruise! I would always stay overnight.

Yes, quite frequently as I'm 1K and Plat on AA. I did not say that the OP should contact ATA for help. Southwest should fix it for her.

Southwest and ATA do not have a typical codeshare agreement. Since Southwest is providing nearly all the connecting traffic for ATA these days, I'd hope they'd be smart enough (and they already effectively dictate to ATA what they want) to have terms that place their connecting traffic as the primary driver of the ATA schedule and put the burden on ATA to deliver.

You can't compare the terms of codeshares for the three alliances with this situation.

Do you fly other airlines??? All airlines realize that their partners change flight times occasionally. Most airlines bend over backwards to make sure that their passengers are suitably re-accomodated. With all due respect, that WN supervisor is an IDIOT. What kind of stupid supervisor would react like that?

That being said, I missed the cruise part. I would never cut it that close for a cruise! I would always stay overnight.

WN won't. That's why booking on WN was recommended. I concur that Customer Relations would almost certainly issue a refund for the additional fare after the fact.

I think this is half true. While WN will not cancel the return half of an itinerary if you fail to fly the first half, if you just show up mid flight (in this senerio OAK) there's a chance the entire first half of the ticket is "cancelled" meaning no seat saved to go from OAK-HNL. I've never tried this, just what's been told to me.

Call WN again and see if you can talk to a different agent. If not, try again.

Also mention the COC (http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/coc.pdf) [pdf]

85. Failure to Operate as Scheduled (Issued July 12, 2005; Effective July 12, 2005)
A. Cancelled Flights or Late or Irregular Operations - In the event Carrier cancels or fails to operate any flight according to Carrier's published schedule, or changes the schedule of any flight, Carrier will, at the request of a passenger confirmed on such flight:
(1) transport the passenger at no additional charge on Carrier's next flight(s) on which space is available to the passenger’s intended destination, in accordance with Carrier’s established reaccommodation practices; or
(2) refund the unused portion of the passenger’s fare in accordance with Article 90 below.
B. Except to the extent provided in Article 85.A. above, Carrier shall not be liable for any failure or delay in operating any flight due to causes beyond Carrier’s control, including but not limited to, acts of God, governmental actions, fire, weather, mechanical difficulties, Air Traffic Control, strikes or labor disputes, or inability to obtain fuel for the flight in question. Carrier shall use its best efforts to notify all affected passengers promptly of planned schedule changes and service withdrawals.
C. Carrier will attempt to transport passengers and their baggage promptly and as scheduled. Flight schedules, however, are subject to change without notice, and the times shown in or on Carrier’s published schedules, tickets, and advertising are not guaranteed. At times, without prior notice to passengers, Carrier may need to substitute other aircraft or airlines and may change, add, or omit intermediate or connecting stops. Carrier cannot guarantee that passengers will make connections to other flights of its own or those of other airlines. In the event of flight schedule changes, Carrier will attempt to so notify affected passengers as soon as possible at the airport or enroute.

That being said, I missed the cruise part. I would never cut it that close for a cruise! I would always stay overnight.

Agreed. That's probably the biggest "whoops" of this entire story. Always arrive the day BEFORE a cruise.

the ATA nonstop from PHX is a late departure arriving too late for our cruise.

That's cutting it awfully close. What if there are thunderstorms in PHX or OAK or any of your party's other originating cities? Or a mechanical delay?

Much thanks for everyone's advice. A few clarifications. I already have spoken to a supervisor in customer service in Dallas. The conversation I reported was with a supervisor who told me he handles issues relating ATA codeshare. I will take the advice to follow-up with a letter, but i think i have already talken to the person who has authority to set policy in this area. It seems SW really just views themselves as the travel agent for ATA, and takes no responsibility for tickets they sell on their website, with their flight numbers.

If I thought it would help, I would buy our own backup PHX-OAK ticket the day before. However, while I know SW will allow you on a flight if I you just show up for the connecting portion, having skipped the first leg, there is no guarantee ATA will follow the same policy. It seems to risky to just hope ATA will list my sister fly if she just shows up at the ticket counter in Oakland.

I will follow the advice to report this to the DOT as a disability complaint. Looking at their website, it does look like the DOT separately tracks disability complaints, and at times sanctions airlines that fail to provide appropriate accomodations. The state of California is also aggressive in this area, so I will look into filing a complaint with the proper agency there as well.

If you really wanna stick it to SWA, contact www.consumerist.com and tell them your story. SWA got some real bad press on a story that took off from consumerist.com. To read about that fiasco, click below:

2nd ticket request for sick fat man generates controversy (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=651852&highlight=consumer)

Frankly, I think that other guy's complaint was a complete joke. He was in the wrong and took it up with SWA and he still won the battle because of all the bad press that SWA got for it. FWIW, I'm on your side on this one and I think SWA CAN AND SHOULD put your sister on the flight the night before. Frankly, I would call them back up, ask to speak with the boss of the supervisor (or the Manager or whatever). Calmly explain your situation again and give them the same options. It's no skin off their back to allow your sister on the flight the night before. I don't care if their system's aren't setup to allow it. That's why supervisors and managers have the ability to override things like that.

If they still say no, tell them that they have one last chance to reconsider before you contact consumerist.com. BTW, consumerist.com routinely does followup stories with the companies that they have previous written about (and they obviously have something against SWA with the disgraceful story they wrote about them previously). They would eat your story up, especially if you play the "disability card" (not that I would advocate that normally, but desperate situaitons call for desperate measures ;) ). In all honesty though, I too am betting that you just got a bad apple when you called (or maybe they were having a bad day or something, who knows). I'd say there's a 98% chance that they will see their error, correct their mistake, and put your sister on the other flight before you have to take any of the desperate measures listed above.

The conversation I reported was with a supervisor who told me he handles issues relating ATA codeshare. I will take the advice to follow-up with a letter, but i think i have already talken to the person who has authority to set policy in this area.

Don't lose faith--do write that letter. All of my dealings with Southwest and many other FTers here have proven that the people who answer mailed-in letters are MUCH higher up and customer service focused than any telephone rep/supervisor/manager/etc that you can get by dialing in. For example, when writing in with a concern it's common that the entire flight crew from a flight is contacted for their side of the story. THEN and only then do they call you to discuss their findings. When you get someone on the phone that puts them on the spot to make an immediate decision, which is then made according to policy. The person reading the concern makes it their duty to familiarize themselves with the policy and how it caused an issue, and shares your concern if it's a valid one.. even if they DON'T agree with you, they seem to still pass out some $$ saving vouchers like candy. my guess is if you have a million passengers, 500 will have something happen that they feel a need to call or post to a forum, and 50 of those will go as far as writing a letter.

Your customer service supervisor on the phone was citing policy. The folks who read your letter tell you why the policy exists, tell you they agree it stinks in your case, then they will likely break the policy or work out a creative solution. they may not be able to get the policy changed moving forward so that it doesn't happen again to any other passenger, because in this case the $$ required to change a policy that doesn't need changed for 99.9% of flights and have a partner agree might be huge.

Whether or not ATA would let you board a connecting portion of the trip is a good question... I suspect they will, because southwest does, and you can prove that you 'took an earlier flight'. Heck you'll even have seat #s confirmed on the ATA portion. Since they'll likely be in OAK the night before, they could reconfirm/check in for ATA when they land and again right about the time the origina PHX-OAK flight was taking off

If they still say no, tell them that they have one last chance to reconsider before you contact consumerist.com.

I disagree with this advice. I'll play the good guy up to and including buying a ticket for the earlier flight, then I'd write to request a refund. A written request guarantees either favorable action or a written reply. If they turn you down, then you can go negative. But they won't turn you down, and you don't need to threaten anything. Threats probably hurt you more than they help you.

It sounds like the problem for SWA is the overnight stay. Have you considered changing both you and your sister's reservations to the day before? Is that an option for you? If you can get SWA to give you the same price for both reservations, then you only have to come up with the cost of a hotel the night before your cruise, which may be less than what you were quoted to change her reservation to travel the night before. This will get you and hopefully your luggage there the day before. (I'm always worried about my luggage getting somewhere because an airline once lost my luggage on a nonstop flight.):confused:

If both of you can't go the day before all the way to HNL, you may be able to change her original reservation to just OAK - HNL. If you still have the notice, the prices from OAK - HNL are a little less than the prices from PHX - HNL. If you do get a lower price, SWA will let you use that difference towards the purchase of another reservation. You could use that to buy her a OW ticket the night before from PHX - OAK. If you just purchased a reservation for her to travel the night before from PHX - OAK there is a fun fare online which is $124-$144, still less than the amount you were quoted to change her reservation. I do understand your concern about her just showing up for the connecting flight, but this would solve that problem.