American Express Membership Rewards - New USA Centurion Fees - Just confirmed on the phone

After seeing some people talking about raising the annual fees for Centurion card holders, I hopped on the phone to customer service and the first person claimed to have no knowledge of any changes, but the second one knew exactly what the deal is:

Starting May 1st, *new* Centurion Card members will be charged a US$5000 initiation fee - a one time charge - then the annual fee after that will be $2500.

Holy godzooks. She confirmed that *existing* members will not have any change of fees, including those of us that were grandfathered in at the original $1000 fee.

It is an interesting change in the way they are doing memberships - rather than bury it in the annual fee they are charging you a "friendship" fee of $5k, as well as the $2500 a year.

When I asked why the unusual pricing model, she said it was because of a lot of the benefits are expensive to them up front, and this helps absorb the costs.

I wonder how this is going to change new cardholders? I suppose it will be more of a status thing, basically saying "I have $5k of totally expendable income." This has to be a deep cut into new card members, as seen in postings on the forums, the $2500 took some serious rationalization.

Thoughts?

--Doug

... rather than bury it in the annual fee they are charging you a "friendship" fee of $5k, as well as the $2500 a year.


Is it your understanding that the inital year would cost 5000 + 2500 = $7500, or is it $5000 for the first year, $2500 thereafter?

My guess is that this has to do with the fact that more and more people are requesting the Centurion card, rather than waiting for an invite. Amex feels they will be willing to pay this fee. Let's face it, if you're charging $250K a year and paying $2500 annually, another 5K really isn't a big amount.

I worked at the Amex Members Lounge at the Short Hills Mall this holiday season. The number one question I was asked was, "How do I get the black card?" Interesting note as well: the signage that Amex provided to the front desk had pictures of all the cards that could be used to gain entrance into the lounge, including the Centurion. It was the first time I'd seen any sort of "admission" by Amex that the card even exists.

I worked at the Amex Members Lounge at the Short Hills Mall this holiday season.
What was this? (i.e., what did they do?)

FWIW - In Australia, the Centurion has jumped from AU2800pa to AU4300pa.

Best part is, according to the lack of information accompanying the new card (the metal one) the benefits seem to have decreased...

Im wondering if they are going to ease up on the spending requirements after adding the one-time inital fee?

Is it your understanding that the inital year would cost 5000 + 2500 = $7500, or is it $5000 for the first year, $2500 thereafter?

Good question, I didn't think to ask, I probably was still in the "I'm not on the hook for this, right?" mode.

I was rather surprised that the first person I called had absolutely no knowledge of it and I asked the question several different ways.

I hung up and called back and the second person knew it so well it was as if she had the memo in front of her.

The other thing I wondered after I hung up was if this fee would be charged to new additional cardholders on your account (ie: spouse) if you were an existing holder, like if I've had the card for years and after May add my daughter, does she have to pay $5k?

Also, for new members, does the $5k cover you and any additional cards, or is it $5k per card? I'd guess the $5k is for the primary cardholder, and additional cards could be added at $1500 per person, like it is now for the non-grandfathered.

What was this?

http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp/pc/2006/members_lounge.asp

http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp/pc/2006/members_lounge.asp
What- we couldn't get this at the Beverly Center, too?! :p

I worked at the Amex Members Lounge at the Short Hills Mall this holiday season. The number one question I was asked was, "How do I get the black card?" Interesting note as well: the signage that Amex provided to the front desk had pictures of all the cards that could be used to gain entrance into the lounge, including the Centurion. It was the first time I'd seen any sort of "admission" by Amex that the card even exists.

Did you see many Cent cards during the holidays? I'm always curious how many are really in circulation. The guy at the ski rental place at Sundance said that mine was the 7th he had seen that season, Amex once told me that there were less than 10k in the US.

initiation fees are not that big of a deal IMHO.

sure itd be nice not to have it, but its only a one time fee.

i presume this means theyll be starting to do it in more countries. i believe its asia that theyve had it so far, now USA, probably EU to follow..

Im wondering if they are going to ease up on the spending requirements after adding the one-time inital fee?

I'm sure they will. Think its more a marketing issue than anything else - to preserve exclusivity. Amex feel that part of the attraction of getting the card is that you are getting something most people can't have - even for money. You have to prove your worthiness. But at the same time they will want as many cardholders as possible. Once they think they've got the thinking over and have got as many signed up on that basis as possible, they start turning it into cash... ie you too can have it now for the entry fee. Don't suppose many people will drop Cent if it becomes available to all-comers for a fat entry fee. And anyway, those that do drop it (especially those that are grandfathered) will represent little fee income lost compared with the gain from new comers - all thinking they are buying their way into something special. Commission on spend might well remain as many would just drop back to Plat anyway.

Feel its a bit slash and burn. I remember getting Plat thinking part of the attraction was it was "invite only" (that's what they told me). Within weeks it was available to all comers subject to a routine credit check.

Just a ratchet job.

Amex has lost thier marbles.

Did you see many Cent cards during the holidays? I'm always curious how many are really in circulation. The guy at the ski rental place at Sundance said that mine was the 7th he had seen that season, Amex once told me that there were less than 10k in the US.

We usually had 6 or 7 each day, out of a few thousand total cards. The funniest part was that there would always be someone who would throw it down on the counter and say, "I'll bet you've never seen one of these before!" ("Yeah, other than the one in my wallet" was what I wanted to say...) The platinum cardholders, however, were usually the most obnoxious.

We usually had 6 or 7 each day, out of a few thousand total cards. The funniest part was that there would always be someone who would throw it down on the counter and say, "I'll bet you've never seen one of these before!" ("Yeah, other than the one in my wallet" was what I wanted to say...) The platinum cardholders, however, were usually the most obnoxious.

Ahh Franklin Lakes, that's awesome! I'm a Wyckoff boy myself.

Anyway, eveeeryone in NY Metro who wants one has one, they're a dime a dozen, nothing to be impressed by and I'm surprised people would do that.

Ahh Franklin Lakes, that's awesome! I'm a Wyckoff boy myself.

Anyway, eveeeryone in NY Metro who wants one has one, they're a dime a dozen, nothing to be impressed by and I'm surprised people would do that.

In any bar after work filled with Wall Street guys you can see 10 or 20 in an hour.

Amex is definitely trying to maintain the perceived exclusivity. The increase in annual fees, the raised spending threshold, even the elimination of a benefit (*wood Plat) that motivated many to get the card are all designed to try and preserve the card's cachet.

I wonder if the initiation fee will work.

I'm curious to see what services are expensive up front... Surely the margin cost for an additional member is next to nothing in most cases...?

Are they saying they have to buy each individual airline membership (for instance) separately? That's just silly, IMHO...

This $5K fee seems like a total rip-off to me...

for things like this, joining fees have nothing to do with actual cost to supplier.

CENT in HKG has had a $3K joining fee. i thought more countries did, but it appears to be the only one, according to M-Site.

If they are charging 5k initiation fee I would think anyone with a pulse and 5k an now get the cent card.:p

for things like this, joining fees have nothing to do with actual cost to supplier.

CENT in HKG has had a $3K joining fee. i thought more countries did, but it appears to be the only one, according to M-Site.

Germany has had the joining fee for ages.I think only the launch Centurion holders in Germany did not have to pay this. IIRC the joining fee was € 1.000.

Just called cent cs twice to confirm as well. $7,500 for the first year for new accounts 5k joining fee on top of 2500 anual. and all members grandfathered in at 1k going up to 2500 anual fee so everybodys paying same now.

$5000 -- INITIATION FEE ...SURE.....

looks like the price of titanium in the world market has gone up....

$7500 for the first year....WOW !!!! for what:

Crappy CSR
Crappy Travel service
VS GOLD for US based cardholders....WOW!!!
FHR benefits
I think that even MO benefit is losing ground

what else does Centurion offer? Really, why would anyone pay 7500/yr for this card.....STATUS ????

Seriously, if anyone is going for this, pls call me at 876-5329 for a great deal on oceanfront property in Arizona !!!!

... confirmed that *existing* members will not have any change of fees, including those of us that were grandfathered in at the original $1000 fee.


Just called cent cs twice to confirm as well .... all members grandfathered in at 1k going up to 2500 anual fee so everybodys paying same now.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned could be troubling. Exclusivity has an advantage - it means AMEX can go to certain vendors and ask them to give a "small" group some privileges. If they start selling the card and if more and more people sign up, it may stretch the limits of what the other vendors are willing to give. Is there a limit to how many gold cards Continental feels it can give out? I don't know the answer, but it is a concern.

If it is true that all cardholders will begin to pay $2,500 and that new cardholders will pay $7,500 the first year, I take this to mean that American Express does indeed want to reduce the number of Centurion accounts. This might well enable them to provide a higher level of service and benefits because their partners would not dilute their own programs. Why would you find this "troubling"? It seems to be an attempt to deliver the original promise of Centurion.

If they start selling the card and if more and more people sign up, it may stretch the limits of what the other vendors are willing to give.
Isn't this already happening? It seems that when Cent was first introduced, it was a great deal ($1K/yr, all sorts of anemities that aren't there anymore (SP Plat, HH Diamond, etc.)). I keep hearing FT Cent members- folks who'd I'd assume aren't sweating the membership fees, but at the same time don't have money to "throw away"- complaining about Cent and threatening to downgrade to Plat or leave AmEx altogether.

(Hell, I'll admit it; back in the day I figured one day I'd get Cent too based on the anemities and the "Black Card Factor", but now I think Plat is just fine and will stay even if my spend comes up to invitation levels.)

My guess is 5k initiaton equals no more spend threshold to get card.

My guess is 5k initiaton equals no more spend threshold to get card.
?!

Won't this only put the card into the hands of more of the "bet you never saw one of these before?" crowd that ClimberMom was talking about?

This is truly ridiculous. I am a platinum cardmember who joined the CENTURION ranks last year for about a week until I realized that the benefits of Centurion did not really justify the cost... and that was $2500...!!

and all members grandfathered in at 1k going up to 2500 anual fee so everybodys paying same now.

!?!

I'm sensing the 250k spend requirement will no longer be enforced. Got 5k initiation your in.:confused:

I'm sensing the 250k spend requirement will no longer be enforced. Got 5k initiation your in.:confused:

No chance.

also new spend requirements

now min spend is 350k for personal and 450k for business she said its trying to make it far more exclusive.

lets hope this is a good sign for benefits..

personally, i would have no problem paying $5000 initiation right now.

also new spend requirements

now min spend is 350k for personal and 450k for business she said its trying to make it far more exclusive.

I don't believe this can be true. There's no way they are increasing to $5000 and increasing the spend. The people who currently met the spend requirements and weren't Cent obviously didn't want to pay $2.5k, and the others who would be willing to weren't meeting the $250k requirement. Basically that means if they introduce these rates you will see virtually no new Cent members.

which is what they want.. virtually being the key word.

Just called cent cs twice to confirm as well ... and all members grandfathered in at 1k going up to 2500 anual fee so everybodys paying same now.

lets hope this is a good sign for benefits..

personally, i would have no problem paying $5000 initiation right now.

I'd be genuinely interested to know how you can rationalise the fee.

Quite frankly, I am not a poor man but I still look for value in everything I buy and I cannot see where the value is with Centurion. There is no way I would pay the UK equivalent of $5k to sign up.

The one benefit I can see from a $5k fee is that it would get rid of those people who only have it because they charge business expenses to their personal card. The vast majority of UK Centurions I know obtained their cards this way. (You cannot, for example, pay your tax on an Amex in the UK, which would get most of us over the threshold in one go, neither can you buy a car with one because dealers rarely take plastic for more than a deposit.)

for me its basically about FHR and other hotel benefits. (@ ~$2500/yr)

the one time fee i see as no big deal.. its one time. even $10K wouldnt be too bad.

and im obviously talking about the US, other countries have more or less benefits, and different fees. its also not completely fair to compare $ to GBP fees in terms of the exchange rate, because GBP earners are earning more comparatively.

But FHR comes with the $500 Plat card - so you need to get $2,000 of value from the (rapidly depleting in attractiveness due to restrictions) MO free night deal and the Cent-only rates at R-C's and the like. It's not impossible, I admit (1 night in an MO suite for free covers it) but for most people the sums won't work.

confirmed upgrades, additional benefits, RC centurion rate

also double the $ credits and MR bonuses for travel and whatnot, is another thing that adds up fast

im not most people, especially on FT. i dont care about airline status, and i do care a lot about luxury hotel benefits :p

LoL, I thought the Amex Plat card at $350 was a total Rip and turned it down along with The Centurion as well.

If theres a Fee I dont want the card, the only Fee Card I carry is the New Marriott Premeir VISA as its benefits/savings are over 10x the $65 fee. (15 nights towards my Plat status is worth $1125 at $75 x 15 nights cheapest Hotel night $69 + Tx, plus the free night cert can be worth another $400 in savings).

Other then that I dont wont pay fees, my SPG Amex has been comped the past few yrs as well, once they stop I'll Cancel it on the spot.

But FHR comes with the $500 Plat card - so you need to get $2,000 of value from the (rapidly depleting in attractiveness due to restrictions) MO free night deal and the Cent-only rates at R-C's and the like. It's not impossible, I admit (1 night in an MO suite for free covers it) but for most people the sums won't work.


that is why I won't get a CENT...even if a free night at the MO was included....it would never work out in the long run.....

I take a vacation once a yr and with a growing family, staying at the MO is not financially a smart move....I would rather stay at Suite at any other hotel so that I can have more cash to spend on other activities....

I mean, I am not a poor man, but I definitly looks for ways to stretch the buck farther...

but the CENT is exactly opposite of that...

Well I'm sure they will be announcing many more benefits for the increased "privalige" of having a Cent card. :)

Personally, the $1K ($1500 with spouse) is ok but more than double that I'm not sure.

I have a friend who received an invitation last week at the $1,000.00 rate. He called and they said "if you are invited it is 1,000, if not it is 5000."

carries a $5k initiation fee, increasing its cache and discouraging the riff-raff from inquiring how to get it. But they are willing to invite new cardmembers with a more reasonable $1k initiation fee.

carries a $5k initiation fee, increasing its cache and discouraging the riff-raff from inquiring how to get it. But they are willing to invite new cardmembers with a more reasonable $1k initiation fee.

I would rather have the "riff raff" than the following:

Paris Hilton
Brittany Spears
Lindsay Lohan

at least the "riff raff" hardly ever travel intl and go anywhere where I go !!!

I would rather have the "riff raff" than the following:
Yabbut aren't those kinds of folks pretty much given the card, so that other folks will see them with it, and aspire to it?

I first heard about Centurion a few years ago due to its being mentioned in the music I listen to, which has to be some of the best marketing for it (and the "unobtainable" cachet it's supposed to hold.)

I would rather have the "riff raff" than the following:

Paris Hilton
Brittany Spears
Lindsay Lohan

at least the "riff raff" hardly ever travel intl and go anywhere where I go !!!

I dont know where you going that you run into them all time but it not like places your going require you to have a Centurion to enter. I personally I do not mind running into coked out versions of them exposing themself in public personally I find it amusing.

I dont know where you going that you run into them all time but it not like places your going require you to have a Centurion to enter. I personally I do not mind running into coked out versions of them exposing themself in public personally I find it amusing.

Its quite common to run into them quite often when going out in nyc they are always at places like butter, bungalo 8 etc.

So how will this effect Global Transfers (in)?

I dont know where you going that you run into them all time but it not like places your going require you to have a Centurion to enter. I personally I do not mind running into coked out versions of them exposing themself in public personally I find it amusing.

Agreed; it is my weekend amusement.

Additionally, another poster is 100% correct that the Centurion became infamous due to rap music and celebrity sightings. What better advertisement could a card have than "Yo, I like to call it my African AMERICAN EXPRESS CARD" in a song listened to by 100s of millions of individuals? Hell, if I were able to, I'd have rappers market my industry. . . Certain Park Ave. plastic surgeons obtain nearly 100% of their business from their socialite wives or daughters, which is along the same issue...

I do agree that it is fun watching Paris take her top off or Brittany showing her world....but really...how many of us are ever going to get to be at that table?

plus what "riff raff" can afford a 5k initiation fee and yearly fee of 2500...hell some posters want SPG AMEX to waive the $30 annual fee...

but still I would hate to say that "This card is used by Brittany/Lindsay during their coke filled, hair cutting sprees" but....it still has no value for me...or a lot of FT'ers on this board...as per their negative posts about cancelling after their year is over....

I would rather have the "riff raff" than the following:

Paris Hilton
Brittany Spears
Lindsay Lohan

at least the "riff raff" hardly ever travel intl and go anywhere where I go !!!

Nikki Hilton lives 2 doors down from me. She so far (1 year) has been a good and courteous neighbor. Only trouble we have is when she has her sister over, the paparazzi hang out on the street and I usually end up in a fight with them over blocking my drive way, driving dangerously down the street, blocking the street completely, leaving trash, etc. I hate these rodents.

if amex is inviting people to have a $1K annual fee, wouldnt that mean some of the charter members will remain there as well? or is the $1K instead of $5K for the initiation? in any case, very interesting to see them starting to do invites again.

Its quite common to run into them quite often when going out in nyc they are always at places like butter, bungalo 8 etc.

I think maybe you did not understand my comment. I see movie and music stars all the time at Mr.Chow and Spago's in Beverly Hills but last time I checked when I made a reservation they have never asked me if I have a Centurion Card or asked to see it when I walk in the door. I am sure if you say you dont have a Centurion card they still give you a reservation or if you cant show one at they door they dont kick you out either.

The fact stars have or dont have Centurion Cards is not going to affect were they go out for fun.

Celeb. sightings are very commonplace for me -- and I even hang out with some too. They're human beings (just as well all are) and whether they're "riff-raff" or not is up to the eye of the beholder. I choose to "party" and "hang" only with people who are of compliment to me (not because of fame). Heck, I went to Choate, Yale and Columbia Medical School with many a celebrity (or their children) and live in a building on a floor with many rappers, celebs, and moguls. Some are awful, drug abusing fools, while others are good people... It all depends...

... the Centurion became infamous due to rap music and celebrity sightings.
Yup- Jay-Z has probably brought AmEx interest (not to mention cachet) in Centurion no traditional marketing channel* could have.

What better advertisement could a card have than "Yo, I like to call it my African-AMERICAN EXPRESS CARD"?
... and like I'd mentioned before, I have to admit that for a picosecond I'd considered throwing all my personal+business spend onto my cards for the invite, 'cause that description would work with me perfectly. ;)


* - of course, I'm also cynical enough to consider may have been planned from the start

If it is true that all cardholders will begin to pay $2,500 and that new cardholders will pay $7,500 the first year, I take this to mean that American Express does indeed want to reduce the number of Centurion accounts. This might well enable them to provide a higher level of service and benefits because their partners would not dilute their own programs. Why would you find this "troubling"? It seems to be an attempt to deliver the original promise of Centurion.

Mia, it apparently is true, at least per the call I just made to AMEX (re: the heretofore grandfathered members going up to $2500; I did not ask about the fee otherwise). Looks like I have about 30 days to "justify" the value of the CENT at $2500. ok, done.

Not even close here. 99% certain I will not only downgrade to PLAT, I will go back to GOLD just to preserve my bank of MR points (if you cancel outright you lose the points). I do not perceive the value of PLAT to be much better than CENT...and CENT was only doable at $1000 since I was grandfathered. One possible caveat is if they announce some new perks...and since their 2007 package is already released, I doubt this will happen.

In effect, AMEX will lose most of my business and I will hang in the shawdows for the infrequent GOLD double MR point promotions and then get serious aabout using the card. Otherwise, seems AMEX and my profile don't align much anymore.

I do agree w/ your point above...the preverse outcome might be that, given this stiff increase, and somewhat-predictable abandonment by a respectable QTY of CENT cardholders...someday the program might have tangible value after all (higher fees supporting a smaller pool = better perk package...someday...unless AMEX decides to pocket all the extra profit and "let them eat cake" as they have done for so long). But my problem is depending on AMEX has never been my strength and I won't pay them $2500 a year while AMEX tries to get their act together. As long as they believe their product to be in such demand than people will pay these surreal annual fees, then we have the blind (AMEX) leading the clueless (those with more money than common sense, who would and will pay these annual fees with such weak perk packages).

Not even close here. 99% certain I will not only downgrade to PLAT, I will go back to GOLD just to preserve my bank of MR points (if you cancel outright you lose the points). I do not perceive the value of PLAT to be much better than CENT.......As long as they believe their product to be in such demand than people will pay these surreal annual fees, then we have the blind (AMEX) leading the clueless (those with more money than common sense, who would and will pay these annual fees with such weak perk packages).I concur, and this sounds like a very good plan!

When the Platinum "security team", based in India, no less, declined a simple Jet Airways (9w, also an Indian Airline) economy ticket, and told me that they were the only ones I could talk to, in order to reactivate my card, I said "no way!", and told them to go fly a kite...(this was after 3 attempts, after which, I demanded that I speak to a US citizen, in America!)

Doing business in India makes you very aware of what happens over here, so I would not want my personal information "out there" (although it might be already - thanks AmEx!)...

also new spend requirements

now min spend is 350k for personal and 450k for business she said its trying to make it far more exclusive.

It seems like the bump tp $2500 for grandfathered has been confirmed by several people. Has anyone heard this (above) from a second CSR?

I haven't really thought through the implications of this idea, but I'll throw it out raw.

In the Other Credit Cards section there is ongoing discussion about the anticipated relaunch of Citibank's Chairman card...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649341

...which was originally a Mastercard positioned to compete with American Express Platinum, annual fee $400. The new card will apparently be an American Express network product with an annual fee around $1,000.

American Express would know this because they must have been involved in designing the new Chairman product with Citi. It could be that the decision to raise the annual fee for charter Centurion members is based on the assumption that a number of those who were willing to pay $1,000, but not $2,500, would migrate to the new Chairman and American Express would retain a share of their charge volume.

Considering people have been invited to join at $1K a year recently and OP stated fee's would not be increased for grandfather people and only 1 person was able told fee would increase for grandfather accounts.

That is 50/50 chance at best unless other people have been able to confirm either one of the posts. I know when I called up this morning and asked I was told that there had been offical no changes made to fee's charged to Centurion but there is a change I will be giving notice.

If I were a Centurion cardholder I certainly would not act on the basis of verbal information, but two posters have reported that the $2,500 fee will apply to all cardholders on renewal, sct4a and ILUVCITIBANK. I read the message reporting the recent $1,000 invitation to refer to the amount of the initiation fee, not the recurring annual fee.

Considering people have been invited to join at $1K a year recently and OP stated fee's would not be increased for grandfather people and only 1 person was able told fee would increase for grandfather accounts.

That is 50/50 chance at best unless other people have been able to confirm either one of the posts. I know when I called up this morning and asked I was told that there had been offical no changes made to fee's charged to Centurion but there is a change I will be giving notice.

2 People have reported it.

I concur, and this sounds like a very good plan!

When the Platinum "security team", based in India, no less, declined a simple Jet Airways (9w, also an Indian Airline) economy ticket, and told me that they were the only ones I could talk to, in order to reactivate my card, I said "no way!", and told them to go fly a kite...(this was after 3 attempts, after which, I demanded that I speak to a US citizen, in America!)

Doing business in India makes you very aware of what happens over here, so I would not want my personal information "out there" (although it might be already - thanks AmEx!)...


Kinda of like the sme thing happened to me...except the "PLAT security team" forgot to call about fradualent charges and just outright cancelled my card...except no one told me...

I fly off to Brazil and check into the hotel...they run the authorization....CANCELLED CARD

So, here I am in front of the check out counter with very few $ and even less BR$....luckily I had my CITI AA Personal Card which accepted all the charges and I got reimbursed back from my company....

But the point is that AMEX dropped the ball....after that all my business went to CITI....

I just spoke with a few people in Concierge and Customer Service. They all confirmed the fee raise for "grandfathers", effective May 1. If your renewal date is before May 1, you will still pay the old fee for another year.

Nobody would confirm the minimum spend raise, so I doubt that is true.
One of them specifically stated that the minimum spend is still $250,000, and if it changes that they would send existing cardholders a letter (although I don't know why it would be of interest to existing cardholders. I've never heard of it being enforced for them).

[QUOTE=aviators99;7344271]I just spoke with a few people in Concierge and Customer Service. They all confirmed the fee raise for "grandfathers", effective May 1. If your renewal date is before May 1, you will still pay the old fee for another year.

LOL what happens if your renewal date is may 1st like me?

aviators, thanks for this clarification...I called back and you're right...in my case, my renewal date is April, so I should be grandfathered one more year.

After that - reflection time. AMEX has a year (for me) to get their perk package spruced up.

Amex doesn't actually keep your business if you switch to the Citi Chariman card. While it's true some Citi cards are on the Amex charge network, and Amex does get some benefit from your use of the card, there's an additional benefit in being the issuer of the card. Citi would gain that benefit - not Amex.

FWIW: Got a letter today from Ken Chenault describing the "Exciting New Benefits" as well as "New Fees" (this is for a personal Centurion):

"First, because it is important to keep Centurion membership exclusive, beginning in May, all new Centurion members will be assessed a one-time initiaiton fee of $5,000. As a current Centurion member, you will not have to pay this fee.

Second, as you may be aware, we raised the Centurion annual fee to $2,500 in 2002. At that time, we did not increase your fee. We will now be bringing your annual fee up to $2,500 in order to maintain the exclusive benefits offered to you through Centurion membership. The annual fee for each Additional Centurion Card will be $1,500. These rates will be effective at membership renewal on or after May 1, 2007."

Yep, it's official.

Renewals on or after May 1 2007 - $1000 goes to $2500 and add'l card goes to $1500 for a total of $4,000 a year.

I particulary like the "in order to maintain exclusive benefits" and "It's important to keep membership exclusive." parts of the letter!

Yep, it's official.

Renewals on or after May 1 2007 - $1000 goes to $2500 and add'l card goes to $1500 for a total of $4,000 a year.

I particulary like the "in order to maintain exclusive benefits" and "It's important to keep membership exclusive." parts of the letter!

Well this change ought to thin some out, .... let the whining begin!

Wow, that letter makes it real. I suppose I should just consider myself lucky for having enjoyed the $1k/year plus $500/additional for the last 6 or so years, I suppose my current net savings is about $15k:

($4k/year * 6 years = $24k) - ($1.5k * 6 = $9k) = $15k

$15k / $4k = 3.75 years

Guess that gives me almost 4 years until I'm net with everyone that started at $2.5k and $1500 for the additional.

The more I thought about it, the more I think it is true that the $5k friendship fee is just to root out the guys that just charge huge amounts of employer expenses to qualify for the card. I'll bet that all the annual spend requirements will stay in place.

Wow, that letter makes it real. I suppose I should just consider myself lucky for having enjoyed the $1k/year plus $500/additional for the last 6 or so years, I suppose my current net savings is about $15k:

($4k/year * 6 years = $24k) - ($1.5k * 6 = $9k) = $15k

$15k / $4k = 3.75 years

Guess that gives me almost 4 years until I'm net with everyone that started at $2.5k and $1500 for the additional.

The more I thought about it, the more I think it is true that the $5k friendship fee is just to root out the guys that just charge huge amounts of employer expenses to qualify for the card. I'll bet that all the annual spend requirements will stay in place.

DMSFCA, what are the big chunks of savings for you that justify the card ? I have had it a couple of years, and definitely paid for it when starwood PLAT was attached. Now, I look over the included benefits and I don't see the value as clearly (and I am grandfathered in at the lowly $1K). IMO, AMEX CENT "losing" SPG PLAT and HYATT DIAMOND says as much "negatively" about AMEX's ability to hold strategic partners as anything else. Thus, on many levels, for AMEX to raise the annual fee is counter-intuitive to me.

Therefore, though this is WAAAAY EARLY, I wonder if this one might really blow up in AMEX's face.

OTOH - the cynical me says they will get preverse benefit by becoming even "hotter" as the rappers and entertainers play on the "buzz" of an otherwise anemic credit card (especially so at new annual fees) just because of the exclusivity of it all (because of the higher annual fee).

SO, is AMEX sly like the fox and knows the perk package is getting weaker and weaker...but could really care less because they sense they can sell the "buzz" and exclusitivity, raise the rates even higher, and ultimately NET MORE PROFIT ? I'm starting to wonder if this is what's going on in their mind.

After all, the (new cardholder) hollywood elite and wall street (charge the expense account) types really would have no basis to know what perks used to be w/ this card, so the "greater fool theory" would apply, perfectly, in this scenario. All they (these newcomers who ante-d up for the higher fees) would be buying was the would-be prestige and exclusivity ? Gosh, on this theory AMEX could raise the annual fee annually even further and keep driving it to more and more extreme...and the preverse effect of buzz might make it even more desireable to a select few. Why stop at $5K per year ?

IMHO for cent in the US, its a case of either using the hotel benefits or not... nothing else comes close in terms of added value.

with plat MR you can get E0 awards (great value, exclusive) and event tickets (exclusive, values getting better, but not great)

Three questions.....

do the "rappers and stars" pay their own bills? Do they even see them? Or does it get delivered to their financial manager who just shakes his head and writes a check?

Big difference between us and them....so the benefits must justify the fee....

plenty of people on FT spend on business accounts.

isn't it the consensus that you CAN write off the annual fee?

almost no celebrity stars have business accounts. they dont need to gain business. their AGENTS have business accounts.

i would pay $5K initiation fee no problem. $10K probably fine. $15K starting to push it. $20K no way in hell, unless they have insane benefits.

not sure what annual fee i would pay, but $2500 would be fine.

DMSFCA, what are the big chunks of savings for you that justify the card ? I have had it a couple of years, and definitely paid for it when starwood PLAT was attached. Now, I look over the included benefits and I don't see the value as clearly (and I am grandfathered in at the lowly $1K).

My travel seems to go in waves, and I can't seem to keep status with anyone for any length of time, so for me Delta was the biggie - I've been upgraded on 18 out of the last 22 flight segments I've flown, which always made the annual fee worth it.

I also stay at a lot of Westin properties so I appreciated the late check-out that the Plat SPG gave, but out of all my stays I've only been upgraded maybe once in that whole time, but I usually end up staying at "W" hotels, often in NYC, so I think that those upgrades are harder to get, or maybe I'm being upgraded unknowingly and the standard rooms are especially lame.

So, $1k was well worth it to me even just for the Delta upgrades, $2500 would be a bigger pill to swallow, and other than a few times in Priority Pass lounges, I don't think there are any any real offered benefits beyond the other Amex cards that are of personal value, and the pure "status" of the card or having attention called to it when I use it just embarrasses me, so not much social value-add.


--Doug

I got the same letter today also. So I guess they are raising the fees on everyone to $2.5K a year.. Oh well not sure what to do now.. Letter states people who annual fee renew on or after May 1 2007... Sucks my Annual fee always renewed on May 1 2007. I have a felling everyone invited to join orginally annual fee renews on May 1 2007 as the card I think was mailed to people on May 1998.

Do the "rappers and stars" pay their own bills? Do they even see them? Or does it get delivered to their financial manager who just shakes his head and writes a check?
Only the last one is true, if "Entourage" is to be believed. :)

I think y'all are right- AmEx is trying to redefine Cent as a "Status" card, and a large annual fee that is greater than the returned value (i.e., not like the $1K Cent) will do just that.

(Perhaps Cent was a money-loser for AmEx after all? Consider this- suppose me and my friends dumped everything we did onto another's AmEx, got the invite, then maxed-out all the benefits across our PU/AU cards (at perhaps far less than the initial annual spend) and pooling to share the annual fees to have Cent for life, on the cheap (when amortized over several years?))

Not sure what the $5k initiation fee is really meant to do? I definitely don't want to see them lower the minimum spending. You will end up getting a larger user base leading to more decreased benefits. I would rather see them raise the minimum spending limit and increase the benefits. The next thing that will happen is people will be taking out 5K loans to finance their new black card so they can impress their friends.

the card I think was mailed to people on May 1998.



Centurion definitely launched in 1999, and I'm pretty sure it was October.

So how will this effect Global Transfers (in)?

Argh! No more Global Transfers in allowed to Cent at all! This is really really bad.

{SNIP}
Therefore, though this is WAAAAY EARLY, I wonder if this one might really blow up in AMEX's face.
{SNIP}


But how would it "blow up"? They would lose Centurion members? I don't think that's a real fear of theirs, do you?

Do you really think that droves of Centurion $1k members will drop Amex outright, as opposed to moving to Platinum?

Even if so (which I doubt), I think the more important question they ask themselves is about people choosing between Amex and other brands for a new card choice. Will they choose one of the other brands just because there isn't a reasonably priced ultra-status offering from Amex? There isn't anything comparable anywhere else, so there is no compelling reason to rule out Amex. These people will most likely choose Amex Platinum; at least until if and when the Chairman Card becomes available, and since we don't know what benefits that will have, Amex Platinum might still be better.

As a lowly platinum cardholder who finally met the $150K annual spend threshold just as they increased it to $250K, I'm glad to see the "grandfathering" go away. This is going to do far, FAR more to winnow out the riff-raff, IMHO.

To boil it right down, if you have to do any kind of cost-benefit analysis to decide whether or not the annual fee is worth it, you're probably not the kind of cardholder AmEx wants to have a Centurion. And raising this fee, causing (hopefully, I suspect they feel) droves of people to drop their black cards, is absolutely the intended effect.

Raising fees and cutting benefits ^^

theyre not raising the fee for anyone who is currently paying $2500..

theyre not raising the fee for anyone who is currently paying $2500..
Like I said, raising fees and cutting benefits ^^

interesting question, how many of each are there (charter and newer) ?

many charters may not drop the card in fear it may cost too much to get back in later.

To boil it right down, if you have to do any kind of cost-benefit analysis to decide whether or not the annual fee is worth it, you're probably not the kind of cardholder AmEx wants to have a Centurion. And .

Judging from Cent magazine, you're probably correct about Amex's ideal Cent holder, but in reality, I believe most Cent holders carefully weigh the benefits. Nobody likes to throw money away and most people I know who have a Cent card keep it for the benes (and use their Starwood cards!)

Judging from Cent magazine, you're probably correct about Amex's ideal Cent holder, but in reality, I believe most Cent holders carefully weigh the benefits. Nobody likes to throw money away and most people I know who have a Cent card keep it for the benes (and use their Starwood cards!)

I have 5 other friends who are Cent holders, and none of them (other than I) weigh the benefits at all. In fact, I have been their source of information as to what the benefits really are. Even before I got my card last year, I was telling them stuff they didn't know, from my readings on FT.

All of them are charter ($1k) members, so It'll be interesting to see what they decide.

so i wonder if the 250k requirment is going to be waved if your willing to pay the 5k? Anyone that can confirm this?

not going to happen. if anything they will raise it..

Amex doesn't actually keep your business if you switch to the Citi Chariman card.

That's not the way American Express sees it...

Citi just hired Gary Crittenden from American Express. Mr Crittenden headed "Global Network Services the American Express business unit that manages the relationships we have with card-issuing business Partners around the world".

Why is American Express allowing banks and other institutions to issue cards on its Network?

We have decided to do this in order to accelerate growth in our Network's market share and profits and to build a sustainable, long-term position as the best payments system in the world. Banks that issue on our Network are able to provide customers with a wider range of innovative card offerings under a global brand.

How does American Express make money in this new business?

In a number of ways. We benefit from the additional volume on the Network which, among other things, leads to additional discount revenue. Also, we derive income from certain fees paid to us by issuers and we sell value-added issuer services. The Partner benefits as well because, among other things, American Express pays them an issuer's rate that is a percentage of the transaction volume generated by the cards.

Will Network cards cannibalize American Express' proprietary business?

There may be some minor erosion of our proprietary business since Network cards will compete against our proprietary products in some local markets. However, from an American Express perspective, it is better to grow overall volume on our Network than to lose out to our competitors. Both the proprietary and Network businesses are critical to American Express, and we are committed to growing both.

http://www10.americanexpress.com/sif/cda/page/0,1641,2553,00.asp?

Not sure what the $5k initiation fee is really meant to do? I definitely don't want to see them lower the minimum spending. You will end up getting a larger user base .....

I think you're wrong here. Since most Cents I know in the UK got it through putting company expenditure on business trips through their personal Amex card, a $5k fee would actually IMPROVE the quality of membership, with fewer, richer members.

Those people who only earn $200k but charge $200k per year of business expenses would be out, since they would never pony up the $5k. And, in theory, people like me who are better off but are relatively low key in their spending (and do not have massive reclaimable business expenses) could buy in.

Argh! No more Global Transfers in allowed to Cent at all! This is really really bad.

Really bad as I move from the UK to the US in a couple of months. Is this definite?:(

I think you're wrong here. Since most Cents I know in the UK got it through putting company expenditure on business trips through their personal Amex card, a $5k fee would actually IMPROVE the quality of membership, with fewer, richer members.

Those people who only earn $200k but charge $200k per year of business expenses would be out, since they would never pony up the $5k. And, in theory, people like me who are better off but are relatively low key in their spending (and do not have massive reclaimable business expenses) could buy in.

You are correct that the $5k fee will lessen the number of members, but any change in the minimum will also necessarily have a corresponding impact to this number. It's unclear to me at what point (mathematically) the minimum spend has to be lowered to in order match the number lost by adding the fee, but I feel it's greater than $0. If it were $0, businesses might even spend the $5k as a perk to employees, just like some spend $400-$500 for airline clubs.

Is there any confirmation that the spending requirements will remain $250K or will they raise it?

only one person so far has given numbers for it being raised.

Argh! No more Global Transfers in allowed to Cent at all! This is really really bad.

Really?
Why?
Could you tell me abou that?

thanks,
masahiro

Really bad as I move from the UK to the US in a couple of months. Is this definite?:(

Yup.

Really?
Why?
Could you tell me abou that?

thanks,
masahiro

Luckily it doesn't effect me, or so it seems. I Global Transferred In last year from UK Cent to US Cent and cancelled the US account because I didn't need it. Assuming I would have to do the same again, I first mentioned it to Centurion who said that as of a few months ago you can only GTI to Plat or below, then have to maintain that card for 12 months and meet the spending requirements. That sounded like a load of crap, so I called the Global Transfer people, pretending not to know it, and they confirmed it!

is it only trasferring to US CENT that is no longer permitted?

is it only trasferring to US CENT that is no longer permitted?

Interesting question, I was wondering the same thing myself.

...people who only earn $200k...

"only" $200k ? We should hold a collection for these poor people ! ;) :D

his point is valid though, id rather wait longer for my spending to get there, if it means they can increase benefits, or that things like upgrades will be more available, because there are less cardholders.

I think you're wrong here. Since most Cents I know in the UK got it through putting company expenditure on business trips through their personal Amex card, a $5k fee would actually IMPROVE the quality of membership, with fewer, richer members.

Those people who only earn $200k but charge $200k per year of business expenses would be out, since they would never pony up the $5k. And, in theory, people like me who are better off but are relatively low key in their spending (and do not have massive reclaimable business expenses) could buy in.

I think your way off base here, most people spend well beyond their means already, I think the guy with the $250K a year expense account is a far smaller share then people who would be willing to pony up $5K to impress their friends.

If I honestly believed by deterring membership we would see some increased benefit then I would be all for charging the $5K AND increasing the spending minimum. Unfortunately, as many have already said, benefits will continue to get diluted and fees will increase. The key is when does the cost outweigh the benefits? I suspect AMEX will keep testing the waters and push it as far as they can. We all saw what happened with the Platinum card.

One variable no one seems to be debating is what of the PROFIT from the interchange fee that AMEX makes off the $200K-$300K spend or more (that will presumably go away by the cardholders who push through business expense, but would never spend $5K annual fee just to hold the card for the minimal perks this card currently offers)...after all, since AMEX CHARGE cards theoretically do not allow carryover balances (and thus have interest earnings), these stiff interchange fees AMEX charges PLUS the annual fee makeup the bulk of profits for AMEX's CHARGE CARD accounts. (DISCLAIMER: Once one qualifies for the card, there is no threshold requirement of spend per year...gosh, who wants to keep accumulating anemic MR points, after all ???).

AMEX may have a Yosimite Sam "blow up" here, where they shoot their foot to spite their face.

I am one of the "charters" you guys speak of...no, I absolutely would not spend $5K or even $2500 next year, to renew a card of such questionable and minimal perks. It was questionable at $1000/yr for me. BUT - if I drop the card, I will go one step further and essentially stop accumulating AMEX MR points and drop back not only to the PLAT but will likely go back to the GOLD and just nest there and not use the card...and divert my SPEND to cash backs (which is now strategically where I am heading, after AMEX/SPG blew a hole in their program Feb1 this year).

So, AMEX may think a large percentage of those "ousted" out of the CENT program will merely roll-back to PLAT to keep paying the $450+ annual fees (and as importantly - keep up the annual spend)....but I have a sneaking suspicion they may see more fallout than this...and that ousted CENT cardholders may drop AMEX altogether, or perhaps do like I do and conclude the PERKS aren't there, or MR is such a weak and anemic program...and go back to gold and essentially avoid the AMEX CHARGE card product line entirely.

As said before, I am really warming up to the concept of a 2% cash-back card focus now...and have already diverted a significant amount of SPEND in Feb to my two SAMS CLUB 2% Cash-Back Discover cards and away from AMEX/SPG and away from AMEX/CENT.

Bottom line - can AMEX off-set not only the loss of the annual fee from so-called "ousted" cardholders, BUT ALSO THE LOSS OF ANNUAL SPEND and the profit derived from this spend. if AMEX thinks they can oust a chunk of CENT cardholders without any repurcussion...and still make their profit goals on the annual fee bumps from celebrities and wealthy to whom $5K doesn't make a difference to (and I have a sneaking suspicion may not have annual SPEND profile that the business customers might have brought to AMEX)....hmm...interesting debates to come.

We'll see how this deploys.

...and that ousted CENT cardholders may drop AMEX altogether...

I assume this is the reason American Express left charter members at $1,000 rather than apply the $2,500 fee previously. It seems safe to further assume they have now factored this risk into the decision to apply the fee to everyone. It will be interesting to see if they offer concessions to retain cancelling cardholders, and if there is a correlation between annual spend and the concession.

Why downgrade to Gold rather than Green?

only $20 more for gold, right?

and if you have multiple cards, the $150 gold is cheaper than green still, isn't it?

only $20 more...


If I were not intending to use the card, just need it (for example) to hold onto accumulated Membership Rewards points, and wanted to send a message to American Express management I would choose the least expensive product, then wait for an offer to "upgrade".

One variable no one seems to be debating is what of the PROFIT from the interchange fee that AMEX makes off the $200K-$300K spend or more (that will presumably go away by the cardholders who push through business expense, but would never spend $5K annual fee just to hold the card for the minimal perks this card currently offers)...after all, since AMEX CHARGE cards theoretically do not allow carryover balances (and thus have interest earnings), these stiff interchange fees AMEX charges PLUS the annual fee makeup the bulk of profits for AMEX's CHARGE CARD accounts. (DISCLAIMER: Once one qualifies for the card, there is no threshold requirement of spend per year...gosh, who wants to keep accumulating anemic MR points, after all ???).

AMEX may have a Yosimite Sam "blow up" here, where they shoot their foot to spite their face.

I am one of the "charters" you guys speak of...no, I absolutely would not spend $5 or even $2500 next year, to renew a card of such questionable and minimal perks. It was questionable at $1000/yr for me. BUT - if I drop the card, I will go one step further and essentially stop accumulating AMEX MR points and drop back not only to the PLAT but will likely go back to the GOLD and just nest there and not use the card...and divert my SPEND to cash backs (which is now strategically where I am heading, after AMEX/SPG blew a hole in their program Feb1 this year).

So, AMEX may think a large percentage of those "ousted" out of the CENT program will merely roll-back to PLAT to keep paying the $450+ annual fees (and as importantly - keep up the annual spend)....but I have a sneaking suspicion they may see more fallout than this...and that ousted CENT cardholders may drop AMEX altogether, or perhaps do like I do and conclude the PERKS aren't there, or MR is such a weak and anemic program...and go back to gold and essentially avoid the AMEX CHARGE card product line entirely.

As said before, I am really warming up to the concept of a 2% cash-back card focus now...and have already diverted a significant amount of SPEND in Feb to my two SAMS CLUB 2% Cash-Back Discover cards and away from AMEX/SPG and away from AMEX/CENT.

Bottom line - can AMEX off-set not only the loss of the annual fee from so-called "ousted" cardholders, BUT ALSO THE LOSS OF ANNUAL SPEND and the profit derived from this spend. if AMEX thinks they can oust a chunk of CENT cardholders without any repurcussion...and still make their profit goals on the annual fee bumps from celebrities and wealthy to whom $5K doesn't make a difference to (and I have a sneaking suspicion may not have annual SPEND profile that the business customers might have brought to AMEX)....hmm...interesting debates to come.

We'll see how this deploys.

Look,

They've thought all of this through and they will be fine. If you really think that even losing *all* of the Centurion members down to Gold would be noticed on their annual report or have an effect on their reported profits, you're nuts.

I've read through all of your posts over the last year and a half, and every one on this forum has been talking about how horrible Amex is. I can't understand why you would even pay $1,000 per year???

In this post:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5529497&postcount=124

you even foresee this day coming, and promise an "immediate" demotion to Gold.

It will be interesting to see if they offer concessions to retain cancelling cardholders
No concessions are being offered.

http://www.elite-traveler.com/pp.ppt
this Elite Traveler Survey is pretty relevant IMHO >

67% of survey group are regular readers with net worth >$10MM
(approximately 436,000)

statistics on these 436,000 readers =
Median HHI $1.7M
Average HHI $5.3M
Median Net Worth $46M
Average Net Worth $197M

impact of hurricanes on spending of readers with net worths between $10M and $20M in October 2005 >

postpone leisure trips for rest of year - 2.8%
delay large / discretionary purchases such as cars or houses - 2.5%
reconsider luxury purchases such as jewelry and fashion - 1.9%
travel less because of oil / gas prices - 0%
become more price sensitive - 0%

notice only 3 of 5 categories were impacted, between 1.9% (<8,284 people) and 2.8% (<12,208 people)

for readers with net worth of over $20M, it was 0% for every category.

It will be interesting to see if they offer concessions to retain cancelling cardholdersNo concessions are being offered. anyone who cancels they dont particularly care about.. (someone who cares about $1500/yr)

(about 94% of those 436,000 people spent on luxury hotels/resorts/spas in july/aug 05, and of them, they averaged about $150K in that 2 month period. iluvcitibank's point about losing the spending simply makes it clear that the fees are not for profit, they are to limit the number of cardholders. with that many people spending $75K/month on HOTELS, someone who spends $75K/yr on everything REALLY doesnt matter to them. yes, not all of these people use amex, but think about the numbers were talking about. a very large number must certainly use amex cards. especially because there are so few cards that really target such demographic groups.)

Mia, you are right...I would go to GREEN if things progress as it appears they will. I don't see much value for the PLAT package, and therefore would drop to the lowest denominator that keeps my MR account open and my longevity, FWIW, w/ AMEX.

Aviators, I am impressed in your back-research. Though I owe you no justification for my decision, I can say that AMEX has moved forward, albeit *slightly*, to offer new/exclusive innovative perks for CENT cardholders, so I am now weighing the value of those perks (feel free to chase down the link; I don't have time to locate it for you). Further, my bundled SPG PLAT via the CENT program just ended last month, AND my CENT renewal is in Mar/Apr, so I have not even come to the decision point on this.

MOVING FORWARD TO CURRENT CONSIDERATIONS: Is the CENT, grandfathered at $1000, sans SPG/PLAT, now worth it, given these exclusive new perks ? Not so sure, but I *can* tell you the double MR points from last NOV/Jan for CENT cardholders (at least I got in on it - not how sure the wtarget was) *was indeed* worth sticking around for CENT. Especially since since my annual fee was still paid up. SO, each and every month from now through April of 2008 I will be watching the CENT program and weighing the value(s). Maybe AMEX will reconsider from May1st through next APril, who knows ? If you then dig up an old post (March '06) as if it is written in stone and offer it as an out-of-context post to counter some point I make in the future (a full year later BTW), as some sort of defense or debate point...well, that's your choice.

But, as for me, when you take things out of context, or aren't privy to new "rules and considerations" I am trying to factor in, to go dig up old postings...well, its not becoming such a sophisticated poster as yourself.

Please stick to the debate at hand. Things change...rarely for the better, but double MR points has a way to making me be more patient. I could justify the CENT fees, even at higher prices, if I could have a go at a 3-MO DOUBLE MILES promo each year. But who would expect this from AMEX ? That double MR points prom was the *first* I have ever seen for the CENT program, so it was novel and refreshing (and, BTW, I owe this very AME folder and certain posters for discussing the promo) :)

IMHO he seemed to be simply questioning the validity of your overall argument.

my posting of the Elite Travler survey is meant to do the same thing, simply present additional/other information and my opinion of it.

Kagehitokiri,
he, unless I completely misunderstood his point, was trying to challenge the fact that I, a full year ago, discussed my actions were AMEX/CENT to drop SPG/PLAT. its out of context at this point, and really off-target, because numerous things have changed....namely there was a substantal promotion fall, 2006, which I of course did not know about in Mar, 2006...and AMEX/CENT has now announced some exclusive perks which I am just now learning about and trying to determine value to/for me.

As for your elite travel survey, I tend to AGREE w/ you that the annual fee DOES SEEM to be some sort of throttle AMEX is implementing to ensure exclusivity. But what you don't respond to is my guess that, when "x" CENT members are ousted...they may just go way entirely...and not drop back to the $400-$450 PLAT AND CONTINUE TO BRING THE ANNUAL SPEND TO AMEX that I think AMEX is [smugly] relying on. While you might have isolated a higher-spending VERTICAL PROFILE that my profile, or someone else's profile, per se, I can bet Mr. Chenault would not be understanding to walk away from any of the profile groupings in the CENT program if he knew CENT's actions alienated any of these profiles to 100% walk away from AMEX.

As for the poster (avators99) a few back who reminded me (correctly) that AMEX won't feel any hint of problem from my spend going away...I also agree...but let's face it, none of us know the absolutes in this business...we all speculate and conjecture how these events impact us and impact them (AMEX, Citibank, or whomever). But, I think most of us agree we're the thought and opinion leaders among our peer groups, and if I tell my friends, family, and business associates that AMEX's MR is anemic...and that there is little difference between PLAT or GOLD and GREEN, and why even bother keeping a GREEN card...I have a feeling I can make convincing arguments. I have already toned down my once-strong support for the AMEX/SPG card, so now I don't advocate that card any longer...and over time this will cost AMEX 7 figure accounts that haven't even happened yet. So would AMEX know I am not advocating the spg/AMEX card ? Doubtful. But will they look at their book of business for 2007 and KNOW ABSOLUTELY that *something* happened in the spg program to really douse water on the overall SPEND year over year. Oh yeah. I would bet AMEX/SPG managers already know something just rocked their numbers for Feb.

Therefore its the "EXTRAPOLATION" that we all intuitively believe happens...if they kick *me*, or *you* out of program "x" or "y", then we react a certain way...and there us a huge silent majoroty that may act the same way.

P.S. Enough fun for today; gotta get some work done.

i guess i just go back to 410,000 people spending an average of $75K/month on hotels in both july and august..

1 person spending $1M/yr = 10 people spending $100K/yr

and dont forget about corporate cards either..

example = microsoft employees spent $210M/yr on T&E (on amex cards) back in 2001/2002 time frame.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:F3ekdvnlyLYJ:www.microsoft.com/technet/itshowcase/content/msexptcs.mspx+american+express+corporate+card+mill ion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us&client=safari

and according to that page, amex saved them $5.3 million.

some concierge comparison >

personal concierge international - 125 clients - $4K/yr fee (low fee, because theyre so selective)

preferred group - 30 clients with net worth > $100M - $24K/yr fee (because their clients are that wealthy)

JD corporate concierge - $50K/yr fee (because they have no client requirements)

Indeed, the main point of my posting was to question the validity of the statement that this decision by Amex could come back to haunt them.

And I was legitimately curious as to why you've continued to pay $1k per year when you have more complaints than anyone I've seen.

Amex has always been pretty savvy with their credit card operations.

Last year, the Company's 2006 consolidated income from continuing operations rose 18 percent to $876 million.

It will be interesting to see the numbers for 07. It won't surprise me if they increase again.

huh?

http://ir.americanexpress.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=64467&p=irol-reportsAnnual
http://www.ezonlinedocument.com/amex/2006/ar/amex_ar05.pdf
2005 - CONSOLIDATED HIGHLIGHTS
American Express Company
(Millions, except per share amounts and employees) 2005 2004 % Inc/(Dec)
Revenues $ 24,267 $ 21,964 10%
Income from continuing operations $ 3,221 $ 2,686 20%
Income from discontinued operations $ 513 $ 830 (38)%
Net income $ 3,734 $ 3,445 8%

I believe he was referring to 2006 numbers (not the 2005/2004 numbers you posted). That said, I can't find his numbers. I see income from continuing ops up 16% to $3.7 billion.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/4962/000095012307003020/y30921e10vk.htm

Since Amex keeps saying there are around 10,000 Centuions worldwide, I'm going to guess that there are around 10,000 grandfathered Centurions in the U.S. to be conservative. If they were to lose all of them, they will lose $10MM in annual fees. If they were to lose half of them, and the other half start paying $2,500, they make additional revenue of $2.5MM per year in annual fees.

delete me

Yep...I've seen that. But I'm pretty sure there are less than 10,000 grandfathered US cardholders, aren't you?

To put these numbers in perspective, American Express issued roughly 7 million new cards in 2006 .

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/american-express-net-income-climbs/story.aspx?guid=%7B0C236FD7-56A0-4390-8CEF-851EECEF9783%7D

Yep...I've seen that. But I'm pretty sure there are less than 10,000 grandfathered US cardholders, aren't you?

10K seems low

10K seems low

What percentage of Centurion cardholders do you think are grandfathered?

i think the real question is this information online anywhere?

i think the real question is this information online anywhere?


I don't think so. Amex doesn't want the number out there. They were quoted (rather coyly) once comparing the number of Cent holders to the number of Maybach owners, but I doubt that's accurate.



And for the record (other poster) I'm a she :)

It's not published anywhere that I've been able to find, and I've been looking for a long time. In any case, I think the way the math works out, as long as they retain 1/3 of the grandfathered Centurions, they break even. If they keep more than 1/3, they make more money.

I called centurion today and they said if I pay the initiation fee and the 2500 annual that I would get the card. My spend is less than 50k . The only benefit I want is the 3 year extra warranty on products. Is the us black small biz card increasing prices too?

I doubt they got rid of global transfers for black card holders.

I called centurion today and they said if I pay the initiation fee and the 2500 annual that I would get the card. My spend is less than 50k . The only benefit I want is the 3 year extra warranty on products. Is the us black small biz card increasing prices too?

i just called cent cs and they are def not getting rid of spend requirement she again confirmed spend requirement is def being raised.

aviators99, what do you think of my argument here >
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7359359&postcount=119

they are definitely not getting rid of the spend requirement, if anything it will go up, they WANT people to CANCEL.

im continually updating my post with the circulation numbers as i find more.

aviators99, what do you think of my argument here >
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7359359&postcount=119

they are definitely not getting rid of the spend requirement, if anything it will go up, they WANT people to CANCEL.

im continually updating my post with the circulation numbers as i find more.

Good points. I sure hope you're right and they don't drop the spend requirement. I know tons of people who would just pay to get the card, and benefits would get dilluted even more.

i just finished updating the circulation numbers

i just finished updating the circulation numbers

It's strange that the HHI for UK Centurion holders would be so much higher than the US, considering the spend requirements are so much less in the UK.

for UK, my understanding was always that they invited too many people.

that says a lot when the average is still that high. must be every major finance exec or something :p

OTOH its not double, like it might seem, because GBP earners earn more than someone earning in $ (the equivalent)

I just go back to 410,000 people spending an average of $75K/month on hotels in both july and august
These numbers boggle my mind. I mean, this is sixty billion dollars in two months- can this be right, even worldwide?

go check it out yourself. Elite Traveler has 426K REGULAR readers with net worth OVER $10M. there is a bunch of research and press articles with some extremely interesting statistics and information.

somewhere i read, whether it was on the Elite Traveler site or elsewhere, a good summary of this situation: someone who buys a $5K watch doesnt buy another for 5 years. someone who buys a $500K watch buys several a year.

i will hopefully find out the number of US centurion cardholders today.

article on front page of WAPO today about London finance guys making huge bucks because of "15 years of uninterrupted growth in British economy", ill try and summarize the numbers >

-estimated £8B in bonuses paid in recent weeks
-more than 4200 people received bonuses > £1M
-one 25 year old futures trader made £700K in one hour last year

recent examples of spending include
-£18K for cocktails at Pangaea
-penthouses @ One Hyde Park (MO residences) £20M-£74M :eek:

(most expensive estate in the world = £75M = updown court, includes 3 acres of most expensive marble in world, and 1 acre of interior floor space in main building)

-last month Christie's set a weekly record with £200M in sales, while the same week Sotheby's sold £182M, to large numbers of first time buyers

demographics
-1M people in Britain with liquid assets > £200K, up from 690,000 in 2003

so that helps explain why the average HHI is higher for centurion in UK

This article was in the Wall Street Journal a while back. According to Mark Shore "an Amex veteran" there were 15K Cent holders when he left the company (prior to 4/04) Who knows how many have been added since then?


April 6, 2004 Dow Jones WebReprint Service®

The Black Card Gets a Challenger
New Offering Touts Ability To Earn Trips on Private Jets,
But Will Big Spenders Bite?
By RON LIEBER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

When it comes to credit cards, white may be the new black.

In a shot across the bow of American Express's ultra-exclusive Black Card, an upstart company called Stratus Rewards is issuing a new white-plastic Visa card this month. It dispenses with mundane rewards like frequent-flier miles. Instead, it offers points that users can redeem for free hours on a private jet. Then, at the end of the flight, you can also take a private tour of the Louvre or the Pyramids in Egypt.

Of course, all this involves parting with piles of money. Cardholders will have to spend $195,000 to earn the points necessary to book a seven-seat Cessna jet for an hour; the private tours will require spending hundreds of thousands of dollars more. There are only a tiny number of people who can run up their bills that high, but Stratus is betting that they're unhappy with the rewards cards that are currently available.


Stratus Rewards's new white-plastic Visa card is a rival to the ultra-exclusive Black Card from AmEx.


Until now, the most enticing pitch big spenders received was for the Black Card, also known as Centurion, AmEx's official name for the product. Born in 1999, the card — which comes with an annual fee of $2,500, up from $1,000 when it was launched — is bursting with benefits, from free nights at luxury hotels to a personal concierge who will buy your Christmas gifts and track down an elusive pair of Manolos. You generally need to be spending $150,000 annually on another AmEx card to even get an application for the Centurion.

Stratus faces considerable obstacles in trying to establish itself as an alternative to one of the most-coveted status symbols around. Many big spenders are unlikely to forgo the cachet that comes with flashing a Black Card around. In addition, among business-savvy customers, there is some skepticism that the newcomer will be around long enough to deliver on its promised rewards.

Still, Stratus is convinced that AmEx is neglecting an important aspect of pampering wealthy customers. While the Black Card offers many luxury travel freebies, it lacks a private jet reward. "There are people out there who accrue millions of points on their cards and then can't use them because they don't travel commercially," says Alison Chittum, the president of Stratus, which is based in Santa Monica, Calif.

To launch the card, Stratus teamed up with US Bank, a unit of U.S. Bancorp, an issuer of plastic that earns more prosaic Northwest Airlines frequent-flier miles. But Stratus and its main investor, the closely held Avacus Corp., are pretty much unknown. Avacus owns two wineries and Circle of Friends, a children's beauty products company.

Stratus hopes holders of its personal cards will each charge at least $100,000 per year. Customers who use it as a company card can hand out cards to employees, who might spend four or five times that on all of their cards, according to company projections. Stratus gets a cut of the merchant fees paid to US Bank when consumers use the card, plus it will charge a $1,500 annual fee.

Though Stratus says it doesn't intend to compete with the Black Card, comparisons are inevitable. It hired Mark Shore, an AmEx veteran, to help with the launch. He claims to know the Black Card's flaws inside and out. "They kind of overpromised and underdelivered," says Mr. Shore, who worked with AmEx's travel partners in the high-end card programs. At times, he said, Black Card holders had trouble getting through to their assigned travel agents and had to wait on hold.

An American Express spokeswoman says the company provides a high level of service.

For consumers looking to make one anyway, there is a long list of benefits to compare. But first, you have to convince the companies to give you a card. Stratus says that initially, it will accept applications only from customers of its marketing partners and people those clients refer. Partners include luxury travel company Abercrombie & Kent and Sony.

Ms. Chittum, Stratus's president, says the company intends to start a wait list for people lacking connections who still want the card. It plans to open under 10,000 accounts in the next year; the Black Card had at least 15,000 accounts open when Mr. Shore left, and the number has probably increased since then. AmEx declined to comment on that figure.
As for the perks, with the Black Card, users get automatic elite status — including bonus points and free upgrades — in the frequent-flier programs of Continental, Delta and US Airways, plus upgrades and free nights at Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood hotels. Fly nondiscounted first or business class with one of the 20 participating airlines and a companion can come along free.

Stratus cardholders, meanwhile, can bring along at least six other people on their plane. Each dollar cardholders spend on the card earns one rewards point, and each flight hour on a seven-seat Citation Ultra requires 195,000 of them. The fanciest plane available is the Gulfstream IV-SP, which costs 1,295,000 points per hour and can ferry up to 13 people.

The flight reward seems hopelessly out of reach at first glance. But business owners can gather up the points generated by employees who use the card, and Stratus is letting friends pool the points. If cardholders are still short, they'll often be able to pay for the balance by charging the remaining flight fee to their cards.

But to potential clients like Michael Auriemma — a credit-card expert who runs Auriemma Consulting in Westbury, N.Y. — signing up for Stratus would be a leap of faith. "What if they're not around when I get to 400,000 points?" asks Mr. Auriemma, whose firm has worked for American Express and a number of other credit card companies. He is currently considering an upgrade to the Black Card. Ms. Chittum says that Stratus hopes to alleviate such concerns through its plan to set aside money in a trust to cover all outstanding Stratus Rewards points.

Byron Watson, a Denver Black Card holder who works in telecommunications, has already received the Stratus pitch in the mail, but has no plans to change. He figures he ended up with $1,600 worth of upgrades, free nights and other goodies last year, thanks to the Black Card. Since he got his card before the annual fee went up to $2,500 for new customers, he pays only $1,000 a year for it. "In a sense, it pays for itself if you use it right," he says.

Interesting-- while looking through my cached pages on Google Desktop I also found a letter from Amex to shareholders from 1999.
Interesting to compare to current numbers.

TO OUR FELLOW SHAREHOLDERS:



By and large, 1999 was a very good year. Financial and volume results were outstanding, and we made significant investments to help the business grow in the future. We have many challenges and opportunities to address, but our confidence in the company’s future success is stronger than ever. As we move into 2000, celebrating 150 years in business, we are on very solid financial, strategic and operational ground.

Among the many highlights of the past year are:

Financial performance that met or exceeded our long-term financial targets of 12 to 15 percent growth in earnings per share, return on equity of 18 to 20 percent and at least an eight percent increase in revenue. In fact, our double-digit increase in revenues last year was the best performance of the decade.
Growth in cards-in-force in both the United States and internationally, continued success in adding new merchants who accept our cards, and a substantial increase in Cardmember lending balances.
The introduction of several significant new products — including Blue from American Express, the ultra-premium Centurion Card, Membership B@nking and American Express Brokerage — that set new standards which distinguished American Express from the competition.
Continued success at American Express Financial Advisors, with strong growth in sales and assets under management, improved investment performance and the launch of new initiatives to help retain and attract additional financial advisors.
Solid international card and travel related business results, including higher billed business and lending balances, despite economic weakness in many areas of the world.

Another old article from Bloomberg News that refers to the number of holders-

Tuesday, April 16, 2002
'Black Card'
By Helen Stock
Bloomberg News

NEW YORK -- New York modeling agent Paolo Zampolli chose to avoid a car trip in Brazil last year by dialing the number on his Centurion credit card, the black plastic he holds for being one of American Express Co.'s biggest spenders. An hour later, he was flying over the Guaiba River.

"I just wanted a helicopter," said Zampolli, 32, who was scouting for new models. "I don't know how to describe it."

American Express is marketing the "black card," which comes with 24-hour access to a personal concierge, as the ultimate trophy and available only to some customers who spend more than $150,000 on another of the company's cards.

Zampolli says he now charges about $70,000 a month, including the $60,000 Patek Philippe watch he recently bought for himself.

The Centurion card is nicknamed for the dark shades that make up the logo and the Trojan on its face. Holders get to shop after hours at jeweler Harry Winston or watch the World Golf Championships at Valderrama in Spain from behind the ropes. Rapper Sean "P. Diddy" Combs has used his to buy 400 pink Cosmopolitans at the Sunset Room in Los Angeles.

The 3-year-old card's mystique isn't lost on other financial firms, who are plugging 2-inch-by-3-inch status symbols of their own. As markets have slumped in recent years, banks and asset managers are seeking new ways to hang on to their wealthiest clients.

J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.'s private bank is working on a card for those with at least $25 million that may come with everything from knick-knacks to evacuation services, said Richard Srednicki, the second-biggest U.S. bank's head of credit cards. Merrill Lynch & Co.'s Visa Signature card for people with more than $10 million was introduced in 1998 and comes with "whatever it is they want us to do," said Donna Batavia, first vice president of client relationship services.

"A credit card is now something that plays a role in the relationship with a high-net-worth client," said Louis Harvey, president of Dalbar Inc., a Boston-based financial services research firm. "With the economy of the last two years, it's more important to get and keep the rich people."

Some rivals, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which owns Discover cards, haven't issued cards for clients who already can afford first-class air tickets and posh hotel rooms, according to the firms.

"These people are enormously wealthy already," said G. Moffett Cochran, former head of Credit Suisse First Boston's asset management unit in the Americas. "A lot of (it) is marketing to create a buzz. If I had a medical emergency in the Okavango Delta, I really don't think it would occur to me to call my banker."

American Express, which charges black cardholders $1,000 a year, now gets unsolicited requests for it, the New York company said. The number in circulation isn't disclosed, although some users said that the earliest invitations went to just a few hundred. The fee is worth it if just for the buy-one-get-one-free offer on first-class air tickets, some holders said.

Personal concierges also have tracked down an autographed Frank Sinatra album, had Maine lobsters flown to a California restaurant and arranged tours of British castles and tickets to sold-out Washington Wizards basketball games.

American Express earns more from cardholders when they spend more and analysts said the company may also try to attract them to its Minneapolis-based asset management arm, where revenue fell 33 percent last year as stocks slumped. Black card customers get a free consultation with a financial adviser, though cross-selling investment advice isn't a priority, said Ruediger Adolf, general manager for brokerage and banking services.

"It's too small a (group) for what we are trying to do" selling extra services to Gold and Platinum customers, Adolf said.

American Express may have an interest in keeping the list of black cardholders short to maintain their exclusivity. The number of platinum cards, now offered by almost every issuer, has risen 74 percent to 87 million in two years, according to the Nilson Report, an Oxnard, California-based newsletter.

"A black card in the wallet is a very unique thing," said Andy Yost, vice president of marketing for the card. "The goal is to keep it small."

Merrill's card, which comes with personalized shopping and reimbursement for medical evacuation while traveling, is for brokerage clients who use a cash management account for day-to-day banking. Without a credit limit, the card is designed to make large purchases low hassle.

For Marco Pangherz, a London property developer who once put a new motorcycle on his American Express black card, doting personal service is critical to the card's prestige. Sometimes that isn't even up to the issuer, he said, remembering a Christmas stop at Tiffany & Co. in Milan.

"The shop assistant was completely useless," Pangherz said. "I showed (the manager) the card and I said, 'You've just lost a very good customer,' and I walked out."

"It's an ego thing, at the end of the day," he said.

good articles ^

stratus is dead, merrill dropped the $10M req, and JP never went ahead with their card. thats too bad about JP. that would have been interesting..

15K as of 2003, should be up quite a bit in 3 years. and charter only stopped in what 2005 or 2006?

i should be able to find out approx #. unfortunately im waiting for a call back from an amex employee.

Personal concierges also have tracked down an autographed Frank Sinatra album, had Maine lobsters flown to a California restaurant and arranged tours of British castles and tickets to sold-out Washington Wizards basketball games. :)

good articles ^

stratus is dead, merrill dropped the $10M req, and JP never went ahead with their card. thats too bad about JP. that would have been interesting..

15K as of 2003, should be up quite a bit in 3 years. and charter only stopped in what 2005 or 2006?

i should be able to find out approx #. unfortunately im waiting for a call back from an amex employee.

:)

They are kind of fun to read. I have more. Including one from a Washington DC Business magazine that claims (as of Sept 2002) that there were only 4000 holders but also has this (rather silly) claim:

"You can even use an American Express black card to buy the American Express Corporation - if the company thinks you can afford it. (Seriously, we checked.) AmEx will analyze your financial history on super-huge purchases to determine if you can pay the bill. If you pass muster, you can put a billion-dollar plus purchase on your card."

Also, I noticed in my old Amex Proxy information under Director Compensation that the board all got one (add those cards into your figures ;)

"In 1999 we introduced the American Express® Centurion Card and issued a Card to each non-employee Director. We waived the $1,000 annual fee for the first year."

you can charge anything. for the average person theyll require a wire transfer before the charge is made though.

hopefully ill get US stats, but other question = who publishes centurion magazine for IL, MX, and RU?

all i know is amex publishing is going to do departures for RU.

4 years > 15K
2 more years then fee/req increase for new applicants
1 more year then fee increase for original cardholders and initiation fee for new applicants

seems like its dependent on the fluctuation of #s of cardholders.

will be interesting to see what happens now.

My word hasn't this topic generated a lot of replies!

Some interesting discussions and a range of responses - we have long termers that have had the card since it was launched, relatively new members and then people from all over the world. I think it would be fair to say that different markets have different requirements. The intersting question that has been raised is whom AmEx is trying to target with the card:

I've just read a really good post on another topic in the AmEx forum about the ultra rich (UltraHNW) - these people that have people that work for them like PA's etc that would have no real use at all of the benefits. People that don't need airline/hotel status because they will travel/stay enough already or will simply be comped it by the company given the amount of corp $'s that are sent in that direction. So are they the target market? Not so sure.

Kagehitokiri, I noticed you pulled up a spend stat on my employer. Not sure what message you are trying to convey as the article is about the savings we make via MSExpense. No annual card fees are charged, there is a lot of corporate spend but more importantly is the amount of travel spend where the money for AmEx will roll in. We (like probably all large corps) get a kickback from AmEx (in $m's) for having such a large card base and spend which cuts away the revenue from merchant spend. It's the travel aspect.

And for a long time that is what AmEx UK looked for when considering applications for Centurion; sure it was spend, but the amount of travel spend was a breakdown factor. US went for a different approach and went for a set waypoint in regards to min spend and then you could be accepted. UK never revelead their criteria but were a bit more granular in the approach. Problem is with that they did indeed get greedy, and took on far too many new accounts. Was it to reach critical mass, was it because they needed to boost the OpEx sheet? I think it was the latter, hence why VS Clubhouse access has now gone because simply AmEx UK no longer wanted to pay VS each time a Centurion used the facility. We all know that SPG Plat was removed worldwide because AmEx didn't want to pay the per customer fee that Starwood wanted.

As a UK member for over 5 years, I have seen the service and the benefits decline. The first year when Centurion was launched (March 99 onwards) was free, and then it was £550, raised to £650 in 2001. Do I get my £650 value? Yes. Hence why I keep the card. Am I as happy when I first got the card? No. Obviosuly not because the benefits have dwindled. But then there is no shortage of people that would happily pay the £650 fee just to have the card. I kind of get the impression that this is what the desired market is for the UK, reduce the benefits down keep the fee as it is and make better money as we don't have as many partners to pay for the benefits. If the cardbase book travel, then that's a bonus and we increase profit. Those that don't think they get value from £650 will drop the product, and to be honest Platinum in the UK is a dman good product nowadays at £300. I think the US are taking a different stance though - they are trying to aim for a different market like a lot of you have said - lets set a hurdle with the $5k initial fee to see what kind of person they are. Either they have no qualms about $5k and are likely to have no issue spending money like its going out of fashion, or it may be someone that is prepared to pay for the product and make use of the benefits (but we're okay as we got $5k to help pay towards them and some profit too).

As for the number of cardholders, I love reading the articles that are published by the media in relation to Centurion. The vast majority are abysmal and poorly informed, they have been taken in by the hype and mystique of the card. The only decent set I see are the pieces in the WSJ by Ron Lieber as he speaks to real-life Centurion cardholders and not some PR machine. 10k worldwide is an absolute joke, there are nearly double that number in the UK alone.

Full marks to Centurion marketing though for creating such a buzz, sure there are plenty of people in the US that would pay $5k and then the $2500 annual fee just so they can have the card in their wallets.

Thanks,
Richard

Full marks to Centurion marketing though for creating such a buzz, sure there are plenty of people in the US that would pay $5k and then the $2500 annual fee just so they can have the card in their wallets.


Richard


Anecdotally, we have a contractor who works for us who has been planning
to get a Cent card. He was just about to get one when they raised the threshold and he's had to wait as he raised his monthly spending accordingly. (he's one of the biz people I suspect Cent is trying to eliminate-- someone who runs company expenses through their personal card)

I assumed that the new initiation fee would be a deal-killer and a few days ago I told him that I was sorry he had missed his window. To my surprise, he told me that a 5K initiation fee would not deter him at all.

I think the reason this subject is so interesting is that it's a business case study and a human psychology study all in one. :)

FWIW - some posters in this thread appear to not be aware there is a PERSONAL centurion and then there is a BUSINESS centurion card. I assume AMEX created a BUSINESS centurion so that BUSINESS EXPENSES could be charged to the card. Some posters continue to make it sound as if running business expenses through CENT is a bad thing and is somehow unwanted by AMEX or is a deviant way to earn and maintain a CENT card. What's up w/ that ?

FWIW - some posters in this thread appear to not be aware there is a PERSONAL centurion and then there is a BUSINESS centurion card. I assume AMEX created a BUSINESS centurion so that BUSINESS EXPENSES could be charged to the card. Some posters continue to make it sound as if running business expenses through CENT is a bad thing and is somehow unwanted by AMEX or is a deviant way to earn and maintain a CENT card. What's up w/ that ?

I agree. I don't know why people have a problem with that in general. Amex doesn't care how their members generate merchant fees for them, as long as they are generated. When people ask me how I qualified, I explain to them about my expenses in general. When I get to the part about business travel, I get a sort of "Aha!" reaction.

I tell people who ask how I qualified that I did so because I have a fetish for buying hats (I don't ever actually wear hats). Or, when asked what it is, as a previous poster recommended, I tell them its like a scarlet letter from Amex for having late payments too many times. :p

amex would rather have
-large corporations with corporate cards
-CEOs with business AND personal centurions

than
-entry level employees with business centurions

(obviously im only referring to corporate and business cardholders here)

of course, theyll take whoever meets the requirements, because between spend and initiation fee, its fairly selective. unless of course the person only spends for 1 year, and then stops spending once they have the card.. i cant imagine that strat is that common though.

note that hong kong has had the initiation fee for a while.

a number of European countries including UK should be seeing at LEAST fee increases in the near future, if not benefit increases to go along with them.

richard, even if MS receives $10M kickback or $20M kickback, youre still making AX a ton of money because of merchant fees.

the reason i posted the info i had was to try to demonstrate that the argument that amex NEEDS people who spend $100K-$300K/yr to make money or makes a lot of money from annual fees appears to be logically weak IMHO.

regarding initiation fee, again id personally pay $10K no problem, if i met spending qualifiation.

http://www.geocities.jp/ctwxg845/centurioncard2.html
http://www.journal-international.de/journal.php?mnu=2&detail=12&tpl=12&lang=en&gruppe=ji
http://www.departures.com/mediakit/international06.cfm
http://www.departures.com/mediakit/downloads/DEP_1206.pdf

http://www.adinternational.be/pdf_rest/Platinum_Centurion_Europe.pdf
http://www.adinternational.be/pdf_rest/Platinum_Centurion_Asia.pdf
http://www.adinternational.be/pdf_rest/Platinum_Centurion_Australia.pdf

centurion magazine circulation numbers

AU, FR, HK, (ICC), (Middle East), SG = 31,400
UK, DE, IT, NL, ES, SE, CH = 41,500
JP = 10,000 (someone PMed me)
US, MX = 23,500

total ~ 106,400 +

+ CA, IL, RU

average HHI of all centurion cardholders = $466K
average HHI of UK centurion cardholders = £416K

Merchant fees at 3% on $210m is $6.3m. Now knowing our travel spend and the commission rates, the figure is in excess of that figure.

But I understand where you are coming from. Yeah I can see UK pushing the annual fee up but something doesn't add up. Platinum benefits were significantly enhanced and the fee went up from £275 to £300, just under 10%. To bring it in line with the US, they would need to practically double the current fee and bring in some stellar benefits - can't see that happening. Unless they go for a grandfather approach for a few years.

Thanks,
Richard

De Uk Ch ~$1500

Us Hk Mx Au Se Fr It Es Nl Sg Il Ru Icc Jp ~$2500

amex would rather have
-large corporations with corporate cards
-CEOs with business AND personal centurions

than
-entry level employees with business centurions


Kagehitokiri, pardon my bluntness, but your conclusions are getting tiresome.

Using your logic, AMEX would prefer to have Exxon's business over, say, Apple's, or Madonna's over, say, Rosie's.

For that matter, AMEX would then prefer Putin's over Bush's (magnitude is all that matters according to you, right, and we all know Putin's wealth is greater than Bush's) ?

IOW - you're making ridiculous conclusions based on (your personalopinion) that AMEX values aggregate volume business and somehow tiers them....and you can't begin to comprehend intangibles such as a) perhaps even small business bring AMEX incremental business b) bring them 7-figure referral accounts from peer-owned businesses, and so on.

You are trying to analyze "what amex wants" in a customer profile in a very strict, myopic sense, and its somewhat laughable. ok, I can agree. AMEX would prefer to have Bill Gate's personal and business centurion business than mine. You win the debate. :)

OF COURSE AMEX would love to get a Fortune 5's business instead of a Fortune 100's business.

But - in the real world - they would MUCH RATHER prefer to get any/all of the business than let it go to their competitor (the real issue). You seem to not understand the fundamental concept of "profit" and "incremental profit".

In effect, you lose credibility by making such extreme, unrealistic arguments. I wore out several of your posts ago.

No, I doubt I will ever match Microsoft's annual spend, but I suspect I beat yours by several magnitudes.

... Some posters continue to make it sound as if running business expenses through CENT is a bad thing and is somehow unwanted by AMEX or is a deviant way to earn and maintain a CENT card. What's up w/ that ?

I think the "invitation only" marketing of Centurion gives an impression of exclusivity which leads to the idea that American Express uses spending or celebrity :rolleyes: as a proxy for income or net worth . However, American Express could easily require proof of income or a financial statement if they wanted to restrict Centurion to cardholders of substantial means. Instead they have chosen to use transaction volume, and this creates the opportunity for gaming by running other people's expenses through an account for one year to artificially increase volume. This is different than qualifying for a business Centurion through legitimate spending. American Express could easily remedy this by implementing a spending requirement for renewal.

The fact that American Express does not require financial information or sustained spending suggests that these considerations are not important in the way they would be to a bank which aimed to manage the cardholders' assets. Bear in mind that American Express is very much a mass market enterprise and their financial results are driven by volume not by quality.

1.
you can disagree with my "conclusions" but you cannot argue that losing $100K-$300K of spending a year matters to them, unless several thousand people in that range stop using amex completely.

the idea that one centurion cardholder who spends $300K/yr is a huge loss, and they should never let it happen is ridiculous. and that APPEARS to be what some people on FT have argued in the past. maybe it was only a few, maybe im misinterpreting them, so im personally trying to be very clear with my choice of words. (to try to avoid being misinterpreted)

2.
anyway, ILUVCITIBANK why did you ignore the rest of my post? i said exactly the same thing you said.

this is what i said immediately after the section you quoted.
of course, theyll take whoever meets the requirements, because between spend and initiation fee, its fairly selective. unless of course the person only spends for 1 year, and then stops spending once they have the card.. i cant imagine that strat is that common though.

note that hong kong has had the initiation fee for a while.

i see you also ignored all my previous posts with statistics of spending by ultra wealthy. not UHNW which is defined as over $5M but those even more wealthy.

ignoring, misquoting, and misrepresenting my statements do not help your argument, whatever it is.

3.
as mia said, all amex really cares about is SPENDING LEVEL. if you demonstrate it, you dont need to demonstrate income/etc.

and they have plenty of free/low fee cards, and the platinum card, which because of its lower original fee, its fee does not go up as much as the centurion card does in terms of absolute value. it has also lost very few benefits.

No, I doubt I will ever match Microsoft's annual spend, but I suspect I beat yours by several magnitudes.

You post a long well thought out post and mention credibility at least 3 times then you destroy yours.

i wasnt going to respond to that, but since you mentioned it >

considering ive said repeatedly that i dont have the spending, but would pay $10K down and $2500 a year if i was able to get the centurion card. the hotel benefits are worth that to me. airline status and other things wouldnt hurt at all either.

but i dont WANT amex to give me the centurion card. because then they would have to hold back in terms of benefits, because there would be too many cardholders.

id rather they increase spending requirements, and it take me longer to get there. because it will be better in the end.

mia,
excellent points (as always). I have long-wondered why AMEX doesn't/didn't emplace some sort of min annual spend requirement, at least for their highest-level cards (say the CENT and maybe PLAT), or have rolling min-spend tiers for all cards. Of course, if they were to do so...it would expose them to a lot more churn, I suspect, because we all know the king has no real clothes (MR is anemic and dying, relying only on the greater fool theory that one fool joins where another just left, and the CENT perk package is twisting also (losing HYatt Diamond and SPG PLAT were mortal wounds). Several posters have done some innovative math and concluded that AMEC could lose as many as half the current grandfathered CENTS and still make up the loss (of annual fee revenue) up on the 2.5x increase. I nominally agree w/ this math in this simplistic analysis. BUT - if I go away, I take my spend...and if anyone bothered to extrapolate the risk that others might do this also, I think the damage might be more.

In any case, I am in the cat-bird's seat here...because my fee renews next month, so I'll sit tight one more yr at the $1000 and watch the backlash unfold...I have some suspicion AMEX will absolutely roll out a DECENT perk package in Jan, 2008 (unlike this years's new additions, which are so esoteric and meaningless for US CENTs that I am, once again, underwhelemed at AMEX), not only because they are getting 2.5x the annual fees...and stiff buy-in fees, *but also because* they are now going to get some competition at the top-end for high-end affinity cards and wil have to compete. Time will tell.

Some background:
When I called AMEX years ago to inquire about CENT requirements (and this was back when there was genuine consensus that this was "by invitation only", fiddlesticks; I called and invited myself well before it was known this was possible), they outlined the requirements, and stressed that to even be considered one must have been a PLAT for "x" years (I don't recall the number of years at the time). The longevity as a PLAT issue was considered an absolute. Fiddlesticks again...I was able to find a workaround for that so-called strict requirement and upgraded from PLAT a couple of months before the annual fee kicked up to $2500. So, little ol me, and not a large CORPORATE spender, broke two so-called absolute rules to get the CENT card. Big deal all things considered.

=====> My point <======
AMEX, for every so-called threshold requirement...ALWAYS TAKES THE MONEY AND RUNS in spite of any rule I have ever encountered. There is an exception for practically every rule they've ever set before me, if I needed a work-around. Trust me - AMEX appreciates profit, annual spend, and annual fees, and not necessarily in this order. They could *care less* if my spend is $3 less than your spend, and so on, because they correctly understand that profit must be considered from an incremental approach, and not in a vacuum. For anyone to play with these unalterable rules of engagement means they don't understand the core of AMEX, or most financial institutions.

AMEX values aggregate volume business and somehow tiers them....

AMEX absolutely tiers/bins customers in to categories not just on volume, but a host of factors (reported salary, credit score, spend, home value, zip code, number of calls, etc.). Based on those categories they look for profitability, and ABSOLUTELY puts them into tiers. Every company does this to its customers to see if there are ways to attrack the high profit customers and get rid of low profit customers. The low profit category includes customers that are actually in the black - ones that are on paper making money.

AMEX's move to increase the spending requirement, increase Grandfathered Centurion members, and increase the first year fee is simply AMEX looking to increase their companies value/profit consistent with the approach above.

While you are probably right, I still hope by whittling away members that they see as borderline members, we can see an increase in benefits.

...long-wondered why AMEX doesn't ... emplace some sort of min annual spend requirement, at least for their highest-level cards (say the CENT and maybe PLAT)

I agree you are in the best possible position with an April renewal.

I share your surprise that there is no minimum transaction requirement to maintain Centurion inasmuch as spending drives their revenue. If the qualification threshold is $250,000 in 12 consective months, I would look for, say, $400,000 in 24 consecutive months. The spending could be on any combination of American Express cards.

I think the lustre is off Platinum. Inasmuch as there is no spending requirement to obtain the card I wouldn't expect any to retain it.

What would you like to see to revive Membership Rewards? I did very well out of it in 2006 because they ran a series of double point promotions, but I am fixated on one type of award (MIA-LON with a flat bed). If I recall correctly you do not travel internationally, and the addition of Air France, KLM and Alitalia probably didn't do much for you?

between NH, AF, VS, E0 i also like the airline options

CX or BA would certainly be nice, but not necessary IMHO. actually come to think of it, why would CX not be possible in the US? AA and BA have current partners but CX does not.. perhaps CX doesn't want that many people able to transfer in.. there are many fewer Canadian cardholders im sure.

although one thing they could do is make RC awards more competitive to at least ML+ if not DC.

What would you like to see to revive Membership Rewards? I did very well out of it in 2006 because they ran a series of double point promotions, but I am fixated on one type of award (MIA-LON with a flat bed). If I recall correctly you do not travel internationally, and the addition of Air France, KLM and Alitalia probably didn't do much for you?

Yes, since I fly zero internationally, adding an international partner, or a JetBlue (for domestic, of which they don't fly within 125 miles of my home either), is no value to me unfortunately.

The fact that AMEX has *never* been able to lasso just ONE, not to mention BOTH, of the world's largest airlines (UA and AA) speaks reams about the lack of leverage AMEX has w/ AA or UA and is such a huge omission on the part of AMEX/MR that its ..tough to overcome (ie I doubt they can do enough to make it a premiere affinity program ever again). Seems like yearly a hotel program will drop out as well.

Then, AMEX seems to think everytime they lose a major domestic (NWA after the very first year, and several others), that they don't have to REPLACE w/ an equal or superior partner...makes for a very predictable trend.

How does AMEX fix this ? Since they are either in denial and honestly don't know their own weaknesses (my view to a degree), or they know the weakenss (but the greater fool theory applies and they know this - that for every drop-out, one will replace) or, thirdly, some, such as yourself, do genuinely get actual because you can use their international opportunities)...I conclude it is what it is and doubtful anything will change it.

At one point, spg had the *best opportunity* to displace MR and I would argue de facto DID displace a huge base of AMEX users. It was a de facto Membership Rewards for all practical purposes. But, now that spg is losing an airline a year as an exchange partner (going 2:1 = losing them), and w/ the recent massive devaluation..spg has lost its lustre as well. Its still the queen, but no longer king of the ball for me.

So, my answer is..."I don't know but I'll tell you when I see it". Wish I could offer better. :)

P.S. What single event or opportunity *trumps* all of this ? A Double points promotion, where, if I can get into one or two a year on the EARNINGS side of the equation (last year was my first double miles promo for my AMEX/CENT ever) then I opt to [continue] to be a mushroom one more year each year and see how it goes (look for improvements). Otherwise, I divert my spend away from MR and into other channels (AMEX/spg through 1/31/07, and now am focusing strictly on 2% cashback as much as possible).

Separately - a buddy of mine, charging $150K a month, is grandfathered in some no-cap 2% cash-back (any charge) that AMEX has apparently closed out. He had the affinity account code at one time but has lost it, and now he's afraid to even call AMEX to bring up the subject out of fear they might cancel or force him to adjust to a new program. Other than the Sams Club / Discover 2% cash-back (rebate caps ay $1MM spend annually, ie just short of $20K cash back), are you aware of any 1.5% or better cash-back "any type of charge" programs w/ no cap ? AT 1.5% or less I just keep accruing spg points but I am overweighted at this point and struggling for alternatives.

it would be logical to assume UA and AA have exclusive partner agreements with Chase and CITI respectively. UA even has 2:1 with Starwood.

although if DC had AA before being bought by CITI that would weaken that thought for AA.

if indeed it was a matter of Starwood wanting $500 per cardholder and AMEX not wanting to pay that (which another poster stated) then it will be an interesting possibility if Starwood gave the same option to other companies like CITI (with that $5000 card drbond mentioned was being casually considered at one point)

personally, i dont care value domestic FFP transfers or domestic airline status. ill never worry about maintaining airline status. and i would rather have IC RA than Starwood Platinum.

While you are probably right, I still hope by whittling away members that they see as borderline members, we can see an increase in benefits.



Weez, what I don't get is why everyone thinks that by merely whittling away marginal customers perks and benefits will improve ? This is not a simple zero sum game AMEX plays. There is a CONCURRENT massive increase in annual fee, which [should] really float the boat for AMEX to be able to offer some incredible, new, and innovative perks and benefits...my only fear is they WILL NOT. If there were no additional high-end affinity cards about to enter the mainstream, I am certain AMEX would play the same old strategy of squeeze them (raise fees) and reduce benefits. Its worked for years for them.

Now, w/ this so-called Chairman v.2 re-launch, among others, they might feel a little cause to improve their product.

OTOH as mia pointed out previously, AMEX might be relying on Chairman V2 to pick up some of the Centurion cardholders who cancel. (because it is an AMEX card)

your "fears" are clearly backed up by the history of higher fees and major benefit losses, i dont think anyone denies that. i think you are right, and its a fairly safe bet that certain things will continue to be cut, and there might be any major benefits added.

although the domestic companion is certainly better than citi's current offering.

different people put different value on different benefits.

Weez, what I don't get is why everyone thinks that by merely whittling away marginal customers perks and benefits will improve ? This is not a simple zero sum game AMEX plays. There is a CONCURRENT massive increase in spend, which really floats the boat for AMEX to be able to offer some incredible, new, and innovative perks and benefits...my only fear is they WILL NOT. If there were no additional high-end affinity cards about to enter the mainstream, I am certain AMEX would play the same old strategy of squeeze them (raise fees) and reduce benefits. Its worked for years for them.

Now, w/ this so-called Chairman v.2 re-launch, among others, they might feel a little cause to improve their product.

lol I don't think benefits will improve, I can hope though ;) I agree with most of what you say.

My Wish
smaller user base, higher fees=more benefits

My Expectation
smaller user base, higher fees, same benefits (or less)=more profit

it would be logical to assume UA and AA have exclusive partner agreements with Chase and CITI respectively. UA even has 2:1 with Starwood.

<-- yes, I am aware of those reknowned exclusives. Forbes, in an expose article years ago now, blew away AMEX's arrogant posture when AA first approached AMEX to become their partner in a novel concept known as "AAdvantage". Yes, AA approached AMEX first, for cryin out loud. That was an interesting read and gave me my first insight into how AMEX worked (in such a dysfunctional manner). You of all posters should try to locate that article (because of your obvious interest in this subject and excellent sourcing skills) and read how AMEX literally blew off AA, so AA turned to Citibank...and the rest is history.


if indeed it was a matter of Starwood wanting $500 per cardholder and AMEX not wanting to pay that (which another poster stated) then it will be an interesting possibility if Starwood gave the same option to other companies like CITI (with that $5000 card drbond mentioned was being casually considered at one point)

<-- and guess what the AMEX CSR told me just yesterday - that NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE USED THE SPG/PLAT benefit so starwood felt it was not being used enough and cancelled it. How about that gross mis-understanding (or misrepresentation) ? Of course, it was the 1st level CSR who probably didn't have a clue why spg/PLAT was cancelled from the CENT program...or was being told to say this when customers complained so AMEX didn't look so inept. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

personally, i dont care value domestic FFP transfers or domestic airline status. ill never worry about maintaining airline status. and i would rather have IC RA than Starwood Platinum.

<--ahem...another benefit AMEX/CENT could not (or chose not to) hold onto


SEE POINT TO POINT RESPONSE ABOVE shown by "<---"


So, all said and done, what would be your perfect outcome w/ respect to AMEX MR and/or CENT ?

i dont defend it. thats almost like an ad hominem attack.

its worth it to some people, like me, aviators, supreme leader of the world, etc.

its not worth it to you, and many others. (who are obviously more vocal, deservedly so)

neither are right or wrong. neither are smart or stupid. neither are lazy or not lazy. its called difference of opinion.

wow. i had no idea AMEX turned down AA like that. :eek: crazy IMHO. odd they do have Business ExtrAA though..

Maybe AMEX views the situation as follows:

1. They reviewed their customers and profiles of the spending
2. Determined that some customers (say Group A) are interested in freq travel benefits on common carriers and with mainstream hotel brands. Others are interested in more exclusive benefits or less mainstream benefits including simple prestige (say Group B).
3. Maybe Group A is less profitable and cares about fee increases. Maybe Group B is more profitable and does not care about a fee.

By "less profitable", I mean customers that use benefts that cost AMEX more on an activity basis or cause trouble with partners due to the volume of the related transactions.

i dont defend it. thats almost like an ad hominem attack.

its worth it to some people, like me, aviators, supreme leader of the world, etc.

its not worth it to you, and many others.

neither are right or wrong. neither are smart or stupid. neither are lazy or not lazy. its called difference of opinion.

Fair enough.

BTW, when you state: its worth it to some people, like me, aviators, supreme leader of the world, etc. Is there a point (ie what annual fee) where you don't feel the benefits justify the expense ? If this "works" ( increase to $2500 fee for all, w/ a stiff initiation fee for newcomers) for AMEX then they surely will continue the progression until the inflection point. One could argue they are taking a simple credit card and clearly turning it into a 'Status" card, where one literally buys their status. In effect, AMEX has hijacked their own product, which is fine in a free enterprise world.

To this end, I wish they would "re-introduce" a partner card to this new-fangled CENT PRESTIGE CARD that goes back to what CENT was when it was first introduced...maybe color the card pink...and leave it for the business customers. All of this hype and jacking of rates seems ok for personal cards, but strangely out of place for a business card. I wanted the CENT strictly for the benefits it once had...and could care less about any hint of exclusivity. I am more embarrassed than anything to admit I have this card and at one time could defend the expense based on the perks. I am now in the awkward position where the value is still "about $1000" but not a lot more.

awake, i think that is a very interesting point, also made here by WellMoneyed
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7371441&postcount=164

ILUVCITIBANK, again i would pay $10K down, $15K is pushing it, $20K no way in hell (for current US card)

$2500 a year would be fine. $3000 isnt much different. above that, and ill reevaluate. (unless its simply inflation, and not really an increase)

i have no idea what their answer to your question would be.

you raise a good point, maybe amex should make a card designed for people like entry level employees (not suggesting you are one, i have no idea) who run a lot of business expenses through their card, and would pay a large annual fee for certain benefits, that are very different from the benefits desired by people whose personal spend is similar/higher.

Kagehitokiri <-- gulp. We definitely value this one differently.

Awake, excellent theory. But the surreal aspect of such a theory is that AMEX would ever "cull" a CENT profile customer, even if it wasn't their "ideal CENT".

Gosh, that would be tantamount to me keeping my top 5% customer base (let's call them group A) and doing certain things to (literally) alienate my "mere" 90-95% best customer base (lets call them Group B), and then think and assume my Group B would smile, accept the knife in the back, and still be loyal to my company.

Seems counter-intuitive to me.

i dont understand what you think of the statistics i found on spending by the ultra wealthy though ILUVCITIBANK..

the stats are certainly interesting IMHO, and they would seem to suggest pretty clearly that amex only needs a few of those sorts of people, instead of 100 times as many people who each spend 1/100th of the amount..

and thats EXACTLY what awake and wellmoneyed are talking about.

why do Aman, FS, RC, MO, Pen, etc not have (public) frequent guest programs? because it would cost them a lot, and get them no noticeable increase in business. (meaning they lose money, and have to cut elsewhere)

then there is Stratus Rewards. sounded great, but they over promised, and presumably went bankrupt before being bought out.

I wonder what will happen if they get customers to join despite the stiff initiation fee and then continue to dilute benefits.

For example, Kagehitokiri, you said you have no problem paying 10 to maybe 15,000 initiation right now and 2500 to 3000 dollars a year annually. I earn a good living and could certainly pay that kind of money, but I spend a total of 30 dollars on annual fees right now (SPG Amex, though I am looking at adding something else). Not traveling enough to make the card worth the fee. Plus, I guess I have a very high propensity to save, so despite having a generous disposable income, I choose not to dispose of it.

How would you proceed if you paid the initiation fee and then found yourself a year or two later with a diluted card with fewer and fewer perks? (For example what if the card was like the launch Centurion and then lost many of the perks?)

Personally, I would be pretty ticked off. Would they refund any of the initiation? I guess one way that AMEX could see things is that those who paid the initiation will want to remain Centurion longer to amortize the initiation fee.

Not attacking, just wondering...

fuzz

Hate to interrupt the argument [ ;) ]! I've been thinking about these issues for awhile - though only as it pertains to me.

I got the Centurion card with my then $150,000 spending - split evenly between Platinum AMEX and SPG AMEX. I enjoyed the airline elite status but I LOVED the SPG Platinum. It's loss is hardly measurable - well, actually it is. I have 13 nights reserved at a local hotel at $69 per nite on a double stay promo to regain it through Feb 2009.

I am clearly not what they had in mind when they launched this card. Can't quite make the new spend level and almost all of my truly first-class travel has been on points. And almost all of my spending is now on the SPG AMEX. I simply use more points now and reserve a suite. My monthly Centurion spending is often between $1,000 - $2,000 per month with about $20,000 on the SPG.

Why keep it? Not 100% sure, but the fact that I would not be able to get it again (if I missed it or if they ever, doubtfully, restored some glitter to it) keeps me hovering around. I realize that I'm not what they're looking for - they now seem to want those who pay cash and want the upgrades the card gives. So for the meanwhile, I'll hang on and just be glad I had it so good for 2+ years. As for the future, we'll see.

Kagehitokiri <-- gulp. We definitely value this one differently.

Awake, excellent theory. But the surreal aspect of such a theory is that AMEX would ever "cull" a CENT profile customer, even if it wasn't their "ideal CENT".

Gosh, that would be tantamount to me keeping my top 5% customer base (let's call them group A) and doing certain things to (literally) alienate my "mere" 90-95% best customer base (lets call them Group B), and then think and assume my Group B would smile, accept the knife in the back, and still be loyal to my company.

Seems counter-intuitive to me.

There is a bit of a difference... If you cull your customer base they go to competitors. Where do you go from AMEX Centurion? AMEX Platinum?

There is a bit of a difference... If you cull your customer base they go to competitors. Where do you go from AMEX Centurion? AMEX Platinum?

Since I don't think there is a compelling value in MR (except when I can earn at DOUBLE points via promotions), and the PLAT package has no attraction for me either, I focus my efforts on my 2% cash back cards and sprinkle enough at spg/AMEX to keep a viable starpoint balance. That's my gameplan right now.

there is no competition to centurion in terms of hotel benefits.

but if they dropped the additional cent hotel benefits, id never consider getting it.

I think that when they segment their customers, they will find 3 groups (which are not necessaily mutually exclusive)

1. High Networth - Do they really care about common carriers, mainstream hotels, etc. Many of the benefits of interest to this demo may not even matter to other card holders. Given that there are fewer of these card holders, the benefits probably do not cost AMEX that much. Frankly, some of the high-end benefits are more advertising for the service provider than a true value to the consumer.

2. Moderate Networth, High Maintenance Business People - Nice transaction fees, but expensive to maintain and do not contribute to the brand mystique. Maybe they can push them towards another product. Where would they go from AMEX? Who gives better perks? I am willing to bet that these consumers will spend just as much but on AMEX Platinum or Starwood SPG. Who really offers competitive products to AMEX? Maybe Diners...Maybe Citi Chairman...Maybe Merrill? The key word is maybe.

3. Moderate Networth, Status Seekers - They do not care about the fees or potentially even the benefits. Would they really give up their treasured black card. I was recently at a bar. A gentlemen was at a table near by. He was clanging his Centurion against a metal rail, running his hands through his hair, and moving around restlessly. Do you really think that he will give up his card if they jack up the fee?


Some key questionss.... What is the brand image of Centurion? What types of consumers and service partners will support this brand and be profitable for AMEX? Can AMEX capture other consumers with other products? Will the demand for AMEX Centurion increase or decrease with the change in fee, especially in those customers that provide high profit margins? Will the increase of decrease in fees make customers that were previously less profitable more profitable with the higher fees?

Raising the fees makes sense to me...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snob_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good

also, UHNW is only defined as $5M, whereas the stats i posted were from $10M+

FWIW - some posters in this thread appear to not be aware there is a PERSONAL centurion and then there is a BUSINESS centurion card. I assume AMEX created a BUSINESS centurion so that BUSINESS EXPENSES could be charged to the card. Some posters continue to make it sound as if running business expenses through CENT is a bad thing and is somehow unwanted by AMEX or is a deviant way to earn and maintain a CENT card. What's up w/ that ?



I see what you're saying Citi. In this case, our contractor wants a personal card.

FWIW-- I don't think there's any deviant way to earn or maintain a cent card.
I told the story bc I was so surprised that he accepted the 5K initiation fee as a fair and equitable charge.

I wonder what will happen if they get customers to join despite the stiff initiation fee and then continue to dilute benefits.

For example, Kagehitokiri, you said you have no problem paying 10 to maybe 15,000 initiation right now and 2500 to 3000 dollars a year annually. I earn a good living and could certainly pay that kind of money, but I spend a total of 30 dollars on annual fees right now (SPG Amex, though I am looking at adding something else). Not traveling enough to make the card worth the fee. Plus, I guess I have a very high propensity to save, so despite having a generous disposable income, I choose not to dispose of it.

How would you proceed if you paid the initiation fee and then found yourself a year or two later with a diluted card with fewer and fewer perks? (For example what if the card was like the launch Centurion and then lost many of the perks?)

Personally, I would be pretty ticked off. Would they refund any of the initiation? I guess one way that AMEX could see things is that those who paid the initiation will want to remain Centurion longer to amortize the initiation fee.

Not attacking, just wondering...

fuzz



hmmm You definitely made me think about the can of worms Amex would have if they took away a major benefit like Starwood Plat after charging a hefty initiation fee.

Maybe the fee will be "Benefit Insurance"

We can hope, right? ;)

Hate to interrupt the argument [ ;) ]! I've been thinking about these issues for awhile - though only as it pertains to me.

I got the Centurion card with my then $150,000 spending - split evenly between Platinum AMEX and SPG AMEX. I enjoyed the airline elite status but I LOVED the SPG Platinum. It's loss is hardly measurable - well, actually it is. I have 13 nights reserved at a local hotel at $69 per nite on a double stay promo to regain it through Feb 2009.

I am clearly not what they had in mind when they launched this card. Can't quite make the new spend level and almost all of my truly first-class travel has been on points. And almost all of my spending is now on the SPG AMEX. I simply use more points now and reserve a suite. My monthly Centurion spending is often between $1,000 - $2,000 per month with about $20,000 on the SPG.

Why keep it? Not 100% sure, but the fact that I would not be able to get it again (if I missed it or if they ever, doubtfully, restored some glitter to it) keeps me hovering around. I realize that I'm not what they're looking for - they now seem to want those who pay cash and want the upgrades the card gives. So for the meanwhile, I'll hang on and just be glad I had it so good for 2+ years. As for the future, we'll see.


As we've discussed in the past you and I seem to live parallel traveling lives and our view on the Cent card is very similar.

I agree that Amex may have imagined private "jet-setters" when they launched the card, but I bet they appreciate your 200K+ annual spending.


The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the initiation fee will force them to preserve benefits. What a PR nightmare they'll have if they charge it and then take benes away.

I hated it, of course, when they took away *wood Plat, but I see the addition of new benes (like Virgin Gold) as a very positive sign.

What a brilliant marketing concept this Black card was for Amex.

I'm still in awe at all the buzz they've been able to create.

AMEX absolutely tiers/bins customers into categories ... on ... a host of factors ... ([i.e.], number of calls)
Uh oh- does this mean my frequent(? ~5x/mo so far, y'all tell me) use of the Plat Concierge puts me into the "nusiance customer" bin? :)

that probably makes you a good customer.. but i guess it depends on what your requests are

Simple stuff; flowers for my (out-of-state) mother's birthday, last-minute restaurant reservations, concert tix, etc.

So, my answer is..."I don't know but I'll tell you when I see it"...What single event or opportunity *trumps* all of this ? A Double points promotion... Otherwise, I divert my spend away from MR and into other channels (AMEX/spg through 1/31/07, and now am focusing strictly on 2% cashback as much as possible).

Let's see if I have connected the dots. If you can earn two points per dollar that's as good as 2% cash because Membership Rewards points are worth at least $0.01 each? (This is the way I look at Citi Thank You points, they could be redeemed for substantially more, but there is a safe harbor value of $0.01 each that I use to allocate spending.)

The "devaluation" at Starwood Preferred Guest affects only hotel redemptions. I haven't let that influence my planning for airline awards. Airline mileage redemptions through SPG seem to be worth comfortably more than 2%, except for the two carriers linked to Chase: CO and UA, and CO is still available through Membership Rewards. UA is not a factor in Miami, but have you explored redeeming through other Star Alliance carriers (e.g. Aeroplan or ANA) for flights on United?

dennis

marriott does come fairly close to starwood in terms of earning miles from stays, but doesnt have as many transfer partners.

Dennis-

As I've said before, savvy use of SPG points will easily yield much, much more than 1-2 cents, even after the devaluation. Check out the Westin Puerto Vallarta during Christmas 2007. Easily over 7 cents per point.

And if you use extra points for a suite, it really goes crazy. It's just a little more work now and not as good as it was before. But it's not bad. The past is the past. I can still make this work for me.

The past is the past. I can still make this work for me.

Well said ^ . Comparing SPG 2007 to SPG 2006 is irrelevant (unless you think you can discern a trend to predict 2008). The only important comparison is SPG 2007 vs Membership Rewards 2007 vs Club Rewards 2007 vs Thank Your Reward 2007 vs Discover 2% cash etc.

starwood is still BY FAR the program with the highest potential value. tons of expensive lux properties, suites, upgrades, no blackout dates..

and its the best in terms of earning miles with stays. marriott is the ONLY program that comes anywhere near it.

i agree the "devaluation" is blown out of proportion. OTOH some people do only stay in $50/nt hotels.

marriott is the ONLY program that comes anywhere near it.

But not so good when earning points with their credit card.

Let's see if I have connected the dots. If you can earn two points per dollar that's as good as 2% cash because Membership Rewards points are worth at least $0.01 each? (This is the way I look at Citi Thank You points, they could be redeemed for substantially more, but there is a safe harbor value of $0.01 each that I use to allocate spending.)

The "devaluation" at Starwood Preferred Guest affects only hotel redemptions. I haven't let that influence my planning for airline awards. Airline mileage redemptions through SPG seem to be worth comfortably more than 2%, except for the two carriers linked to Chase: CO and UA, and CO is still available through Membership Rewards. UA is not a factor in Miami, but have you explored redeeming through other Star Alliance carriers (e.g. Aeroplan or ANA) for flights on United?

dennis
What I am trying to say is merely earning 1x MR point for $1 spend is not enough attraction for me, because the underlying MR currency is too weak and transfer options too limited. To be fair, part of the blame goes to the airlines because they make it a real chore, practically impossible, to use their base 25K domestic awards, thanks to stringent capacity controls, when I wish to travel on leisure for my family of five. I mostly convert MR to airline points...have little use for them otherwise, so if I can EARN MR points at 2:$1, then I am at least holding parity so when I transfer them to the airline and am forced to convert at the 2x "anytime" award (using AA as an example; I realize they are not a transfer partner for AMEX MR), then it works out. BTW - my main two airlines are CO and AA, so its [not real smart of me to accumulate MR points since they don't transfer to AA and likely never will. I don't travel internationally so the alliance partners don't work for me.

Don't need the MR to spg conversion, even during the reduced conversion 2:1 (instead of 3:1 normally) thanks to the AMEX/spg card. SO - what's left to use MR points for ? I don't think I would ever use their leisure bundle packages which seem to always hover around the 1cent/mile ratio...I did recently dump enough MR points into SWA to get the companion pass and something like 6x RR passes....only to get stopped dead w/ RR's new capacity controls. So, MR these days is a real dead-end in almost any manner I consider...so I avoid earning them whenever possible (thus my CENT card is relatively a dead card for me, by choice). In this preverse scenario, AMEX's trick of raising fees and reducing benefits...make me avoid using the charge card because it only earns MR points. Catch 22.

The 2% cash rebate card, OTOH, is moving more into focus because I conclude I will just take the cash (non-1099 reportable BTW, per Sam's Club) and buy the air tix when I need it/them...or invest or use the cash otherwise. This dynamic really works well now thanks to kayak.com, orbitz.com, etc. where steeply-discounted tickets are usually available.

BTW - I am really intrigued at stevens397 and damon88's self-described profile...they are both very close to mine (except my spend volume seems to be much higher). The spg/PLAT benefit alone was absolutely worth the annual fee - at $1000...now the totality of benefits are marginally worth the annual fee for my travel habits - at $1000. This is why I am really going to be watching AMEX to see if they will improve (maybe) the CENT benefit package once the higher fees kick in. If the best they can muster are French hotel programs, companion pass programs of marginal utility.. and other esoteric programs that don't apply to my profile, then I will move on and take my spend w/ me (keeping the lowly green card to keep my MR alive until I can use them somehow).

Separately, what do you all think of ClubRewards ? Its an enigma to me...except for topping off family accounts, which everyone raves about, I can't get my hands around the "highest and best use" for this one.

But not so good when earning points with their credit card.
youre right ^ i see i forgot to mention that.

the reason marriott comes close via stays is because you can EARN so many points.

but then you DIVIDE to get miles. so if youre just spending, youre making VERY few miles.

again, in terms of
-"cheapest" hotel redemption rates...
-hotel redemptions where you dont care about maximizing point value...
i have NO idea how starwood fares

but in terms of
-earning miles...
-highest possible value...
-overall flexibility in general...
starwood is the best

ILUVCITIBANK, why didnt you use CO/DL/AF/AZ transfers for CO flights to get rid of MR? do you STILL have a ton of MR?

I have been going back and forth with this card. Every time I decide to cancel, they come up with something that keeps me going. I have gone so far as to have them send me info on the differences of the two gold cards, when they finally came up with double miles. This had been one of my biggest complaints with centurion. I had decided on gold over green because with gold you can keep the same card #.

spg platinum will be a loss with some great upgrades but now I will use point to guarantee a suite. Ritz Carlton centurion guarantee upgrades are not what they use to be. This was huge for me, I like to know if I have the upgrade not hope to get it.

A few things that will keep me going this yr. Is double warranty on all amex cards. Centurion benefits carry over to all amex cards. This covers 10k an incident and up to 50k yr.
I also received a 2k gift cert for Judith Ripka jewelry from centurion. Has to be 18k couture collection and I would imagine this won't get one earring but it has value.
Lastly, the 5k fee, I would imagine, will keep me from canceling and then going back if they come up with better benefits. I think they know that.
When I get around to it I will call an see if I would have to pay the 5k.

how has the confirmed upgrade at Ritz Carlton changed?

what about confirmed upgrades at Mandarin Oriental, Peninsula, and Orient Express?

someone posted recently that if you downgrade from Centurion, you can re upgrade within 1 year, with no penalty. not sure if that is still the case..

someone posted recently that if you downgrade from Centurion, you can re upgrade within 1 year, with no penalty. not sure if that is still the case.. <--- I have heard this also but never confirmed.

Kagehitokiri, I have about 400K MR points left; when the double points promo (Nov, Dec, Jan spend doubled above the spend for Oct) points hit, should jump 200K or more. I moved the points into SWA never think CAP CONTROLS would really be a hindrance...oh yes...SWA is all into this now as well, and I could not get 5x ff seats for a trip I needed on lowly SWA, once the KING in "if we have a seat, its yours on award". So, should have looked before I leaped.

This has been a superb thread for making me re-consider my strategies and profile...thanks to all who are iposting. Yes, AMEX's annual fee increase is the core discussion, but really this is turning into a referendum on the "value" of CENT, the value of MR, alternative choices, and highest-best use of points and miles when earned by ccards. KEEP IT COMING.

P.S. I still need some final ideas on value of DC Clubrewards. I could shift some of my spg/amex spend to that card...but darned if I know what I would be doing w/ ClubRewards that I don't already do w/ AMEX/SPG (except now CO and UA transfers are out w/ spg). If I flew BA, I would sit around each year and pick that promo off...but don't anticipate much BA in my immediate future. No fun that DC has a fee to transfer to airlines either (another hurdle for DC/ClubRewards). I really wonder if these credit cards think through the avoidance issues they create...so when DC recovers those few cents out of airline transfers, what they might have done is turned away some spend.

i was excited about DC when i thought you could earn lifetime with Hyatt by transferring, thankfully mia corrrected that assumption before i started using it :D ^

after learning AA can't be used for BA transatlantics, i stopped earning with them.

for me, ML+ is good for RC, MarquisJet, BA, and is the VI ill carry as backup to AX.

and with that amount of MR, my suggestion stands - use CO/DL/AF/AZ/VS transfers (1 in 5 should always have availability i would hope) for CO flights

...although if DC had AA before being bought by CITI that would weaken that thought for AA...

Citi acquired Diners in 1981, the same year AAdvantage and several other frequent flyer programs launched. Diners Club Rewards began 1985, the AAdvantage credit card came later 1987.

http://www.smartertravel.com/frequent-flyer/credit-card-miles-just.html?id=9370

I do have a vague recollection that UA was an original partner in American Express "Membership Miles", which was the original name of "Membership Rewards", but only for a year or two in the early 90s, and I haven't found a mention online. A number of American Express promotional initiatives were cancelled when Mastercard and VISA prohibited member banks from issuing any other card brands, only now are we seeing this undone.

Citi Chairman will not be the only high end American Express product. There is already the UBS card, and I am sure I read that Bank of America will also introduce one. This fits the American Express strategy to capture only the highest spending cardholders from partner banks. There should be more alternative products for Centurion charter members who choose not to pay $2,500.

Citi-- I thought the person who said the card worked best for "international road warriors" nailed it.

You've mentioned that you don't do a lot of international travel and that definitely dilutes the power of your card.


SO - what's left to use MR points for ?


We use all of our MR points for Virgin upgrades. For us, it's been a valuable use of the points.


BTW - now the totality of benefits are marginally worth the annual fee for my travel habits - at $1000.



I agree-- it all comes down to travel habits. Priority Pass isn't worth much unless you find yourself waiting in a lot of airports. We use ours and we love it. Likewise for Star Alliance & Skyteam Gold-- they're useful if you're flying short hops on member airlines. The Hertz CDP for the extra 4 hours rental is another calculable savings. And Delta Gold has eliminated those crazy end of the year mileage runs (John Wayne to Atlanta and back)

We're pretty loyal to Starwood, but every time we try a FHR through Cent we have such a great experience. We still qualified on our own for *wood Plat after our comp status ended and will again next year, but we plan to take advantage of other FHR hotels (and benefits) when the hotels fit into our plans.

Like you-- I hope Amex sweetens the benefits. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have even looked at the card if Starwood Plat hadn't been part of the original package. And speaking of *wood-- though I wish the redemptions hadn't gone up I still think it's the best reward program out there.

drbond mentioned the UBS cards, but they didnt sound very good based on what he listed, especially for the fees, which IIRC were always present even for their top tier clients. and people complain about centurion :D

BOA's current Private Bank VI Sig cards have no additional benefits beyond BOA's own reward program, and being fee free.

...CO and UA transfers are out w/ spg.

These are also gone from Diners. Chase has evidently been very agressive in protecting their affinity partnerships from competing card issuers.

We use all three multi-carrier programs: SPG American Express, Diners Club Rewards and American Express Membership Rewards, and redirect the spending based on promotions. The default pattern is to use SPG Amex as the primary card, Diners for transactions where Amex is not accepted, but if Membership Rewards is offering double points it becomes primary.

We also use a Membership Rewards Options card (The Nest) for recurring household expenses such as newspaper, telephone, cable TV, etc. I don't want to change the card we use each time there is a promotion. The Nest is free, and if you spend $15,000 per calendar year there is a 10,000 point bonus, $15,000 = 25,000 points = 1.67 points per dollar. (Caveats: Options is only worthwhile if linked to a full Membership Rewards account, and this card does not generate an annual summary.)

Diners is much better than the other two for non-Starwood hotel points or awards.

FHR benefits are similar to Virtuoso, and they both have nearly an identical list of participating hotels. Sometimes FHR is a little better, other times Virtuoso.

for me, ML+ is good for RC, MarquisJet, BA, and is the VI ill carry as backup to AX.
What is the Marquis benefit on this card?

FHR benefits are similar to Virtuoso, and they both have nearly an identical list of participating hotels. Sometimes FHR is a little better, other times Virtuoso.

centurion has much better confirmed upgrades, plus free nights.

also, virtuoso does not have anywhere near as many expensive/suite upgrades. many of their properties specifically state that they do not allow upgrades to suites from the previous room category.

OTOH the advantage virtuoso has to platinum is some confirmed upgrades.

and overall, virtuoso's flexibility (like david being able to get virtuoso benefits at non member FS properties) is a major plus.

What is the Marquis benefit on this card?

MarquisJet charters
1. $ rates are noticeably cheaper than Bombardier (Amex)
2. ML+ point redemption rates are better than MR
3. they have promo periods when the redemption rates are cut dramatically

...part of the blame goes to the airlines because they make it a real chore, practically impossible, to use their base 25K domestic awards, thanks to stringent capacity controls, when I wish to travel on leisure for my family of five. ... my main two airlines are CO and AA

Needing five award seats is a problem that we don't face.

I would look at the Merrill+ VISA. No annual fee and absolutely no requirement or pressure to have any other relationship with Merrill Lynch. Earn one point per dollar, redeem 25,000 for airline ticket up to $500 on AA, BA, CO or DL, which covers your two primary carriers.

• No blackout dates or capacity controls
• Fly on any airline
• Travel anywhere in the world
• No Saturday night stay requirements
• Earn frequent flyer miles

21 day advance redemption requirement, waived for 5,000 point penalty. Prefer another carrier, add 5,000 per ticket. Fare over $500, add 2,500 points per $25.

If you spend $50,000 in calendar year Merrill will give you an Admirals Club membership (or Delta Crown Room, but you do not need that with Centurion).

One concern is language in the Merrill+ terms that excludes business use: "purchases made by or for a business or for a business purposes; and unauthorized or fraudulent transactions will not qualify for achievement of +2 or +3 status." " Business-related expenses are not eligible for Merrill Points earnings". I do not know if they enforce these restrictions, but it otherwise appears to be a good match for your requirements.

While we're talking about "back-up cards" my latest love affair is with the Hawaiian Airlines (BofA) credit card. There are always places that won't take Amex and we used to use our Citi AAdvantage card, just to have AA miles available when we needed an upgrade. Then we received an offer for the HA card. Here's what I like about it: 10000 miles with first purchase. 5000 annually when you renew. Holders can SHARE miles (which is very easy to do through the website) and they can be used on not just HA, but other airlines as well (like Virgin).

5000 annually when you renew.

Website shows 2,000 but perhaps you have a different version...

http://www.bankofamerica.com/hawaiian_airlines_site/index.cfm?template=cc_hawaiian_plat

While the annual fee would be higher, if you were to use Diners Club Mastercard for your backup card you would be able to transfer to VS and use for upgrades or one-way awards. You wouldn't seem to lose anything because Diners Club Rewards points also transfer to HA...

http://dinersclubus.com/dce_content/clubrewardsandbenefits/clubrewards/clubrewardscompared

between CO/DL/AF/AZ/VS i would imagine you could get QUITE a few CO economy seats :D

Which is better, paying the Centurion fee or keeping an AMEX Platinum card and paying Quintissentially (or one of their competitors)?

it depends on what you want/value.

centurion concierge is definitely pretty good, unless you want a personal assistant, like that offered (currently) by citi chairman.

quintessentially/etc (although unfortunately no others are priced similarly to quintessentially) certainly have some better sourcing/access/free parties, but the comparison i always make for event tickets is for the miami vice LA premiere. amex - $2750, quintessentially - GBP1900 (so quintessentially is better for those in the UK in terms of event ticket prices) additionally, amex plat could not even get tickets to the London premiere, whereas Quintessentially could, for GBP375 IIRC.

if you just want centurion concierge, and nothing else, you might try merrill+ because (although it does not appear to be 100% confirmed) it seems that merrill uses the same tier of circles for their +3 level that amex does for centurion. OTOH, one poster with both cards stated that +2 was NOT as good as platinum.

i plan on getting centurion when i meet the requirements, and am probably looking more at bluefish and mint down the road, as opposed to quintessentially. although if quintessentially's hotel benefits improve/expand, i would definitely rethink that. bluefish is adding hotel benefits, but i dont think mint specifically offers any.

the last recap thread i made for concierges and FT discussion was here > http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644976&highlight=concierge

Comparing SPG 2007 to SPG 2006 is irrelevant (unless you think you can discern a trend to predict 2008).

In passing, I see that Marriott has also "devalued" points by shifting 500+ properties to a higher category, apparently without advance notification...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=668885

This supports my belief that comparing This Year vs Last Year isn't as important as looking at what the competition has to offer This Year.

Website shows 2,000 but perhaps you have a different version...

http://www.bankofamerica.com/hawaiian_airlines_site/index.cfm?template=cc_hawaiian_plat

While the annual fee would be higher, if you were to use Diners Club Mastercard for your backup card you would be able to transfer to VS and use for upgrades or one-way awards. You wouldn't seem to lose anything because Diners Club Rewards points also transfer to HA...

http://dinersclubus.com/dce_content/clubrewardsandbenefits/clubrewards/clubrewardscompared



Thanks mia--

I'm wondering when they changed the terms, bc I have the invitation in my hand (from May 2006):

10,000 bonus Hawaiian Miles
5,000 additional miles every anniversary

You'll earn 10,000 bonus HawaiianMiles the first time you make a purchase and payment with your card. Plus you'll earn 5,000 miles every anniversary.


of course it also says:

Bank of America has the right to change your terms, rates and fees at any time, for any reason.


Thanks for the head's up-- BofA just told me that (the first year at least) we'll still get the 5K, but it's good to know that they've changed this.


Yet another illustration of how rewards programs are in constant flux. In the last few years I've lost so many benefits and options than I can hardly keep up--



at this point, at least, the niftiest feature of this card is the ability to pool miles. unlike *wood, where it's limited to spg members at the same address, I Believe with HA that all cardholders can pool miles. It came in super handy last week when we were using miles to upgrade a SAN-LIH flight for next xmas. There were only 3 upgradable seats left and we would have lost out if we weren't able to move the miles online while the booking agent was on the phone.

although some guy did post once that he was able to negotiate with BOA to get a bunch of miles without getting a bunch of cards.. by simply paying multiple annual fees lump sum. cant remember if it was hawaiian or US he said he was doing it with. not sure how to search for his post either.

...niftiest feature of this card is the ability to pool miles...

Drifting pretty far from Centurion topic, but Diners also allows points to be transferred to anyone's airline or hotel account, with a few exceptions required by the receiving program.

(back to amex > ) whereas with MR its sometimes possible, but technically not permitted.

(also of value in this thread because some people are discussing alternatives if they are dropping amex completely)

(...with MR its sometimes possible, but technically not permitted.>>

Correct, and Diners Club Rewards has a greater number of transfer partners than Membership Rewards.

Being a sony cierge member now gives one access to quintessentially.

Being a sony cierge member now gives one access to quintessentially.

:eek: where did you get this information?

what i suspect is that the partnership goes the other way, that cierge benefits are available to quintessentially members...

Being a sony cierge member now gives one access to quintessentially.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "sony cierge?"

Cierge is Sony's personal shopping program. Membership is included with Platinum and (I assume) Centurion cards. Some previous threads...

2006
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=622282&highlight=cierge

2005
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=472471&highlight=cierge

2002
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140806&highlight=cierge

Vip is included with plat card and cierge for black card.

I didn't realize there were two levels because I receive some emails from Sony VIP and others from Cierge. In any event it would be helpful if you could reply to message #225 because it makes no sense that Sony's free program would include use of a paid service, except on a very limited basis...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7383632&postcount=225

in germany you have to pay 800Euro if you request the centurion and they didnt sent you the invitation.

but 5000 USD thats insane. but i am sure people will pay it.

cheers dp

Good points. I sure hope you're right and they don't drop the spend requirement. I know tons of people who would just pay to get the card, and benefits would get dilluted even more.

dont you get the concept?

if a person asks for a centurion, and they think you are worthwile to get it, you have to pay 5000USD and meet the criteria of 250.000USD/year.

you hit 250.000 /year , they might sent you an inviation after checking on your spending habits etc. and if they get the ok, you get the centurion inviation which seems to be 1000USD.

in germany this is in place since the beginning, if you ask for it you pay 800Euro but you still have to spent an not know amount (around 150.000 Euro?) to get it .

anyway, its not the US but germany will get a raise in the membership fee + " new beneifits" too, end of 2007...

amex will never waive the 250K requirement, they might do 350K , that could be possible.

dp

I didn't realize there were two levels because I receive some emails from Sony VIP and others from Cierge. In any event it would be helpful if you could reply to message #225 because it makes no sense that Sony's free program would include use of a paid service, except on a very limited basis...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7383632&postcount=225

Yes, please!

I fear that he probably got me excited erroneously :-(

derpelikan, in the US they have not been inviting. only one poster has said they know someone who received a recent invite. (after these changes)

edit - seeing weez's post, i guess that changed and i missed it? i dont recall reading any posts about invites since it changed from $100K to $250K, other than the one recently after the fee increase.

and im assuming quintessentially members have access to cierge, just like centurion cardholders. that would seem to more make sense. the only partners that provide quintessentially that i know of are eos airlines, 20 pine condos, and the london nyc hotel.

I was invited twice, once about 18 months ago after reaching the then 150K requirement and again this past october or november shortly after reaching the 250K requirement.

(back to amex > ) whereas with MR its sometimes possible, but technically not permitted.

(also of value in this thread because some people are discussing alternatives if they are dropping amex completely)


although sometime in the last few years, the ability to transfer MR into supplementary card holder's FF accounts was added. We do it all the time.

I read in the 2007 press release on the Amex site that the fee for Plat cards the renew after 1 May 2007 will now be $450 per year from $395. I only keep it so I can get home if I crack my skull overseas (don't laugh, Mom did that in London last year), and the airport lounge access. I always debate leeping it as I have the Delta, SPG, Hilton and business Delta and SPG. I am afraid that if I give it up I will never get it back!!

JudyJFLA

I read in the 2007 press release on the Amex site that the fee for Plat cards the renew after 1 May 2007 will now be $450 per year...

Discussion here...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=666540

With recent steep drop in stock market, and now daily news that the economy is at best slowing, if not declining a bit, and then with (seems like) all major affinity programs I know of racheting up their programs by magnitudes faar greater than the rate of inflation (Marriott, Starwood), and now comes AMEX attempting to institute an incredible "initiation" fee and jacking up rates for their PLAT cardholders...I have to wonder if some of these increases may backfire on these various institutions.

How does it backfire on a hotel ? All of a sudden, those last 10% unfilled rooms that award stayers used to absorb...go unfilled....as ff and affinity members correctly realize the ROI is poor and shift to other brands or other affinity credit cards (me - I am headed for 2% cash-back as fast as I can retreat, and I was a fanboy for spg/amex and various co-branded affinity cards over the years such as AA/CITI). I will be bemused this year if all of a sudden Marriott and Starwood sees a) a shift of cash-paying customers moves away due to retaliatory anti-brand reasons, and b) concurrent REDUCTION of affinity points issued (sold), implying a reduction in demand for those points. If these two dynamics do happen, some of those excess profits forecast in these brand managers spreadsheets...may not realize.

As an investor and businessperson myself, I fundamentally recognize and appreciate maximizing profit margin, ROI issues, and "take care of the shareholder" mentality. But, as a consumer, I am appalled at these sorts of jacking up of rates, fees, and prices, as if they can never end. What AA (and to be fair, all major airlines) has done to implement "gotcha" fees in the past two years...has done nothing to me except make me avoid the airlines, one by one, as they rolled these egregious fees out. Yes, I am about out of airlines to avoid now ( :) ), but there are still ways to minimize the impact.

My theory - the pendulum has simply swung WAAY TO FAAR, and now hotels and airlines, IF WE ARE GENUINELY IN THE MIDST OF AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, even if slight, will start to feel some pinch from their greedy (out of proportion) increases. Thus, I believe it somewhat predictable that Starwood & Marriott hotel owners will wonder this year..."why can't we fill our last 10% of rooms"...or "where have all of our leisure, affinity award stayers gone this year"...they will only have done it to themselves. I leave Hilton out of this debate, to a degree, since they had their meltdown last year (2005) and arguably their timing was much better to have implemented devaluation.

If, OTOH, the economy stays very strong and affluent, well...guess the rich will get richer and these brands will continue to gouge w/ their new-found strength.

the only people starwood hurt with their devaluation are people who want the cheapest/fastest to earn hotel awards.

i dont have a clue what the best program is for those people.

but starwood still has by far the best overall hotel awards, and is the best for earning miles from both stays and cc spending

only marriott comes close with earning from stays, and is also the only other program to offer high value hotel awards (RC)

With recent steep drop in stock market, and now daily news that the economy is at best slowing, if not declining a bit..., those last 10% unfilled rooms that award stayers used to absorb...go unfilled

Program changes are reactive, they trail behind market conditions. This year's redemption levels reflect last year's occupancy rates. Nonetheless, I'm inclined to think that an economic downturn will increase redemptions because we would rather spend points or miles than cash when we see less value in our retirement accounts ;) .

On the other hand, if you are right, Starwood et.al. can temporarily rollback the increase by holding a redemption "sale" requiring fewer points.

With recent steep drop in stock market, and now daily news that the economy is at best slowing, if not declining a bit, and then with (seems like) all major affinity programs I know of racheting up their programs by magnitudes faar greater than the rate of inflation (Marriott, Starwood), and now comes AMEX attempting to institute an incredible "initiation" fee and jacking up rates for their PLAT cardholders...I have to wonder if some of these increases may backfire on these various institutions.

{SNIP}



I still disagree with you. The people who run these programs are "investors and businessmen" too, just like you. The difference is that they are experts in keeping rooms and seats filled. They know in advance what the impact of these moves will be, and it will help them, not hurt them. If I were a shareholder in any of these companies, I would be happy about these changes.

the economy does have an impact on the spending of most people and small businesses.

although mia's point is also interesting. that people will become more concerned about maximizing value. which goes back to - different people value different things.

OTOH, starwood and amex are both large global corporations, meaning US market changes do not necessarily mean huge global changes.

aviators, it was not a "yes/no", agree or disagree posting...more a rhetorical question w/ some basic rationale and hoping to get some input.

As for giving them credit for being "investors and businesspeople", hotels go bankrupt and hotels re-flag literally every day, which means "somebody did something wrong", so I don't give them so much credit as you must.

Just as they could not keep rooms filled post-911, and the pendulum swuing *too far* in the direction of the consumer, I am simply postulating the pendulum may have swung too far the other way.

Gosh - take a look at thread after thread in spg, marriott, and this amex thread...people are switching brands and taking business elsewhere right before our eyes. And many of these customers are not lightweights w/ their respective brands.

My STANDING PHILOSOPHY is if flyertalkers are doing "x", then it is a decent assumption to this the trend can be extrapolated to non-flyertalkers.

These forums are where these issues are debated, and action take by some sophisticated consumers. I think you give far too much credit to the so-called managers of these hotel chains and airlines, and too little credit to the relative leverage of Joe Consumer. At times, business has the leverage...and then at other times Joe Consumer has leverage.

I do not in anyway think AMEX raising their fees or spg / marriot devaluing their currency is an evil thing. it is what it is...business trying to optimize their ROI, while we consumers try to optimize ours.

So when you say "you disagree", I respond to say, "to what" ? :)

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separately, Mia, no doubt business has the advantage right now...we just saw how much relative value spg had, and now AMEX after April. The unanswered question is are they right or not ? Excellent comment that spg has a tool to counter the effects of their devaluation (promotional reduced spg awards), so we'll keep an eye out for spg to see if they sense a negative hit w/ their change.

aviators, it was not a "yes/no", agree or disagree posting...more a rhetorical question w/ some basic rationale and hoping to get some input.

But I can read your opinion through the rhetoric, so I'm offering mine and calling it a disagreement. It's what forums are for :-)


Gosh - take a look at thread after thread in spg, marriott, and this amex thread...people are switching brands and taking business elsewhere right before our eyes. And many of these customers are not lightweights w/ their respective brands.


Yeah, they're switching from Marriott to SPG, and SPG to Marriott!


My STANDING PHILOSOPHY is if flyertalkers are doing "x", then it is a decent assumption to this the trend can be extrapolated to non-flyertalkers.


For the most part, this is a reasonable assumption.

flyertalkers are not representative at all, because they are extremely well informed regarding loyalty programs, plan most of their travel around them, and even do runs for status.

the percentage of people like that, out of the whole, is not that large is it? most people don't have a clue. people at both the very top and very bottom, in terms of disposable assets(whether personal or business) don't care (more than enough and not enough money respectively)

OTOH FT is not only representative of, but also influences the "loyalty program user" market. its clear programs like starwood recognize that, with Starwood Lurker on the forums so often.

although actually, im overstating this. most people are not concerned with loyalty programs, but many DO probably have some form of brand loyalty, just because they are familiar with, and like certain aspects of a particular brand.

I think *because* flyertalkers are "more" well-informed than the average Joe Traveler, "we" make our decisions ahead of the pack and migrate to whatevever program has the most bang for the buck. To the "average joe", he collects his points and miles...and then wonders..."hmm, I thought that hotel was only 8K points a night, now its 12K...what happened" ? And then he finds out...and is not amused...and changes programs out of disgust (or loses interest and abandons the program, which most experts tell us that a huge number of points and miles never get redeemed to the airlines' and hotels' glee). So, yes, I agree there is a lag in terms of mass exodus to a different program by the majority due to relative slowness of information flow, but the "moves" and "migrations" still happen. So, what we all decide and do here, I believe, easily extrapolates into mass movements over time.

in effect, I believe FTers are a *leading indicator* of any given program's standing amongst fellow FTers because we react much quicker to changes (and discuss them publicly) than Joe Traveler, who tags along blissfully ignorant until he/she tries to redeem their points or miles only to discover they didn't read the fine print in Aug's bill or read that little email amongst the junk email...ie the same forces that we make our decisions on...still apply to Joe Traveler but over a longer time.

I predicted now over two years ago that aadvantage's milesaaver implementation (capacity control scheme) would have negative consequences on Citibank's program...and nowadays we see all sorts of Citibank AAdvantage promotions. Not the venerable 2 for 1 yet which I consider to be the gold standard for an affinity program on the EARNING side, but still far more promotions than I had seen in years prior when aadvantage was actually user friendly. Though I don't have time to chase it down, I am fairly certain Citi's purchase of aadvantage miles from AA must be waay down from 2 yrs ago and prior. Why ? Once people realized that aadvantage was no longer credible, they, like me, took our/their business elsewhere. I did it instantly once milesaaver went into effect because apparent aadvantage was faar, faar different than it had been, whereas Joe Traveler had to bump against capacity controls a few times before they took their (preferrred affinity card) business elsewhere. Yes, this is to a degree conjecture because I don't take time to read Citi's annual report...but I know that I have personally convinced many, many 5 and 6-figure anual spend customers to abandon the Citi aadvantage card and change to the spg/amex card...and I now am advising them all to consider the Sams Club 2% cash-back as the preferred affinity card based on what starwood just did w/ their program.

we react much quicker to changes (and discuss them publicly)good points, especially in terms of brand loyalty i think. starwood is smart to have employees on FT.

if you dont mind, id be very curious to learn more about your preferences here >

do you choose to use hilton more than starwood?
do you value hotel awards that are "cheap" / quickly obtained?

... experts tell us that a huge number of points and miles never get redeemed to the airlines' and hotels' glee).

I do not think every decision made by American Express, Citi, AAdvantage or SPG bears the hallmark of genius, but I do not believe they intend to discourage redemptions. Loyalty programs do expect a certain percentage of "breakage", but not a high rate. The program has little value unless the members are "engaged", and to the extent that people become discouraged and stop collecting points or miles the program fails. The best managers know this and do not regard orphaned accounts as beneficial. There may be people in other departments at airlines or hotel chains who look at unredeemed miles or points with delight, but I think they are not the decision makers.

I was hoping you would have an opportunity to look at the Merrill+ program that I described in an earlier post to see if it would allow you to use AA or CO for 25,000 points per flight with no capacity controls?

good points, especially in terms of brand loyalty i think. starwood is smart to have employees on FT.

if you dont mind, id be very curious to learn more about your preferences here >

do you choose to use hilton more than starwood? I am just starting to focus on hilton; I am a diamond via a special challenge I worked up w/ them a year ago, and now will re-qualify diamond via good ol matress runs to a local Hampton.

do you value hotel awards that are "cheap" / quickly obtained? I don't quite understand what you mean "cheap" ? I personally prefer to use awards to stay at places I would never want to pay out of pocket, so "prime season at resorts" is my classic use of awards...several examples are a St.Regis/Aspen ski trip (4 rooms x 5 nights a couple of years ago), Whistler twice in last 3 yrs (4 rooms x 5 nights, both times), and then most-recently Sheraton/Steamboat (4 rooms x 5 nights again). All ski trips to a resort during peak week (Dec 26 thru Jan 1st). For the future, I have Westin Maui booked (award) for Christmas this yr (pre-spg point dilution, done Feb 28th :) ). I do recognize spg still uniquely fulfills this ambition of trying to stay at high-end places during peak weeks, due to no blackout, but IMO their gross devaluation is now a de facto blackout , at least for the newly-created CAT 7 properties and infflationary CAT 6s (peak season rates). In a preverse way, I don't think any can argue that spg doesn't have blackouts...they just do it via jacking up the points required to absurd levels and adeptly avoiding have to use the dreaded term "capacity control" or "blackout". Cute.

And I would sell you a bridge in swampland for only $20MM...no, I don't technically own the swampland, but if you can come up w/ $20MM I can come up w/ the swampland. SPG has set such high rates now...that they have little fear (these ultra-high-end hotels) an award-bearing guest will come up expecting rooms these days. Point is that spg set such a rate as to be essentially prohibitive from being used...a de facto capacity control. I give them credit for doing what Marriott, Hilton, and Hyatt haven't figured out yet - how to advertise "no blackout" yet have a very effective one.

I was hoping you would have an opportunity to look at the Merrill+ program that I described in an earlier post to see if it would allow you to use AA or CO for 25,000 points per flight with no capacity controls?
I have not had time to study that program, but plan to and I appreciate your mention of it. However, I do keep a "hip-pocket" program loaded w/ points, called "Eagle Points", by USAA (the insurer but also my credit card issuing bank), which is modeled after Capital One's program (21-day advance required, SAT night stay). The booking process is a little cumbersome...they (some brand "x" travel agency contracted by eagle points people) actually purchase the ticket but I have some interaction and flexibility and can tell them the explicit flights I want as long as tix price stays under $500 for domestic US, and under certain dollar amounts up to and incl FC Internationalf fares. its about a 2 cent effective value. Not stupendous, and many FTers would laugh at the prospect of using miles or these quasi-cash awards to fly domestic...but hey, its all I need in my travel patterns. Since so many airline awards now force me to burn 25Kx2 for domestic US coach awards, for my family of five that's 125K...too much...I am finding I go w/ the eagle point paid tix program more and more.