Southwest Rapid Rewards - Kelly: Southwest still deciding whether to go with assigned seats

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0220biz-southwest0220kellyintro.html

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Whether Southwest will switch to assigned seating: "My gut has changed at least three times. I really don't want to prejudge that at this point. What I have been very proud of is that our company has matured to the point where it can expertly take on a heavy question like that and research it very thoroughly. I'm just very comfortable we're going to make the right decision, whatever it is."

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I think this means no, they are not going to go to assigned seats.

"I'm just very comfortable we're going to make the right decision, whatever it is."
Now I can relax, because I know that the right decision is something very close to the current system. :cool:

my favorite part is where he referenced new coke.. meaning why change something successful

did he mean to say "I'm just p***ed because we spent millions of dollars trying to get this question answered, when we were doing things right all along"?

if this becomes true/final, at least now they can tell their corporate customers "look we spent this $$ doing these studies--abc seating isn't just because we said so, it's really a benefit"

I thought WN had assigned seating. I almost always get a seat I like, I can't do that on the other airlines ;)

I wish they'd sell the exit rows, if they don't assign any other seats on the plane. The only thing keeping me from using WN for half my travel is that I'm 6' 6" and really like to pre-reserve an exit row.

I wish they'd sell the exit rows, if they don't assign any other seats on the plane. The only thing keeping me from using WN for half my travel is that I'm 6' 6" and really like to pre-reserve an exit row.

Yeah... but be careful what you wish for. If they did that, then it would likely be the first 4 people to buy their tickets that would get the exit rows. If you don't buy your tickets way in advance then you would never have a chance at them.

Yeah... but be careful what you wish for. If they did that, then it would likely be the first 4 people to buy their tickets that would get the exit rows. If you don't buy your tickets way in advance then you would never have a chance at them.

If that happened (first four purchasers always bought them), my economics profs would tell me that the airline had priced them too cheaply. ;)

Raise the price and/or require Full Fare to be entitled to buy the "exit row supplement." That should solve the problem you envisioned. :)

Well it might not be the first four... :p ... but it would have to be a pretty high price to not get takers well before many people buy their tickets.

Under the current system, I get exit row more than 60% of the time. I almost never got exit row as a 2P on United. That, combined with the lack of change fees explains why I changed my loyalty from UA(Ted) to WN.

Oh yea, the lower prices at WN didn't hurt either!

I'd have to see the new system for assigned seats before I could say if it was better than the existing.

Also, I think there are 5 exit row seats, not 4 that would be worth purchasing. The most coveted (at least for me) is 12F, with no seat in front of it. Then 11A and 11C. Lastly, 11D and 11E.

An interesting question might be -- What would you pay for 12F, 11A, 11C, 11D or 11E?

What would you pay for a space available open middle? That is -- WN will charge you $X if and only if the flight is more than 2/3rd full but they have specifically blocked the middle seat for you.

I think I'd pay about $20 for a guaranteed 12F and maybe $10 extra if the middle was open.

I almost never got exit row as a 2P on United.

That's because exit rows are blocked ahead of time for 1Ps or higher. ;)



An interesting question might be -- What would you pay for 12F, 11A, 11C, 11D or 11E?



For 11C I would pay: On a transcon, at least $100. On a midcon, at least $50. On short hops, at least $20-$30.




What would you pay for a space available open middle? That is -- WN will charge you $X if and only if the flight is more than 2/3rd full but they have specifically blocked the middle seat for you.



I would rather not pay, b/c its easy enough to end up with the middle empty as it is - but if it were to go to an assigned seat system with an option to hard block the middle and you couldn't otherwise get one like you can currently... i would pay: $75 on a transcon, $40 on a midcon and $15 for a shot hop.

Southwest has an excellent grasp on the use of technology - their website is hands down the best in the airline biz; perhaps they could employ a web-based online auction of the exit row seats that would end at some pre-determined point before boarding. You'd bid on your favorite seat (and an alternate or two) and see if you valued it more than everyone else. If you won more than one exit row seat, your credit card would be charged for all of them - and after you selected your favorite then your other winning seats would be assigned to the next highest bidder for each seat (whose card would also be charged for their winning bid).

Why would the winner be charged for all of their winning bids instead of just one? Southwest could use the money, what with fuel costs and all. Plus the extra revenue would help pay for the auction. That, and to provide an incentive to bid on only the one in which you want to sit.

perhaps they could employ a web-based online auction of the exit row seats

I'd be stunned if Southwest implemented anything even half as complex as what you proposed. The new system needs to be explainable in 1 or 2 sentences. E.g., "Aisle and window seats in the first 10 rows are available for preassignment only to full fare ticketholders or Companion Pass holders starting 24 hours before departure."

Well it might not be the first four... :p ... but it would have to be a pretty high price to not get takers well before many people buy their tickets.

I would not pay $1 because most of my flights are < 1.5 hours and I always get an aisle seat with my A group pass.

Ironically it would be something I would pay for on legacy airlines for transcons and longer flights. I would pay even more for a guaranteed empty middle seat (again not even $1 on WN because I am either flying with my family and/or haven't had any full flights lately).

I would also pay extra (even on WN) if they would disable the seat recline in the row in front of me. Ironically they do this for free on ryanair, but of course they take it back with mediocre pitch. :rolleyes:

I almost never got exit row as a 2P on United.

Fly 25k more per year. :D

One thing you might want to do since you are that tall is see if you can preboard. I know that they don't allow preboards to take exit rows, but I remember there was this REAL tall teenager flying southwest and they allowed him to preboard for the room. He was just old enough to sit in an exit row.


I wish they'd sell the exit rows, if they don't assign any other seats on the plane. The only thing keeping me from using WN for half my travel is that I'm 6' 6" and really like to pre-reserve an exit row.

One thing you might want to do since you are that tall is see if you can preboard. I know that they don't allow preboards to take exit rows, but I remember there was this REAL tall teenager flying southwest and they allowed him to preboard for the room. He was just old enough to sit in an exit row.

No Kidding? Man oh man, our 13 yr old could take advantage of that. He's 6'6" with size 18 feet. We try to get UG to F for him on US, but it's getting more difficult over time. I have purchased F for him on two long flights in the past year and took the UG myself.

No Kidding? Man oh man, our 13 yr old could take advantage of that. He's 6'6" with size 18 feet. We try to get UG to F for him on US, but it's getting more difficult over time. I have purchased F for him on two long flights in the past year and took the UG myself.

IIRC, you need to be age 15+ to sit in the exit row.

No Kidding? Man oh man, our 13 yr old could take advantage of that. He's 6'6" with size 18 feet. We try to get UG to F for him on US, but it's getting more difficult over time. I have purchased F for him on two long flights in the past year and took the UG myself.

Sounds like dad needs to become CP. ;)

I wish they'd sell the exit rows, if they don't assign any other seats on the plane. The only thing keeping me from using WN for half my travel is that I'm 6' 6" and really like to pre-reserve an exit row.


I have a friend who is 6'10", he limps up to the SW desk and says he has recently broke his hip and needs additional time/assistance boarding. They pre-board him nearly every time.

I have a friend who is 6'10", he limps up to the SW desk and says he has recently broke his hip and needs additional time/assistance boarding. They pre-board him nearly every time.
If his hip is "broken" he shouldn't be in the exit row. Why can't he be honest and say what he's trying to do?

Also, I think there are 5 exit row seats, not 4 that would be worth purchasing. The most coveted (at least for me) is 12F, with no seat in front of it. Then 11A and 11C. Lastly, 11D and 11E.

An interesting question might be -- What would you pay for 12F, 11A, 11C, 11D or 11E?

What would you pay for a space available open middle? That is -- WN will charge you $X if and only if the flight is more than 2/3rd full but they have specifically blocked the middle seat for you.

I think I'd pay about $20 for a guaranteed 12F and maybe $10 extra if the middle was open.
A more interesting question would be whether (a) SWA is allowed (by the FAA) to guarnatee an exit row seat, and (b) whether the FAA thus allows one to be sold at extra cost (and/or whether SWA themselves would want to sell a seat you might have to give up once on the plane!).

Keep in mind that the FA and/or captain has final say on who can sit in an exit row (since it's FAA rules that have to be interpreted). They have to have the authority to move you without going through the hassle of having to issue a refund. Therefore all other airlines have simply set up exit row reservation as a perk of a status, but not something you can pay extra for. (Some airlines have let you pay to set it in particular rows, but those have been "better" non-exit rows.)

At airlines like AA where you can reserve an exit row seat online (if you have status), there's a page of exit row requirements they show you that you have to confirm you accept before you can reserve the seat, and one of things you confirm is that you may have to give the seat up! It's one thing to agree to that when it's simply status that gave you the right to select that seat, it'd be another thing if you have to pay $$ money for each such reservation (cancellable after your boarding pass has been taken and thus hard to "track").

What Southwest could do more easily than anything mentioned (auctions???) is to add a lower status than CP that would have only one benefit: of preferred seating reservations. They could set it, for example, at any number of annual credits they wish (or something other than just annual credit count). They wouldn't have to tie it to the existing CP status, just to have the concept of a status.

With CP status tough to get unless you are flying the bonus routes (2x or 3x) or unless you get lots of credits using Cr. Cards -- the number of CPs issued is likely down quite a bit. Wonder how many are out there? But for WN to have another level of status for Exit Row seating? Can be done easily with computer giving one a "Priority Seating status" with, say, 50 credits per year -- and do it on a 1 Jan to 31 Dec timeframe (good for next 12 mo) to keep it simple. Of course, CP holders would easily qualify anyway.

This would be a great "perk" as Exit Row seats are a nice benefit. But how do they control when fewer than all Exit row seats are pre-booked?

Fly 25k more per year. :D

Seems easier to just fly on Southwest. No minimum flying, just a little bit of planning ahead and I get exit rows most of the time. The time "wasted" insuring that I get an "A" boarding pass (be close to computer or cell phone with Internet access), plus arriving slightly early at the gate is far less than the time that would be wasted flying around the country an excess 25K miles, not to mention the cost of the mileage run.

The "luxury" of an exit row is far easier and cheaper to obtain than that same luxury on United.

my favorite part is where he referenced new coke.. meaning why change something successful

did he mean to say "I'm just p***ed because we spent millions of dollars trying to get this question answered, when we were doing things right all along"?


All I know is that the only real reason I haven't tried out WN is because of the lack of assigned seating. From the perspective of traveler of other airlines, I think it makes WN look kind of silly.

The process must work, but all I can think of is a mad rush to get certain seats. On other airlines, the mad rush is online, 24 hrs before departure -- which seems a lot more sane to me.

This perception has to take $$ out of WN's pockets. The only question is whether it's less than the $$ it keeps in WN's pockets due to loyal travelers who can't get this feature anywhere else. I think that's why they spent all the money on the study.

The process must work, but all I can think of is a mad rush to get certain seats.

There is only one aisle and jetway. It is awfully difficult to rush for anything given those circumstances.

There is only one aisle and jetway. It is awfully difficult to rush for anything given those circumstances.

Like I said, the process must work.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just suggesting why the question is a hard one -- perception being a barrier to taking frequent travelers away from other airlines.

I'm just suggesting why the question is a hard one -- perception being a barrier to taking frequent travelers away from other airlines.

That Kelly's dilemma: If the price of fighting incorrect but common perceptions is changing to a system that provides inferior results, is that price too high? What people want will change once they get it and see that it's worse than what they had. The grass is always greener...

That Kelly's dilemma: If the price of fighting incorrect but common perceptions is changing to a system that provides inferior results, is that price too high? What people want will change once they get it and see that it's worse than what they had. The grass is always greener...

Inferior as measured by what?

Seems to me they'd gain customers and not lose any current ones (where are the unassigned-seat-fans going to go?)

Like I said, the process must work.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just suggesting why the question is a hard one -- perception being a barrier to taking frequent travelers away from other airlines.

In terms of getting a good seat, in order of likelihood:

1. Assigned seat airline where you have elite status, or assigned seat airline without elite program if you book early.

2. Southwest.

3. Assigned seat airline where you do not have elite status, or assigned seat airline without elite status if you book short notice.

Since Southwest does not have much of elite status (CP holders, RR general open to everyone, non-RR are the only distinctions), assigning seats at the time of booking does not make Southwest more attractive to short notice travelers (typically business travelers and those paying the highest fares). Although offering seat assignments at checkin time may work and would produce a result somewhat similar to the current system.

Inferior as measured by what?

Seems to me they'd gain customers and not lose any current ones (where are the unassigned-seat-fans going to go?)

If you are a short notice business traveler who does not fly enough on one airline to make elite status, then Southwest's unassigned seating is a competitive advantage over the legacies. Going to seats assigned at the time of booking would eliminate that competitive advantage, without making Southwest any more attractive otherwise, due to the lack of elite programs that other airlines use to favor groups of travelers other than by first book first seat choice.

Note also that the short notice business traveler without elite status often cannot get a seat pre-assigned on a legacy airline anyway, since the last N seats are not pre-assignable (e.g. exit rows, blocked middles for elite passengers, wiggle room to move passengers around in case special needs passengers appear, hiding the fact that the flight is oversold, etc.).

Note also that the short notice business traveler without elite status often cannot get a seat pre-assigned on a legacy airline anyway, since the last N seats are not pre-assignable (e.g. exit rows, blocked middles for elite passengers, wiggle room to move passengers around in case special needs passengers appear, hiding the fact that the flight is oversold, etc.).

On CO, for example, all of these seats open up 24 hrs before departure.

If you are a short notice business traveler who does not fly enough on one airline to make elite status, then Southwest's unassigned seating is a competitive advantage over the legacies. Going to seats assigned at the time of booking would eliminate that competitive advantage, without making Southwest any more attractive otherwise, due to the lack of elite programs that other airlines use to favor groups of travelers other than by first book first seat choice.

Right, but will WN lose these people? Where would they go, they have the same problems on a legacy - even worse given the inequality due to status levels.

But those that like a seat assignment will put WN on their shopping list once again - including biz travelers. 32" pitch, leather seats, Nabisco snacks, assigned seats - not a bad option for a 1-2 hour flight!

Right, but will WN lose these people? Where would they go, they have the same problems on a legacy - even worse given the inequality due to status levels.

Such travelers who preferred WN on the basis of seat selection at boarding time may end up scattering randomly. WN may not lose all of them, but could lose some or many of them.

But those that like a seat assignment will put WN on their shopping list once again - including biz travelers. 32" pitch, leather seats, Nabisco snacks, assigned seats - not a bad option for a 1-2 hour flight!

Short notice business travelers may find WN with seats assigned at booking to be unattractive. If such travelers would get elite on some other airline, they will still prefer some other airline; if not, then WN with seats assigned at booking would not be significantly better than any other airline.

Forget the seat assignments, give me a preferred security check point! I have been caught behind "Ma and Pa Kettle" with their big belt buckles, huge key rings, and 12# of metal in their pockets while they go through the scanner three times until a more intelligent TSA agent clues them in. And that's after standing in line 45 mins or more with everything short of live chickens.

It makes sense to allow those who travel very frequently to have preference for security. It would be even better to perform an IQ test first, but I suppose that won't ever happen.....

I got caught once too many times behind thousands of pleasure travelers at PHX when I was traveling on business. Nope, give me the Elite line before even considering seat assignments. Then, we can talk about that too.

But it won't happen so why should I even bring it up as a frequent biz traveler?

...while they go through the scanner three times until a more intelligent TSA agent clues them in

What airport are you based out of, and why does it get the intelligent TSA agent?

Nod to your post, though. Priority security line is one of the best benefits of my status on other airlines.

However, many times that line is full of some pretty daft people as well, and is often longer than the non-status line -- due to the people in the priority line not realizing they can, you know, utilize any of the xray machines, not just the one nearest the mouth of the priority line.

That's when I duck under into the empty non-status line, go right through, and chuckle as I walk past the blue suits with the blank stares.

But it won't happen so why should I even bring it up as a frequent biz traveler?

Well, at PDX, the list of elite cards that lets you into the elite security line includes a regular old Southwest Rapid Rewards card.

Well, at PDX, the list of elite cards that lets you into the elite security line includes a regular old Southwest Rapid Rewards card.

shhhhh that's a secret... a friend was so upset at me when I told him I've used my WN Rapid reward inkjet-printout of a membership card at elite lines.

He nearly missed a flight out of Pit and nearly got detained by the TSA for cutting in the security line, despite every passenger allowing him to cut and a different airport employee who told him to ask the passengers if it was ok then he could cut.

Bumping this thread because it's the most recent seating thread, and the article sheds only a little new light...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.bz.southwest19jun19,0,5316721.story

Southwest has for months been studying whether to abandon or modify its open-seating policy, which it has insisted is necessary to get planes in and out of airport gates rapidly. "For 30 years, the primary feedback we got from our customers is that they preferred assigned seating, but we wanted to do a lot of careful research first. What we're looking at is still comparing our options.

"You'll see some changes soon," [Gary Kelly] said, without elaborating.