MilesBuzz! - Handling Miles in a divorce?

I have a friend (no, really!) who is going through a divorce at the moment, where the husband accumulated a substantial amount of miles/points due to business travel while thye were married.

In the settlement, my friend wants to know if these should be treated as assets, to be divided more-or-less equally.

Does anyone have any opinion on this or know of where the case has come up before? I won't tell you right now which party my friend is (husband or wife) so I won't bias your response.

(Any advice given will be taken freely without liability, and a divorce lawyer will be retained (is already, actually) to give my friend the final recommendation.)

Thanks to all!

No I do not think of it that way. They should NOT be considered as assets to be divided equally.

He earned them for time he spent in a plane, if she has an FF account, she earned them when she flew. This isn't cash, and as the airlines state quite clearly they do not have a cash value. Therefore they probably won't be and shouldn't be treated as community property.

In most cases, if the miles were accrued during the marriage, the miles would become a marital asset and therefore subject to becoming part of the settlement. (In states that are not common property states, marital assets include most things that either were acquired or increased in value during the course of the marriage.)
Of course, the tricky part would be to assign a value to the miles, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

There's no reason that the miles themselves would need to be divided. Rather, they -- or more specifically, their monetary value -- would become part of the pool of assets to be divided. For example, if the assets get split 50-50 and the miles are valued at $10,000, one person could get all of the miles, and the other would get $10,000 worth of other assets.

Miles are not taxable (yet)and as others have stated do not have a cash value, if the airlines do not treat them as a liability for accounting reasons, your friend shouldn't treat them as an asset. Perhaps, he/she could offer the soon to be ex a one-way ticket somewhere far away.

Do you think we should make potential spouses sign pre-nups specifically pertaining to mileage?



[This message has been edited by Leisuremiles (edited 06-18-2002).]

Have you encouraged your friends to go to counseling? It would be far better if their marriage could be saved than to go through a divorce. I will keep him and his wife in my prayers.

Thanks Flyingrev, unfortunately I think it is beyond counseling.

Thanks to everyone else, too. I found an article from the '98 InsideFlyer - looks like each airline/program has a different policy, regardless of what the divorce decree (or will) may say.

Now, I'm interested if there are any (legal) precedents out there?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Leisuremiles:
your friend shouldn't treat them as an asset.</font>

Sure. Tell that to opposing counsel.

What have other divorces cases shown in the state where they will get divorced? That is where you will find your answer.

"He earned them for time he spent in a plane, if she has an FF account, she earned them when she flew. This isn't cash, and as the airlines state quite clearly they do not have a cash value. Therefore they probably won't be and shouldn't be treated as community property." - hfly

Hey! I don't think it's fair to say that since he "earned" them, he's entitled to them. What if she's at home with the kids each day while he's out earning miles?? Does that mean she she gets to keep the kids because she "earned" them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif) In a divorce, even though the husband may have earned all the income, he's still required to split the assets equally even though they may have been bought with all his "earned" income. The wife may be doing her part in the household. I think she's entitled to her half of the points!!

Sincerely,
FT Women Activist
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by johnndor:
a divorce lawyer will be retained (is already, actually) to give my friend the final recommendation.)
</font>

If a lawyer who knows his state's divorce laws has been retained to give the final recommendation, then why the heck are you soliciting opinions from people who are neither lawyers nor familiar with the laws of this unnamed state even if they are lawyers?


[This message has been edited by Quokka (edited 06-18-2002).]

The state in this case is Kansas.

I am asking because although divorce lawyers are experts in divorce, the audience here has a far more reaching field of knowledge about miles!

I am with FlyingRev and Quokka.

Maybe they should take some mileage and go on a trip to try to "find" what they seem to have lost in their relationship.

In any case, our opinion are just that.

A good friend of mine left her husband under threat of being killed. She left two teenage daughters behind. She sought NO payments, as he told her she would never collect them as she would be dead. She believed him (I did too) and that was that.

So what the law say and what happens is often somewhat apart.

People pledge to "love...each other until...". Then 1/2 of those people change there feelings sooo much that they cannot continue to live with that person anymore. Go figure? Divorce and death. Estates often cause the same type fueds.

Looks like we have an excellent race for who can come up with the most absurd comment -- well done, FTers!

Currently tied for 3rd place are hfly and pointsgirl, who are both clueless about marital assets.

Holding down 2nd place is flyingrev, and his gratuitous advice: divorce can be difficult enough without well-meaning outsiders who offer answers while being ignorant of the issues.

Well ahead of the pack in 1st place is ranles, who provides her/his advice in the context of divorce actions that are accompanied by death threats. Well done, ranles, to make the connection between the original poster's question and a putative homicidal maniac.

But the day is still young. Let's see what the next batch of posts will bring.

Wideman

Since frequent flier miles cannot be moved between frequent flier accounts, I don't see how she can gain ownership of any of the miles. Even if he said he didn't want them I don't think the airlines would allow them to be moved.

It may be possible for her to try to receive payment for a portion of the value of the outstanding miles, but then paying for lawyers to argue over the value of those miles may end up costing more than it's worth.

I'm going on the assumption that these were 100% earned on biz travel; Pending Company policy; a case could be made that the company owns them and lets the employee use them as he/she sees fit whether it be for free award tickets, upgrades, or other purposes like paying for lounge access. In that case, he/she could give them back to the company rather than give them to the spouse or just never claim them going on the basis that the miles, like all company property belong to the firm. The company just might allow him/her to keep the miles if returned by the employee (a handshake agreement with the boss). since they technically would not be his/her asset then the miles would not have to be pooled with the other assets.

IMHO, there is no way that these should be pooled. He/She should do whatever it takes to not have these included.

BTW, whatever happened to the non-transferability of miles? Does it apply in this case; from the airlines perspective I mean?

Usually, everything is up for grabs in a divorce proceeding.

Just remember that it does not hurt you to ask for this as a measure of settlement.

It is always a bummer to hear about failed relationships.

I have never understood some women's position that they are *entitled* to whatever they can get in a divorce. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif Miles belong to whoever accrued them. If one person paid for all the tickets, then it's open for discussion.

Maybe Randy can help on this issue.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/travel/leisure/2001/2001-04-27-frequent-side.htm

Actually, I do know of one case where the person who had the miles in their account had to "purchase" tickets for the ex-spouse equal to half of the mileage total. They could either use miles or money to purchase those tickets.

(No, not me, as I am happily married. But we do tease each other about who would get all the points and miles!)

From an attorney's perspective, some of the replies above are really quite amusing, notwithstanding how authoritatively they are presented.

The only thing I can say is... they have frequent flyer miles in Kansas?

[This message has been edited by emaij (edited 06-18-2002).]

Well Jamie, you don't say where you are from, so I can't rebutt.

However, yes they do have frequeNt flier miles in Kansas - how else do you expect us to get anywhere useful! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Also, as mentioned before, I did find an old article in Inside Flyer - and different airlines have different policies. A sampling:

AA: The rules of the court decree apply.
AmEx: Points are not property and cannot be assets in any type of settlement.
CO: Miles are not transferrable, and can only be distributed in a settlement by cashing in for awards.
Delta, NW: Transfer OK, with a court order.
United: Not transferrable as part of a domestic relations matter.

Once again the miles have no value, therefore in most places they are not something to be apportioned. BTW, we have no clue from the original post whether the wife has miles, whether she earns more money, nothing.

I am more shocked here by the idiotically old fashioned belief that all women in divorce are either worse off than the husband, or that they don't work AND that they are entitled to everything!

I can speak from experience having gone through this in TN and yes she did get 1/2 the miles (at least the ones she knew about). My lawyer, perhaps not a good one, tried everything mentioned previously on this board but no luck. Community property/assets is all the judge kept saying. Good luck to your friend.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
I am more shocked here by the idiotically old fashioned belief that all women in divorce are either worse off than the husband, or that they don't work AND that they are entitled to everything!</font>

Exactly! Look at J. Lo! Wonder how much her hubby of a few months will get? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

This would make for an interesting colloquy:

Her honor, Judge Thumbthwart: Counsel, what is the value of your client's 500,000 British Airways miles?

Hfly, Esq.: Zero, your honor. The airline says the miles have no value.

Her honor, Judge Thumbthwart: How many Concorde round-trip tickets would the miles buy, Mr. Hfly?

Hfly, Esq.: Four, your honor.

Her honor, Judge Thumbthwart: And each of those tickets cost how much?

Hfly, Esq.: $12,500 each, more or less.

Her honor, Judge Thumbthwart: Thank you, Counsellor.

If I ever get divorced again, I do hope that my ex-to-be hires Atty Hfly.



[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 06-18-2002).]

The key appears to be to put as much as you can in Amex Rewards

Next Question, can a judge force you to move them out of AX Rewards

Or........

Q: How much are 500,000 miles worth??

A: Nothing according to the airlines, however according to how they make provisions on their books, approximately $300.


Or,

A: Well, you honour, I just gave them all to the make-a-wish foundation.

Or,

A: (To the attorney on the other side) Of course I'll give her $25,000 worth of tickets, should I take care of informing the IRS for you??

Lastly, in response to the above it could also be 12 economy tickets which recently went for $399 each (total value $4800), or if you want to go for the Concorde example, it would also be about $4800 as per the FT/Starwood deal.

This is why miles are a can of worms and why they are not reasonable "currency" in a divorce settlement.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
Of course I'll give her $25,000 worth of tickets, should I take care of informing the IRS for you??</font>

Bzzt! The IRS doesn't care, because division of assets in divorce is tax-free. The man who takes legal advice from flyertalk has a fool for a lawyer. And no, I'm not a lawyer, but legal theory (as opposed to practice) tends to be remarkably close to common sense. If the state says that assets acquired during marriage are to be divided 50/50, they will be divided or properly valued and bought out.

If I were a judge, I'd let the two sides bid for a buyout of the other to establish the value of any asset, including FF miles. Simple, really. If one side wanted to claim they have no value, I'd agree and order them transferred to the other side with zero dollar credit to the donor of the miles. As you can see, I have a low tolerance for tricky and dishonest legalisms. (This *proves* that I'm not a lawyer.)

As to the original question, I think that the friend's lawyer should make a fair dollar offer to buy out the mileage, ideally including an offer to let the spouse buy *him* out on exactly the same terms. If the spouse turns the offer down, he has at least shown good faith and his value estimate is much more credible to the court.

The foregoing is common sense and is not legal advice. Some assembly required, batteries not included...

Lots of things that cannot actually be divided are considered in divorce settlements. It's not practical, for example, to slice a painting down the middle so each party gets half. That does not stop the painting from being treaated as an asset and considered in the settlement.

It is not always necessary to assign a monetary value to marital assets. The concept is to divide them into two piles until all parties - spouses, lawyer(s) and/or mediator as applicable, court - are OK with the split. Reducing things to monetary terms can simplify the process, since it provides a rational basis for weighing a painting against an automobile or a stock certificate, but isn't required.

I actually laughed out loud at your post wideman... first time ever while browsing a message board. Maybe that's a bad sign.

[This message has been edited by emaij (edited 06-18-2002).]

The problems with nearly all of the presented arguments are:

1. In nearly all FF programs, the miles are the property of the AIRLINE, NOT the account holder; and

2. FF miles have no cash value.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
Looks like we have an excellent race for who can come up with the most absurd comment -- well done, FTers!

Currently tied for 3rd place are hfly and pointsgirl, who are both clueless about marital assets.
</font>


Wideman,

Thank you so much for pointing out that you think I am clueless and that I made absurd comments.
However, I think the original poster asked for our opinions, and I gave mine.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by avek00:
1. In nearly all FF programs, the miles are the property of the AIRLINE, NOT the account holder; and

2. FF miles have no cash value. </font>

Form vs. substance. Ask a lawyer if you are unclear on the concept.

Yes, they are community property. I too went through a divorce and rather than split them, I sacrificed another asset which could not have been divided.

(Give up miles? What, are you nuts??)

scoop, I'm interested in how you valued the miles in the divorce and what you gave up to keep them!

From what I read on the original post, why would he even put them down on his list of assets.

I mean, it appears from the orig. post that she hasn't asked for them.

It could easily and reasonably be assumed that they are not his property, that they are property of either the airline or employer, or that he 'forgot'. I'm sure that in 99% of the divorces, airline miles are not that big of a deal.

If she asks for them, then the valuation problem will come in.

Finally, the more documentation he can get regarding value from the airline, or from an authoritative source.. yes even Randy.. will help support his cause once he needs to value the miles.

I would start by going to the airline(s) with the balance and seeing what I could get from them. If you don't get what you like, call again, isn't that the airline way..

Also, do they value these in their financial statements? If so that is a possible source.
What about using ebay to see what people are selling them for. Take all of these, or the lowest one. If that doesn't cut it, have a formula prepared that will give you the lowest value. Have a note from your employer, or if they do have a policy that the miles belong to the company, print it. If they are non transferable, print that rule. Print/Support anything you can that goes to his advantage.

Remember too, if she has any miles whatsoever, those can be used to offset his balance. If she has any outstanding credits from the airlines, use those to offset. Use whatever you can, that normally wouldn't be considered in the asset pool to offset his miles.

But why bring them up in the first place. I know one of you lawyer types will say b/c you have too.. again my arguement is that a reasonable person would not think of this as an asset. Not all people are like us here on FT where it is the most precious asset we own LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by johnndor:
The state in this case is Kansas.

I am asking because although divorce lawyers are experts in divorce, the audience here has a far more reaching field of knowledge about miles!</font>

Maybe FTer's do about miles, but not about what constitutes an asset for divorce purposes. Disclose all to the attorney, let him/her decide.

My personal opinion - the miles are assets, whether or not there is a stated cash value associated with them. If your friend chose not to list them, that's his/her business, but the term "fraud" comes to mind.

If your friend does list them and has to attach a value, I would probably first try to value them at the airlines book cost per mile. Unless opposing counsel is clueless, I doubt this would fly. Cost to one person (or entity) doesn't usually equal value to another. My fallback position would be to find the cheapest third-party valuation I could find. Here's one ($0.01 per mile from a Travelocity contest) that he/she can use for supporting documentation:

http://www3.travelocity.com/promos/millionmiles_terms/0,,TRAVELOCITY,00.html

FYI: Kansas is not a community property state.

One way to avoid the problems with the miles is a pre-nup.

One issue is being missed here. You can divide miles (by giving some sort of money I suppose) but not STATUS. You can't split a GOLD in half!

Miles are temporary, lifetime GOLD is forever (or until the airline changes the rules)

------------------
munching toward one million AA miles.

nsx--

I gave several examples/lines of reasoning, if you are going to criticize one, then do them all or it is not a genuine critique.

Furthermore, as any cash value is given in lieu of an asset which has no cash value, it would really depend how they were given. $12,500 given for an asset which has no LEGAL cash value may in fact be considered to be a gift. Although there would be a very convincing legal argument that the aforementioned miles would in fact be worth $4800 overall (as I stated previously).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
I gave several examples/lines of reasoning, if you are going to criticize one, then do them all or it is not a genuine critique.</font>

ok, let me try then.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">He earned them for time he spent in a plane, if she has an FF account, she earned them when she flew.</font>

Wouldn't this logic also be applicable to the salary of a spouse then? S/he earned that money for the time s/he spent at the office -- so they belong to said spouse. Stating that one earned the miles for time spent on an airplane is pretty self-evident, I fail to see how this goes to the questions asked (are they assets for the divorce proceedings, and if so what is their value.)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This isn't cash, and as the airlines state quite clearly they do not have a cash value.</font>

I think wideman did handle this re: Concorde tickets.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Once again the miles have no value, therefore in most places they are not something to be apportioned.</font>

New post, same argument.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Nothing according to the airlines, however according to how they make provisions on their books, approximately $300.</font>

Unless you are divorcing British Airways (they never game me OJ when I was thirsty your honor!), I'm not sure that BA's estimate of the miles' value (or lack of) is a factor here. This again goes back to the point you made (three times now), as to the miles having no value.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">A: Well, you honour, I just gave them all to the make-a-wish foundation.</font>

Please again see salary above -- if s/he donated all his savings accumulated prior to the divorce, would that be ok? (I don't know, just asking.)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">A: (To the attorney on the other side) Of course I'll give her $25,000 worth of tickets, should I take care of informing the IRS for you??</font>

Already answered by nsx.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This is why miles are a can of worms and why they are not reasonable "currency" in a divorce settlement.</font>

Oh yeah -- can of worms and divorce -- those one never sees together. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The fact that something is a can of worms seems like a pretty weak argument in court:

hfly, Esq. "Your honor I object! This could become a can of worms!"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Although there would be a very convincing legal argument that the aforementioned miles would in fact be worth $4800 overall (as I stated previously).</font>

Was that before or after you stated they have no value? You argued one could take the value of coach tickets which recently went for $399. It seems then it becomes a matter of assigning a mutually agreed upon reasonable value, much as others have suggested.

[Edited for UBB coding.]

[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 06-19-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">...why would he even put them down on his list of assets. I mean, it appears from the orig. post that she hasn't asked for them. </font>

The laws and rules in each state are different. In Massachusetts, anyone involved in a divorce action fills out a financial statement, where one lists the value of both the obvious (weekly income, value of property, value of 401k) and the obscure (firearms, crops and livestock).

After you fill out the financial statement, you sign it just below a statement that reads (and the bolding/capitalization is on the form, not this writer's emphasis):

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I certify under the penalties of perjury that the information stated on this Financial Statement...is complete, true, and accurate. I UNDERSTAND THAT WILLFUL MISREPRESENTATION OF ANY OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED WILL SUBJECT ME TO SANCTIONS AND MAY RESULT IN CRIMINAL CHARGES BEING FILED AGAINST ME.
</font>


And p.s.: to whoever suggested a pre-nup as a solution: Don't be so sure. Depending on the state, and especially if the marriage has lasted for 10, or even 5, years, the pre-nuptial agreement may hold very little water.

Wow - Thanks everyone for all of the responses. Of course, some people have very strong opinions one way or another. I purposefully withheld details at the beginning so as not to bias the responses. Now that many have had their say, let me add:

The wife, who was/is a stay-at-home mom to care for 3 kids (one of whom is mentally handicapped) had been married for over 15 years. The husband was confronted and admitted to an affair, but did not want to end the affair or the marriage. Wife files for divorce and kicks husband out of house. Wife knows that husband has earned many miles (worth much in terms of future airline tickets) and wants part of the miles. She was home taking care of the family while he was out earning salary and miles. She probably doesn't care about Gold status or whatever.

Husband has made an offer of "paying" for a ticket to Italy for wife, instead of half the miles. (I don't know how many miles are in question, but it looks like he will have to declare what he has...)

I was just curious as to what everyone thought about the whole idea... of course, actual valuation of the miles or how to split them up is another question. Some pograms could make it vey easy to split a balance 50-50, some will make it very difficult.

Finally, I will quote one of my favorite professors who told me "Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it." The value for me comes from the debate, and the differrent issues that people bring to light. Of course, I would never take (or except others to take) advice given here on such an important matter without consulting with a competant, trusted attorney.

Should miles be included in pre-nups? That depends in part if you believe in pre-nups, which is a whole 'nother ball-game.

You people are ALL fools! There is a VERY easy way to eliminate the entire worry of "how will we divide the assets", and it is so simple I am surprised nobody has mentioned it!

Do not HAVE any assets!

Simple huh? Live way beyond your means, everything you own is on payments, all your money blown on vacations and big screen TV's. When it comes time to cut the cord, all you have to worry about is how to divide up the debt! If you can string this along until you get hit by a bus or have a heart attack, you have succeeded! If you decide to divorce, he/she can find another payday, and you can continue blowing your money. This formula works perfectly, even if you have a couple kids, as they cannot be held responsible for your debt when you croak, and leaving money to your kids is dumb anyway! Are you writing this down http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Chris

Do you know what airline the miles in question are on?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ChrisR:
When it comes time to cut the cord, all you have to worry about is how to divide up the debt!</font>How do you "divide up the debt" when the creditors to whom the debt is owed appear perfectly capable of going after either partner if the other partner can't pay/declares bankruptcy, etc.

I was in this situation last year. Not long after my million Latin Pass miles posted, my soon to be ex-wife decided she wanted a divorce. It really doesn't matter if miles and points are legally assets, like everything else, they are items to be negotiated.

I gave my wife (written in the legal agreement) enough HHonors points for a week in the Caribbean with the children, and she waived any further interest my miles and points. Hilton requested a copy of the agreement, and set up an HHonors account in her name with the 150,000 points. I had accumulated 90,000 AAdvantage miles in her name (through business credit card spending) which she retained and used for the three tickets.

In the end, it was a small hit to my total miles and point balance, and my children had a great time in Puerto Rico for Presidents week.

Having no relevant legal background or experience in divorses, I'm not going to venture a guess as to how miles should be handled. However, I do find it amusing that so many of the users here are assuming that the "friend" is the person with the miles (husband).

cnk

It was the husband as most of us assumed

johnndor

Posts: 729
From: MCI
Registered: Feb 2000
posted 06-19-2002 07:12 AM
Wife knows that husband has earned many miles (worth much in terms of future airline tickets) and wants part of the miles. She was home taking care of the family while he was out earning salary and miles. She probably doesn't care about Gold status or whatever.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cnk:
Having no relevant legal background or experience in divorses, I'm not going to venture a guess as to how miles should be handled. However, I do find it amusing that so many of the users here are assuming that the "friend" is the person with the miles (husband).

cnk</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TrojanHorse:
It was the husband as most of us assumed
</font>

That message only clarifies that the husband has the miles, not that johnndor's friend is the husband.

Yes, it is the husband with the miles.

My "friend" is in fact the wife...

I think Schutzee's answer to the "problem" was an excellent solution. Why not use the miles for the kids? Maybe a vacation with each parent??

"Accrued mileage and certificates do not constitute property of the member. Neither accrued mileage nor certificates are transferable (i) upon death, (ii) as part of a domestic relations matter, or (iii) otherwise by operation of law. "

I found this in the Mileage Plus program rules. Not sure if other programs have something similar. If a divorce is considered a domestic relations matter, the ability to transfer miles seems to be restricted.

[This message has been edited by IAD777 (edited 06-20-2002).]

If I were the wife in this case, I would certianly ask my attorney about the possibility of counting future miles the husband earns on business as part of his total compensation package. I'd want to know if I weren't also entitled to a share of those (or comparable $) as part of my alimony and child support. I would think she could argue that if he earns $X worth of miles a year, that's part of his salary and therefore she's entitled to a cut. May not fly, but worth asking about.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
Currently tied for 3rd place are hfly and pointsgirl, who are both clueless about marital assets.........Wideman</font>

Even though I generally find your opinion and comments very educated and helpful, on this occasion I fail to see why you turned this general topic into a personal attack on fellow FT'ers. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and so far no one attacked anyone else.

Why grade badly people who have said nothing bad about you? Why do you find that you are entitled to be the judge, jury and the executioner?

Personal attacks only result in flame wars and a well balanced person like yourself is IMO the last to start one. So, what went wrong? Who or what ticked you off to make such derogative comments about your fellow FT'ers? Why are you asking someone to snap and say not nice things about you?

Out of curiosity, I emailed AA to see what their "official" position was. Suprisingly, I got the following response back within 24 hours:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">In response to your request for information on how to divide AAdvantage miles following a divorce. Here's a summary of what we need in order to proceed:

-A copy of the court-approved Divorce Decree.
-The enclosed Affidavit, after it has been signed by the AAdvantage member whose account is to be debited, and notarized. Please note, either the Divorce Decree or the Affidavit must specify how the miles
and/or upgrades are to be divided.
-Payment to cover the mileage transfer. The service charge is $50.00 USD for every increment of 25,000 miles or less transferred from one AAdvantage account to the account of the former spouse. (For example, if 90,000 miles are being transferred, the fee is $200.) Upgrades may
be transferred at the same time at no charge

Once we receive the necessary items, we will be happy to comply with the request and send confirmation of the mileage transfer. Thank you for your cooperation. </font>

Guess I shouldn't be surprised by the fee...

This is the best one yet!!!

LMAO

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by letiole:
If I were the wife in this case, I would certianly ask my attorney about the possibility of counting future miles the husband earns on business as part of his total compensation package. I'd want to know if I weren't also entitled to a share of those (or comparable $) as part of my alimony and child support. I would think she could argue that if he earns $X worth of miles a year, that's part of his salary and therefore she's entitled to a cut. May not fly, but worth asking about. </font>

Wow! AA's response suggests that upgrades can also be part of a divorce decree. That is another item that needs to be considered.

this thread may be near the end, so i won't mind going sort of off topic.

the last time we had our wills updated, we added that ff mi's were part of the estate.

as for value , i just got a daughter a round trip lga-dfw in first. i'm going to guess that i would have to paid ~ $2k or more.

i think she should get the mi's

this thread may be near the end, so i won't mind going sort of off topic.

the last time we had our wills updated, we added that ff mi's were part of the estate.

as for value , i just got a daughter a round trip lga-dfw in first. i'm going to guess that i would have to paid ~ $2k or more.

i think she should get the mi's [ i'm talking about the home maker].



[This message has been edited by clacko (edited 06-20-2002).]

I don't know the legalities, but I would think that they should not be divided. They cannot even legally change hands. They must stay in the hands of whose name is on the account.

quinella -

Actually, AA, Delta and NW will all legally transfer miles if part of a divorce settlement.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by nsx:
If I were a judge, I'd let the two sides bid for a buyout of the other to establish the value of any asset, including FF miles. Simple, really. If one side wanted to claim they have no value, I'd agree and order them transferred to the other side with zero dollar credit to the donor of the miles. As you can see, I have a low tolerance for tricky and dishonest legalisms. (This *proves* that I'm not a lawyer.)
</font>

OK, here is a question. How exactly do you "transfer" them to the other side when they are, by definition, non-transferable? I think by common sense rules, if you have an item that is non-transferable and cannot have a dollar sign applied to it, then it should remain where it is. And besides, the person who sat on the flights is the one that earned them, not the other way around. I dont think miles should be in the same category as a savings account.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by johnndor:
quinella -

Actually, AA, Delta and NW will all legally transfer miles if part of a divorce settlement. </font>

Really? That is news to me. Thankfully I have never had to learn that the hard way.

Trojan horse wrote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This is the best one yet!!!</font>

Glad I humored you. Somehow I suspect no one would ever want to be involved in a divorce with me ... you can bet I'd fight for those future miles as if they were future income. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by quinella66:
And besides, the person who sat on the flights is the one that earned them, not the other way around</font>

You could say the same thing about income. "The person who went to work every day is the one that earned the money"

Letiole I don't know if you are married or not, but all FT'ers consider yourself warned LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by letiole:
Trojan horse wrote:
Glad I humored you. Somehow I suspect no one would ever want to be involved in a divorce with me ... you can bet I'd fight for those future miles as if they were future income. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif </font>

Let's assume that the divorce will be a civil one and that the parties want to seek an equitable division of the marital assets.

The easiest way to handle it would be for the one with the miles to sign an agreement that tickets will be issued at the request of the one without miles up to the 50% of the total miles available at the time of divorce (or at a suitable point in time).

This makes it better for both parties, so that the one with status can have the tix or certificates issued with the greater leverage. Being EXP with a boyfriend who is GLD, I am the one buying a tickets for his family all the time--from my account it is a breeze.

The "Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Wallerstein is a good read on the consequences of divorce. I'd recommend it to all parties in the situation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by chipper:
Let's assume that the divorce will be a civil one and that the parties want to seek an equitable division of the marital assets.</font>

If they could be civil about it, they probably wouldn't be getting a divorce in the first place.



[This message has been edited by Always Flyin (edited 06-22-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The service charge is $50.00 USD for every increment of 25,000 miles or less transferred from one AAdvantage account to the account of the former spouse. (For example, if 90,000 miles are being transferred, the fee is $200.) </font>

OK, just so this thread can now run another 50 posts. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Say there are 1,000,000 AA miles in the name of John Does here. John says they have no value for tax or on the airline books. Judy Doe and her attorney want half of them.

WHO pays the $1,000 transfer fee AA will demand?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

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~ Glen ~

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by chipper:
The easiest way to handle it would be for the one with the miles to sign an agreement that tickets will be issued at the request of the one without miles up to the 50% of the total miles available at the time of divorce (or at a suitable point in time). </font>

If you recommended that to your client, Chipper, it would be grounds for a legal malpractice case.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ozstamps:
OK, just so this thread can now run another 50 posts. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Say there are 1,000,000 AA miles in the name of John Does here. John says they have no value for tax or on the airline books. Judy Doe and her attorney want half of them.

WHO pays the $1,000 transfer fee AA will demand?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

</font>

Easy, split by both parties. No different than if you had to pay a real estate commission to sell a house, pay court or arbitration fees for the divorce, etc.

Jeff

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by emaij:
If you recommended that to your client, Chipper, it would be grounds for a legal malpractice case.</font>

Why?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Easy, split by both parties. No different than if you had to pay a real estate commission to sell a house, pay court or arbitration fees for the divorce, etc.</font>

But a house has a tangible value and MUST be sold - no one argues that. This is a case where a guy has something valued at ZIPPO even by IRS and wife demands half of that zippo. And he then gets whacked $500 cash so she gets half of zippo? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

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~ Glen ~

Isn't the $1000 fee to transfer worth 50,000 miles, so if either person pays in full; then shouldn't they get an extra 50,000 miles based at 2 cents per mile?

AAAH .. and what value do you assign to the upgrade certs.? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif