Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - MUC passport control insisted on seeing my passport

OK, I know the title sounds a bit strange, and further I'm not sure if this is the right place to post since it's not really LH-related, but I thought here's the highest density of German flyers, and MUC is a major LH hub. Mods, please feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate.

Anyway, usually I only show my government ID (German Personalausweis) when passing the passport control. However, this time I got asked where I was flying to and consequently told I would have to show them my passport. Upon my inquiry as to why they wanted to see my passport the young officer told me it's because he had to check whether my credentials are all right to enter the foreign country avoiding that I'll be sent back immediately on arrival. I gave him my passport and mentioned that that's not his job but the responsibility of the airline.

My question is whether my understanding is correct in that the German passport control has to let me pass with a valid Personalausweis only, or whether they can insist on seeing my passport which would allow them to check all my stamps. Another question is whether I have to tell them where I'm flying to in the first place since that is none of the government's business. Should I complain somewhere to avoid erosion of our right of free movement?

Cheers,


HTB.

My question is whether my understanding is correct in that the German passport control has to let me pass with a valid Personalausweis only, or whether they can insist on seeing my passport which would allow them to check all my stamps. Another question is whether I have to tell them where I'm flying to in the first place since that is none of the government's business. Should I complain somewhere to avoid erosion of our right of free movement?

Cheers,


HTB.

Of course they do have a right to see your passport. Only when crossing into certain countries your ID will suffice - it's not clear where you were travelling to.

BTW your passport belongs to the state not to you as it should be mentioned somewhere in the passport.

Normally the airlines pick up the tab if you are caught not having the right paperwork at your destination to enter that country.

If you however enter the destination country and get deported from there, the local authorities contact the german consular service, who pays for deportation and is obliged to get it back from you once you are back in germany.

Hence german authorities take care that you have all the required papers when you leave the country.

Of course they do have a right to see your passport. Only when crossing into certain countries your ID will suffice - it's not clear where you were travelling to.

I think the border guard's explanation is bollocks, they couldn't care less if you're sent back right away, it's your airline's responsibility. It could be that they have asked the Bundesgrenzschutz to take on this task though. In this age of self-checkin (even with baggage!) and do-it-yourself boarding on e-tickets, it's easy to fly just about anywhere without an airline employee ever seeing your ID.

BTW your passport belongs to the state not to you as it should be mentioned somewhere in the passport.

This is correct - looking at mine, it's on the inside of the back cover:

"Dieser Reisepass ist Eigentum der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
This passport is the property of the Federal Republic of Germany
Ce passeport est propriété de la Republique fedérale d'Allemagne"

I seem to recall that officially, a Personalausweis is government property as well, but it's not explicitly stated on the ID.

In any case, I would agree that the BGS has a right to ask to see your passport if it's reasonable to believe you would have it on you. My last passport was filled with stamps, many of them from not-so-friendly countries, and it was never a problem at German immigration.

In any case, I would agree that the BGS has a right to ask to see your passport if it's reasonable to believe you would have it on you. My last passport was filled with stamps, many of them from not-so-friendly countries, and it was never a problem at German immigration.

Your home country always has to let you in as long as you have its nationality. What happens after you got into the country is a second thing (getting arrested /questioned/...) but unless they take away your passport you should always be able to travel "home".

Strange. I even took the burden to look up the relevant laws. It is their task to check your identity, to safeguard the German borders but for sure not to check whether or not you fulfill the visa policies of foreign countries (I have certain doubts that they are able to do this as they do not know the laws of 220+ states and your personal plans).

Just on side issue: The statement "this passport is property of Federal Republic of Germany" has two reasons: A.) it allows German governement to interfere if a foreign country tries to keep a German national's passport and B.) it allows German authorities to claim a passport back from a German national without an legal obstacles if they decide that such German national is not entitled to hold a passport.

In the pre 9/11 days a colleague of mine lost her passport in the US and managed to fly home and enter the coountry using the 'personalausweis' (PA) the BGS or BP as it is now called let her in without any issues. The problem was with the airline staff, who wouldn't believe her the PA was equivalent to a passport in germany.

The official IATA rules say:



/ 03FEB07 / 1611 UTC



National GERMANY (DE) /Destination GERMANY (DE)


GERMANY (DE)



Passport (may be expired) or National Identity Card

("Personalausweis") required.
Temporary passport ("Vorlaeufiger Personalausweis") also
accepted.

Visa not required.

Minors:
Identity Card ( Kinderausweis , with photo) issued to children

up to 16 years old also accepted instead of passport (no photo
required for children under 10 years of age).

Good to know that IATA understands that I as a German national do not need a visa to enter into Germany. :D

National GERMANY (DE) /Destination GERMANY (DE)
...
Visa not required.

Good to know that IATA understands that I as a German national do not need a visa to enter into Germany. :D

You'll be surprised how many countries require their 'nationals' to have a visa to enter their 'own' country. Especially for GB/UK it gets complicated:




/ 03FEB07 / 1640 UTC



National UNITED KINGDOM (GREAT BRITAIN) (GB)
Destination UNITED KINGDOM (GREAT BRITAIN) (GB)


UNITED KINGDOM (GREAT BRITAIN)



Passport required. Also accepted are the following documents
issued to residents of:
- Gibraltar: Identity Card issued by Gibraltar authorities to

British Citizens and British Overseas Territories

Citizen (previously refered to as British Dependent

Territories Citizens , see TIRULES/R16 )(these cards have
a red stripe);
- Hong Kong:
- Hong Kong Certificate of Identity (will not be issued

after June 30, 1997, but remains valid for travel until

expiry date); or
- Hong Kong Document of Identity.


Visa not required if holding:
1. passport endorsed:
- British Citizen ; or

- British Overseas Citizen ; or

- British National (Overseas) ; or

- British Overseas Territories Citizen (previously

refered to as British Dependent Territories Citizens ,

see TIRULES/R16 ); or
- British Subject being Citizens of the United Kingdom and

Colonies"; or
- British Protected Person ; or

2.Identity Card issued by Gibraltar to residents of Gibraltar.


Please note that:
- British passports endorsed British Dependent Territories

Citizen issued in Hong Kong are no longer issued or valid

for travel; and
- U.K. passport may be expired indefinitely if endorsed:
- British Citizen ; or

- British Subject, being Citizen of the United Kingdom

and Colonies", having the right of abode in the U.K..

Flights from/to United Kingdom to/from Channel Islands,
Ireland (Rep. of) and the Isle of Man are domestic flights.

Therefore, there is no Immigration control.


Minors:
Since October 5, 1998, children are required to hold their
own passport.
Children up to/incl. 15 years, who are already included in
parent's or guardian's passports issued prior to October 5,
1998, may continue to travel. However:

- they may not travel without holder of passport; and
- the visa in passport (if required) must indicate it is also
valid for the child(ren).

CHECK TINEWS/N7 - U.S.A. - WESTERN HEMISPHERE TRAVEL
INITIATIVE



Timaticweb Version 1.3
03 February 2007

As a result of the colonial past HM Government used to issue passports to plenty of people worldwide - these might be "somehow" British subjects, but they are not automatically entitled to take residence in the UK.

I believe Hong Kong was the real issue....

You'll be surprised how many countries require their 'nationals' to have a visa to enter their 'own' country. Especially for GB/UK it gets complicated:

You're right that there are a number of countries, but the only one I can think of right now is Cuba. Cubans living abroad need to secure a visa if they want to visit their country. It's a way of keeping out exiled dissidents or other troublemakers.

Here is a weird one - Sudan requires a Visa from foreigners who wish to leave the country. I believe there are many more countries like this who require visas or exit permits to leave the country (especially for those on work permits).

Sudan
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait

to name a few

I have a visa for the US right now and I had to get a special note in my visa and passport that I am allowed to leave the country and come back to keep it still valid after my departure...

If you are a German passport holder of foreign descent, or so-called "ein Auslaender or eine Auslaenderin", the officer probably wanted give you a hard time.
If not, you just had a bad day.
More often than not, my financee , who is a naturalized German citizen, has to cope with this nuisance at Frankfurt.:(


OK, I know the title sounds a bit strange, and further I'm not sure if this is the right place to post since it's not really LH-related, but I thought here's the highest density of German flyers, and MUC is a major LH hub. Mods, please feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate.

Anyway, usually I only show my government ID (German Personalausweis) when passing the passport control. However, this time I got asked where I was flying to and consequently told I would have to show them my passport. Upon my inquiry as to why they wanted to see my passport the young officer told me it's because he had to check whether my credentials are all right to enter the foreign country avoiding that I'll be sent back immediately on arrival. I gave him my passport and mentioned that that's not his job but the responsibility of the airline.

My question is whether my understanding is correct in that the German passport control has to let me pass with a valid Personalausweis only, or whether they can insist on seeing my passport which would allow them to check all my stamps. Another question is whether I have to tell them where I'm flying to in the first place since that is none of the government's business. Should I complain somewhere to avoid erosion of our right of free movement?

Cheers,


HTB.

If you are a German passport holder of foreign descent, or so-called "ein Auslaender or eine Auslaenderin", the officer probably wanted give you a hard time.
If not, you just had a bad day.
More often than not, my financee , who is a naturalized German citizen, has to cope with this nuisance at Frankfurt.:(

Being a naturalised german on indo-german descent (mothers could pass on german citizenship only since 1976 which when we applied) I've never been treated even a bit differently. The only thing I notice is that my passport is scanned for a schengen SIS check when some 'german' are allowed to pass after a quick look at the biometric page in the passport.

Strange. I even took the burden to look up the relevant laws. It is their task to check your identity, to safeguard the German borders but for sure not to check whether or not you fulfill the visa policies of foreign countries (I have certain doubts that they are able to do this as they do not know the laws of 220+ states and your personal plans).

Absolutely -- and lacking the information when I'll leave the country in question again he cannot even start to assess whether I need a visa or not.

I think the question boils down to whether I'm allowed to leave Germany without a passport, instead only carrying a Personalausweis. Equally important is the question whether the boarder control -- when leaving Germany -- has any business asking me where I'm headed. I fail to see the connection to "safeguarding the German borders."

I'm very much against being asked where I'm going to. It opens the potential for abuse.

To answer other poster's question: I'm a native German and certainly don't look "exotic". It's been the second time in 10 years that I was asked where I was going by border control when leaving Germany / Austria / Swiss.

Thanks for all the input so far.

Cheers,


HTB.

:D You better cut your hair before planning a journey to either SIN or BKK:)



NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /DESTINATION SINGAPORE (SG)

VISA DESTINATION SINGAPORE (SG)

...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 6 MONTHS ON ARRIVAL) REQUIRED.

ALSO ACCEPTED: "KINDERAUSWEIS" (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 6 MONTHS
ON ARRIVAL) ISSUED TO MINORS, PROVIDED CONTAINING A PHOTO OF
THE CHILD.

VISA NOT REQUIRED PROVIDED OBTAINING A SOCIAL VISIT PASS
ON ARRIVAL FOR A STAY OF 14 OR 30 DAYS (FREE OF CHARGE).
EXTENSION OF STAY UP TO 3 MONTHS MAY BE POSSIBLE.
FEE FOR EXTENSION OF SOCIAL VISIT PASS IS SGD 40.-.

VISITOR MUST HOLD:
- CONFIRMED RETURN OR ONWARD TICKET (NOT APPLICABLE TO AIRLINE
STAFF TRAVELLING ON REDUCED FARE/STANDBY TICKETS OR TO
MDTI


ENTRY MAY BE REFUSED TO "HIPPY" TYPES.





NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /DESTINATION THAILAND (TH)

VISA DESTINATION THAILAND (TH)

...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 30 DAYS AND IN GOOD CONDITION)
REQUIRED. ALSO ACCEPTED:
- IDENTITY CARD ("KINDERAUSWEIS") ISSUED TO MINORS.

VISA NOT REQUIRED FOR A MAX. STAY OF 30 DAYS, PROVIDED
COMING FOR TOURISTIC PURPOSES. EXTENSION UP TO 10 DAYS IS
POSSIBLE. FEE THB 500.- (1 PHOTO REQUIRED).
IF PASSPORT IS VALID LESS THAN 30 DAYS, STAY WILL ONLY BE
PERMITTED UP TO THE VALIDITY OF THE PASSPORT.
NOTE: THERE IS A MAX. LIMIT OF A TOTAL OF 90 DAYS WITHIN ANY
6 MONTH PERIOD.

IT IS RECOMMENDED TO HOLD ONWARD/RETURN TICKETS.

MDTI
IF HOLDING APEC BUSINESS TRAVEL CARD TOGETHER WITH PASSPORT:
VISA NOT REQUIRED.

ENTRY MAY BE REFUSED IF OF "HIPPY" APPEARANCE.

OK, I know the title sounds a bit strange, and further I'm not sure if this is the right place to post since it's not really LH-related, but I thought here's the highest density of German flyers, and MUC is a major LH hub. Mods, please feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate.

Anyway, usually I only show my government ID (German Personalausweis) when passing the passport control. However, this time I got asked where I was flying to and consequently told I would have to show them my passport. Upon my inquiry as to why they wanted to see my passport the young officer told me it's because he had to check whether my credentials are all right to enter the foreign country avoiding that I'll be sent back immediately on arrival. I gave him my passport and mentioned that that's not his job but the responsibility of the airline.

My question is whether my understanding is correct in that the German passport control has to let me pass with a valid Personalausweis only, or whether they can insist on seeing my passport which would allow them to check all my stamps. Another question is whether I have to tell them where I'm flying to in the first place since that is none of the government's business. Should I complain somewhere to avoid erosion of our right of free movement?

Cheers,


HTB.


You were perfectly right! It is none of the German Bordercontrols business whatsoever, whether you were admitted into any foreign country.

The may check your identity, as soon as you cross the German borderline.
As a German citizen you may do that at an time by land, water or air using

1. passport

or

2. ID-card (Personalausweis)

or

3. Binnenschifferschein (certain ID card for boat personel)

or even a couple of other ID cards....

Everything else they told you is B.S.

I anticipate the German bordercontrol has enough to do to keep foreign criminals out of Germany and consider it a waste of tax money, if they occupy with the job of making sure that German nationals can enter other countries.

For further information you may read the exact rules here (German):

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bundesrecht/pa_gdv_1988/gesamt.pdf

B.) it allows German authorities to claim a passport back from a German national without an legal obstacles if they decide that such German national is not entitled to hold a passport.Surely there would be the obstacle of EU free movement rules.

Surely there would be the obstacle of EU free movement rules.

Surely not. EU free movement rule allows the citizen of the EU memberstates to move freely in all other memberstates. A EU memberstate is not allowed to discriminate a citizen of any other memberstate. This concept does not obilgate a member state to let its own citizens depart into any other memberstate (any member of the EU is entitled to discriminate its own citizens). Sec. 10 of the German passport code stipulates that Germans under certain circumstances are not allowed to depart from Germany.

Surely not. EU free movement rule allows the citizen of the EU memberstates to move freely in all other memberstates. A EU memberstate is not allowed to discriminate a citizen of any other memberstate. This concept does not obilgate a member state to let its own citizens depart into any other memberstate (any member of the EU is entitled to discriminate its own citizens). Sec. 10 of the German passport code stipulates that Germans under certain circumstances are not allowed to depart from Germany.
Almost like Star Alliance. Our friends the US carriers are dicriminating UA*G and US*G members by not allowing them access to the lounge, whereas all other *G members are let in. ;)

To answer other poster's question: I'm a native German and certainly don't look "exotic". It's been the second time in 10 years that I was asked where I was going by border control when leaving Germany / Austria / Swiss.

I get asked all the time. Probably about 30% of trips or so. And as for asking where I'm coming from, that happens something like 70% of the time. Must be that I'm 23, because of that I fall into a demographic that must be treated with the utmost suspicion.

At least I don't look "hippy"! :D But in all seriousness, the people that are let into Thailand and Singapore on a regular basis show that that rule is soundly ignored in both countries.

Anyway, if you want to avoid border guards asking you questions, just sign up for the pilot program at FRA where you can pass through an automated passport gate with an iris scan. Works like a charm, and you get to skip the queues! Only works at FRA so far, unfortunately. The office where you can sign up is in a little box in Hall A of Terminal 1 in FRA, near the bag drop for Self Check-In. I highly recommend it!

Surely not. EU free movement rule allows the citizen of the EU memberstates to move freely in all other memberstates. A EU memberstate is not allowed to discriminate a citizen of any other memberstate. This concept does not obilgate a member state to let its own citizens depart into any other memberstate (any member of the EU is entitled to discriminate its own citizens). Sec. 10 of the German passport code stipulates that Germans under certain circumstances are not allowed to depart from Germany.Well, dear Flying Lawyer, sounds to me like you need a refresher course on EU free movement law :). It has always been the case under ECJ caselaw and has been explicitly codified in Directive 2004/38/EC that the right to free movement includes the right to leave one's own country, with the corollary that a Member State has a duty to give its citizens appropriate travel documents, unless that Member State is in a position to invoke one of the grounds of derogation from free movement. See Article 4 of the Directive (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_229/l_22920040629en00350048.pdf) on the right of exit.

I always show my 'ID' and never had any problems (in FRA and other other european airports such as AMS and CDG) :confused:

Well, dear Flying Lawyer, sounds to me like you need a refresher course on EU free movement law :). It has always been the case under ECJ caselaw and has been explicitly codified in Directive 2004/38/EC that the right to free movement includes the right to leave one's own country, with the corollary that a Member State has a duty to give its citizens appropriate travel documents, unless that Member State is in a position to invoke one of the grounds of derogation from free movement. See Article 4 of the Directive (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_229/l_22920040629en00350048.pdf) on the right of exit.

Thanks a lot, interesting. I was not aware of this. The German rule in sec. 10 of the passport code allows to deny departure and (sec. 8) seize or withdraw a passport (or any other travel permit) if certain facts justify certain assumption made in sec. 7 (criminal action, alimony, conscription etc). I always understood this as (allowed) discrimination of its own nationals.

You'll be surprised how many countries require their 'nationals' to have a visa to enter their 'own' country..
&
You're right that there are a number of countries, but the only one I can think of right now is Cuba..
You are right, only rogue states would require their citizens to
produce a visa to return :D (http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/residents/index.htm).

Thanks a lot, interesting. I was not aware of this. The German rule in sec. 10 of the passport code allows to deny departure and (sec. 8) seize or withdraw a passport (or any other travel permit) if certain facts justify certain assumption made in sec. 7 (criminal action, alimony, conscription etc). I always understood this as (allowed) discrimination of its own nationals.No, no 'reverse discrimination' allowed in this situation, but there is a public policy derogation from free movement that a Member State could invoke and could probably justify the s10 situations. Although on the face of it the directive only speaks of the public policy derogation for entry and residence in another Member State, I cannot imagine the Court not considering that it also applies to right of exit.

&

You are right, only rogue states would require their citizens to
produce a visa to return :D (http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/residents/index.htm).

Well, since those visas are for people who have renounced their citizenship at some time to take on a different citizenship but are now grovelling to come back, I would say it's OK. ;)