By BEVERLEY LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer 3 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is checking the accuracy of a watch list of suspected terrorists banned from traveling on airliners in the U.S. and will probably cut the list in half, the head of the Transportation Security Administration said Wednesday.
Even cutting the list in half is "nice but not all that meaningful," said Barry Steinhardt, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union. He noted that various estimates of the list's size, which is classified, have ranged from 50,000 to 350,000 names.
"Cutting a list of 350,000 names is not all that impressive," Steinhardt added.
I agree. 5+ years and we finally get a meaningless gesture predicated on un-Secure Flight being used? :mad:
This agency needs to be destroyed!
Gargoyle
Jan 17, 07, 8:23 pm
Even cutting the list in half is "nice but not all that meaningful," I think it's great- if they cut the list vertically. Slice up the paper between the first and last names, throw out all the last names, and keep all the first names on the list. That way we'll have a list of hundreds of thousands of first names, putting perhaps 85% of Americans on the list, and bringing the economy to a halt. That might wake up some sheeple.
GUWonder
Jan 17, 07, 8:31 pm
Divine intervention will be needed for DHS/TSA to get its act together even in this regard. As things stand with these blacklists, this is insufficient.
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 1:25 am
Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) ended up being slowed down when travelling with his wife "Catherine" Stevens. Apparently, Mr. Cat Stevens, aka Yusuf Islam nowadays, being "blacklisted" of sorts led to Mrs. Cat Stevens being flagged down at US airports too. Couldn't happen to a better guy. ;)
These future "improvements" are being tied to SecureFlight at least in part. And SecureFlight's solution to this issue is to require more ID checks/ID data. :td: :td: No thank you.
SecureFlight and unAmerican blacklists are a waste and should be tossed in favor of allocating resources to better explosives detection.
As I've noted here multiple times, the idiots in charge of blacklist implementation have lead for brains .... and can't necessarily tell apart a woman from a man. Idiots.
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 1:53 am
DHS is now going on the record and confirming in public that which has been known by those who have paid attention here on FT:
different airlines = different blacklists/blacklist implementation.
joe_s
Jan 18, 07, 4:33 am
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is checking the accuracy of a watch list of suspected terrorists banned from traveling on airliners in the U.S. and will probably cut the list in half, the head of the Transportation Security Administration said Wednesday.
Here's another news article on this story, from UPI via the Washington Times:
Review of names likely to halve TSA's no-fly list (http://washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20070117-104204-6104r)
By Shaun Waterman
UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL
January 18, 2007
...
Mr. Hawley acknowledged that the review would not solve problems for passengers with names similar to those on one of his agency's lists... Sen. Ted Stevens, Alaska Republican... said he and his wife were stopped repeatedly for additional scrutiny at airports because her name, Catherine Stevens, was similar to Cat Stevens, a name previously used by the singer Yusuf Islam, who is on a U.S. watch list because of his donations to Palestinian charities linked to Hamas.
Mr. Hawley said aggrieved passengers could apply for the agency's clear list through an expedited electronic process within 10 days.
...
"Unfortunately, it depends airline by airline how their individual systems work as to how effectively that's done," he said, adding that the agency continued to work with the airlines on their matching technologies and ability to use the clear list.
entilzhaFT
Jan 18, 07, 6:41 am
Odd timing with the Boston Legal episode (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=648535) from Tuesday.
LessO2
Jan 18, 07, 8:31 am
Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) ended up being slowed down when travelling with his wife "Catherine" Stevens. Apparently, Mr. Cat Stevens, aka Yusuf Islam nowadays, being "blacklisted" of sorts led to Mrs. Cat Stevens being flagged down at US airports too. Couldn't happen to a better guy. ;)
Seriously?
Sydneysider
Jan 18, 07, 10:16 am
*yawn*
The Bush administration may be trying to make nice this week on issues like the No-Fly List and illegal wiretapping, but they are hollow gestures that have come too late in the game.
Wally Bird
Jan 18, 07, 10:55 am
Hawley said aggrieved passengers could apply for the agency's clear list through an expedited electronic process within 10 days.... but did not say how successful such applications were likely to be ...
Jaimito Cartero
Jan 18, 07, 10:57 am
Looks like they're taking all the Dennis Crane's off the list. :D
bocastephen
Jan 18, 07, 11:16 am
Since DHS already admitted that no actual terrorists were on the No Fly List....remind me again why we have this list in the first place?
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 1:37 pm
Since DHS already admitted that no actual terrorists were on the No Fly List....remind me again why we have this list in the first place?
You'll correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure you meant to say:
"Since DHS already admitted that actual terrorists are kept off the No Fly List....remind me again why we have this list in the first place?"
One explanation: the lunatics run the asylum.
bocastephen
Jan 18, 07, 1:43 pm
You'll correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure you meant to say:
"Since DHS already admitted that actual terrorists are kept off the No Fly List....remind me again why we have this list in the first place?"
One explanation: the lunatics run the asylum.
Yes, that's what I meant...so why do we have this list again? Still no supporting answers... :)
Newryman
Jan 18, 07, 2:12 pm
Yes, that's what I meant...so why do we have this list again? Still no supporting answers... :)
To keep the workfare programme alive silly :D :
Actually one of the biggest problems is the way the IT is programmed. As usual politicians believe the answer is in technology and the puter will solve the problem :rolleyes:
As I am having a boring afternoon I thought it may be nice share the yawns :p Here are just some of the systems available and used when compiling the no fly lists, there are I understand more sensitive databases used as well which are not in the public domain, a hit on your name or similar anywhere will cause delays, problems, cock ups and all round frustration!
CLASS (Consular Lookout and Support System) DOS
- Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) makes entries into this database.
- NCIC (see below) is now integrated into CLASS
CCD (Consolidated Consular Database)
- contains SEVIS (see below) data for consulars to access.
NCIC (National Crime Information Center)
- contains criminal record information for police to check when they stop or arrest someone.
- NLETS (National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System)
- above systems contain more than 7 million names, including information from state/local law enforcement agencies (including charges such as "shoplifting," DWI, etc.)
NAILS II (National Automated Immigration Lookout System II) DHS
- NIIS (Nonimmigrant Information System), containing nonimmigrant visa denial information, arrival/departure/overstay (I-94) information.
CLAIMS 3 (Computer Linked Application Information Management System)
CHIMERA
US VISIT
TAL (Technological Alert List)
Now factor into that lot a very common computer function called SOUNDEX is utilised. Soundex is not a system, it is a function.
example:
SELECT SOUNDEX ('katy'), SOUNDEX ('katie');
this would return a number specific to the pronunciation of katy and a number associated with the pronunciation of katie. in this case each would return "K300" which basically indicates that the two's pronunciation is close.
Now soundex is not a system, it is just an algorithm that compares two strings and their associated characters to a pre-assigned values.
A quick look at a basic overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex would explain to an average 10 year old why this is going to result in an outrageous number of false hits and the Cat Stevens scenario referred to earlier in this thread. :confused:
party_boy
Jan 18, 07, 2:54 pm
To keep the workfare programme alive silly :D :
Actually one of the biggest problems is the way the IT is programmed. As usual politicians believe the answer is in technology and the puter will solve the problem :rolleyes:
As I am having a boring afternoon I thought it may be nice share the yawns :p Here are just some of the systems available and used when compiling the no fly lists, there are I understand more sensitive databases used as well which are not in the public domain, a hit on your name or similar anywhere will cause delays, problems, cock ups and all round frustration!
CLASS (Consular Lookout and Support System) DOS
- Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) makes entries into this database.
- NCIC (see below) is now integrated into CLASS
CCD (Consolidated Consular Database)
- contains SEVIS (see below) data for consulars to access.
NCIC (National Crime Information Center)
- contains criminal record information for police to check when they stop or arrest someone.
- NLETS (National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System)
- above systems contain more than 7 million names, including information from state/local law enforcement agencies (including charges such as "shoplifting," DWI, etc.)
NAILS II (National Automated Immigration Lookout System II) DHS
- NIIS (Nonimmigrant Information System), containing nonimmigrant visa denial information, arrival/departure/overstay (I-94) information.
CLAIMS 3 (Computer Linked Application Information Management System)
CHIMERA
US VISIT
TAL (Technological Alert List)
Now factor into that lot a very common computer function called SOUNDEX is utilised. Soundex is not a system, it is a function.
example:
SELECT SOUNDEX ('katy'), SOUNDEX ('katie');
this would return a number specific to the pronunciation of katy and a number associated with the pronunciation of katie. in this case each would return "K300" which basically indicates that the two's pronunciation is close.
Now soundex is not a system, it is just an algorithm that compares two strings and their associated characters to a pre-assigned values.
A quick look at a basic overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex would explain to an average 10 year old why this is going to result in an outrageous number of false hits and the Cat Stevens scenario referred to earlier in this thread. :confused:
Sometimes I wonder if security would be improved if we don't spend all the time in the world making useless acronyms and instead of actually paying attention to whose name is actually added to the list!
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 4:14 pm
Sometimes I wonder if security would be improved if we don't spend all the time in the world making useless acronyms and instead of actually paying attention to whose name is actually added to the list!
Someone wants the credit and the money for naming the systems. :eek:
Newryman
Jan 18, 07, 4:39 pm
Someone wants the credit and the money for naming the systems. :eek:
That is so yesterdays news. Any changes or cuts will mean we need new names which of course means a new fee :D
SAT Lawyer
Jan 18, 07, 4:46 pm
Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) ended up being slowed down when travelling with his wife "Catherine" Stevens. Apparently, Mr. Cat Stevens, aka Yusuf Islam nowadays, being "blacklisted" of sorts led to Mrs. Cat Stevens being flagged down at US airports too. Couldn't happen to a better guy. ;)
Why the heck do the Stevenses need to fly anyway? Can't they just drive wherever the need to go on their Bridge to Nowhere (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm889.cfm)? ;)
seat17D
Jan 18, 07, 5:05 pm
Not to mention that Stevens is a relatively common name among Native Alaskans (no relation to Ted).
Ted could have come out against the list on the basis of his constituents' hassles. But no.
Well, better late than never.
Global_Hi_Flyer
Jan 18, 07, 5:05 pm
Why the heck do the Stevenses need to fly anyway? Can't they just drive wherever the need to go on their Bridge to Nowhere (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm889.cfm)? ;)
Nothing is ever going to change at TSA/DHS until and unless folks with money and politicians are personally affected repeatedly by the problems.
The most influential folks with money (i.e. campaign contributors) fly in private jets, and the politicians can get special treatment. Ergo, the Kettles will have no impact at all. Mark my words.
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 6:01 pm
Why the heck do the Stevenses need to fly anyway? Can't they just drive wherever the need to go on their Bridge to Nowhere (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm889.cfm)? ;)
He doesn't want me to fly with my carry-on luggage. He probably wants us "carry-on only" travellers blacklisted. :D
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 6:03 pm
Nothing is ever going to change at TSA/DHS until and unless folks with money and politicians are personally affected repeatedly by the problems.
The most influential folks with money (i.e. campaign contributors) fly in private jets, and the politicians can get special treatment. Ergo, the Kettles will have no impact at all. Mark my words.
There are ways for non-state actors to get people (including state actors and their relatives) blacklisted without even interfacing with the government mandarins. Can't wait to hear that story realized. :D
GUWonder
Jan 18, 07, 10:06 pm
There are ways for non-state actors to get people (including state actors and their relatives) blacklisted without even interfacing with the government mandarins. Can't wait to hear that story realized. :D
Any bets on when Alberto Gonzalez & companions will be flagged down at an airport by a blacklist? :D
It's a double absurdity -- first, that Cat Stevens was himself on the list in the first place, and then again because of the list's identifying people by a non-unique identifier (first and last name).
As the other have said, the list needs to end, now. Anyone who doubts this needs to re-watch the "60 Minutes" episode in which the woman who ran the list admitted it is full of inaccuracies and intentional omissions of known terrorists, not to mention the well-known problem that it flags everyone with a matching name (like Stevens' wife) to someone on the list.
seat17D
Jan 19, 07, 11:06 pm
Any bets on when Alberto Gonzalez & companions will be flagged down at an airport by a blacklist? :D
I'm surprised it hasn't become a frat house pastime.
thezipper
Jan 20, 07, 12:44 am
they have "death pools"... why can't we start a "blacklist pool" ;)
I'm surprised it hasn't become a frat house pastime.
GUWonder
Jan 20, 07, 12:47 am
I'm surprised it hasn't become a frat house pastime.
Best done overseas. :D
Global_Hi_Flyer
Jan 20, 07, 5:15 pm
Take note of this quote:
Wagner, the customs official, said that though the system for eliminating false positives applies only to international flights, eventually it will extend to domestic travelers.
So, if this is true, all the hulabaloo about this happening and making a difference to the average passenger is just creative sophistry.
Nice.
THe whole story in the WashPost is interesting: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901649.html