oneworld - Same Cities count as a segment

Recently I made a reservation with what I only thought had 16 segments. In fact only had 16 flight segments.

The first AAgent claimed that sames cities (LHR/LGW, EWR/LGA/JFK, etc) as described in https://www.aa.com/content/disclaimers/oneworld_rules.jhtml do NOT count as a stopover, NOR an open jaw, but they DO count as a segment.

Thus if you have 16 real flights then you cannot have any of those be in connections in same cities (as this would increase the count of segments to 17).

I called back, got a different AAgent and tried to re-ticket. After a day the itn had not ticketed, the 2nd [and 3rd] AAgent also confirmed this.

AA will not ticket it because it cannot e-ticket a 17-segment itineray.

If the final city is ORD then you cannot stopover there.

I finalised an itinerary on a OW J award that (mistakenly) had a MIA-GRU leg in F. The agent sent it for supervisor review and ticketing and before it was issued I found I was bumped back to J. In other words, it's pretty certain the "error" will be picked up.

...
LHR-ORD
ORD-DFWIs LHR-ORD-DFW on one flight number (AA67)? If so, it counts as one segment (two sectors).

I suppose they can always hand-write the ticket - hopingthat that someone still knows how to do it manually !

The 16-segment limit also applies to handwritten tickets.

I have made a reservation with 16 segments

Within the itn the segments are

2/15/07 4: TVC-ORD
2/15/07 5: ORD-LGA
2/15/07 6: JFK-MAD
2/16/07 7: MAD-LHR

I have a total of 16 flight segments, but since they want to count this open jaw as a segment now I have 17.

This does not seem right since their website specially states that LGA/JFK/EWR are the same city.

Try calling back AA and refer them to their oneworld award ticket routing rules website. (http://www.aa.com/content/disclaimers/oneworld_rules.jhtml)

Try calling back AA and refer them to their oneworld award ticket routing rules website. (http://www.aa.com/content/disclaimers/oneworld_rules.jhtml)

I will, but I was on the phone already 45 minutes while this AAgent supposedly made sure.

If it is an OW Award flight , then the information you require is all nicely provided on the AA website at http://www.aa.com/content/disclaimers/oneworld_rules.jhtml


An open jaw occurs when you arrive into one city and depart from another city. Travel between the two cities may be by train/bus/separate airline ticket, etc.


It also lists airports within cities which will not count as a open jaw. For New York, the airports are :

Newark - EWR
White Plains/Westchester - HPN
John F Kennedy - JFK
LaGuardia - LGA
Islip/Long Island - ISP

Whether it counts as a segment I don't know

Dave

Dave

...I have a total of 16 flight segments, but since they want to count this open jaw as a segment now I have 17...
I know this is not what you are saying, but could it possibly be that the open jaw that's creating the problem is not the NYC stop, but a first/last city one, and the agent is confused?

I know this is not what you are saying, but could it possibly be that the open jaw that's creating the problem is not the NYC stop, but a first/last city one, and the agent is confused?

Nicely spotted. If the JFK/LGA was being viewed as an open jaw then the trip would be invalid since it would give 2 open jaws ( despite it conflicting with what AA defines as open jaw for an OW award on their website )

Dave

If AA has to issue the ticket, there is no possible way for them to 'delete' the segment. Each airport has to have a code ,and basically JFK and LGA occupy two codes, hence two segments. So if you exceed, that's because each airport requires a seperate booking segment.

Can you not fly ORD-MAD instead of going via NYC?

The 16-segment limit also applies to handwritten tickets.

On oneworld tickets? No - that's 20 segments!

The 16 segment rule applies for all automated ticketings.. e-ticket or paper. Beyond that, AA must write out a manual ticket.

Or else AA may transfer the booking to a SABRE equipped TA and they can issue up to 24 segments on paper automated. But you only need 20 anyway.

There are flights from ORD-JFK too which avoids the LGA-JFK segment however there is only economy class on those flights

Dave

On oneworld tickets? No - that's 20 segments!

I believe the OP is talking about an AAdvantage one world award (quite why this is in OW forum and not in AAdvantage forum I don't know), not a paid fare.

Who knows how the computer is programmed for complex itins like this. If you are going to create complex routings to maximise your value you have to expect sometimes to run up against limits of computer. No problem with paper ticket, but the OP wanted an e-ticket.

I believe the OP is talking about an AAdvantage one world award (quite why this is in OW forum and not in AAdvantage forum I don't know), not a paid fare.

Who knows how the computer is programmed for complex itins like this. If you are going to create complex routings to maximise your value you have to expect sometimes to run up against limits of computer. No problem with paper ticket, but the OP wanted an e-ticket.

Yeah.. I think we either spoil or confuse these newbies too much !

True - it's an award - it's not this forum's problem.

Feedback: when I called back the AAgent quickly noticed the problem. The first agent had messed up. Only 16 segments are allowed.

Feedback: I called back. I think have it ticketed with 16 segments and co-terminals LGA/JFK included (i.e. confidently told the next AAgent to make the change and gave her a credit card).

Based on the rules this seems right anyway.

Feedback: I called back. I think have it ticketed with 16 segments and co-terminals LGA/JFK included (i.e. confidently told the next AAgent to make the change and gave her a credit card).

Based on the rules this seems right anyway.

If there is an issue it will be picked up before ticketing , so keep a track on it having been issued.

Dave

The 16 segment rule applies for all automated ticketings.. e-ticket or paper. Beyond that, AA must write out a manual ticket.

Or else AA may transfer the booking to a SABRE equipped TA and they can issue up to 24 segments on paper automated. But you only need 20 anyway.
So, if I want a 24 segment oneworld award using American Airlines miles, all I have to do is ask AA to handwrite the ticket or transfer the booking to a Sabre equipped travel agent? If so, I must have misconstrued the previous flyertalk discussions about this limit and will certainly change the sticky as soon as this ticketing possibility is confirmed.

I believe the OP is talking about an AAdvantage one world award (quite why this is in OW forum and not in AAdvantage forum I don't know)....

True - it's an award - it's not this forum's problem.

You guys are confusing me. Should this almost 2-year old thread be transferred to the AA forum? And should future threads about oneworld awards instead be in the forum of the airline whose miles are being used for the award?

You guys are confusing me. Should this almost 2-year old thread be transferred to the AA forum? And should future threads about oneworld awards instead be in the forum of the airline whose miles are being used for the award?

Questions about awards are specific to the airline, there isn't a standard set of award rules across all the OW carriers so it would make more sense for it to be located in the carrier specific forum

Im confused about the 2 years ago comment; from what I see, this thread is < 2 days old

Dave

So, if I want a 24 segment oneworld award using American Airlines miles, all I have to do is ask AA to handwrite the ticket or transfer the booking to a Sabre equipped travel agent? If so, I must have misconstrued the previous flyertalk discussions about this limit and will certainly change the sticky as soon as this ticketing possibility is confirmed.

No. The AA awards are , as detailed in the award rules link earlier in the thread "Itinerary may not exceed 16 segments. "


Dave

...Im confused about the 2 years ago comment; from what I see, this thread is < 2 days old

I believe Austinrunner is talking about the sticky post he authored.

The issue of a proper "home" for the AA oneworld award sticky has been discussed before, and obviously there are mixed opinions. IMO there's no perfect forum for it so it might as well stay here, where its author meant it to be. It has been crosslinked in an AA forum sticky, so little harm is done by letting things as they are.

Im confused about the 2 years ago comment; from what I see, this thread is < 2 days old
Sorry, my error! I was indeed referring to the sticky that I authored and maintain.

The issue of a proper "home" for the AA oneworld award sticky has been discussed before, and obviously there are mixed opinions. IMO there's no perfect forum for it so it might as well stay here, where its author meant it to be. It has been crosslinked in an AA forum sticky, so little harm is done by letting things as they are.

I dunno. I would have thought that if posting a question which is specifically about an AAdvantage award would have found a perfect home in the AAdvantage forum .

I would have seen this akin to posting a question about a AA partner award where booking travel on BA in the BA forum

*shrug*

Dave

And should future threads about oneworld awards instead be in the forum of the airline whose miles are being used for the award?

That would make the most sense to me. Each FFP has its own set of rules. As this thread illustrates it can get confusing at times to be discussing an award ticket for a particular FFP.

In *A, mostly, the threads relating to awards and award rules are posted in the home airline forum. This not only reduces confusion but also provides more visibility to the question in the forum with more FTers who are familiar with the intracacies of the award rules.

As this thread illustrates it can get confusing at times to be discussing an award ticket for a particular FFP.
Yet, the title of this thread specifically references "AA miles.":rolleyes:

I would have thought that if posting a question which is specifically about an AAdvantage award would have found a perfect home in the AAdvantage forum .
On the other hand, AA calls this award a "oneworld" award.

On the other hand, AA calls this award a "oneworld" award.

So - other FFPs also have something called a OneWorld award, but yet the rules are very different.

So - other FFPs also have something called a OneWorld award, but yet the rules are very different.

And surprisingly, it's not obvious that a "oneworld award" unlike a "oneworld RTW" would have carrier-specific differences. I myself would not have made that assumption off the top of my head, simply because it's not the type of award I've ever booked.

So while I agree, now knowing that it's AA-specific, I cannot fault the question being asked here in error.

Steve

So - other FFPs also have something called a OneWorld award, but yet the rules are very different.
Very true, hence the reason that I entitled the stickey "oneworld awards using
American Airlines miles." And this is the reason that various contributors to this forum have suggested the creation of other stickeys containing the rules for other oneworld airlines, e.g., "oneworld awards using Qantas miles."

I would have seen this akin to posting a question about a AA partner award where booking travel on BA in the BA forum.That wouldn't do as it would get in the way of all the OT threads. ;)

Very true, hence the reason that I entitled the stickey "oneworld awards using
American Airlines miles." And this is the reason that various contributors to this forum have suggested the creation of other stickeys containing the rules for other oneworld airlines, e.g., "oneworld awards using Qantas miles."

But if someone pops onto FT looking for rules for a QFF award , where would be the obvious place to look , here or in the QF forum? I suggest that the logical place to look for/ask about QFF awards would be the QF forum.

Also, should someone manage to get the hang of the search function, would someone be more likely to search the forum of the scheme or not?

Personally I think that the OW forum is perfect for dealing with OW products since they are standard regardless of who isssues them, but that the own carrier forum is the best place for FF scheme specific questions

Dave

Also, should someone manage to get the hang of the search function, would someone be more likely to search the forum of the scheme or not?

Personally I think that the OW forum is perfect for dealing with OW products since they are standard regardless of who isssues them, but that the own carrier forum is the best place for FF scheme specific questions

Here here! ^

Whilst I love reading the OW forum, the biggest problem is that sometimes people seem to assume that it is an extension of AAnother forum, despite the fact that OW is a partnership of 8 airlines (soon to be 10).

Personally I think that the OW forum is perfect for dealing with OW products since they are standard regardless of who isssues them, but that the own carrier forum is the best place for FF scheme specific questions.I disAAgree. ;)

I noticed that AA oneWORLD award specific sticky many moons ago and wondered about it.

I came to the conclusion that the reality is that AA do have the largest proportion of oneWORLD frequent flyer members and this us a USA based website; so it's possibly better off here than on the AA forum where it might get 'drowned' by all the other posts in that prolific forum.

The questions pertain to OneWorld and the expertise within this forum cannot be replicated within the other airline forums.

I don't know how different the rules are withing BA/Qantas/etc. versus AA, but I I like the expertise being stored withing the OneWorld forum.

Conversely, I don't think many people in AA even know these AAwards exist and would benefit from OneWorld discussion from time to timel.

Since it appears we are in a generic two-cent throwing mood here, let me just add that I'm perfectly happy with the sticky being here rather than in the AA forum. While I agree it might not fit perfectly, I think it works well here.

The questions pertain to OneWorld and the expertise within this forum cannot be replicated within the other airline forums.

I don't know how different the rules are withing BA/Qantas/etc. versus AA, but I I like the expertise being stored withing the OneWorld forum.

Conversely, I don't think many people in AA even know these AAwards exist and would benefit from OneWorld discussion from time to timel.

AA OneWorld awards though have nothing to do with OneWorld in respect that no OneWorld carrier imposes any conditions on the awards - it is AA that manages both the bookings as well as the booking conditions. Therefore I would still stand by my original statement that AA OneWorld awards are largely irrelevant to this forum. I would however retract that statement if there were stickies that pertained to OW awards issued by other OW carriers.

Perhaps you should suggest to the AA mods that a sticky be set up on the AA forum that covers AA issues OW awards?

Therefore I would still stand by my original statement that AA OneWorld awards are largely irrelevant to this forum. I would however retract that statement if there were stickies that pertained to OW awards issued by other OW carriers.
Then perhaps you should write one. I'm not aware of anything that would prevent you (or anyone else) from writing a "oneworld awards using [name your oneworld carrier] miles" sticky.

Bump

Even though their own website disagrees, AA claims that same cities (LHR,LGW) count as an extra segment.

I talked to 3 AAgents and everyone concurred.

Bump

Even though their own website disagrees, AA claims that same cities (LHR,LGW) count as an extra segment.

I talked to 3 AAgents and everyone concurred.


I didn't see anything in the rules that said that a surface sector from LHR-LGW was not a sector, just that it does not count as your single permitted open jaw

Dave

I didn't see anything in the rules that said that a surface sector from LHR-LGW was not a sector, just that it does not count as your single permitted open jaw

Dave

Likewise, I did not see anything that said it was a sector. I am done with my ticket...does not affect me anymore.

It seems that if you are going through the trouble of listing same cities that it would imply that it 'is the same cities' and thus would count just like being at the same city.

It really should. From my talks with the AAgents I think this was a technical issue with their system rather than an actual rule.

Something about 'ARANCO' sp? Does anyone know what that means?

I assume that it referred to ARUNK ( arrival unknown ) for your surface sector between the 2 airports of the same city.

Dave

I assume that it referred to ARUNK ( arrival unknown ) for your surface sector between the 2 airports of the same city.

Dave

Yes, the last agent said she was going to try to delete the 'ARUNK' and re-submit for re-ticketing.

She said the ARUNK added the extra segment.

A few hours later she called back [I very impressed with this]. She said the ticketing was not accepted.

Again, it does not affect me anymore, but from what I can see if AA is going through the trouble of defining a 'same city' it really should be like a 'same city'

Again, it does not affect me anymore, but from what I can see if AA is going through the trouble of defining a 'same city' it really should be like a 'same city'

Well, same city doesn't imply same airport . It only lists the cities for which (a) the airports do not count as an open jaw and (b) the airports which count the same as for max visits to a city.

Dave

Well, same city doesn't imply same airport . It only lists the cities for which (a) the airports do not count as an open jaw and (b) the airports which count the same as for max visits to a city.

Dave

And three AAgents agreed with you so you are indeed right...still does not make sense to me...does not seem to cost (real or perceived) any more to them. From my conversation with them they agreed...it seemed to be some sort of system issue.

Haven't figured out how QF gets around printing the 20+ line items needed to print a OW RTW ticket. I do know that AA in BKK couldn't do it and handwrote the ticket rewrite (note not reissue). Kudos to the AA general sales agent and staff in an case. I won't even mention the fiasco almost created by adding two VIPs to the LONE4......

back on topic.

I suspect that the AA computer ticket processing is limited to 16 line items and when you change airports you end up with a (allowed) surface segment but handling that on the ticket forces you into an additional line item in the ticket. or 4 of the old style four-coupon tickets.

I suspect I didn't explain that too well and the only confirmation of that would have to be from someone behind the IT wall at AA.


Happy wandering

Fred

Haven't figured out how QF gets around printing the 20+ line items needed to print a OW RTW ticket. I do know that AA in BKK couldn't do it and handwrote the ticket rewrite (note not reissue). Kudos to the AA general sales agent and staff in an case. I won't even mention the fiasco almost created by adding two VIPs to the LONE4......


Because Qantas doesn't use Sabre

Dave

On the OW paid tickets, one can easily have the routing listed as LON. That allows one to go either XXX-LHR or XXX-LGW. Not sure if it works on the OW award ticket though.

You guys are confusing me. Should this almost 2-year old thread be transferred to the AA forum? And should future threads about oneworld awards instead be in the forum of the airline whose miles are being used for the award?Yes, and yes (there is no such thing as a oneworld "oneworld" award, the sticky in question discusses "AA oneworld awards"). Having one sticky per airline's FFP here in the OW forum is just silly - they all belong in the airline forum.

Also, should someone manage to get the hang of the search function, would someone be more likely to search the forum of the scheme or not?

Personally I think that the OW forum is perfect for dealing with OW products since they are standard regardless of who isssues them, but that the own carrier forum is the best place for FF scheme specific questions

DaveHere here! ^

Whilst I love reading the OW forum, the biggest problem is that sometimes people seem to assume that it is an extension of AAnother forum, despite the fact that OW is a partnership of 8 airlines (soon to be 10).^ ^ Indeed, there is likely to be ample discussion of the new entrants.

To me, it's quite simple. As the AA-"oneworld" sticky contains information only of interest to AAdvantage members, it does not belong here. Keeping it here dilutes the purpose of the OW board; posts here should be related to oneworld issues, not people who are confused about one particular type of AA award. Redeeming AA miles on OW partners isn't the point of this board - if that were used as a proposal for a new board, I trust it would be rejected. Yet we have a sticky endorsing that position :confused: :confused: We shouldn't be changing the purpose of this forum to fit the assumption (by confused members of another forum) of what it's for.

(Now I've discovered the "recent discussion" mentioned in this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7142923#post7142923), obviously referring to the thread I'm posting in now. Seems like lots some opposition to the sticky remaining, and some neutral-ish acceptance but not much endorsement - on balance it seems the "average" opinion is that the sticky belongs in the AA forum).

In case it's not obvious, I dislike excessive stickies (even on-topic ones). They just clutter the place up :p ;)

Yes, and yes (there is no such thing as a oneworld "oneworld" award...posts here should be related to oneworld issues...Ah, but that is the beauty of Oneworld -- the alliance that isn't. Every single aspect of the Oneworld alliance benefits (check-in, lounge access, priority, etc.) is different for each airline; with your logic, the OW forum should cease to exist, as there is nothing that can be discussed here (except maybe why OW HQ is located in YVR). Even the fare products have key airline specific differences. And having them centralized, allowing comparison between the different airlines, is very valuable. Yet by your logic, the fact that AA issued OWE is cheaper than the identical BA issued ticket belongs in the AA forum, after all only AA customers will get that lower price.

Let's leave well enough alone. This forum has worked well for the past 5 years. Why change now?

Let's leave well enough alone. This forum has worked well for the past 5 years. Why change now?

I agree entirely.

Ah, but that is the beauty of Oneworld -- the alliance that isn't. Every single aspect of the Oneworld alliance benefits (check-in, lounge access, priority, etc.) is different for each airline; with your logic, the OW forum should cease to exist, as there is nothing that can be discussed here (except maybe why OW HQ is located in YVR). Even the fare products have key airline specific differences. And having them centralized, allowing comparison between the different airlines, is very valuable. Yet by your logic, the fact that AA issued OWE is cheaper than the identical BA issued ticket belongs in the AA forum, after all only AA customers will get that lower price.That's taking my view to the extreme :(. Clearly the OWE ticket is a specific OW product available from all OW carriers and subject to the same rules (although interpretation of those rules seems to vary ;)). AA partner awards are just that - AA, and have no underlying OW product.

My point about that sticky is that the author has clearly stated that it is AAdvantage-specific information and therefore of no relevance to people of other OW programs. OK, I accept that because that's his choice - but it then means the sticky should be on the AA board not here. :cool:

...OK, I accept that because that's his choice - but it then means the sticky should be on the AA board not here. :cool:
Maybe, but consider this: I frequent the AA forum and the OW forum, and can say that, IMO, the depth of knowledge here (yes, I'm talking about the AA OW award, not just the OWE) is greater here than over there and, perhaps of more valuable to a newbie, the questions here are answered with real expertise, civility and patience, traits that are often missing at the AA forum. It is the regular contribution of real experts here, behaving in a courteous manner, that makes this place a better home for the sticky

So, maybe the sticky doesn't belong here, but from the POV of a newbie, or someone who enjoys civility, I am glad it's here and vote for keeping it here.

. It is the regular contribution of real experts here, behaving in a courteous manner, that makes this place a better home for the sticky

So, maybe the sticky doesn't belong here, but from the POV of a newbie, or someone who enjoys civility, I am glad it's here and vote for keeping it here.


That is not a good reason imo. Using that logic, then it should be ok to post anything unrelated to OW. Should this forum cover all AA queries on that logic?


Ah, but that is the beauty of Oneworld -- the alliance that isn't. Every single aspect of the Oneworld alliance benefits (check-in, lounge access, priority, etc.) is different for each airline;


Individual airlines have their own benefits ( and in case of AA , their own limitations ) but there are a set of standard OW benefits


Dave

My point about that sticky is that the author has clearly stated that it is AAdvantage-specific information and therefore of no relevance to people of other OW programs. OK, I accept that because that's his choice - but it then means the sticky should be on the AA board not here. :cool:
I don't recall authorizing you to speak for me. What I have said is that the sticky applies only to oneworld awards using American Airlines miles. I have also said that I have no problem with anyone creating another sticky for oneworld awards using other oneworld airline miles. That is the beginning and the end of what I have said on this particular subject.

And just for the record, the sticky I authored was not the first post on the subject covered by that sticky. Far from it. This forum has been talking about oneworld awards for as long as I've been a member of FlyerTalk. New posts on that subject continue to flow in, quite apart from the sticky. The sticky is simply a synthesis of those discussions.

Carry on.

My point about that sticky is that the author has clearly stated that it is AAdvantage-specific information and therefore of no relevance to people of other OW programs. OK, I accept that because that's his choice - but it then means the sticky should be on the AA board not here. :cool:I don't recall authorizing you to speak for me. What I have said is that the sticky applies only to oneworld awards using American Airlines miles. I have also said that I have no problem with anyone creating another sticky for oneworld awards using other oneworld airline miles. That is the beginning and the end of what I have said on this particular subject.

I would strenuously object to anyone but me modifying the first post of that thread. And I think you're seriously underestimating the amount of work that would be necessary to ensure that the rules for just one other oneworld airline are presented fully and accurately, unless that person already has a complete and official copy of all the rules for that airline. I doubt that's the case.Well, not quite the "beginning and end" (I used quote marks just then to show that I was using your exact words). Below is what you actually said:
But you're right in saying that the thread doesn't apply to you if you're using non-AA miles to get oneworld awards. I don't mean to be brutal and cause anyone else unnecessary angst, but the thread was never intended to apply to non-AA miles.

I believe I captured the gist of the above quote in my post below (note that I didn't use quote marks, so clearly I wasn't quoting you exactly), so I'm not sure what the comment about you not authorizing me to speak for you is about :confused: :confused:

My point about that sticky is that the author has clearly stated that it is AAdvantage-specific information and therefore of no relevance to people of other OW programs. OK, I accept that because that's his choice - but it then means the sticky should be on the AA board not here. :cool:

As for your suggestion of having lots of stickies here for all other programs, well you might not have a problem with it, but just because we have one off-topic sticky doesn't mean we should have an off-topic sticky for each and every OW FFP. I don't think any stickies about OW awards for a given FFP are relevant here.

And just for the record, the sticky I authored was not the first post on the subject covered by that sticky. Far from it. This forum has been talking about oneworld awards for as long as I've been a member of FlyerTalk. New posts on that subject continue to flow in, quite apart from the sticky. The sticky is simply a synthesis of those discussions.Ahhh, I finally understand (I think). I believe that what you're saying is that because we have off-topic posts, that we should have an off-topic sticky as well. Have I got that right, or perhaps I have misunderstood?

The OneWorld forum exists.

I think questions / stickies / etc. regarding OneWorld awards / purchases --even if related to a specific airline -- should be in the OneWorld forum.

The other forums are too busy -- more importantly as stated in my first line that is the purpose of the OneWorld forum: to discuss OneWorld 'stuff'

I could be convinced otherwise, but I think FT in general benefits the most here.