Religious Travelers - This can't be Kosher (Costco)!

I TRAVELLED to a Costco warehouse yesterday and was perusing the frozen aisles, lamenting the use of various processing agents listed on the various packages. Suddenly, I came accross a giant package containing many month's supply of organic frozen chicken breasts. On the label the word "Kosher" popped out at me, probably because as a Muslim I try to eat only Kosher/Halal products and have been programmed to sniff out these two words on food labels since early childhood. Well, on closer inspection of the product label, it appears the chicken breasts were not Kosher at all. The word Kosher was prominently displayed on the packaging but it referred to Kosher salt as well as one or two other agents being added to the chicken breasts during processing.

My questions, which expose my ignorance are:

1) Do any Jewish schools of thought consider non-Kosher chicken to which Kosher salt has been later added to be a Kosher product?

2) Would some Jews who normally keep Kosher consider the addition of Kosher salt to a non-Kosher product to be acceptable from a religious standpoint in some situations (like TRAVEL)?

3) Do you consider this false advertising? I can see someone picking up the package because they think it contains Kosher chicken, going home, preparing it and later being upset when they discover the meat was not really Kosher.

I'm Jewish and can't imagine any scenario under which adding kosher salt to a non-kosher meat would make that meat acceptable. We don't bring non-kosher meat into the house, so there would never be an opportunity to add salt to it.

As for question 3, without seeing the size of the label, I can't make any judgment as to whether this is false advertising, but it does sound fishy to me. It will also make me look twice as hard at the packaging next time I buy meat at Costco. Thanks for the warning!

Mike

Mikeef,

Thanks for your reply. I suspected as much.

Can I ask what type of Kosher meat you purchase at Costco? I have only seen a couple of Kosher products (Hotdogs actually) at my local store.

Do any Jewish schools of thought consider non-Kosher chicken to which Kosher salt has been later added to be a Kosher product?

Absolutely nothing, under any circumstances, can make non-kosher meat kosher.

(Although the reverse is true. Kosher meat can be made non-kosher simply by the addition of any dairy product.)


Would some Jews who normally keep Kosher consider the addition of Kosher salt to a non-Kosher product to be acceptable from a religious standpoint in some situations (like TRAVEL)?

There are extreme circumstances when even the strictest of Orthodox Jews are allowed to eat non-kosher food. They basically come down to a matter of life or death.

If your only choice is to eat non-kosher food or starve to death, you would be permitted to eat it.

If you had some kind of strange, life-threatening, disease for which the only cure was an ingredient found only in ham, you would not only be permitted to eat the ham but actually required to do so.

It is not only a matter of your own life which must be saved. It can be the lives of others. During World War II, American rabbis ruled that U.S. soldiers were permitted to eat non-kosher food while in service -- if they did not, it was reasoned, they would be unable to serve and thus prolong the war, putting other lives at risk.

In most cases, however -- such as the travel you mentioned -- keeping kosher food is merely an inconvenience (or, at worst, leaving you hungry for a day or so) so it is not permitted to eat non-kosher.

I am very allergic to shellfish. If a food is really Kosher you won't find any shellfish in it. Sometimes the juice from cooked shellfish is used as a flavoring in non-Kosher foods.

I watch for actual and valid Kosher labeling when shopping.

Thanks for the warning. I'll watch more carefully.

Do Halal foods include shellfsih? If they do not, I may well have another food group to use as an option especially when traveling.

It's important to note that one who keeps one set of dietary laws cannot necessarily rely on the other. For example, while Muslims and Jews share the prohibition against pork and mixing mild and meat, animals that are supervised under Halal are not necessarily kosher. People who keep kosher must decide which set of kosher certification organizations they will hold by, such as the familiar OU (U inside a circle) which is the symbol of the Orthodox Union.

Happy Travels

It's important to note that one who keeps one set of dietary laws cannot necessarily rely on the other. For example, while Muslims and Jews share the prohibition against pork and mixing mild and meat, animals that are supervised under Halal are not necessarily kosher. People who keep kosher must decide which set of kosher certification organizations they will hold by, such as the familiar OU (U inside a circle) which is the symbol of the Orthodox Union.

Happy Travels

what you said is true, but if Im wrong I Know the OP will Gladly correct me, Someone who keeps Kosher will not eat Halal. However someone who eats Halal has no problem eating Kosher.

The use of the salt is for a means of draining the blood. Meat that has been slaughtered according to Jewish Religious Law and is not Salted Must be washed down every 3 days. Once its been salted the watering down every 3 days is no longer needed.

So its not the Salt that makes the meat kosher but it is the Unsalting that might render the meat that was properly saughtered no longer kosher, if it wasnt washed down before the salting took place.


I would consider it very Misleading if the pkg has been printed as you wrote. Theres actually mags and websites that deal with the Mislabeling , theres alot of it. Along with the Misuse of a trademarked kosher symbol, eg, the OU that was mentioned above. Sometimes the Kosher authority has removed their agreement with a company for many a reason and the company will still package their product with the symbol still on it, other times a company has it on its pkg without ever having been declared Kosher by them. Sometimes its an honest error, numerous times its not and the product itself was never Kosher to begin with.

As for obtaining Kosher food, its alot easier today then ever before, especially in the US . Harder in Europe,Asia etc. One might not be eating meat but theres enough Junk Food out there so one will not die. Besides between fruits, vegatables and Tuna thats marked Kosher its a no-brainer.

As for Costco, I guess it depends upon the part of the US one is in as to what if any Kosher meat products they may have. Then of cause is the Level of being Kosher, I dont know of many Religious Jews (sabbath Observing) that will eat a Hebrew National Frank, Im not saying it isnt Kosher only that most people who are Religious wouldnt eat it as the level of kosher supervision is not to a high standard (no matter what their commericals say about answering to ahigher authority). The Rabbi who for many yrs gave HN its Kosher supervision would not eat the products himself.

as for Chickhen anything by Empire is Good. (was gonna say OK but its OU, the OK and OU are 2 different Kosher supervising organizations , a little pun). Next time Im in Costco Ill look around, alot of their canned goods have proper supervision as does their cakes/cookies here in NY. ( Im not talking about the Kirkland Brand itself as say Starkist Tuna or Heinz Ketchup- I highly doubt that Id ever find any fresh meat taht is kosher).

what you said is true, but if Im wrong I Know the OP will Gladly correct me, Someone who keeps Kosher will not eat Halal. However someone who eats Halal has no problem eating Kosher.

Among Muslims there are two schools of thought. The first takes a simple application of the Halal concept. Namely, any animal that is not considered a scavanger, a geriatric or a suckling baby can become Halal (except piggies of course). All that is required for an animal to become Halal is that it must be slaughtered in the name of God. Many Muslims (including me) consider an animal slaughtered in God's name to be Halal. Since Kosher meets this definition and because we consider Judaism to be a sister-religion, many of us have no problem eating Kosher meat.

OTOH, many Muslims will say that for meat to be considered Halal, the animal must be slaughtered by a person reciting a specific Quranic verse.

There are many other stated requirements which I believe are addressed by Kosher laws too. Namely, the animal must not know it is about to be slaughtered, that the knife used is sharpened such that the act of slitting the blood supply to the brain and the nervous system can be done in one single stroke, that as much blood as possible leave the animal, etc.

In answer to oldpenny 16....

shellfish is hallal

I am very allergic to shellfish. If a food is really Kosher you won't find any shellfish in it. Sometimes the juice from cooked shellfish is used as a flavoring in non-Kosher foods.

I watch for actual and valid Kosher labeling when shopping.

Thanks for the warning. I'll watch more carefully.

Do Halal foods include shellfsih? If they do not, I may well have another food group to use as an option especially when traveling.

Any shellfish that are not considered scavangers might be found in Halal products.

I hope this does not come off as an ignorant question, but being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't know the answer.

Do either methods (Halal and Kosher) specify the killing of the animal about to be eaten must be done in a humane, pain-free manner (or as pain-free as possible)?

I hope this does not come off as an ignorant question, but being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't know the answer.

Do either methods (Halal and Kosher) specify the killing of the animal about to be eaten must be done in a humane, pain-free manner (or as pain-free as possible)?

IIRC, shechita (for kosher slaughter) is basically the same kind of process as dhabia halal (for halal slaughter) .... a cut across the throat that has the animal bleed to death.

I hope this does not come off as an ignorant question, but being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't know the answer.

Do either methods (Halal and Kosher) specify the killing of the animal about to be eaten must be done in a humane, pain-free manner (or as pain-free as possible)?

This has long been a point of criticism from animal-rights groups. I know PETA and the Green Party in Germany have sought to have the slaughter of animals for halal or kosher meat outlawed on various occasions as they consider it inhumane. They have not been successful in doing so.

Personally, I am neutral on the issue, but it is a very contentious point between religious Jews and (more commonly, at least in Germany) religious Muslims and those who believe strongly in animal rights.

I hope this does not come off as an ignorant question, but being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't know the answer.

Do either methods (Halal and Kosher) specify the killing of the animal about to be eaten must be done in a humane, pain-free manner (or as pain-free as possible)?

Both require them to be killed as humanely as possible but the methods to insure this were those known in the days of the Old Testament (not stunning them before killing them). There may well be more humane methods today but the Old Testament requirements still are in effect.

If the PETA/Greens proposals which Alex mentioned are put into law, the practical effect will be that all religious Jews and Moslems will be forced to leave Germany (and England, where there is a similar push).

If the PETA/Greens proposals which Alex mentioned are put into law, the practical effect will be that all religious Jews and Moslems will be forced to leave Germany (and England, where there is a similar push).So these laws that are proposed, is that no meat can be sold unless slaughtered in a particular way? If not, then I'd assume that a change would cause a significant increase in the food budget where kosher/halal meats are imported, and not drive the people eating under the dietary restrictions to move away (although that would likely come over time). If it is proposed that the food can't be sold unless meeting their conditions - that's a very tough law and I can see it causing issues for those that are restricted in their diet.

So these laws that are proposed, is that no meat can be sold unless slaughtered in a particular way? If not, then I'd assume that a change would cause a significant increase in the food budget where kosher/halal meats are imported, and not drive the people eating under the dietary restrictions to move away (although that would likely come over time).

The proposed laws (at least the British one) would require that the animals be killed in a particular way.

This would not drive up costs for kosher/halal meat -- it would make the meat unkosher/non-halal.

Cost is not the question. Indeed, the current kosher/halal regulations make meat more expensive than ordinary meat. Religious Jews/Moslems would be forced to leave not because of economic reasons but because they would be unable to eat any meat killed in these countries.

The proposed laws (at least the British one) would require that the animals be killed in a particular way.

This would not drive up costs for kosher/halal meat -- it would make the meat unkosher/non-halal.

Cost is not the question. Indeed, the current kosher/halal regulations make meat more expensive than ordinary meat. Religious Jews/Moslems would be forced to leave not because of economic reasons but because they would be unable to eat any meat killed in these countries.
the additional cost i was referring to was import costs of being in frozen cuts from somewhere else and whether that was allowed under the proposed legislation.

The proposed laws (at least the British one) would require that the animals be killed in a particular way.

This would not drive up costs for kosher/halal meat -- it would make the meat unkosher/non-halal.

Cost is not the question. Indeed, the current kosher/halal regulations make meat more expensive than ordinary meat. Religious Jews/Moslems would be forced to leave not because of economic reasons but because they would be unable to eat any meat killed in these countries.

Dovster describes the problem perfectly. It would probably not come to a mass exodus of Jews/Muslims though - the laws proposed (which are unlikely to be passed, IMO) would be legislation against animal cruelty, not food safety legislation.

This is an important difference, because imported meat would not be affected. There are a few crimes for which you can be tried in Germany even if they happened outside Germany (think child molesters, etc.), but cruelty to animals is not one of them. Therefore the slaughter of animals according to kosher/halal tradition within Germany would be outlawed - the import of such meat from other countries would not be a problem under this legislation, provided the meat met EU food safety guidelines.

the additional cost i was referring to was import costs of being in frozen cuts from somewhere else and whether that was allowed under the proposed legislation.

You made your post while I was typing mine. Yes, such meat would be allowed.

I don't think halal/kosher meat would become significantly more expensive though. With the EU common market, there is already a lot of import/export of meat going on between the member nations, and producers in foreign countries may even be closer than domestic producers. A halal kebab stand in Düsseldorf, for example, is geographically closer to all of the Netherlands and Belgium, most of Denmark and Luxembourg, as well as parts of France than it would be to Munich, for example.

I could only imagine an increase in prices due to decreased competition, but that would no doubt be temporary.

I would think that by anesthetizing the animals before killing them would placate the anti-cruelty arguments.

In doing so, however, even if the blood is drained, do all traces of anesthetic gas or liquid leave the animal as well? I would imagine eating Halal meat with traces of anesthetics (even minute amounts) would go against the Muslim tradition of avoiding intoxicants.

Any shellfish that are not considered scavangers might be found in Halal products.

So basically I can't assume that Halal foods are free of shellfish although they might be. Am I thinking correctly?

Thanks for helping me. I travel a great deal. Sometimes it is hard to find something safe to eat.

I would think that by anesthetizing the animals before killing them would placate the anti-cruelty arguments.

In doing so, however, even if the blood is drained, do all traces of anesthetic gas or liquid leave the animal as well? I would imagine eating Halal meat with traces of anesthetics (even minute amounts) would go against the Muslim tradition of avoiding intoxicants.

According to Halacha (Jewish Law) the animal cannot be stunned or anesthetized before slaughter. One of the few "new" practices which was introduced to calm the anti slaughter groups was the holding pen which prevented the animal from moving around and thus possibly causing it less pain. Though even this was not accepted by all Rabbinic authorities

Kashrut is a combination of various factors, the type of meat, the way it was slaughtered, the treatment given afterwards (salting etc) and preparation (no contact with dairy products or other unkosher food)
So getting back to the original question no amount of salting can perform any "magic" to make unkosher ,kosher

I have shopped COSTCO in the major NY Metro stores and have never seen fresh kosher meat, but there are are pleanty of national marketed packaged grocery goods and in the major Jewish areas, (Hackensak NJ, Lawrence NY and Brooklyn, NY) a fresh Kosher Bakery, which is just great

I have shopped COSTCO in the major NY Metro stores and have never seen fresh kosher meat, but there are are pleanty of national marketed packaged grocery goods and in the major Jewish areas, (Hackensak NJ, Lawrence NY and Brooklyn, NY) a fresh Kosher Bakery, which is just greatand don't forget the one in rockland county (i think officially Nanuet) - it was like being in a totally different store with what they carry versus what I'm used to seeing.

Raised orthodox myself.

Most if not all "commercial" kosher slaughter is disgusting, cruel, and barbaric. If you have the nerve to see and face it, just google away. If you just want to eat what you want to eat, then don't bother.

If the PETA/Greens proposals which Alex mentioned are put into law, the practical effect will be that all religious Jews and Moslems will be forced to leave Germany (and England, where there is a similar push).

Maybe that's what they have in mind. :rolleyes:

I would think that by anesthetizing the animals before killing them would placate the anti-cruelty arguments.

In doing so, however, even if the blood is drained, do all traces of anesthetic gas or liquid leave the animal as well? I would imagine eating Halal meat with traces of anesthetics (even minute amounts) would go against the Muslim tradition of avoiding intoxicants.

Anesthetics in trace amounts in meat wouldn't make it non-halal. Eating the meat of a sick, dying or geriatric animal -- perhaps those requiring anesthetics -- would make it non-halal at least in some opinions; but the trace elements of anesthetics wouldn't by itself make it non-halal. (Either way, this is one I presume gets ignored at a lot of so-called halal butchershops and abbatoirs, but mainly because the butchershop isn't interested in full disclosure but is interested in $.)

So basically I can't assume that Halal foods are free of shellfish although they might be. Am I thinking correctly?

Thanks for helping me. I travel a great deal. Sometimes it is hard to find something safe to eat.

A lot of muslims won't eat any shellfish whatsover ... while others will. I've yet to hear about a halal meal on a flight including shrimp, crab, lobster, etc., but then again I order neither kosher nor halal meals for my flights.

I'd like to hear more about this myself too.

Raised orthodox myself.

Most if not all "commercial" kosher slaughter is disgusting, cruel, and barbaric. If you have the nerve to see and face it, just google away. If you just want to eat what you want to eat, then don't bother.

Slaughterhouses of all types do not make a pretty picture .... but the meat still tastes good. :)

I live in cattle country. I don't need to say more about that.

In Cape Town South Africa which is known for fantastic seafood, I ate several meals at a Halal restaurant that had a vegetarian menu. In order cities I've eaten at 'milk' and 'meat' Kosher restaurants.

I carry cards with my shellfish allergies explained in a variety of languages including Malay, Chinese, Japanese, German, and French. I need to get one in Arabic. These are commercially available, but I've just had them written out for me when I arrive in a new language area. Yes, I do have them proof read by several people.

On Singapore Airlines vegetarian and Halal vegetarian are two entirely different meals. When possible (and not all airlines often these options) I order Kosher or Halal vegetarian meals. I feel that doing so gives me double protection: the religious seal of approval and the vegetarian limitations. The best Kosher meals I've had were out of LHR or LGW on British Airways. Singapore Airlines seems to be the most sympathic to the religious and dietary needs of its passengers.

British Airways failed me completely in first class out of Cape Town when the all the meal options had shellfish. The flight attendants were embarrassed, but managed to cobble together a meal for me out of dinner rolls, cheese and fruit.

I am extremely grateful to anyone who can help me (and others) on this matter.

I am extremely grateful to anyone who can help me (and others) on this matter.

Just eat kosher food -- by definition it has no shellfish.

In fact, when flying Coach anywhere in the world (except out of Israel), anybody would be well-advised to ask for kosher meals.

Reason: Many airlines don't bother getting different kosher meals for Coach and for Biz. They have one kosher meal for them both. It is larger, and better, than the ordinary Coach meal but not quite as good as the Biz meal.

(In fact, on DL, AF, and AZ, the package even notes that it is for Y and J classes.)

This does not hold true for flights out of Tel Aviv, unfortunately. As El Al serves only kosher food, DL (and I imagine other airlines as well) can pick up separate Y and J meals easily in TLV and do so.

Just eat kosher food -- by definition it has no shellfish.

In fact, when flying Coach anywhere in the world (except out of Israel), anybody would be well-advised to ask for kosher meals.

Reason: Many airlines don't bother getting different kosher meals for Coach and for Biz. They have one kosher meal for them both. It is larger, and better, than the ordinary Coach meal but not quite as good as the Biz meal.

(In fact, on DL, AF, and AZ, the package even notes that it is for Y and J classes.)

This does not hold true for flights out of Tel Aviv, unfortunately. As El Al serves only kosher food, DL (and I imagine other airlines as well) can pick up separate Y and J meals easily in TLV and do so.

Does a special meal order have any impact on being selected (or not selected) for operational upgrades on long-haul flights?

From what you've included above, it sounds like putting in for a special meal should have no detrimental impact on being selected for operational upgrades since "catering" ought not to be an issue.

Does a special meal order have any impact on being selected (or not selected) for operational upgrades on long-haul flights?

From what you've included above, it sounds like putting in for a special meal should have no detrimental impact on being selected for operational upgrades since "catering" ought not to be an issue.

I have only had one operational upgrade on a Trans-Atlantic flight. I was actually very surprised to get it as I was a Delta Silver Medallion, flying on Delta metal, but on an Air France itinerary. I was certain that there had to be higher level medallions than me on board.

Others I have spoken to about this have come up with two theories:

1. AF had outsold its alloted Y seats, so DL upgraded one of its passengers (me) to Biz and charged AF for the difference. I was selected because DL wanted to give one of its own Medallions preference and there was no other DL Medallion on an AF ticket.

2. I was selected because I had asked for a kosher meal and DL would not have to fork out for a Biz Class dinner.

I don't know which is correct -- and your guess would be as good as mine.

Oddly, with all the other trans-Atlantic flights I have been on, none of them has been sold out in Y so no one was upgraded.

I have been told that ordering a special meal prevented an upgrade and also a seat change within your own purchased class of service.

There is a history of long debates on this subject on FT.

Also on long haul flights, special meals are often served first so you may lose out on sleep.

Does a special meal order have any impact on being selected (or not selected) for operational upgrades on long-haul flights?

From what you've included above, it sounds like putting in for a special meal should have no detrimental impact on being selected for operational upgrades since "catering" ought not to be an issue.

1 side effect at least with AA was if you didnt get the Upgrade before 25 hrs before the flight , and got it after that, then you Lost your special meal no matter what type it was. I tried for yrs to get them to set their computer to allow the Up w/o removing the special meal. I told them Id rather be in Biz or 1st and eat a coach special meal then not to beable to eat at all. To no avail. Today at least within the US its a moot point, no meals any longer.

Absolutely nothing, under any circumstances, can make non-kosher meat kosher.


Theoratically you can! You take the genes from the non-kosher meat, grow a new lab animal. Slaughter the cloned animal through a correct ritual.

:D

sorry for going OT for a moment please bear with me (OT= On Topic)

Just got back from the local Costco. Couldnt find the pkgs that the OP was referring to. There were tons of Commerical bakery products out of Brooklyn 10 min drive, that was Kosher but even Pas Yisroel and Halav Yisroel to boot (meaning Jewish Bread its different from simply Kosher bread and Jewish Milk).

In the frozen food section there were Empire kosher non-cooked 2 1/2 lbs chickhens, and some boxes of Hors d'oevures, also Pollyo 40 oz Ricotta cheese. Basically good thing I dont have to rely on this Costco in order to eat.

Of cause there was salmon of all types and cuts that is OK, and even the Kirkland brand had the OU on it.

I guess the pkg that the OP found is a local brand or sold only in the area he was at.

Also on long haul flights, special meals are often served first so you may lose out on sleep.

Huh? How come? On most long-haul flights I would welcome being served earlier because this would give me more time to sleep, not less, assuming the meal is toward the beginning of the flight.

If there's a breakfast, you shouldn't lose very much sleep time because of being served earlier - the time you saved on dinner should make up for it. Unless, of course, breakfast is the only meal on the flight, but I don't think I've ever seen that on overnight long-hauls.

Huh? How come? On most long-haul flights I would welcome being served earlier because this would give me more time to sleep, not less, assuming the meal is toward the beginning of the flight.

If there's a breakfast, you shouldn't lose very much sleep time because of being served earlier - the time you saved on dinner should make up for it. Unless, of course, breakfast is the only meal on the flight, but I don't think I've ever seen that on overnight long-hauls.

Before meals, after meals. Sorry for the confusion. On trans-pac flights a special meal does get me dinner a lot earlier. However, breakfast also. Maybe an hour ahead of everyone else.

Yes, I am lucky to be able to sleep like that on flights.

Huh? How come? On most long-haul flights I would welcome being served earlier because this would give me more time to sleep, not less, assuming the meal is toward the beginning of the flight.

That's true:

1. if you can sleep while there's more FA movement about the cabin;and
2. if having your tray uncollected for a longer period doesn't infringe upon your ability to sleep (without making a mess); and
3. if the lights don't bother you.

The proposed laws (at least the British one) would require that the animals be killed in a particular way.

This would not drive up costs for kosher/halal meat -- it would make the meat unkosher/non-halal.

Cost is not the question. Indeed, the current kosher/halal regulations make meat more expensive than ordinary meat. Religious Jews/Moslems would be forced to leave not because of economic reasons but because they would be unable to eat any meat killed in these countries.

I don't know if these laws are going to be passed or not, but I do think societal pressure will eventually force the Jewish and Muslim communities in Britain to adopt stunning prior to slaughter. It's clearly more humane and that fact alone is congruent with religious teachings on the treatment of animals, which is essentially a religious duty for an adherant of either faith.

Having seen the inside of a few slaughterhouses, I can vouch that it's never a pretty sight, regardless of how closely they follow religious requirements to not frighten the animal prior to slaughter.

I need to get one in Arabic. These are commercially available, but I've just had them written out for me when I arrive in a new language area. Yes, I do have them proof read by several people.

That's good, because if I wrote one out for you, you'd get into all sorts of trouble.

You also asked if Halal = No shellfish. If the packaged product you are eating bears a Halal certification of any kind, that product will not contain shellfish because all shellfish are considered scavangers or feed on waste. Some Muslim restaurateurs however may serve shrimp and prawns. These would not be considered Halal dishes in the strict sense.

sorry for going OT for a moment please bear with me (OT= On Topic)

Just got back from the local Costco. Couldnt find the pkgs that the OP was referring to. There were tons of Commerical bakery products out of Brooklyn 10 min drive, that was Kosher but even Pas Yisroel and Halav Yisroel to boot (meaning Jewish Bread its different from simply Kosher bread and Jewish Milk).

In the frozen food section there were Empire kosher non-cooked 2 1/2 lbs chickhens, and some boxes of Hors d'oevures, also Pollyo 40 oz Ricotta cheese. Basically good thing I dont have to rely on this Costco in order to eat.

Of cause there was salmon of all types and cuts that is OK, and even the Kirkland brand had the OU on it.

I guess the pkg that the OP found is a local brand or sold only in the area he was at.


I will note the brand and other details of the frozen chicken breasts I speak of the next time I visit Costco, then post that information here.

I hope this does not come off as an ignorant question, but being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I don't know the answer.

Do either methods (Halal and Kosher) specify the killing of the animal about to be eaten must be done in a humane, pain-free manner (or as pain-free as possible)?

I'll weigh in on this from the Judaism side. It's actually a rather hot topic in Jewish law nowadays, arising out of challenges to practices at one of the largest kosher slaughterhouses in the US in recent years.

Back in 2000, the Conservative movement's legal authority ruled that a method known as "shackling and hoisting" is not permitted under Jewish law because it is too cruel. http://www.grandin.com/ritual/conservative.jewish.law.html (As a side note for those who care, the 2 authors of this paper were on opposite sides of the recent homosexuality debate - proving that religion (not just politics) makes strange bedfellows.)

Now, a new commission of the Conservative movement of Judaism is exploring the possibility of establishing a certification that food and meat processors have met a set of standards that determine the social responsibility of kosher food producers, particularly in the area of workers’ rights. See http://www.uscj.org/Conservative_Movemen7198.html

Unfortunately, the views of the Conservative movement on matters relating to kosher standards are mostly an afterthought in the US, as the Orthodox religious establishment don't respect the opinions of Conservative rabbis and thus will actively block most food producers from participating in this (IMHO).

That's good, because if I wrote one out for you, you'd get into all sorts of trouble.

You also asked if Halal = No shellfish. If the packaged product you are eating bears a Halal certification of any kind, that product will not contain shellfish because all shellfish are considered scavangers or feed on waste. Some Muslim restaurateurs however may serve shrimp and prawns. These would not be considered Halal dishes in the strict sense.

I need to do some GOOGLE work to learn the marks for Halal on packaging. I know several people who request Halal or Kosher meals on flights because they feel they are safer to eat. Is there an agreement on this? (safer as in cleaner food.)

Here is a link to purchasing allergy alert food cards. You first choose your allergy and then choose the language(s) you want in translations. http://www.dietarycard.com/

I need to do some GOOGLE work to learn the marks for Halal on packaging.

Here's a start:

http://www.msstate.edu/org/fsfa/images/Halal%20Logo-1.jpg

That bit of Arabic script means "Halal" - I find it fairly easy to recognize once you know what it looks like. It's included on all variations of packaging marks, no matter what Islamic authority awarded the certification.

Here's a start:

http://www.msstate.edu/org/fsfa/images/Halal%20Logo-1.jpg

That bit of Arabic script means "Halal" - I find it fairly easy to recognize once you know what it looks like. It's included on all variations of packaging marks, no matter what Islamic authority awarded the certification.

I printed it out.

In the U.K., food products carrying Halal and Vegetarian labels are common in most grocery stores. I can walk into a Sainsbury's, Tesco's or Waitrose and find what I need labeled Halal.

However, in the U.S., you can scour an entire grocery store and not find a single product labeled Halal. OTOH, Kosher food can be found in almost every mainstream grocery store. You will have to visit ethnic Arabian, Persian, Pakistani and Indian grocery stores to find american food products like Potato Crisps, Sandwich spreads, Jelly (Jello in the U.S.), Marshmallows, Jams, Yogurt, breads, cheese, TV Dinners, Hotdogs, Chicken Nuggets, Burgers, Pizza's, etc that are labeled Halal.

Is there a central authority that determines what is haram? Could it be local custom?

Former co-workers (Egyptian) and former employees (Nigerian) regularly eat shrimp and lobster. All of them tell me in no uncertain terms that their food is halal. Maybe the interpretation is location dependent.

Is there a central authority that determines what is haram? Could it be local custom?

Former co-workers (Egyptian) and former employees (Nigerian) regularly eat shrimp and lobster. All of them tell me in no uncertain terms that their food is halal. Maybe the interpretation is location dependent.

Sunni muslims generally have no central authority and so it's more local/family custom/tradition than anything.

Shia muslims more routinely have central authorities but that doesn't make it any more harmonized internationally when it comes to determinations of halal and haram foodstuffs. For example, there are some fish that Persian shias will eat but that Bahraini shias think are not halal.

Just my .02$
Halal means permissible or lawful and zabihah Halal ( Islamically slaughtered permissible meat)
Though the meat may be labeled Halal- some communities makes sure that the origin of the livestock comes from halal cattle, meaning free of animal by-products as opposed to factory-farmed cattle, since such products may contain pork blood or other haram scrap meat. Thus the butcher or the meat market will get their supply of grass-fed beef, lamb or goat from distributors/slaughterhouses who in turn source their meat from ranches or farms that don't feed their livestock animal-byproducts. Same goes for organic or free-ranged chickens.

Just my .02$
Halal means permissible or lawful and zabihah Halal ( Islamically slaughtered permissible meat)
Though the meat may be labeled Halal- some communities makes sure that the origin of the livestock comes from halal cattle, meaning free of animal by-products as opposed to factory-farmed cattle, since such products may contain pork blood or other haram scrap meat. Thus the butcher or the meat market will get their supply of grass-fed beef, lamb or goat from distributors/slaughterhouses who in turn source their meat from ranches or farms that don't feed their livestock animal-byproducts. Same goes for organic or free-ranged chickens.

This is true. That's why the only halal eggs are those produced by hens fed with vegetarian diets (also available at Costco:) ) I always thought Kosher cattle were also fed only vegetarian feed products.

That's why the only halal eggs are those produced by hens fed with vegetarian diets (also available at Costco:) )
I wouldn't go that far :D :D
Little anecdote: My sister had to spend 1 month in Shanghai last summer and she had a hard time getting proper food since she is a vegetarian. The fried veggies or the fish soups are cooked in animal fat in lieu of oil.

what you said is true, but if Im wrong I Know the OP will Gladly correct me, Someone who keeps Kosher will not eat Halal. However someone who eats Halal has no problem eating Kosher.

For someone who eats Halal, Kosher is not always acceptable. This is because Kosher meals may be cooked with alcohol. Muslim air travellers should be particularly careful when booking a Kosher meal for their flights. This advice was given to me by an Air India crew member.

For someone who eats Halal, Kosher is not always acceptable. This is because Kosher meals may be cooked with alcohol. Muslim air travellers should be particularly careful when booking a Kosher meal for their flights. This advice was given to me by an Air India crew member.

The alcohol evaporates during cooking ;)

As evidenced by some of the posts above, I suppose it's all a matter of what the individual is comfortable with. Me, I don't mind eating food cooked with alcohol but would never drink the stuff. Then again I stay away from food that contains pork products (gelatin, marshmallows, etc) but have no problem eating a non-kosher/non-halal grilled chicken breast. I just think it's wrong to mislead people into thinking something is kosher/halal when it isn't.

The alcohol evaporates during cooking ;)

As evidenced by some of the posts above, I suppose it's all a matter of what the individual is comfortable with. Me, I don't mind eating food cooked with alcohol but would never drink the stuff. Then again I stay away from food that contains pork products (gelatin, marshmallows, etc) but have no problem eating a non-kosher/non-halal grilled chicken breast. I just think it's wrong to mislead people into thinking something is kosher/halal when it isn't.

Yes, the alcohol "evaporates" during cooking. Also, there are foods that break down and yield some alcohol molecules, but no one is going around claiming that such results makes the consumption of the original foodstuff non-halal consumption. If I am not mistaken, I understand that the Islamic prohibition against alcohol is based on avoiding judgment-altering intoxication/inebriation. But if something cannot disrupt the judgment/thinking process, then it's use doesn't contradict religious doctrine or traditional dogma regarding alcohol. This is to say the following: given a chicken well cooked in some wine sauce is not going to get even a mouse drunk, its consumption therefore would not generally contradict teachings based on religious doctrine and traditional dogma.

For someone who eats Halal, Kosher is not always acceptable. This is because Kosher meals may be cooked with alcohol. Muslim air travellers should be particularly careful when booking a Kosher meal for their flights. This advice was given to me by an Air India crew member.

Can someone tell any time they ran across wine or any alcholic beverage being used for an On Flight Meal? at least a kosher one.

Even before 9/11 I dont recall being served one and after 9/11 it would wipe out any Profit for the company making the meals.

Granted in some Upscale Kosher restaurants Wine might be used but I dont recall every seeing among the Ingredients for the meals served in-flight.

when I have flown in 1st I have gotten a small bottle or 2 of Kosher Wine served with the meal but the meal wasnt cooked in it.

Can someone tell any time they ran across wine or any alcholic beverage being used for an On Flight Meal? at least a kosher one.

Even before 9/11 I dont recall being served one and after 9/11 it would wipe out any Profit for the company making the meals.

Granted in some Upscale Kosher restaurants Wine might be used but I dont recall every seeing among the Ingredients for the meals served in-flight.

when I have flown in 1st I have gotten a small bottle or 2 of Kosher Wine served with the meal but the meal wasnt cooked in it.

BTW, what are the requirements for a wine to be considered kosher?

Can someone tell any time they ran across wine or any alcholic beverage being used for an On Flight Meal? at least a kosher one.

Even before 9/11 I dont recall being served one and after 9/11 it would wipe out any Profit for the company making the meals.

Granted in some Upscale Kosher restaurants Wine might be used but I dont recall every seeing among the Ingredients for the meals served in-flight.

It wouldn't wipe out any profit for the company making the meals if used.

When was the last time that all the ingredients for the in-flight meal service were made clear? I've never been provided the ingredients used to make the bread that comes with a meal.

BTW, what are the requirements for a wine to be considered kosher?

In most people's opinion, most wines made and used for cooking pass as long as it has an official "seal of approval" kind of thing.

In most people's opinion, most wines made and used for cooking pass as long as it has an official "seal of approval" kind of thing.
It sounds like the poster wants to know how one gets that official seal of approval on a bottle of wine vs one that doesn't have one. The key thing is oversight or kashruth - is there a rabbinical society (assn?) there to look over the process being followed in the creation of the product, are all ingredients used kosher, is any outside food being kept away from the processing line and are proper cleaning practices in place. That is the type of review one must pass to produce a kosher product with all kosher ingredients.

There are a few halachot (laws) that deal with non-Jews touching the wine during the production process. When I visited a winery in Israel a long time ago, I remember that non-Jews were not even allowed to handle the grapes. Most kosher wine is mevushal (cooked) which means that a non-Jew can handle it. Non-mevushal wine cannot be handled by a non-Jew once opened. There is also an issue with non-Jews pouring wine. Most of this stems from the fact that wine was used in many idol-worshiping ceremonies, and was meant to prevent that happening with wine that Jews might drink.

In most people's opinion, most wines made and used for cooking pass as long as it has an official "seal of approval" kind of thing.

If someone eats only Kosher then if the wine used does not have a Symbol of a recognized Kosher Authority, then it is not considered Kosher.

point, theres a Winery in Israel that prior to 2003 didnt have any Kosher Authority overseeing them and the Wine was and is not considered Kosher. starting with 2003 they did have such Authority and the Wine produced since 2003 is considered Kosher, but any bottles prior to 2003 is still not considered Kosher.

The Grapes themselves are not Kosher or Kosher , bur prior to 2003 this winery worked on Saturdays among other things that didnt allow for the Kosher stamp to be placed on their wine.

Unlike alot of Winery tasting tours, if one goes on one in Israel they will find that the wine will be poured for them rather being allowed to pour it for themselves as by many wineries around the world. Sometimes they do put the bottles on the bar but once that tour leaves any uncomsumed wine is spilled out.

There are a few halachot (laws) that deal with non-Jews touching the wine during the production proces.

Please note that these laws apply not only to non-Jews, but also to non-observant Jews.

what you said is true, but if Im wrong I Know the OP will Gladly correct me, Someone who keeps Kosher will not eat Halal. However someone who eats Halal has no problem eating Kosher.

For someone who eats Halal, Kosher is not always acceptable. This is because Kosher meals may be cooked with alcohol. Muslim air travellers should be particularly careful when booking a Kosher meal for their flights. This advice was given to me by an Air India crew member.

I've also been under the impression that Jello is kosher but not halal. The collagen in jello is derived at least in part from pig parts. Since it is so highly processed into its chemical constituents (no longer recongizably animal), it receives kosher certification; however, since it may have its origin in pig parts, it is not halal.

Is this correct?

I've also been under the impression that Jello is kosher but not halal. The collagen in jello is derived at least in part from pig parts. Since it is so highly processed into its chemical constituents (no longer recongizably animal), it receives kosher certification; however, since it may have its origin in pig parts, it is not halal.

Is this correct?

Jell-O is not halal, or at least used to not be halal, because it contained prohibited gelatin. Same for Skittles candy.

Here's a site that had an interesting breakdown: http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Field/7207/halal.htm