MilesBuzz! - M I L E S P Y

"Here's an idea that we recently ran across. A new Web site allows members of
frequent flyer programs to earn unlimited miles into their frequent flyer
accounts for only about 1.5 cents per mile. If you've ever wanted to top off
your account for an award you are saving for, you might skip the airline and
other Web sites and go straight here (buying miles from the airlines
themselves is about 3 cents per mile). In all of 2001, there is not a better
offer for this. So, if you are planning any award redemption in the New
Year, want to use your miles for other awards (upgrades) or want a way to
fill out your spouses or kids account so they can fly free with you next
time, then join the others who are doing their Christmas shopping at
MileSpy.com ."

http://www.milespy.com

Doc,

Instead of www.milespy.com (http://www.milespy.com)

It should be

www.PleaseDontTry.com (http://www.PleaseDontTry.com)

This has got to be one of the most worthless ideas and creepy looking websites I have seen in a while. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by capetown (edited 12-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by capetown (edited 12-20-2001).]

"top off" is a little mis-leading.

The minimum amount of miles you can buy is 100k. So, minimum purchase is $1,500.

C'mon, be a sport, capetown, what have you got to loose? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

p.s. They spelled Randy Petersen's name correctly, so they've got to be legit.

[This message has been edited by snake (edited 12-20-2001).]

Hmmmm.... Those of us who already have hundreds of thousands of frequent flyer miles and are worried that airline bankruptcy could make them worthless, don't find this offer very appealing. At the moment, I need another 100,000 miles -- minimum purchase -- like a hole in the head. (That doesn't mean that I'm not accumulating more miles by flying and buying; but I have to fly and buy things anyway.)

Kathy

I'd like to hear what Randy says.

If you look at the "About Us" you'll see two folks listed, one of who is obviously a FlyerTalker (since his handle is his name), and the other is also a Flyertalker that I know of.

They are obviously "arbitraging" the Radisson/Valumags promo since you can buy miles from that at .76 cents/mile (when you use a 15% off coupon) and they're selling them for 1.5 cents/mile, so they're making $744.44 on a 100,000 mile transaction. Of course there's overhead, credit card transaction costs, etc, but they should still be clearing a nice chunk of change from each transaction.

Will this work with Aeroplan ?

For $3,000 USD ($4,500 CDN) I could get 200,000 miles.....which equals roughly 5 round trips to Rio.....a trip that usually costs me $1,500 CDN.

This is the profile for that operator.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forumcgi/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=MatthewClement

You are absolutely correct! This guy saw the messages on Flyertalk. Then set up a website quickly 4 days ago, on Dec 16. Then he turned around and try to make a profit from the same group of consumers. He is trying to make some extra$ from people's ignorance.

People, read the messages. Do-it-yourself and save big.

Reference (please see this link for full details):
http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=milespy.com&SearchType=do& STRING2.x=10&STRING2.y=3 (http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=milespy.com&SearchType=do&STRING2.x=10&STRING2.y=3)


Domain Name.......... milespy.com
Creation Date........ 2001-12-16
Registration Date.... 2001-12-16
Expiry Date.......... 2003-12-16
Organisation Name.... Matthew Clement

The previous information has been obtained either directly from the
registrant or a registrar of the domain name other than Network Solutions.
Network Solutions, therefore, does not guarantee its accuracy or
completeness.


[This message has been edited by MoreMiles (edited 12-21-2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
If you look at the "About Us" you'll see two folks listed, one of who is obviously a FlyerTalker (since his handle is his name), and the other is also a Flyertalker that I know of.

They are obviously "arbitraging" the Radisson/Valumags promo since you can buy miles from that at .76 cents/mile (when you use a 15% off coupon) and they're selling them for 1.5 cents/mile, so they're making $744.44 on a 100,000 mile transaction. Of course there's overhead, credit card transaction costs, etc, but they should still be clearing a nice chunk of change from each transaction.</font>

The only overhead will be
1. domain registration $35
2. credit processing fee without a merchant account (eg, ccnow.com) 9%
Both can be set up within hours and become operational.

Not to mention that magazines can also be sold to local bookstore or on eBay for a reduced price. So the profit margin is huge.

Hello, I rather do it myself. It only takes a couple of hours to get 100,000 mile. What a big ripoff!!!!

This doesn't feel right. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

She's a witch!

Come on people! Do you really think this is for the savvy mileage collector?!?!

Get it together!

Dorian

For those of you who don't understand what I'm saying....this is for everyone out there who isn't a regular on FT.

Geez.

For those of you who don't understand what I'm saying....this is for everyone out there who isn't a regular on FT.

Geez.

How does Valumags give out so many miles? Are they going to be bankrupt before the weekend?

Who's going to start the 1.4 cents per mile version???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 8-Minute Abs?

Ted Stroehmann: Yeah, sure, 8-Minute Abs. Yeah, the excercise video.

Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 7... Minute... Abs.

Ted Stroehmann: Right. Yes. OK, alright. I see where you're going.

Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a video store, you see 8-Minute Abs sittin' there, there's 7-Minute Abs right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man?

Ted Stroehmann: I would go for the 7.

Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk.

Ted Stroehmann: You guarantee it? That's -- how do you do that?

Hitchhiker: If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from "A" to "B".

Ted Stroehmann: That's right. That's -- that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?

[Hitchhiker convulses]

Hitchhiker: No! No, no, not 6! I said 7. Nobody's comin' up with 6. Who works out in 6 minutes? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel.

Ted Stroehmann: That -- good point.

Hitchhiker: 7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 doors. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

Ted Stroehmann: Why?

Hitchhiker: 'Cause you're ****in' fired!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Carioca Canuck:
I'd like to hear what Randy says.</font>

---

FWIW, this info I posted was obtained from the current issue of MilesLink, a Webflyer publication! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

So I'm fairly sure Randy thinks it's okay, at the very least! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It seems that it IS possibly/maifestly the best choice for a BULK buy as well.

Remember the old/current standard "whats a mile worth?"

FWIW, about 0.02, or whatever you want it to be worth to you specifically in each of ones independent and eclectic circumstances!

So, while not for everyone, it is seemingly not a bad deal at all, IMHO! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And who really cares if the site ain't so pretty? Does that effect the product? Or the price? I don't think so!

Just my 0.02! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Have a great holiday everyone! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I've got mixed feelings about wading in on this thread. On one hand, I don't want to add fuel to the fire. On the other hand, I'd like to explain my position and hopefully allay some of your fears about FTers profiteering from information on FT.

When I was initially approached about this opportunity, I had to think long and hard about whether it was a worthwhile use of my time and energy. I have to admit, I was very reluctant to market the information that I had gained on Flyertalk. It seemed to go against the community spirit that exists on this board.

I rationalised my decision in several ways:

I decided that this information was readily available and published in several places on Flyertalk. Both the MilesBuzz board and the Radisson board have extensive coverage of this promotion. We weren't keeping this knowledge from the FT community and exploiting it for personal gain. FT wasn't our target audience. A vast majority of Webflyer subscribers to not read FT regularly, if at all. Full details of how this program works were published in last week's edition of WebFlyer. Those who wanted to undertake the work involved themselves had an opportunity. There are people out there who don't want to invest the effort/research or don't want to risk "getting it wrong" and are happy to pay a premium for the service. At 1.5 cents per mile, the deal still represents excellent value. Not as excellent as if you did it yourself, but it represents a lot less work.


We discussed this with Randy before going forward with it -- both from an ethical and legal standpoint. He concluded that our decision to go ahead was the right one.

I suspect those of you who think we're making enormous profits haven't examined our true cost base. Much more than $35 to register a website, the costs we must cover are:

Travel to coordinate the deal Significant investment of time (to prepare the website, identify worthy causes prepared to take large volumes of magazines and to administer the deal), for which we should be compensated. Despite how "rough and ready" the website looks, it's a pretty robust, fully-secure website. It's not a few web pages which were quickly slapped together. Financial risk Credit card fees Tax


When all this is taken into account, the profit margin isn't as big as it appears. Remember, we only have an 11-day window to recover all of the costs we've incurred to set this thing up.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">MoreMiles wrote:
Then he turned around and try to make a profit from the same group of consumers. He is trying to make some extra$ from people's ignorance.</font>
I don't think this is quite fair. We're offering this deal to an audience who might never have noticed it before. We're covering our costs to provide the administrative service to set everything up. We're not ripping off the customer -- they're still getting a great deal. And probably a much better deal than if they never contacted us.

So while I'm sorry this deal has obviously rubbed some people the wrong way, I stand behind what we've done. We're offering an added-value service -- whether you think the value-added service is worth the price is another question. As educated consumers, you've concluded you can do it more cheaply yourself. Good for you.

On the face of it, when I pay $90 per hour to get my car fixed, I'm getting ripped off. I could certainly do it more cheaply myself. But I'm prepared to pay the premium because 1) I minimise my risk; 2) the mechanic has knowledge which, though I could acquire, I've chosen not to (because of time constraints, ability, whatever); and 3)there's some recourse if it all goes wrong. The value you place on these three elements determines whether this is a good deal for you or not.

For most FTers, working this deal is probably not too complicated or involved. By all means, do it yourself. You'll get a fantastic deal.

But if you're not an FTer, or are not comfortable doing this yourself, 1.5 cents per mile is still a great deal.

Finally, I don't feel like I'm a lurker who is stealing things off FT without giving anything in return. I hope I've contributed valuable tips to the board over time; I run the mileagerunner.com website and the Unofficial United Guide for FTers out of my own pocket with no personal benefit as my contribution to this community.

Doubtless some of you will disagree, but I've at least stated my case.

------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit (http://www.mileagerunner.com) and Unofficial United Airlines Guide (http://www.mileagerunner.com/content/flying/airlines/united/index.htm)


[This message has been edited by MatthewClement (edited 12-21-2001).]

I'd say that you should be commended for your enterprising nature. It is, afterall, up to the individual whether or not they buy from you or not, at least by putting up your site (which isn't bad at all given how quickly it was done) you have given them more choice and as a consumer who can complain about that?

There are plenty of people who, unlike the more savvy FT'ers, can't get their minds around buying thousands of dollars of magazines or who just don't know about the deal. Your site is perfect for them and I have sent the link to a few people who just didn't think that the magazine thing was worth their time (and they think I am nuts for buy $5k worth of mag's, Ha! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ).

So well done and Happy holidays, I hope you get lots of orders.

As Matthew's partner in crime (!), he reflects my sentiments about the decisionmaking and methodology behind Milespy.com.

On a practical level, it took me hours to figure out the registration audit trail of this promotion because of unclear and confusing links and language that infest the Radisson/GoldRewards/GoldPoints/ValueMags sites. I am amazed at the precision required (and the lack of clarity to get that precision!!) to make sure that registration is done correctly.

As always, there is nothing like the lively debate that FTers are so adept at generating.
I am hopeful that Matthew and my posts will at least offer a better FRAME for the debate.

Thanks for hearing us out.

Matthew,
I think you've stated your case very clearly and persuasively. While I wouldn't take advantage of your service myself I can see how it would be useful for other people.
Good luck to you.

Although FT members may not be your target audience, there is still a cost to FT. By attempting to profit from information found and developed here, you simply hastened the closing of the loophole. It's the age-old argument, but if everyone took your lead and tried to profit from the information here on FT, then FT would lose a lot of its utility. It violates the spirit of the board and community.

What loophole? It's clearly stated the offer ends 31Dec. No one's stopping you from going and doing the thing yourself too. It's like any other knowledge shared on FT. Knowledge leads to opprotunities, but in life, opportunities are always limited in duration. Once they're gone, too late. It's all a matter of taking advantage of them.

FewMiles..

------------------
.................[ FlyerTalkers' Resources on the Web (http://www.fewmiles.net)]
[ Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage (http://www.fewmiles.net/AA)] [ Unofficial oneworld Info Desk (http://www.fewmiles.net/oneworld)]

Well, after reading their website, and knowing Steve Belkin as I do, I'd have to trust em.

Sounds like a another winning formula.

Good luck.

Dan

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
By attempting to profit from information found and developed here, you simply hastened the closing of the loophole. It's the age-old argument, but if everyone took your lead and tried to profit from the information here on FT, then FT would lose a lot of its utility. It violates the spirit of the board and community.</font>

Three issues here, I think:

First, the best way to avoid a "loophole" being closed would be to revert to the idea of a "private list". Most people seem to agree that this would be bad thing for the FT community. Information here should be shared freely, even if it means a loophole will be closed.

Second, we are not selling this idea at the expense of FT. We haven't hidden it away or kept it to ourselves. It's been out in the open for some time now. As I've said before, we're bringing this to a new audience.

Finally, this strategy doesn't rely upon loopholes. We aren't exploiting some detail in the rules that someone overlooked. We're following every rule of all of the involved programs, both in spirit and in letter. Valuemags put this program in place to drive sales -- they've obviously made a decision that 450 points/mile is a profitable ratio for them. Their strategy has been fantastically successful. We're contributing to their success.

If this is costing Valuemags money, then the failure in the system lies with them. As far as I can tell, we've adopted exactly the behaviour that they want us to -- we're buying lots of magazines. More than they could have ever imagined! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit (http://www.mileagerunner.com) and Unofficial United Airlines Guide (http://www.mileagerunner.com/content/flying/airlines/united/index.htm)

$750 of magazines is what, about 20 or so subscriptions? What do you guys plan on doing with all of those magazine subscriptions?

d

Unlike some accusations on this board, we aren't reselling them.

All the magazines are being donated to worthy causes -- schools, libraries, hospitals, retirement homes etc...

I can tell you this much -- I ordered $10K worth of magazines last night. Finding worthy causes willing to accept donated subscriptions is pretty time consuming. We're talking 500+ subscriptions here...


------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit (http://www.mileagerunner.com) and Unofficial United Airlines Guide (http://www.mileagerunner.com/content/flying/airlines/united/index.htm)

Just some words of support for Matthew & Steve.
(I don't have any affiliation with these guys at all by the way)
However, I believe that what they're doing is a valuable service for a portion of the travelling community. May not be for everyone, but hey, no-one's forcing you to buy from them.
Note that this promo seems to be only valid for US residents, so Milespy are providing a great service to those of us who don't have a US address available etc.
Again - go for it guys and good luck !!

Go MatthewClement and Beaubo! When this is all over, would you be willing to share with us the volume of business you generated? I'm not asking for financials, just interested to hear how many people ended up using your service. Thanks.

I think you guys are very enterprising.

This type of promotion makes it easy for others to be Pudding Guy without having to do all the work. I don't see anything wrong with it.

I also see nothing wrong with what they're doing. Offering a good product at a good price, regardless of the internal markup, isn't wrong. It's capitalism. The idea won't work if there isn't value for the consumer.

Thank you MatthewClement for your comprehensive explanation which, IMHO, clears the air about this enterprise.

Since I never read the Radisson board and rarely look at S.P.A.M., I wasn't aware of the ValueMags promo until this thread. But after further examination, I'm now a Gold Rewards member, have $200 of new or renewed subscriptions to magazines I already read, took advantage of the ebates discount, and will be able to add 20K+ of AA miles at $0.008 per mile--a pretty good deal all around.

For those of us used to going to great lengths with convoluted schemes for miles and points (the AAdvantage 20/20 promo comes to mind), this particular promo is an easy one to DIY. For the vast majority, though, what these two FTers have set up is the more likely answer, and I kind of admire their enterprise in setting it up...

It's good spirited!

Although I won't be taking this advantage...i wish both of you good luck.

One thing that is overlooked is that by exploiting these kinds of deals you are increasing the likelyhood that Radisson would not offer such deals in the future and/or impose other restrictions like capping the number of points that could be transferred in a year to the airlines. So I think that this hurts us FTers in the long term.

Latin Pass also capped the number of miles that one could transfer to Marriott rewards because there were simply too many Latin Pass million milers.

Matthew,

Just curious, but how would travel be needed to 'coordinate' this effort? That seems to be reaching a bit (not that we don't all need little reason to travel). Seems everything at both ends of this deal is net based.

Have you considered how you will handle your exposure should, for some reason, the points not be delivered by valuemags as promised? Just curious, not being accusatory.

Iam not going to discuss whether this operation is ethical or in good spirit or not. While i do admire the ingenuity of the people who put together this operation, just an observation i wish to make is that Radisson or valuemags possibly intended this promo for individuals and not for businesses to take advantage of. It cannot be conclusively said that either goldpoints or valuemags is making money on this promo. This could well have been intended as a loss leader for them in order to drive traffic to their website. If indeed this is the case, goldpoints could in the future stop offering these great promotions or as PG has pointed out, impose restrictions/caps on them. There are certainly precedents for this kind of thing happening. This could ruin a good shopping portal for all of us FTers in the long run.

[This message has been edited by rkjflyer1 (edited 12-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by rkjflyer1 (edited 12-21-2001).]

Hello, so you guys are using the knowledge gained here on flyertalk to rip innocent people off instead of teaching them?? How pathetic!!

Randy has chimed in here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000626.html

This is no different than the FTers who took advantage of $0 Rates from Hilton or $27 flights to Paris on United.

Do not blame Steve and Matthew for taking advantage of a situation that was presented to them. They are not taking advantage of a MISTAKE, but the rules as set forth by those businesses.

While I would not use the service, I do believe there is a population that would find this very useful because it takes out all the work.

Also, MoreMiles can you edit your post to remove the telephone numbers? Not sure we should be posting personal information like that.

Good luck, Steve and Matthew.... BTW... I can be charitable and accept some magazine subscriptions... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

William

Edited to correct MoreMiles name.

[This message has been edited by wharvey (edited 12-21-2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PG:
[B]One thing that is overlooked is that by exploiting these kinds of deals you are increasing the likelyhood that Radisson would not offer such deals in the future and/or impose other restrictions like capping the number of points that could be transferred in a year to the airlines. So I think that this hurts us FTers in the long term.

PG..........It's possible that these programs are taking advantage of Flyertalk!

Afterall, they are well aware of OUR potential! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Note to Pointsguy. Welcome to flyertalk; and, don't be so fast to judge.

Dan

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Also, FewMiles can you edit your post to remove the telephone numbers? Not sure we should be posting personal information like that.</font>

Wharvey, I think you mean MoreMiles.

So....is anyone going to tell me if this will work for Aeroplan ?

Matthew ???

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Carioca Canuck:
So....is anyone going to tell me if this will work for Aeroplan ?

Matthew ???</font>

Check the Radisson site to find out.

hey

yes, it works on AC

but why would you go through them?

just do it yourself and save!

Time.....that's the problem right now.

I'll look at the Radisson site first I guess.

Carioca Canuck, if you're like most FTers, you're more than capable of working this "arbitrage" strategy. My rule of thumb is that it takes an hour per $2K to place your order.

The Valuemags deal is still running as of today. There are rumours it will end soon, so get your order in now.

Here's the (brief) strategy... more details on the Radisson forum:

1. Register on www.radisson.com (http://www.radisson.com) for a Gold Rewards Account
2. Enrol your Gold Rewards Account on www.goldpoints.com (http://www.goldpoints.com)
3. Purchase your magazines via the Gold Points link to Valuemags.
4. Transfer your Gold Rewards points to your selected airline at a 4:1 ratio. Here (http://www.mileagerunner.com/goldrush/faq.htm) are the participating airlines.

Guys, this is a great deal (with or without MileSpy). Grasp the big picture -- buy as many miles as you can afford!




------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit (http://www.mileagerunner.com) and Unofficial United Airlines Guide (http://www.mileagerunner.com/content/flying/airlines/united/index.htm)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wharvey:

Also, MoreMiles can you edit your post to remove the telephone numbers? Not sure we should be posting personal information like that.</font>

Sure... but this is public information, available on whois database.

I will edit it.

Carioca Canuck asked:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">So....is anyone going to tell me if this will work for Aeroplan ?</font>

fireflyreaction responded:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">hey

yes, it works on AC

but why would you go through them?

just do it yourself and save!</font>

And Carioca Canuck then stated:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Time.....that's the problem right now.</font>

This seems like a very good example of the service MatthewClement and beaubo are providing.

Happy holidays everyone.

God bless your business spirit.

As soon as you start selling status miles without breaking any program rules please let me know!!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kokonutz:
God bless your business spirit.

As soon as you start selling status miles without breaking any program rules please let me know!!!!</font>

koko - there is an American express card which sells status. But careful what you wish for - you don't want a planeful of passengers all with 1K status do you?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kokonutz:
God bless your business spirit.

As soon as you start selling status miles without breaking any program rules please let me know!!!!</font>

Wouldn't you get some sort of status on AA (and I'm thinking one other airline as well) if you got one million or two million bonus miles on them, without even ever having to fly? Seems like there's another thread or two on this subject somewhere.

Would it be possible to buy that many miles on this program (either Milespy or the original promotion on which it's based)?

Not contemplating doing this myself, but some people might be! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Kathy

AA offer lifetime GLD status at 1 million miles, lifetime PLT status at 2 million miles. And yes, you can do it without setting foot on a plane.

And yes, people are doing it.

If you're happy with middle tier status, $18K to gain 2 million miles and lifetime status strikes me as an excellent deal. It's cheaper than running for miles every year.


------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit (http://www.mileagerunner.com) and Unofficial United Airlines Guide (http://www.mileagerunner.com/content/flying/airlines/united/index.htm)

American Airlines? Blech!

PG: Good point....nevermind...

Watch out now. Valumags just switched to 150 points/$1

Milespy is now selling miles that cost 2.7 cents for 1.5 cents http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Flip

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flipside:
Watch out now. Valumags just switched to 150 points/$1

Milespy is now selling miles that cost 2.7 cents for 1.5 cents http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Flip</font>

Pretty interesting. Lets see how quickly milespy takes back their offer, which as of now states on the web site is good until Dec 29.

I may or may not support what they did, but I am sorry they will have to pony up today's orders at loss (or until they remove the site), but there was also an ebay sale (for charity) that did not close until this evening that also promised to tell how to get miles based on the higher Goldpoints promo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1313896392

People should not make promises unless EVERYTHING is in their control. At least MileSpy did know what the risks were goin into it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fscher:
I may or may not support what they did, but I am sorry they will have to pony up today's orders at loss (or until they remove the site), but there was also an ebay sale (for charity) that did not close until this evening that also promised to tell how to get miles based on the higher Goldpoints promo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1313896392

People should not make promises unless EVERYTHING is in their control. At least MileSpy did know what the risks were goin into it.</font>

looks like that guy is gonna get blasted on feedback!

and milespy is still selling miles "at a loss."

I wonder if people will take "take advantage" of milespy's NOW generous offer they way milespy took "advantage" of the information here. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Flip

[This message has been edited by flipside (edited 12-26-2001).]

flipside-

I welcome your difference of opinion with respect to Milespy. I am hopeful that such healthy debates do not cross over into sentiments of ill will.

While our server is UK based and unable to change the website on demand, no orders were processed at the 150 pt. rate and all orders processed before 415pm were indeed at the 450 rate, confirmed by both VM and GPs.

Orders received after 4:15p will be advised of the unexpected program changes and offered an alternative. The site will NOT shut down, we'll just tinker with the business model and price point. I suspect that at approx. 2 cents per mile, our offer will remain quite compelling to most.

FYI- a majority of folks who signed up already knew about GR/GP/VM, but felt comfortable with our mastery of navigating the process.

flipside-

I welcome your difference of opinion with respect to Milespy. I am hopeful that such healthy debates do not cross over into sentiments of ill will.

While our server is UK based and unable to change the website on demand, no orders were processed at the 150 pt. rate and all orders processed before 415pm were indeed at the 450 rate, confirmed by both VM and GPs.

Orders received after 4:15p will be advised of the unexpected program changes and offered an alternative. The site will NOT shut down, we'll just tinker with the business model and price point. I suspect that at approx. 2 cents per mile, our offer will remain quite compelling to most.

FYI- a majority of folks who signed up already knew about GR/GP/VM, but felt comfortable with our mastery of navigating the process.

That was tounge in cheek. Hard to convey on a message board.

No ill will at all http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Flip

Business spirit or not, the whole thing does seem rather lame to me.

The description of the process on the web site is a bit off, especially the claim that:

"First and foremost, you can pay with a credit card. By using a credit card, you eliminate any risk."

There are invariably limits placed on cardholders for disputing charges, especially a time restriction which is nicely avoided by asking for a 12-week waiting time for miles to post.

I sure hope you're giving Randy a cut of the profit seeing how many times you've quoted him and used his reputation to further your cause.

Good luck, in any case.

Sebastien

The fact that the 450 pt/dollar offer was pulled early should put to rest speculations about how lucrative this was for Goldpoints. Someone had said earlier that Goldpoints was making a lot of money on the deal and that his guess was that they're overcome with joy over MileSpy. The move by Goldpoints to cut down the number of points clearly shows otherwise.

I don't know if this deal was pulled early early because too many people jumped in, or because of MileSpy.

But the fact that MileSpy will continue with other options means that they'll likely exploit other Goldpoints deals. Till those deals are terminated, that is.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 12-26-2001).]

I suspect Steve and Matthew will be in the market for a few freezers to store all those steaks they'll be ordering from Hickory Farms. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Just finding the non-United boards - more power to these guys, I say!

Anyhow, I checked out Goldpoints.com and it seems possible to still get &gt; 450/$ w/out too much hassle.

Hickory Farms gives you 225 points/dollar and has $100 gift certs. If you can resell that for just $50, there's your 450 pts/dollar. Not sure how big the market is for those things, but if you could get $90 for them, you're talking 2250 points/dollar - 500+FF miles/dollar - not bad! I can just imagine the eBay price wars!

All I need to do is find a lot of people who love FF miles and sausage and I'll be able to crush milespy! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by sfojfk1k:
Hickory Farms ... has $100 gift certs.</font>

Not currently available.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kokonutz:
American Airlines? Blech!

...</font>


Just because AA doesn't allow sheep is no excuse to bad mouth them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">looks like that guy is gonna get blasted on feedback!</font>

Not likely, considering there were 0 bids.

andrew

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by drtravels:

Just because AA doesn't allow sheep is no excuse to bad mouth them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

Sorry, AA does allow sheep. I flew with Daisy from FLL to ORD during 10/2000. Daisy sat on the armrest between me and my then partner.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
The fact that the 450 pt/dollar offer was pulled early should put to rest speculations about how lucrative this was for Goldpoints. Someone had said earlier that Goldpoints was making a lot of money on the deal and that his guess was that they're overcome with joy over MileSpy.</font>

Having spoken to the folks at Valuemags, they were indeed making good money on the deal, and were anxious to work with us and continue this as long as possible.

Goldpoints pulled the deal.

I don't know if the Milespy folks will make any money - but it seems a little ridiculous to accuse them of ripping people off.

I don't see them charging $5.00 for a glass of water during a drought - they are offering something at a fair price that happens to be more than what they paid.

I think we call that a business. The only businesses I know of that sell things for below what they paid are called bankrupt dot coms.

I hope that they share with us whether or not this proved to be worthwhile.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MatthewClement:
Having spoken to the folks at Valuemags, they were indeed making good money on the deal, and were anxious to work with us and continue this as long as possible.

Goldpoints pulled the deal.</font>

My point exactly. Goldpoints were giving the miles and were losing money, which is why they pulled the plug.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 12-27-2001).]

I wonder about all the people who never read FT, never heard of Milespy, who no longer get the 450 per dollar because of the dynamic generated by FT and Milespy (if this was in fact the cause). My point with regard to these kinds of activities remains, is it fair to the average user, the intended user at that, that the offer is truncated because of the profit motive of others (profit motive that goes beyond the intent of the offer... ). I see an accelaration over the past months in the zeal with which programs are 'attacked' for points and the reactions of the programs to those attacks.

I have no ill will to the milespy people personally, but I do believe that the concept poses a threat to the health of frequency programs in general. I would rather see most people get what was intended rather than a few to quickly hack off huge chuncks and see the opportunity reduced or eliminated. I realize FT is about getting ahead of the game, but again, where does the line of fairness get drawn. It seems to me reasonable to share opportunities and then take advantage of them in a way that benifits yourself and leaves the opportunity for others. It's a little too dog eat dog for me to say merely 'he who eats the fastest gets the mostest.'

Of course everyone will draw the line of fairness differently but the extremes of, for lack of a better word, greed, seem clearly over them. Frequency programs were not intended as businesses for others (see airline coupon brokers as an example. are all of you praising milespy in favor of selling miles...that's just someone making a buck) they are intended to reward the customer for actual purchases or travel or hotel nights, etc.

It's taking longer than I thought but I remain convinced that the growth of FT, with the concomitant rise in very large scale advantage taking of frequency programs is a very real threat to the programs in general. One 'Pudding Guy' event was a nice human interest piece and good publicity. A constant barrage on that scale will damage most peoples benefits and reward a very few with a lot. That sounds more like the lottery than a customer reward scheme. Even though I actively monitor FT for opportunities it doesn't mean I am in favor of the few who find out first taking everything and causing most others to be shut out. I self limit because it is in the common interest immediately, and I believe, in both the common and my own interest in the long term.

Nicely stated, wormwood. My sentiments exactly.

Not only that, but because of what I personally think was the abuse of this promo, by turning it into commercial ventures-- possibly contributing to it's premature discontinuance, some folks who were simply following the rules will now have to invest valuable time into making certain that they get the 450 instead of the 150 per $. Phone calls, e-mails, etc. just to insure they get what they were on track to get just a week ago-- no fuss, no muss.

I purchased some (many) magazines a few days ago, but they are "posting" at the the "new" rate of 150 per $. I don't doubt that eventually I will prevail in getting that fixed-- but, IMHO, the abuse of this promo will cause unearned grief for those who followed the rules.

Just my €.02



[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 12-27-2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JonNYC:
...I purchased some (many) magazines a few days ago, but they are "posting" at the the "new" rate of 150 per $. I don't doubt that eventually I will prevail in getting that fixed...</font>

I bought approximately $120 worth of subscriptions on Monday when the 450 point offer was still valid. Today I noticed that the points posted at the 150 rate. I called the Goldpoints service center this morning and the rep said to fax them a copy of the confirmation notice from ValueMags, my Goldpoints account number, and a note requesting the adjustment and my account will be updated. She mentioned in passing that they've been having a lot of problems getting the points to post correctly for ValueMags. Didn't sound like it would be a problem getting the adjustment, but we'll have to see.



[This message has been edited by El Cochinito (edited 12-27-2001).]

I have no ill will to the milespy people personally, but I do believe that the concept poses a threat to the health of frequency programs in general.

I've been giving this a great deal of though recently. I think, in this case, there is a difference.

Goldpoints, unlike Gold Rewards, is a shopping program. It is not affiliated with any specific hotel, airline, etc. It rewards shopping with its partners through its portal.

The Goldpoints business model is commission-based -- they receive a commission for every purchase made through their portal with an affiliate. The loyalty/frequency they reward is shopping through their portal.

It's a little too dog eat dog for me to say merely 'he who eats the fastest gets the mostest.'

Isn't this what happens in a sale? If you want to get the best merchandise, you need to be there as soon as the store opens. If you miss the ad in the paper for the sale, you'll probably be disappointed in the merchandise selection if you get there late. If it's been a great sale, all the merchandise may have gone before you get there -- and the sale will be over.

Frequency programs were not intended as businesses for others (see airline coupon brokers as an example. are all of you praising milespy in favor of selling miles...that's just someone making a buck)

Crucial difference -- airline coupon brokering is against airline rules. This promotion was totally within the rules, and even more, was in the spirit of the rules. We exhibited exactly the behaviour that they were intending to reward.

they are intended to reward the customer for actual purchases or travel or hotel nights, etc.

And they do. Every one of the purchases made by MileSpy or other FTers was an actual, genuine purchase. Magazines were shipped, credit cards were charged -- what bit of this *isn't* an actual purchase?

I think what this comes down to is an issue of ethics, not program rules.

I, for one, would love to move this topic over to a separate thread on ethics and frequency programs.

I'm still bothered by the ethical issues of those on the AA board who plundered the Erin Go Braugh mileage matching offer during the 20/20 promotion. I personally didn't participate in this and thought that it was extremely distasteful of those who did with $1 donations.

Anyway... off topic for this particular forum, but I would be interested in seeing this debate continue somewhere where MILESPY isn't the one getting the brunt of the abuse as, depending on ones personal code of ethics, there are many potential abuses that go on here daily.

Knowing Steve is behind this, I'd feel safe using the service. However, like most other road warriors, I have more miles than I can use, so buying miles just for the sake of having them doesn't appeal to me.

Knowing I can get 50+ miles per $1 spent buying magazines is an appealing proposition, as I read a lot of magazines (anything's better than SkyMall!) but I'm lazy enough I don't want to wade through the Raddisson/Goldpoints/ValuMags noise to figure out how to make it all work.

Given that, I think I'd buy into the service Steve & Matthew are offering if I could get some of the magazines sent to my home. :-)

Goldpoints, unlike Gold Rewards, is a shopping program. It is not affiliated with any specific hotel, airline, etc. It rewards shopping with its partners through its portal.

But we are not using the Goldpoint exchange rate to get the airline miles. We are using the Radisson exchange rate. Your argument would be valid if you were using the Goldpoint rate of 1 mile per 10 points to get the airline miles. So the original point about hurting the health of frequency programs is valid.

Isn't this what happens in a sale? If you want to get the best merchandise, you need to be there as soon as the store opens. If you miss the ad in the paper for the sale, you'll probably be disappointed in the merchandise selection if you get there late. If it's been a great sale, all the merchandise may have gone before you get there -- and the sale will be over.

The difference to me is that in a sale customers do not contract a business to go and grab everything on sale.

Crucial difference -- airline coupon brokering is against airline rules. This promotion was totally within the rules, and even more, was in the spirit of the rules. We exhibited exactly the behaviour that they were intending to reward.

I am not sure that you were complying with the spirit of the rules, as the Radisson Gold Rewards Program is only available to residents in the U.S., Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean (and you were offering miles to people living in those countries and to those who were living outside those countries).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by techgirl:
I think what this comes down to is an issue of ethics, not program rules.

I, for one, would love to move this topic over to a separate thread on ethics and frequency programs.</font>

How about here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000626.html ?

I think that this ventrue is great for all of those who can use it. FT board is for all of us to realize ANY kind of opportunity in the airline FF industry. It HAS been looked at carefully by Randy. I say BRAVO

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by techgirl:
I think what this comes down to is an issue of ethics, not program rules. </font>

While I don't have any ethical problem with this effort, I definitely understand the point those of you who disagree with me are making and it's definitely a valid point of view.

However, after finding my way around FlyerTalk a bit, I find it surprising that so many people have "moral/ethical issues" about "working/taking advantage of" offers like this though staying within the official guidelines of the offer, yet there seems to be far less criticism ofCoupon Connection and things like "mutual gifting".

Once again, I personally have no problem with a &lt;wink,wink&gt; trade taking advantage of a large corporation's marketing program. However, if anyone has a moral problem with anything like Milespy, I'd think they'd be mortified by Coupon Connection.

Have I ever had a colleague use one of my soon-to-expire SWUs for an upcoming trip and have him give me one of his new ones in exchange? Maybe. Do I have a problem with that? Absolutely not - no harm, no foul, I say. Is that bartering and totally against program rules - ABSOLUTELY!

sfojfk1k,

It has been a while so you may not have seen some of my posts vis a vis Coupon connection and the delusion that goes by the recently coined term 'gifting.' It would seem to some that semantics can change barter into gift. Not only is it not true (there is no change in reality due to change in wording) but it's often an attempt at profit under the guise of generosity, which I find particularly apalling (by way of overstating the value of what you offer while understating the value of what you seek).

The same sort of moral/ethical gymnastics is used by some to argue that program gouging is a fair practice. For some, no gymnastics, just a 'tear off as much as you can' approach with no regard for broader consequence or consideration of what is fair to the business that is, after all, offering something rather generous. No consideration of intent. No objective analysis, free from consideration of self interest as to what is fair.

While that is a 'legitimate' point of view I think it is destructive, selfish (short term), and ultimately damaging to all (long term).

I still find amazing, while recognizing it is rather widely held, the view that any possible way to extract points from a program is 'good.'

Apparently, after all the legal (semantic? self interested?) arguments were done, Earl Warren put a decision on a case to one last test...

"but is it fair?"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
The difference to me is that in a sale customers do not contract a business to go and grab everything on sale.
</font>

There's nothing to stop them. There's nothing to stop someone buying some extra for a neighbour either. There are times when I've taken all of something that's on sale, or when there has been nothing left. I don't consider that I've done anything wrong, nor that someone else who ran the stock out before me did either. The store should have brought in sufficient stock to ensure supply or should have limited quantities to ensure they don't run out.

you know, people have often criticized me for being 'harsh' on here... but what I find harsher is the blind, greedy, me me me all for me approach that some exhibit. That is a harsh world indeed. amazing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood:

I still find amazing, while recognizing it is rather widely held, the view that any possible way to extract points from a program is 'good.'</font>

Why wouldn't it be good? Most of these programs have been in existance for a long time, and they know all of the tricks that people use to maximize thier award earnings.

I may not have read every post, but I don't recall seeing any fault placed on the people who organized these special offers. I think they're the ones who are ultimately responsible for this feeding frenzy that has taken place. If their main goal was to reach as many people as possible with this offer, they should have restricted the number of points that each customer could earn.

Since they didn't do that, and their inventory is limitless, I believe people have the right to assume they can order all of the magazines that they want! If the company underestimates the demand for their products, and are overrun with requests, they're the ones who have inconvenienced the customers.

Although I have no evidence, my guess is that MileSpy didn't cause this promotion to end on their own. Even if they've purchased $50,000 worth of magazines themselves -- this would only be approximately $45,000 worth of airline miles that Gold Points would be providing them. I'm willing to bet that $50,000 isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the overall response.

I highly doubt that $45,000 would throw Gold Points into some sort of trouble. If it were a major issue, I'm sure that all of the Gold Points reps would have carefully scripted verbiage to use when speaking with ValueMags customers. This hasn't happened, apparently. It just isn't an urgent priority.

I just don't see anything unethical about purchasing any desired amount of a limitless supply of products from a company that obviously is in business to sell as much as possible. If they decide not to set any limits or rules - - how can we possibly blame the consumer!

@# http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif%$* Dialup! Sorry!

[This message has been edited by SpuddBrother (edited 12-28-2001).]

MileSpy is now selling miles at 2.5 cents per mile. How much do airlines sell miles for? Delta is 2 cents per mile plus tax and handling fee.

PG, how many miles will Delta (or other airlines) let you buy? Most are capped at 20-40K.

We're offering a way to purchase an unlimited number at that price.

And trying to figure out what to do with a ton of steak, nuts, and fruit! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Steak, Nuts and Fruit, OH MY!!!

Steak, Nuts and Fruit, OH MY!!!

LOL

Matthew, sure you will make some people very happy with belated holiday gifts!!!

William

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MatthewClement:
PG, how many miles will Delta (or other airlines) let you buy? Most are capped at 20-40K.

We're offering a way to purchase an unlimited number at that price.

And trying to figure out what to do with a ton of steak, nuts, and fruit! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

Yes but Randy had pitched MileSpy as a way to "top off" miles. I think that the term top off usually means a few thousand miles, not hundreds of thousands of miles.

There also is the age long debate of whether miles should be earned by flying or by buying. And also think about the inflation effects of large scale buying of miles. If the privileged could buy millions of miles, what effect does that have on those whose mileage totals are in the tens or hundreds of thousands of miles - more comptetion for free flights, more competition for upgrades (and less number of complimentary/elite upgrades), and eventually the airlines increase the number of miles needed for free flights. Infact the last time the airlines upped the number of miles needed for free flights, one of the rationale cited by InsideFlyer was that it was now so much easier to accumulate miles by non-flying.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
Yes but Randy had pitched MileSpy as a way to "top off" miles. I think that the term top off usually means a few thousand miles, not hundreds of thousands of miles.</font>

That may be the way Randy pitched it. But simply to top-up an account would be short-selling yourself.

We tend to see it differently -- by viewing frequent flyer miles as "travel currency" you can actually use miles to replace your revenue travel. For premium-cabin flyers, our strategy still offers a great deal, without the hassle of going through the steps (and getting rid of the sheer quantity of goods that the strategy now entails).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PG:
There also is the age long debate of whether miles should be earned by flying or by buying.</font>

Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make up the rules, I didn't make the commercial decision to sell frequent flyer miles (well, I did, but not directly). The airlines decided that selling miles to Goldpoints (and other promotional partners -- eg Kelloggs) was a good commercial decision and a viable source of revenue.

They've defined the rules of the game. Now we get to play with the rules they've laid down.

It's still amazing to me how many of you are jealous of the MILESPY people.I think what's bothering you is that you didn't think of it first.

Matthew, not that it's any of my business, but if you were to tell us that you and Steve only 'sold', say 27 deals for example, this debate would stop immediately.

On the other hand, if you sold several hundred, why didn't you e mail me to get in on the action. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Dan

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dhammer53:
It's still amazing to me how many of you are jealous of the MILESPY people.I think what's bothering you is that you didn't think of it first. </font>

Wrong! If you actually took the time to read the posts here and in the other related threads, you would understand that jealousy has nothing to do with it. It is quite simply an issue of ethics.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dhammer53:
Matthew, not that it's any of my business, but if you were to tell us that you and Steve only 'sold', say 27 deals for example, this debate would stop immediately.
</font>

I'm relucant to discuss the specifics, but I can confirm that the number of people using Milespy to purchase their miles is small (though the orders are reasonably good-sized).

I've spoken to all of the parties involved at various stages. Let's just say that the MileSpy deal was a drop in the bucket.

A quick search reveals that no fewer than three major travel websites presented the Goldpoints / Valuemags deal to their readers. And it was covered on numerous other bulletin boards.

Flyertalkers don't have an exclusive hold on knowledge. This knowledge was widespread.

Heck, a simple look at the e-mail I got (others have mentioned similar things) to confirm my $400+ order shows that in 24 hours, hundreds of people ( valuemags did a cc: not a bcc: ) also placed large orders.

What's going to happen because of golddiggers like milespy is, Radisson is going to discontinue to 4:1 exchange ratio.

matthew: i'd be interested to see which major travel websites covered it. could you please share?

Well, in addition to Mileslink, it was posted at:

Notiflyer (http://www.webflyer.com/notiflyer/frnotif.htm)

David Rowell - The Travel Insider (http://www.davidmrowell.com/travel/current.htm)

FatWallet.com (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=18&threadid=62095)

Frequent Flyer.com (Issue 179) (http://frequentflier.com/ffp-news.htm) (This one isn't online yet, but was e-mailed out.) Here's the relevant text:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">SPECIAL ISSUE ~ CHEAP MILES FROM MILESPY

As mentioned in last week's Crier, we had planned on taking this week
off. That was before I received an e-mail from Steve Belkin at MileSpy (http://WWW.MILESPY.COM). Steve gained some
notoriety a couple of years ago by earning 10.5 million Mileage Plus miles by making creative use of a special limited-time United promotion.

This time, he's turned his proven mileage-earning savvy into a business opportunity for himself, and a buying opportunity for anyone who wants or needs frequent flyer miles.

The Offer

Through MileSpy, for a very limited time (see Deadline info below), you
can purchase an unlimited number of miles for $0.02 each. These are real miles, not "generic miles," in your choice of airline programs, including those of Air Canada, American, America West, Asiana, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Continental, Delta, EL AL, Gulf Air, Icelandair, Latin Pass, Mexicana, Midwest Express, Northwest, Qualiflyer, United and US Airways.


The Value

Is this a good deal? In a word: Yes.

As a point of comparison, the airlines will sell you miles for $0.02 to $0.025 apiece. But there's typically a service charge added to the total, effectively increasing the per-mile cost. And there's normally a cap on the number of miles that can be purchased annually.

Alternatively, you could purchase miles from Miles4Sale http://www.miles4sale.com) for between $0.036 and $0.04 each, depending on quantity -- a hefty premium over the airline-direct prices. And they only sell miles from American, Continental, Northwest, America West and Delta.

Miles EARNED VIA THIS LIMITED TIME PROMOTION from MileSpy, on the other hand, are priced at $0.02 each, and there is no maximum number of miles you can purchase at that price. Nor is there a service charge or other add-on costs.

There is a minimum, though: 100,000 miles, for $2,000.

Also, if flexibility is a key consideration, instead of airline miles in a specific program, you can EARN Gold Points in the Radisson Gold Rewards program, which can then be converted to airline miles as needed.

Cheap Miles, Cheap Tickets

To give you a sense of how miles EARNED VIA MILESPY might translate into actual award-ticket costs, here are some sample calculations, based on the United Mileage Plus award chart:

1. CAPACITY CONTROLLED AWARDS
Domestic - coach class: 25K x $.02 = $500
Domestic - 1st class: 40K x $.02 = $800

US-Europe - Business class: 80K x $.02 = $1,600
US-Europe - 1st class: 100K x $.02 = $2,000

US-Asia/Australia - Business class: 90K x $.02 = $1,800
US-Asia/Australia - 1st class: 120K x $.02 = $2,400

2. "ANYTIME" AWARDS
Domestic - coach class: 40K x $.02 = $800
Domestic - 1st class: 80K x $.02 = $1,600

US-Europe - Business class: 150K x $.02 = $3,000
US-Europe - 1st class: 200k x $.02 = $4,000

US-Asia/Australia - Business class: 150k x $.02 = $3,000
US-Asia/Australia - 1st class: 200k x $.02 = $4,000


The Deadline

Miles at this rate are only available through Jan. 4, 2002. This is a use-it-or-lose-it opportunity (which is why we're altered our publication schedule to get the word out).

How it Works

Without getting into the RATHER COMPLEX underlying mechanics, MileSpy basically leverages partner offers in the Gold Points Rewards program. It's creative, but perfectly legal.

Enjoy!
</font>
Please note, the examples and illustrations in the article are from frequentflier.com, not Milespy.


[This message has been edited by MatthewClement (edited 12-30-2001).]

If I didn't know the above post was from Matthew w/Milespy I'd say it sure looks like an advertisement from a frequent flyer ticket broker.

[This message has been edited by jmoreita (edited 12-30-2001).]

The very fact that FT exists means we all will get reduced benefits over time. The more we milk the system, the more restrictions will be put in place. I really don't care so people might as well take advantage of it while the deals are hot. All you will get is a bag of mustard pretzels and 29" pitch in the end.

Hey, a novel thought, airlines might actually start handing out miles and status ONLY for flying frequently on their planes.

[This message has been edited by BlondeBomber (edited 12-30-2001).]

Several posts ignore the fact that Goldpoints and Radisson are subsidiaries of the Carlson Companies.

From hoovers.com website:

"Carlson Companies began in 1938 as the Gold Bond Stamp Company but has evolved into a leisure services juggernaut. The company owns 50% of travel giant Carlson Wagonlit (French hotelier Accor owns the rest). It also owns more than 745 hotels under brands such as Radisson and Country Inns & Suites By Carlson. Carlson's restaurant empire includes the 670-unit T.G.I. Friday's chain. A specialist in relationship marketing, Carlson Marketing Group offers services such as sales promotion and customer loyalty programs. CEO Marilyn Carlson Nelson and director Barbara Carlson Gage, the daughters of late founder Curtis Carlson, each own half of the company."

IMHO a company that was making money on their Gold Bond Stamps back in 1938 can certainly take care of itself in 2001. If they had wanted the promotion to be 450 points/$ only on say the first $200 of magazines, they certainly could have done it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jmoreita:
If I didn't know the above post was from Matthew w/Milespy I'd say it sure looks like an advertisement from a frequent flyer ticket broker.</font>
jmoreita, please note that *none* of the words on any of the links, or the quote above, came from milespy. Just so that we're absolutely clear...

Matthew,

But you must admit that the price sheet shown above looks the same as a ticket broker's would.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Direct posting of COMMERCIAL ADVERTISEMENTS is NOT permitted.

Do not CROSS POST under the guise of "please read and then tell to others!!!" If you do, you'll find your ability to post on FlyerTalk may be restricted. </font>

Oh, for heaven's sake. If you're going to go on a crusade, at least have the decency to read the whole thread.

My post was DIRECTLY in response to Fireflyreaction's request:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Posted by FireflyReaction
i'd be interested to see which major travel websites covered it. could you please share? </font>
Sigh...

Sigh.

So as long as it is in response to another poster's question. it is acceptable to circumvent the rules? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Matthew- I have been taking all of this Milespy stuff in ..until now. I just wanted to say that I've come to the conclusion that there is MUCH envy/jealousy on this board! There are many "haters" here that simply don't want to see anyone else make financial gains on something that they either didn't think of...or didn't have the resources to follow through with.
Of course..they will never admit to this...and will always use the guise of you "breaking rules" or "ethics concerns" or similar anomalies.
I say BRAVO to you.....and good luck!

For the last time, it is NOT jealousy. Rather, it is a strong distaste for situational ethics. As I have stated before in this thread, http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000626.html ,:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I, like every other FTer, have benefitted greatly from FT. I try to give back when I can by posting information that other FTers, acting in good faith, might find useful. I figure that what goes around comes around, and that even though "loopholes" get closed (or programs pulled, rules tightened, ... insert whatever term that suits your fancy), in the end I benefit from sharing information with other like-minded individuals. Subject to my own moral and ethical limitations, I take advantage of as many ideas as I can. The issue for me is when one of our own takes information posted and/or developed here in our community and then attempts to use that information for a commercial profit. It is irrelevant to me whether that person is providing a needed service, charging a fair price, or making a profit. The use (abuse, exploitation, ...) of a loophole will eventually lead to it either being closed or restricted. "Selling" FT information hurts the community. As a whole, we are losing a "benefit" with nothing in return from the MileSpy customers. Not to mention the fact that the commercial use of this information will have a chilling effect on the free exchange of new information on FT. That, at least in my opinion, is wrong. </font>

What would FlyerTalk become if each of us took every tip/loophole/legitimate promo/nugget of advice/etc. posted here and tried to turn it into a commercial venture?

IM4Travel, whether I had the idea (BTW the triple GoldPoints promo was posted in the Radisson forum 11/15/01, and the ValueMags deal was posted in several forums shortly thereafter) or the financial ability has absolutely no bearing on whether the whole scheme is ethical. In my book, ethics are anything but an anomaly.

hi matthew...just a quick thanks for pointing out the links...i was just curious to see where else the valuemags/goldpoints promo was getting press.

i don't think matthew violated any commercial posting prohibition by answering my question. everyone who has read this thread already knows what milespy is about. it would be akin to not allow advertising on the university campus and then ban a course on marketing/advertising.

cheers

See Matthew....the guise of "ethics" again.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by IM4Travel:
See Matthew....the guise of "ethics" again. </font>

Stellar debating skills. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif Why not address the issue that I raised?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Who cares either way?

Ethics or jealousy. This has been one entertaining thread. And I think we all can agree with that.

Happy New Year.

Dan

From the Globe and Mail up here in Canada:


Earning free flights with magazines and sausages (http://makeashorterlink.com/?P3D92234)


[This message has been edited by Empress (edited 01-02-2002).]

Don't need to...you did it for me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

What ever happened to those milespy.com fellows?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum122/HTML/001343.html

I was thinking about this venture a lot over my vacation. I agree with those who say that the offer created a commodity it is only natural for markets to arise around fungable commodities.

I think if anyone is to "blame" here it is ValuMags who were sloppy in their marketing scheme. They were too loose with the terms of the offer and left themselves open to this sort of commoditization of their offer.

It is also clear, however, that the airlines, hotels, etc have set up pretty darn tight programs to avoid this sort of problem. Sure there are mileage brokers, but they operate clearly outside the rules and their clients can and will be screwed over if caught.

So I'm not at all worried about much of a commodity or futures or even derivatives market arising that will threaten future programs. To the contrary, I would argue that MileSpy has done all marketers a FAVOR by pointing out how NOT to set up a marketing incentive program.

JMHO....

Recent events (or non-events, as it were) change anyone's opinion?

honestly, i never liked the idea at all.

capitalism is one thing, but keynes really proved the methods that it took to make it work. i don't think keynes would have approved of this one...(though, i'd be more than happy to hear more educated opinions)

"...i don't think keynes would have approved of this one..."

Too bad we can't get him on a FT chat to find out! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kokonutz:
I was thinking about this venture a lot over my vacation. I agree with those who say that the offer created a commodity it is only natural for markets to arise around fungable commodities.

I think if anyone is to "blame" here it is ValuMags who were sloppy in their marketing scheme. They were too loose with the terms of the offer and left themselves open to this sort of commoditization of their offer.

It is also clear, however, that the airlines, hotels, etc have set up pretty darn tight programs to avoid this sort of problem. Sure there are mileage brokers, but they operate clearly outside the rules and their clients can and will be screwed over if caught.

So I'm not at all worried about much of a commodity or futures or even derivatives market arising that will threaten future programs. To the contrary, I would argue that MileSpy has done all marketers a FAVOR by pointing out how NOT to set up a marketing incentive program.

JMHO....</font>

I disagree completely. Commercial exploitation means that whatever good deals there are will simply dry up. Miles are not a commodity - I don't think that we want our free trips and upgrades available only to the highest bidder.

I disagree that MileSpy has done anyone a favor - with the exception of those who were too lazy to do the paperwork themselves and were willing to pay a fee of at least $600.

I think that the blame would be to GoldPoints (not ValueMags). ValueMags made money on this, Goldpoints lost money. Which refutes the assertion that "hotels have set up pretty darn tight programs". Its food for thought whether or not we want to kill the golden goose.

I want no part of the debate over the ethics of Milespy.

I am however, extremely curious to hear if Matthew is having problems with points posting and subsequently being reduced like the rest of us are.

PG: I always enjoy it when you disagree with me, because you do it so well http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

OTOH, I do agree with your premise that miles should NOT be a commodity. To clarify, I think that this program made the mistake of allowing the points to become a commodity, and that this is an abject lesson for other loyalty programs as to why they should pay careful attention to their rules to keep this from happening. This experince also proves that once that mistake is made, natural market forces will come into play.

kokonutz: which is why i brought up keynes. he understood that natural market forces alone are not sufficient to a prosperous society.

doc: i'll see what i can do about your request...anyone have jo-jo's number? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Thanks, fireflyreaction! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Six months later, with the demise of the GoldPoints program, I find this thread to be interesting reading.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by travelcoupons on Dec. 30, 2001:
What's going to happen because of golddiggers like milespy is, Radisson is going to discontinue to 4:1 exchange ratio. </font>

I told you so....



[This message has been edited by travelcoupons (edited 05-09-2002).]

another example of killing the golden goose by piling on way beyond reasonable. We have moderators on the board, how about moderation in taking advantage of promotions and loopholes. The Goldpoints behavior reminds me of the charities (who collect clothes they sell for next to nothing to a for profit thrift store reseller) who call every number in the book every month. Both are examples of using a strip mining mentality to approach what should be handled with a much lighter touch.

I must have missed something. What has happened with Goldpoints?

There is an article in the German magazine DER SPIEGEL.
Bottom line: There are so many miles out - they might become worthless.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,195326,00.html

Sorry, in German.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CountinPlaces:
I must have missed something. What has happened with Goldpoints?</font>

GoldPoints still exists, but Radisson has eliminated its 4-to-1 redemption for miles. You now need to stay at a Radisson property during the previous 12-month period to redeem points at a "special" 8-to-1 ratio. Regular GP members can redeem at 10-to-1.

Furthermore, the number of merchants on the GP site has been reduced drastically. Also, you now earn GPs for Radisson stays per night, rather than per stay. There is also a cap of how many points you can convert to miles annually.

Keep in mind that most of these changes occurred without any or little prior notice on GP's part.

This about sums it up. Did I not mention something?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood:
another example of killing the golden goose by piling on way beyond reasonable. We have moderators on the board, how about moderation in taking advantage of promotions and loopholes. The Goldpoints behavior reminds me of the charities (who collect clothes they sell for next to nothing to a for profit thrift store reseller) who call every number in the book every month. Both are examples of using a strip mining mentality to approach what should be handled with a much lighter touch.

</font>

As many of us have said over and over again, this was a very poorly executed promotion on the part of GoldPoints/Radisson. IF they were worried about the mileage, they very easily could have placed a cap on the number of bonus points earned and thereafter offered only regular points earning.

Also, Radisson is making a mistake in reducing their GoldPoints:Mileage ratio. The Valuemags debacle was a one time error on their part and they can prevent it from happening again. Diluting the current stock of outstanding GoldPoints will only alienate their valuable customers. A better move would have been to dilute GoldPoints earned OUTSIDE the Radisson brand, thereby not harming their customers.

That being said, I doubt this is much of a drop in the bucket to Carlsson travel. We don't know if they even lost money on this promotion. We have *no* idea what they pay for miles but I can guarantee it isn't anywhere close to the .02 that we value them at. Perhaps Randy could weigh in here?


[This message has been edited by kanebear (edited 05-10-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kanebear:
That being said, I doubt this is much of a drop in the bucket to Carlsson travel. We don't know if they even lost money on this promotion. </font>

So this is all just one big coincidence??

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete:
So this is all just one big coincidence??</font>

Not at all, it's rather shortsighted to assume that there's only a monetary consideration behind the Goldpoints decision. It could be pressure from Radisson's program partners, it could be a change they'd been planning to make all along. After all, if they REALLY wanted to stem the tide of Valuemags earned points, why not just terminate redemption at the Radisson rate and only allow redemption at GoldPoints 10:1 ratio with the GoldPoints partners? After all, those points weren't earned at a Radisson hotel therefore why should they have ever allowed for redemption through that channel? Personally I'm rather glad they did but it doesn't make sense that they did so.

Here's my take on it. I had 24,500 GP in my Radisson account: 1,500 from email address updates, all the rest from R stays and R stay bonuses. No Valuemags or even TGIF for me.

I always assumed that I'd be moving the points to my AA account, but didn't see any need to do that yet, since there was always a chance I might want to redeem for a free R night instead.

I read about the change here on 4/29, and immediately moved 24K to AA. On 5/07, R sent me an email detailing the changes, and listing a May 1 deadline for 4:1 transfers. If there is a grace period until the end of May, there was no indication of that in the email.

If I hadn't gotten the notice thru Flyertalk, I'd be pretty p.o.'ed right now. And I've got to think there are lots of non-flyertalkers in that exact situation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by swag:
On 5/07, R sent me an email detailing the changes, and listing a May 1 deadline for 4:1 transfers. If there is a grace period until the end of May, there was no indication of that in the email.</font>

I'm yet to receive any notification from Radisson or GoldPoints regarding changing transfer rates. Flyertalk was the only source of that important information for me.

And FWIW, my points were a combination of Radisson stays, TGIF use and shopping through GoldPoints portal (nothing too eccentric, no Valuemags purchases).

I got my notification of the change in writing, buried in a Radisson Goldpoints newsletter. It mentioned a grace perioud until 6/1...

Radisson Gold Rewards E-newsletter, RGR member # ___
Sent: Tue 5/7/2002 8:27 PM


Radisson Gold Rewards has made some exciting program enhancements to help you earn Gold Points faster.

More Points per Stay.
Beginning May 1, 2002, earn 1,000 points per night, up to 10 consecutive nights per stay, at any participating Radisson hotel or resort.

Stay three - earn more!
Just two stays qualify you to earn an extra 1,000 bonus Gold Points per night, up to 10 consecutive nights per stay, on your third and each additional stay, May 1 through
December 31, 2002. For more information visit www.radisson.com/1000bonus. (http://www.radisson.com/1000bonus.)

Earn miles for your stay.
Radisson Gold Rewards allows you to redeem Gold Points for miles on over 20 partner airlines, making it possible to go anywhere you want to go. As of May 1, 2002, points can be redeemed for miles at an 8:1 ratio.

More redemption options.
Redeem Gold Points for free nights with any of our hotel partners: Radisson Hotels & Resorts®, Country Inns & Suites®, and Park Inn® and Park Plaza® hotels. And with Radisson's new FlexNights(SM) option, there are no blackout dates. With FlexNights, when there's a room, it's yours!

Radisson.com - the easy, convenient way to redeem.
Make your Radisson hotel award reservations (using your Gold Points) online at www.radisson.com/redeemgp. (http://www.radisson.com/redeemgp.)

Radisson has booted another one. Sure, it's common practice to bury adverse changes in the fine print and to label them "enhancements", but part of that practice has been an effective date at least 6 months in the future. If you're going to make such a sharp turn, you owe it to your members to warn them in clear terms. I could at least have respected that approach, even though I'd still have regarded it as bad business.

Radisson's announcement posted by swag bespeaks an unprecedentedly aggressive effort to surreptitiously devalue the accounts of unwary members, including some of its most loyal customers. Futhermore, an unknown but probably large number of members received no notice whatsoever of the change from Radisson. I got no notification from them even though they have used both my current snail and email addresses for other announcements in the recent past.

Somebody needs to give Radisson's management a dope slap.

but it is the result of them getting hit so hard on the earnings end. It's funny, everyone expects to be handled fairly from the business but not to have any consideration of what is fair in how you treat the business. I don't see that as reasonable. Take them to the cleaners at any opportunity and expect the same attitude in return. Seems fair to me.

Of course the ones really hurt are the ones who have been loyal and reasonable all along. they get run over by changes after the rapists/slash and burners get through with the program.

This is happening all over the FF world, and even nonspecifically with respect to the explosion of total miles/points outstanding. If you don't think that will lead to degradation/devaluation you are deluded. And those howling loudest will be those who raped the hardest. amazing




[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 05-12-2002).]

wormwood,

i will kindly ask you not to use the term 'rape' when talking about these point and miles issues. i don't think it appropriate to use that word outside of the context of the heinous crime it describes. there are people in my life who have been affected by it, and i don't think it's application here is at all helpful. i have been guilty of this misuse in the past as well, so i intend this as a self and community reminder as much as anything.

i will also reiterate what others have said before... we don't know what Radisson/Goldpoints is paying for frequent flyer miles, so we really have no basis to judge if they are indeed being hit hard on the earnings end. regardless, i shed no tears for them. any company who would zero out my account to recoup some losses will receive no sympathy from me whatsoever.

Ender83,

with genuine respect, 'rape' is defined as a despoiling of a thing or person. In Websters the forcible sexual rape of a woman is the second definition to the general despoiling. I used the word with careful consideration. I believe the programs are being despoiled by people with disregard for the despoiled. Rape is the appropriate word and its choice supported by usage as outlined in the dictionary. no contextual reading of my post would indicate I in any way implied a sexual rape. My regrets it causes you distress, none is intended but I don't see altering the usage of the language based on sentiment, if that were done we'd be denied access to too many words.

As many would know, to their disappointment I am sure, I feel strongly a few are going to destroy FF programs for the many and I intend to comment on that issue in the strongest terms whenever I feel moved to do so. There is no greater threat to FF than the people who feel it appropriate to rip off huge chunks of mileage with no regard for consequence to the bigger picture. You can state until you are blue in the face that there is no way to know who is being hurt, I can't look at the big picture, as well as the many specifics and come to any other conclusion that programs are being despoiled (and rape is the better choice of words because it implies the coarseness and forceful violation of the programs that in my opinion is ocurring) and that changes as the result of that rape are hurting far more people than are benefiting. \

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by swag:
Sent: Tue 5/7/2002 8:27 PM

&lt;&lt; SNIP &gt;&gt;

Earn miles for your stay.
Radisson Gold Rewards allows you to redeem Gold Points for miles on over 20 partner airlines, making it possible to go anywhere you want to go. As of May 1, 2002, points can be redeemed for miles at an 8:1 ratio.
</font>

Classy, Radisson. Send out notification of program changes a week after they take effect.

The change is effective June 1 not May 1. This and the other changes to the Radisson program are discussed in a couple of threads under Radisson.

Rip-off? What exactly are you referring to wormwood? GoldPoints made an offer of 450 points per dollar for magazine purchases thru their site. The existing program offered a 4:1 mileage redemption option for members of Radisson. There were no limits specified either in volume of magazines that could be purchased, number of GoldPoints that could be received, or mileage that could be earned. That's it. I see no rip-offs there.

Further, we have no idea if GoldPoints (or anyone) lost money on the promotion or how much they may have lost. We have no idea what the arrangement was between GoldPoints and ValueMags, between GoldPoints and Radisson, or between either of those two and the airlines who they purchase miles from. We also don't know if the promo led to people making more stays at Radisson or more purchases thru other partners. My guess is that Carlson hasn't even looked at that and even if they did, there isn't a lot of information since the promo has only been over for 4 months.

If GoldPoints was so concerned that this promotion was going to impact them significantly, they could have limited the number of purchases or points that could be earned. Even supermarkets limit purchases of cans of corn when they have them on special, i.e., limit 4 per customer. Face it, GoldPoints screwed up and didn't anticipate demand. They are now trying to rectify that by changing the rules to devalue points. That is certainly within their rights, even if it is short-sighted.

I always hear that we don't know this or we don't know that. I hear they could have done this or they could have done that. You don't seem to know either.

However, what I do know is a hugely rich promo shows up, gets pounced on, the rules change. Then people say one had nothing to do with the other. For myself I've seen it enough times and it's been clear enough to me. You can believe what you will. I think it's pretty hard, outside wishful thinking or delusion, to deny that programs are affected by actions like ocurred with Valuemages et al.

Why didn't they limit the transactions? Could it be they didn't forsee unreasonable people ordering thousands of dollars worth of magazines? Could it be they did want to attract attention with an overgenerous offer and got caught on the response? Can you say "LatinPass"?

Of course, in the legal sense they are, in my opinion to honor the huge orders because they didn't set a limit. That is an entirely separate view from the fact that the huge orders were an unfair (not illegal) response. Okay, so you don't agree, fine. Well, there will come a time when there is no generosity left at all in frequency programs.

To me it's no different than eating too much, another American favorite (remember I am American despite the locale)... it's great while your doing it, but it has consequences down the road, it's downright disgusting in wretched excess, not to mention totally disrespectful of those who don't have as much... and, heck, lets go all they way here... it despoils (rapes) the world (can you say SUV's that never see the woods, single meals large enough to feed a family, houses the size small apartment buildings, and, of course, frequent flyer accounts bloated not by flying frequently but by greed powered by large checkbooks.

Well, I should get pummeled for that, no problemo, but I believe wretched excess is both unfair, unjust even, and profoundly unattractive in any of its guises.



[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 05-13-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dave99:
The change is effective June 1 not May 1.</font>

With all due respect, that's incorrect. The change is effective May 1 (and it says so in the e-mail posted by swag earlier in this thread):

"As of May 1, 2002, points can be redeemed for miles at an 8:1 ratio."

Then, unofficially (at least I have never seen it in writing by GP or Radisson), GP decided (I'm sure under the pressure from many disappointed members) to provide a grace period until June 1 to allow one transfer at the 4:1 ratio.

Eugene - You can see it in writing on the Radisson posts from Radisson Customer Service. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Eugene:
With all due respect, that's incorrect. The change is effective May 1 (and it says so in the e-mail posted by swag earlier in this thread):

"As of May 1, 2002, points can be redeemed for miles at an 8:1 ratio."

Then, unofficially (at least I have never seen it in writing by GP or Radisson), GP decided (I'm sure under the pressure from many disappointed members) to provide a grace period until June 1 to allow one transfer at the 4:1 ratio.</font>

Yes. The point of my post was that even if the June 1 date was accurate, a non-FT'ing Radisson customer would not know that, and would assume that the deadline had passed. Maybe he'd call or write to complain and get the 4:1; or maybe he'd assume nothing could be done, and get 8:1 when he eventually converted.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dave99:
Eugene - You can see it in writing on the Radisson posts from Radisson Customer Service. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>

True, that has been posted here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum91/HTML/000239.html), albeit after the fact (on May 7).

It does not make it official though, since Julie, aka Radisson Customer Service, posted the following here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum91/HTML/000242.html):

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Radisson Customer Service:
I work at Radisson Corporate Customer Service, not Gold Points.

&lt;snip&gt;

Please note that the only Gold Points issue handled at Radisson Corporate Customer Service is missing Gold Points for a hotel stay.

Please contact Gold Points Customer Service at 800-508-9000 for all other Gold Points issues.

Thanks for understanding that like all large corporations, Carlson has many entities. Radisson is a separate organization, run independently from the brand loyalty programs under the Gold Rewards umbrella.

Julie
Radisson Corporate Customer Service</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood:
but it is the result of them getting hit so hard on the earnings end.</font>

You know this how? Please cite your source of information.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood:
...There is no greater threat to FF than the people who feel it appropriate to rip off huge chunks of mileage with no regard for consequence to the bigger picture... </font>

Rip off huge chunks of mileage? Please explain to me exactly how it is that we go about 'ripping off' such mileage? Lest you forget, the airlines set the price for that mileage. It's not given away free.

I'm not sure where you see these huge losses coming from but FF award redemptions do NOT cost the airline what they would charge a revenue passenger. The actual costs of an additional passenger filling a seat are marginal to the airline. That's what revenue management is about and that's why award redemption is always harder than buying a ticket.

Here's a puzzle for you, if I earn 150,000 miles with one flight (entirely possible at one point on CO due to multiple concurrent mileage bonuses), am I still strip-mining the program?

My friend, business is not about "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." It's the responsibility of any business to make sure any offers are healthy for their bottom line. If they aren't, why are they offering them?? If the promo was a loss leader, why not put in language to the effect of "One to a customer?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

To all the people lambasting wormwood and his theories on the Radisson/GoldPoints changes:

Ask yourselves the following questions:

1) If Radisson/GP weren't losing money on this promotion, why would they change it so severely in their favor?

2) If they weren't losing money on this promotion, why is this now the second time they've significantly changed terms (the reduction of ValueMags points being the first) with very little or no advance notice?

3) If, as some of you claim, they actually were making money by doing what they were doing, would it not make business sense to keep doing what was profitable?

Personally, I tend to agree with what wormwood says about it. They had a system which they promoted, yet got used to a point that they didn't anticipate - and because people were using that system to that level, they took steps to ensure that it didn't happen in the future.

Consider the math on the ValueMags deal:

450 points/$ = $4.44 for 2000 points
2000 points = 500 FF miles
$4.44 for 500 FF miles = $.0088 per mile

If GoldPoints were paying $.01 per mile, that alone says they were losing money on each transaction. However, we don't know how much they paid, or how much ValueMags gave as a commission for each transaction to GP.

What we do know, however, is the numerous hours that GP customer service people spent researching transactions that didn't go through, and dealing with people (many of whom are documented here on FT) as spending time on the phone or writing e-mail to claim missing points and make numerous transfers to the FF account of their choice. From a pure payroll point, I highly doubt that this was cost-effective for them to continue, even if they ended up making a small profit on the miles or commissions.

If a business loses money on each single transaction, then it makes sense for them to abandon it and move on to something else. It sucks that they did it with no notice. That, though, is their right to do.

Mike

deleted

[This message has been edited by nako (edited 05-13-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by nako:
To all the people lambasting wormwood and his theories on the Radisson/GoldPoints changes:

Ask yourselves the following questions:

1) If Radisson/GP weren't losing money on this promotion, why would they change it so severely in their favor? </font>

Who knows? Perhaps they felt like it? We don't know the specifics therefore second guessing management is like pissing in the wind.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">2) If they weren't losing money on this promotion, why is this now the second time they've significantly changed terms (the reduction of ValueMags points being the first) with very little or no advance notice?</font>

The auditing of ValueMags points wasn't a reduction. Some orders posted mistakenly at 150 points and some didn't post at all, which GoldPoints corrected manually.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">3) If, as some of you claim, they actually were making money by doing what they were doing, would it not make business sense to keep doing what was profitable?</font>

Not necessarily. Just because it's profitable doesn't mean it's good business sense. The airlines might not have liked seeing so many miles coming in from a partner and could have severed their relationships had such a promotion been allowed to continue. For all we know, Goldpoints diluted the mileage redemption at the behest of their partners.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Personally, I tend to agree with what wormwood says about it. They had a system which they promoted, yet got used to a point that they didn't anticipate - and because people were using that system to that level, they took steps to ensure that it didn't happen in the future.

Consider the math on the ValueMags deal:

450 points/$ = $4.44 for 2000 points
2000 points = 500 FF miles
$4.44 for 500 FF miles = $.0088 per mile

If GoldPoints were paying $.01 per mile, that alone says they were losing money on each transaction. However, we don't know how much they paid, or how much ValueMags gave as a commission for each transaction to GP.</font>

No we don't, and that's exactly why all this conjecture is meaningless. What business runs a promotion DESIGNED to increase usage/sales (and that's what winter sales are for, are they not?) and then says, "Oh, wait, I wanted you to buy more but not that much!". Isn't that a mixed message? By running a promotion are they not inducing us to do more business with them? This is where I believe the people who've been pis*ing and moaning about how we took advantage of GoldPoints are missing the point. WE DID EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO! In what business do they run a promotion they only want to be MODERATELY SUCCESSFUL!?

As far as the "great money loss" I assure you, if the point redemptions were going to seriously financially cripple the company or even take it under they would have taken action to limit their exposure, from limiting the amount of points redeemable per year (a la LatinPass) to prohibiting the conversion of non-Radisson points to Radisson airline partners at the Radisson rate (GoldPoints has their own 10:1 conversion ratio to far fewer airlines) to declaring bankruptcy, terminating the program, and saying "sue me".

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">What we do know, however, is the numerous hours that GP customer service people spent researching transactions that didn't go through, and dealing with people (many of whom are documented here on FT) as spending time on the phone or writing e-mail to claim missing points and make numerous transfers to the FF account of their choice. From a pure payroll point, I highly doubt that this was cost-effective for them to continue, even if they ended up making a small profit on the miles or commissions.</font>

Which is their own fault for not having systems in place to automate the processes involved. Our transactions were not out of the ordinary, they were larger than most but they were not complex. The only reason why things took as long as they did and required as much effort as they did is due to the way GoldPoints is organized and they are solely responsible for that. Again, why am I in the wrong for doing more business with/through them?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">If a business loses money on each single transaction, then it makes sense for them to abandon it and move on to something else. It sucks that they did it with no notice. That, though, is their right to do.

Mike</font>

They haven't "abandoned" anything at all. They've cut the point value in half which stinks but there's no way to know why they chose to do so. If it is due to Valuemags they're closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. Again, there's no explaining poor management.

So, to both you and Wormwood I pose this question : What of the many internet businesses that gave something away for nothing and extolled free services. Are we abusing them as well by using them? So many businesses went belly up, is it OUR FAULT that such a company went under BECAUSE IT WAS BUILT ON A FAULTY BUSINESS MODEL WITH NO PATH TO PROFITABILITY??? By your logic, we're to blame for that as well for using their services.

Gentlemen, running a business brings with it a great responsibility. There's no safety net and your ... is out there on the line every day. That's just life. Yes there's fair dealing and I believe in being equitable and honorable. Had Goldpoints come to me and said, "Mr. Kanebear, we lost quite a bit of money on your order. Would you be willing to accept XXX as compensation or perhaps like to have your order cancelled and your credit card refunded?" I would have listened. I can't say what action I would have taken but I probably would have agreed to cancel the orders and refund my credit card... no harm, no foul.

The fact is, they did nothing of the sort and in fact transferred my points with a thank you and a smile. In the absence of such contact from them, I can only assume that they had no problems with my transactions and were satisfied with the result. It is not my job to second guess their decisions.

And Wormwood,

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Wormwood:

it's great while your doing it, but it has consequences down the road, it's downright disgusting in wretched excess, not to mention totally disrespectful of those who don't have as much... </font> Disrespectful of those who don't have as much? So, this begs the question. Do you miss the USSR much??? Should I buy less food because someone else can't? Should I earn less money because someone else makes less than I do? Last I heard, Communism failed miserably.

In any case, compadre, I appreciate your distaste for gluttony. As a proudly overweight American, I'll toast you as I heartily cut into my medium-rare 24 oz. Porterhouse steak. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by kanebear (edited 05-13-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kanebear:
WE DID EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO! In what business do they run a promotion they only want to be MODERATELY SUCCESSFUL!?
</font>
Well, if you are running an all-you-can eat buffet and you forget to ban take-out, you might be in a similar position to Radission on this promotion. Wormwood says that we should not take advantage of what is almost certainly an oversight. I say that many people will do so, since the rules allow it, so my individual decision makes negligible difference overall. There is truth in both points of view, which is why neither of you will win the debate.

I have agreed all along that Radisson is within its legal rights to make changes with zero notice, but I maintain that this is no way to run a loyalty program. Members are expected (except possibly by wormwood) to maximize their benefits under the rules. The fickleness of their loyalties is the raison d'etre of loyalty programs. Because of this inherent asymmetry, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the members to assign the same value to maintaining good relations with the program that the program should assign to maintaining good relations with members. Just my 1 mile (=$.02).

If a program wants me to be loyal, it has to earn it. For example, if Southwest were ever to offer anything like ValueMags, I'd be on the phone pronto telling them to withdraw it immediately before the s**t hit the fan and caused financial losses and/or a devaluation of member benefits. They take good care of me and I will help them every way I can. (I wouldn't do this for any other program, BTW.) Maybe somebody did phone Radisson and was ignored, or maybe the holiday shutdown delayed their response; I don't know.

I spoke with Andrew at ValueMags.com the first day this promotion was made public. And I told him what to expect, and if anything I told him to expect more FlyerTalk
members to take advantage of than did. And his comments were "Great, we're ready. We'll all be happy then". So i don't feel any sorrow for anyone at "ValueMags.com" or "GoldPoints.com".

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jmoreita:
his comments were "Great, we're ready. We'll all be happy then".</font>

IMHO, if anything, this is a clear indication of how incredibly amateurish were people responsible for this promotion.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by nsx:
I have agreed all along that Radisson is within its legal rights to make changes with zero notice, but I maintain that this is no way to run a loyalty program. </font>

I agree with you here completely. Valuemags had *nothing at all* to do with people who prefer to stay at Radisson hotels, unless they happened to participate in the ValueMags promotion. Yet the end result (8:1 mileage transfer ratio) has harmed the very people this loyalty program is designed to lure and keep, which could potentially cause Radisson *much* greater harm over the long term than Valuemags did. Again, I come back to poor management decisions. If they are trying to prevent another ValueMags, they should limit/halt redemption of GoldPoints through Radisson for mileage conversion, not harm their most loyal guests.

Wormwood and I will never agree, that much is clear. We'll always be on opposite sides of the issue and will have to agree to disagree.

If you have the time and inclination to do a search on wormwood's posts you will see that by his own logic any participation in the valuemags offer was unethical. You will also see that he participated in the promo.

Many of us saw the valuemags promo for what it was, a business offer made to us calculated to get us to participate. Nothing unethical about participating. Wormwood, on the other hand, saw it as unethical from the get go and yet still choose to engage in what he himself deemed unethical activity. He has no claim to the high moral ground here at all, quite the opposite.

My guess is that he has it in for the Milespy people for some reason and that is what fuels his continued hot air. I think the rest of us can pretty much ignore him. It works for me!


[This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 05-14-2002).]

Kanebear:

My inclination as to why GP would engage in such a promotion knowing that they'd be losing money is because it would be a loss leader. You know, the old "get people in to buy something at a great value, and even though we lose money on it, we'll make it back up in the long run because they'll buy other stuff." Having worked in a retailer notorious for doing this on a daily basis, I've seen how well it can work when done correctly.

And for GP, it backfired in the worst possible way.

Whose fault is this? We can argue back and forth all day as to who is to blame. The point is - I find it difficult for you or *anyone* to assert that GP didn't lose money in this whole deal.

Oh, and yes, this is the second time that they've changed terms without notice. Remember, the 150 pts/$ fiasco with ValueMags began when they attempted to reduce the point value for purchases four days before the promotion was supposed to end.

Mike

I never stay at Radison. (I give as much as possible of my business to Hilton since I can transfer FF miles into Hilton, which is what I usually do with miles, since I almost never can get a free flight when I need it.) Thus, I was not a member of Radison's frequent guest program. When I learned about Valuemag, I joined, but my only intention was to buy everyone magazines for Christmas, and then have Radison convert the resultant points to FF miles, which I would then launder into Hilton Hhonors points. Hence, Radison would not have gotten a single revenue night out of me that they were not going to get anyway, and they still won't, even though I am now a member of Radison's program. I suspect that Radison realized that there were a lot of people out there like me, who were just in it for the miles and who were very INfrequent guests at Radison properties and thus the program refocused its priorities on maximizing the program's benefits from the point of view of those who actually stay at Radison properties.(Valuemag's plug got pulled a day before I placed the order; I thought I had until the end of December, so I spent too much time asking everyone what magazine they wanted, so it didn't work for me.)

kanebear http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

wormwood - I am unsure how you felt comfortable participating in the promotion if you consider it such a ethical dilemma.

Perhaps I misunderstand your situation.

To each his/her own! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by doc:
To each his/her own! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The problem with arguing with a fool is that the people watching might not be able to tell which is which.

Mvic,

As I made clear before, I chose to participate at a level I saw as fair and as, reasonably intended by the offerer. I have never said no one should have participated at all. I said reasonable people should treat others reasonably. Did you miss that part? Did I ever say any participation was unreasonalbe? Quite the contrary, I outline my personal process for deciding what to do... that I would order magazines I would read on subjects of interest to me, one copy of each... that's what I considered reasonable. Have I once in any post suggested that no one should have ordered any magazines, or have I expressed my belief that ordering thousands of dollars worth voilated the spirit of the offer, ruined the process for the future, and displayed disregard (when fair regard was yet expected in return). I don't think I missed differentiating those two ideas.

BTW, I am not trying to 'win' an arugument, I won't 'win' with my ideas in this place. I am, however, trying to posit other considerations in the hope some people will consider (reconsider) whether they really 'win' when programs are strip mined to the point of destruction.

I don't have it 'in' for milespy and actually received an email from one of the principals appreciative of the flow of differing ideas. As individual people I have no ill will for Beaubo or Matthew Clement, none at all. I see some of their behavior as destructive to the overall picture, this I choose to point out. This forum is after all about sharing ideas and ideas are much bigger than just bonuses; and bonuses, and their future in particular, are about more than just the particulars of a particular bonus (repetition intended http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )

I DO have it in for the idea that FF programs can be run over in such a way as exemplified by GP/VM and then the 'community' can expect FF to continue to be reasonably generous over time. I thought that was obvious. I have a stake personally in that (I have quite a few miles/points as previously stated) as well as a view that if we expect (as FTers do in abundance) to be treated well and fairly, that we ought to consider what fair treatment is in return. I don't see that as novel or extreme. What I see as novel and extreme is the use of the internet, this site in particular, to empower all the gougers with quick information, and that this has dire consequence for the future. I do believe lack of self-limitation is a threat to frequency programs in the age of instant sharing (and on a broader plane lack of self limitation is a threat to much more).

[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 05-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 05-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 05-14-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by nako:
&lt;snip&gt; The point is - I find it difficult for you or *anyone* to assert that GP didn't lose money in this whole deal. &lt;snip&gt;
</font>

Without knowing the exact nature of their agreements both with the airlines and Valuemags it's impossible to assert whether they did or didn't lose money. For all we know, Radisson may trade out crew-space for airline miles. Yes there's a 'cost' for the rooms but that's not the same thing as an outflow of cash. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood:
I do believe lack of self-limitation is a threat to frequency programs in the age of instant sharing (and on a broader plane lack of self limitation is a threat to much more).</font>

Point well taken. Information sharing is a fact of life now. The flip side is: who wants to be the one who missed out on the deal of the year? FT exists to share information. Yes, it works to the detriment of uncapped loss-leader promotions (and I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that *somebody* lost a bunch of money on ValueMags), but that's ultimately the fault of the designers of the promotion. You might as well blame water for running downhill.

Getting back to your point: are FTers better off with a few super-generous promotions that only a few of us find out about? I prefer less generous promotions that we all have a chance to participate in, and I think that's where things are headed. I don't agree with the doom and gloom.


The parenthetical comment is where I have to disagree. Human beings have been living with what economists call the "tragedy of the commons" since before the dawn of recorded history. We make rules and procedures to deal with the problem, taking human nature (greed, if you prefer) as a given. Some say greed is bad, and some say greed is good, but either way, greed IS. Get over it. Systems that require human nature to change are doomed to failure.

[This message has been edited by nsx (edited 05-14-2002).]