MilesBuzz! - Nightmare with United/Air Canada/Alitalia

We had a horrible flight experience with United/Air Canada and Alitalia.

The ticket was booked on an Alitalia ticket stock, routing Toronto-Milan-Newark-Toronto. The return flight was changed by Alitalia in Milan, updated in both the Alitalia system (for MXP-EWR) and the United stystem (for EWR-YYZ). In addition to that, I got an updated print-out and my ticket was stickered, flight status was "OK". MXP-EWR was in D and EWR-YYZ was in Y.

* United in EWR had us to check-in with Air Canada because AC was the operating carrier.
* AC refused to accept our tickets because it was stickered. They said "no stickers on international tickets".
* AC sent us to AZ.
* AZ were unwilling to help us because "no stickers" and because of "fare restrictions".
* We then went to UA because we were confirmed on a UA flight. UA refused to take responsibility because "we will not receive any money from this flight".

To make the story short: None of the three airlines wanted to accept our valid ticket and we ended up buying three new one way tickets from United for exactelly those flights that we were holding valid tickets.

A call to United gave me the result "Sorry for the inconvinience, please deal with AZ. No refund possible".

What would you do in such a situation? From whom shall we get the money back? Which steps are we going to take now?

We had a horrible flight experience with United/Air Canada and Alitalia.

A call to United gave me the result "Sorry for the inconvinience, please deal with AZ. No refund possible".

What would you do in such a situation? From whom shall we get the money back? Which steps are we going to take now?
First of all, I'm so sorry you had this experience. It must have been unbelievably frustrating. I hope you spoke with some supervisors, and explained to them the situation politely. People are more willing to help if you are cordial, whether it's genuine or not. :rolleyes:

Try calling all 3 airlines - if none are willing to resolve this situation, dispute the charge with your credit card company. Explain to them what happened, tell them you have the original ticket as proof you had a valid ticket, and they might be willing to resolve the situation for you. You'd be surprised how willing a company resolves a situation when a credit card company calls them. :rolleyes:

Sounds like AZ put the stickers on, which caused the problem.

I would work with AZ.

You didn't mention LCA in the mix, so I assume these were not part of the YYZ-LCA deal from last April, or?

If it were me, I would contest the charge for the new tickets on my credit card and continue to pursue a refund through AZ. I would keep copies of all correspondence and write down immediately any recollection that you have of what was said, when and where, when you were dealing with the various airlines. Dates, times, locations and even who you spoke with should try to be recalled and written down so that when you pursue this further with AZ you will not forget any of this. It may also come in helpful with your credit card company in the dispute.

I'm confused as to why you involved UA at this point by purchasing the ticket through them, I think that will be a mistake in the end. AC as the operator could've accepted the ticket or AZ could've corrected the problem - those are the two carriers involved with the dispute, but now you've involved UA and I don't believe you have anything standing to deny the charge to your credit card company.

I would pursue this with AZ as the ticket was printed on their stock and they made the changes and affixed the stickers, etc. G'Luck.

ACtually AC could have accepted the tickets. The 'no sticker' policy only referred to their ticketing stock and there is no way that AZ would have known that.

AZ could have also just reissued the ticket properly so that it reflects as a paper ticket instead of a sticker. You could have explained to AZ that AC says that the ticket needs to have a printed date and that as you are flying in Business Class, you want the tickets reissued properly into tickets that didn't have stickers on them.

Onus is on AZ for refusing to help you... and it was their ticket , for G*d's sake! Why wouldn't they reissue the tickets?

I think you meant to say that although the flight was on AC, your ticket has a UA flight number right?

Right, the reasons why I involved UA:
- AC did not want to sell me new tickets.
- AZ did not want to sell me new tickets.

and two more reasons:
- I had a valid ticket with UA. That means that UA would have earned the revenue for my ticket if they had sent the ticket coupon to AZ.
- I wanted to have exactelly the same flight as on my tickets from AZ. I believe this makes it easier to proof that I was refused to check-in.


I did indeed try to solve the issue in a politely manner with all three airlines at EWR but none of the agents gave me a hand to solve the problem.

As for the sticker thing: I often travel with stickered tickets and I was never refused. The more it is to say that stickering is common policy in Europe. They may have re-issued the ticket if I had changed the whole routing but I did the change en route. Therefore, I strongly believe that:
- AZ in Milan did not make a mistake by stickering our ticket
- AC did wrong by not accepting our ticket (which was with a UA flight number)
- UA did wrong by not helping us. They are next to AC in EWR.

IMHO UA staff at EWR has an attitude problem. Not that anybody in Terminals A or C have great attitudes. That being said they should have tried to help you.

I had a situation where I used UA miles on Swiss and TAP. Out of VCE, TAP showed my res as cancelled. There was NO UA rep and nobody would help me. I had to buy a new tkt from VCE-LIS and was going to deal with the problem from LIS-EWR once I got there.

My situation had a happy ending as another check in agent at TAP said my res was NOT cancelled and I did not have to buy another tkt. So, ended up getting the one I bought refunded.

Bottom line it is very tricky when more then one airline is involved and reservations don't get queued over between carriers. It happens for paid tickets and for free tickets. Annoying in all cases.

The no international stickers policy strikes me as odd -- AZ stickered LOTS of international tickets with the LCA deal (mine being one) and I don't recall ever seeing anything about stickers being invalid or anyone having any discussions about stickers and some of those tix involved carriers other than AZ (in addition to Cyprus Air, that is). AC may have that policy, but the OP says AZ also didn't like its own stickers. Odd.

Credit card charge dispute seems a good alternative. Good luck!

I have flown on Air Canada tickets that were stickered without issues. Maybe this is a new policy?

Actually come to think of it, on a more recent flight I changed the date of my flight and went to the AC desk to ask for a sticker for my paper ticket. I was told that I didn't need one, and everything was OK. :)

Sounds like the LCA "deal" gone bad, is it?
They "found" the deal here? Lurker?
It's all FT fault, damn us!

[QUOTE=Bluemoon Lady;6890910]We had a horrible flight experience with United/Air Canada and Alitalia.

... The return flight was changed by Alitalia in Milan, updated in both the Alitalia system (for MXP-EWR) and the United stystem (for EWR-YYZ).

QUOTE]

I think part of the problem is identified in your first post. You said AZ updated their system and UA's system. That's all good, but apparently they didn't update AC's system, and since you were flying on AC (not UA) it's important their system is updated. Not your responsibility, but my guess is that this contributed to the problem.

Your recourse should be with AZ, since they stickered the ticket and made the changes. I would send a detailed letter, explaining exactly what happened including names of people you spoke with. Stick to the facts, don't exaggerate, include supporting documents, and ask specifically for reimbursement for the UA tickets you purchased.

I don't think you'll have much luck denying charges on your credit card. As far as UA is concerned, you purchased a ticket with them, and flew on the ticket. IMO they will see the AZ ticket as a separate matter.

Ooh, that will be difficult I guess. Getting money back from Alitalia :confused:

Our reservations were also in the AC system. The problem was one woman at the check-in who did not like our stickers. That's what she said.

Welcome to FlyerTalk, BlueMoon Lady!

I'm going to move this discussion over to the MilesBuzz forum, as it's certainly airline related, but not specific to a mileage run and it doesn't fit into a specific airline's forum.

I have deleted a few posts first -- a reminder to all members that posts are to be on the topic of the original poster's discussion, not your opinion of the poster's other posts or how easily you feel they are fitting into the community.

Thanks,

Dave, a.k.a. dmfriedman
Moderator, Mileage Run

I am sorry to hear this, but what is "sticker"????

I am sorry to hear this, but what is "sticker"????

A sticker is a label with the new date, flight number and airline that is being affixed on the ticket. On the same time, the airline agent also changes the date in his system. That's standard practice with most airlines. I actually know only this way of changing dates.

Even the Air Canada agent said if it would have been a North American ticket, it would have been fine with stickering the ticket - but not for an international ticket. :confused: That's a silly argument in my opinion.

Ooh, that will be difficult I guess. Getting money back from Alitalia :confused:

Our reservations were also in the AC system. The problem was one woman at the check-in who did not like our stickers. That's what she said.

Well, actually, it sounds like you need to determine what AC's official policy is on stickered tickets. Not sure how you would do that - perhaps it's on the website, perhaps you'll need to speak with a supervisor. Ideally you want something in writing.

If AC officially doesn't accept stickers, then your complaint is with AZ since they should have reissued your ticket.

If AC does accept stickers, then your complaint is with the AC person at check in who wouldn't accept a valid ticket.

Not fun - good luck!

ic, that is for paper ticket~~

thanks

A sticker is a label with the new date, flight number and airline that is being affixed on the ticket. On the same time, the airline agent also changes the date in his system. That's standard practice with most airlines. I actually know only this way of changing dates.

Even the Air Canada agent said if it would have been a North American ticket, it would have been fine with stickering the ticket - but not for an international ticket. :confused: That's a silly argument in my opinion.

Not that it matters in this case, but I am 99.9% sure that UA will never accept a stickered ticket.

I'm confused by what you wanted UA to do. UA was never your operating carrier, so UA was never going to lift you AZ coupon. UA might have eventually received payment from AC, after AZ paid AC. There was absolutely no way for UA to reissue your ticket that was plated on AZ stock. It was AZ's responsibility to change your ticket in accordance with AC's procedures.

It was an AZ ticket. The EWR-YYZ was on a UA flight number even though aircraft operating was on AC. Check in was done at AC. AC didn't like the sticker on the international AZ ticket. (FAULT LAID WITH AC - because the ticket was not an AC ticket in the first place)

But as your reservation already existed with AC - even on UA flight number, you went to UA to issue you a ticket with the UA flight number as booked.. and travelled on it.

The issue is with AC - because they did not accept your ticket which WAS VALID. You therefore have to get to the supervisor at AC to explain why they didn't accept an international ticket that had nothing to do with AC.. as the ticket was accepted by AZ to be stickered. Just because AC didn't like the sticker policy, but because it was not on their ticket, they SHOULD HAVE ACCEPTED the ticket.

You have to blame AIR CANADA !!!

Credit card company *might* help, though they're much more likely to refuse chargebacks on airlines than on any other category of business.

Would agree with previous posters that it's very hard to get reimbursed for any alternative arrangements you make if they involve someone other than the guilty parties. "Travel ombudsman" columns are full of legitimate complaints where credits or refunds may be offered, but getting anything that involves a cash disbursement for a reimbursement of something is always a much higher hurdle. If you still get the runaround, in fact, it might be a good case to send to Travel Ombudsman in Conde Nast Traveler magazine.

I have been there. Sorry to hear you are there now.

1) write all of it down. ALL details. Do it now because if you don't, you have no reason to complain.

2) make the letter as long as possible so they have to read every word. I have said this in other threads, but I happen to know from a manager friend at a Starwood property that when someone writes in with a big one, they call a staff meeting to actually sit and reveiw it, and then someone is assigned to 'own' that problem and fix it! that is what you are striving for here. No more "call the other guy"

3) send copies to every involved agency, airline, etc. Send to the credit card you used to book this and dispute everything too

4) include copies of all tickets, passes, etc. include all details about you or any other passengers traveling with you.

5) explain that you were a victim of thier problems, not yours, and then in the end of your 'novel' you must ask for compensation. Do this by saying something like this:

I would have liked that no problems happen on my travels and then I would be happy to fly you again. however, this will take some convincing and so if you do agree to compensate me, I would prefer to have this NOT in the form of vouchers or coupons that cannot be transferred or that can not be redeemed online. I would like to chose for myself how I spend my time and money and so I would like to receive a check, miles or credits with your airline that can be used for anything you do, including booking fees, taxes and online use.

6) be sure to include every receipt or cost you have had associated with this horror and then demand compensation for that as well.

I know it is a lot of work but I once sent 'packets' to 3 departments at United and to dispute all charges on my credit card by writing it to them too, as well as the better business bereau and the attourney general for a very similar problem. All I wanted was my money back for the newly booked flight they forced me to buy. I ended up with 4x that. :D

7) indicate your frustration and demand personal responses, not just form letters. If you get one, climb further into it and find the people on top! BUT be sure to lace your communications with all of these places with hints that you WOULD like to continue to do business with them IF they fix this stuff for everyone, not just you!

8) I must stress that this must be hand written or typed. DO NOT JUST email it only.

I would, however, email it, fax it, AND mail it to every department of every airline involved to FLOOD THEM with the experience!

IT IS SERIOUS, NO?

good luck!
;)MM

PS Rusty C is correct. Here is a lilnk to an example of that Magazine's Ombudsman section but in order to write to THEM, you must get a copy of the mag to find the address and also, they only do short letters, I think. But they do publicize the issue, which can be helpful! They have credibility too. Still, write LONG letters to the other parties.

http://www.concierge.com/cntraveler/traveltips/detail?articleId=10462

It was an AZ ticket. The EWR-YYZ was on a UA flight number even though aircraft operating was on AC. Check in was done at AC. AC didn't like the sticker on the international AZ ticket. (FAULT LAID WITH AC - because the ticket was not an AC ticket in the first place)

But as your reservation already existed with AC - even on UA flight number, you went to UA to issue you a ticket with the UA flight number as booked.. and travelled on it.

The issue is with AC - because they did not accept your ticket which WAS VALID. You therefore have to get to the supervisor at AC to explain why they didn't accept an international ticket that had nothing to do with AC.. as the ticket was accepted by AZ to be stickered. Just because AC didn't like the sticker policy, but because it was not on their ticket, they SHOULD HAVE ACCEPTED the ticket.

You have to blame AIR CANADA !!!

Thank you Guy Betsty for your helpfull advise. If UA is not willing to give a refund (I already compalined to them) I will eventually blame AC.

IT IS SERIOUS, NO?

good luck!
;)MM


Marathon Man, also many thanks to your kind advice. It is indeed serious. I am ~ 1700 USD short now and still hold the valid AZ ticket which, of course, I don´t need anymore :mad:

Marathon Man, also many thanks to your kind advice. It is indeed serious. I am ~ 1700 USD short now and still hold the valid AZ ticket which, of course, I don´t need anymore :mad:

cheers!!

I would fire off your (longgggg *& involved) complaint to AIR CAN now. Don't wait for the others to deny you and make you start over again or give up cuz you misplaced something by then anyway or the dog ate your stuff, etc. Make all of THEM work it out while you have to wait anyway. Make this be a project you get done before 2006 ends and make 2007 be the year that they sort it out and give back your money. If you feel weird or crazy doing this, then maybe the $1700 should be given to someone with more to lose. I'd lose it if they took MY hard earned money even if I were richer!

Besides, if you get denied by one airline now, the other may attempt to use that against you, and so on... Consider this thinking: When you watch the popular cable TV show Law & Order where Jack McCoy, the NY Cty DA, says, "Well, if the other country's court finds him not guilty, the defense could try to argue that it is now a matter of 'double jeapardy' when we finally get him expided back to the United States, and a jury may be swayed by that decision and find him innocent here..." Now, think like him and don't let that even be an option! (they eventually lured the 'perp' to NYC and THEN bagged him here first! hehehe. Do that!)

Maybe you don't watch that show, and obviously, dealing with an airline CS complaint is hardly like going to court for murder, but hey, that's a freaking lot of money there! If this were one of his cases, you can bet they'd go after every angle til the episode were over. I have only seen him lose a few times.

FIRE AWAY! Fire a lot! Do it now!
good luck!

happy new year. :)MM

Thank you Guy Betsty for your helpfull advise. If UA is not willing to give a refund (I already compalined to them) I will eventually blame AC.You cannot actually blame AC directly -- you have to blame UA, and UA will, in turn, blame AC:

You had a contract with AZ (for your AZ-coded flights). You also had a contract with UA (for your UA-coded flights), where AZ was acting as an agent for UA. Lastly, UA had a contract with AC.

KVS could be right but I still would blame everyone.

Why not? Are you lookin' to 'save face' and not appear weird when writing 5 big letters and blaming all parties for trying to get your money back, or do you want your money back --and when you are done then maybe they will have learned how to not screw people who end up in your shoes next time on those airlines?

I say make THEM work with one another to sort it out FOR you.

Look, you are out $$$$$. You don't get PAID to sit there and sort it out. They do get paid to work on this stuff, or at least they may more than you ever would. RIGHT???

Think of it this way: When you call a CSR to complain about this sort of thing, that person is getting paid a wage to sit there and hear it or put you on hold. Do you get paid? NO! YOu have to waive off lunch plans with co workers and friends, or hope the boss doesnt get annoyed at you for being on the phone for a frustrating 45 mins or so every day trying to sort out personal stuff while at work. Heck, you could LOSE OUT EVEN MORE in that case! (It's stuff like this that sometimes makes me think they mess up on purpose cuz they figure 90% of us are too busy to deal with it so we let it go)

As far as the customer is concerned, everything should have gone seemlessly and it failed horrbily. How or who is less important than the fact that you are upset now because of 'them' and you are out the money. They are not out the money, you are. Dont forget that.

Whichever person or company or whatever is hardly your concern to 'own.' Oh it is in a way, because this happened to you as a test to see how you handle potential problems in airline customer service hell, and only the strong survive, but you see, if you let them dictate who you should deal with and who you must do XYZ with, then YOU are doing all their leg work for them! that's part of the test. Don't fall victim to it.

(ok, some of that seemed a bit out there but seriously, I think problems happen to everyone. It's how they (A) get dealt with and (B) get fixed that make that person be better off for next time and make that business be something I would work with again. When this crap happens to me, I can cross off companies from my world of commerce. Someday ask me why I dont do anything with Amazon, for example. I'm only one guy but the message is being sent and it must be by us all when this stuff happens to ya!)

In cases such as these, I find if you fire away at everyone, they feel the best way to put out the wild fire is to settle it between businesses and get you off their backs! You gotta find the top men/women who make decisions and in my fights I have often done this. You also want compensation over the amount lost because of all the crap you have to deal with and all this stress and waiting.

i once disputed a charge to my credit card that was supposed to come with some sort of bonus or extra service. The item shipped to me fine but since that bonus or service did not come, I claimed that the "item" was not what i paid for and was the same as an incomplete or wrongly packed shipment. They agreed and I eventually got both the bonus and some money back on it. I would have taken only one of these but hey, by the time it all came to fruition, I kinda felt I deserved that extra! I even told the CC but the CSR there said, keep it sir, you went thru enough but thanks for being honest. Plus it's too hard to put it back and claims under $2,000 are often 'swept under the rug' as it were, and that's cuz it is a lot easier for big corporations in such cases.

That ALSO being said, if yours is, they should have NO problem giving you your money back! Start with your card used to buy these tix.

:)MM

AZ sold the ticket and collected the money. Az changed and stickerd the ticket. So if any money needs to be returned it needs to come from AZ.
You re-purchased tickets from UA so they won't refund that part, your refund has to come from your original ticket which was bought through AZ.
The big problem that eventually caused a problem was AZ stickering the ticket, so they should have sorted it out with AC or UA before purchasing new tickets.
So in my humble opinion you need to deal with AZ who sold you and changed your ticket.

This whole story is soooo frustrating! UA and AC say they have nothing to do with it. I don't have any idea what AC is getting at. UA, on the other hand, says that AZ must refund me regardless who made a mistake. AZ, on the other hand, did not answer at all. To make things worse: Diners does not want to help me. That't the worst part in the whole story. What now?

This whole story is soooo frustrating! UA and AC say they have nothing to do with it. I don't have any idea what AC is getting at. UA, on the other hand, says that AZ must refund me regardless who made a mistake. AZ, on the other hand, did not answer at all. To make things worse: Diners Club do not want to help me, i.e. disputing the charges with my cc did not work. That't the worst part in the whole story. What now?

I had a very similar situation on NW/KLM pre 9/11 BOS-AMS-LIN-AMS-BOS(thought stickers werent allowed any longer by the FAA...:confused: ).

The lady at the NW counter just slapped on a sticker upon me checking in in BOS while I asked to date change my return by one day earlier. She goes no problem and bam here I had this stock with a written sticker n it.

inbound @ LIN KL counter no prob and said I have to re-checkin @ NW due to sticker, but I knew once i got to AMS that there were going to be issues. @ AMS they said no can do giving me the most bogus excuses, implying i stickered this thing myself. Long story short I went into downtown AMS visited some friends and hanged out for one day and got on to my "schedule, pre-sticker" flight as NW saw it...

Funny thing is that on another NW BOS-AMS flight a few months later I recognized that lady that put the sticker on and once I explained her my story that it was thanks to her, she fumbled and initially recognized me and then she did a full 180 degrees saying she doesnt remeber a thing and that she would have never done... that.

If I were you I would take it up with AZ, but my guess is that you are SOL bcs they will claim that its not their fault AC doesnt recognize this and that its your responsibility for a reissue vs. sticker. IMO you should have taken it up there at the moment with a supervisor, however a nice letter to the BBB explaining your case in laymans terms might get you somewhere... sometime.

BTW, have you ever heard that AZ is the most incompetent airline in the world? (having lived in MXP for 20yrs you can take my word for it....)

AC say they have nothing to do with it.That is, technically, correct -- as I explained in my previous post, you cannot claim anything from AC directly.

UA, on the other hand, says that AZ must refund me regardless who made a mistake.That is partially correct -- AZ would have to issue the refund, but only once UA authorizes it.

AZ, on the other hand, did not answer at all.Replies from AZ may take many months to come ...

What now?You need to be persistent -- keep contacting AZ and UA ...

...and they all wonder why some passengers are unhappy!

Did you call, email or write them all a long letter that you certified mailed with copies to all parties?

This will all take time--your time--but in the end, persistence and thoroughness will prevail on your side!

Now include Diners. Write the letter and make it about 10 pages long and send it to these parties, with the CC at the bottom to 3 more I will mention:

United
AC
Diners
BBB in your state

CC to:

The local police of the city where each airline does business--just to file a report

and the attourney general or consulate general of the area in which you live.

OK, I know this all SOUNDS crazy but if you want your money back, you need to do overkill in order to get something.

the cost to you?

time, frustration, letter writing, thinking about it, embarrasment, worry, stamps and overnight mailings, calls, faxes, etc.

The demand to them:
FULL reimbursement in the form of cold hard cash or e vouchers that can be redeemable in anything and with any traveler, OR miles that would make YOU satisfied to travel with them again.

I would also seriously consider paying a visit to a desk agent manager of BOTH airlines some evening at the airport and giving the letter to them as well, and then take their name but try to find a friendly ear right at an airport desk who could possibly give you something on the spot. When my United problem happened years ago, I got vouchers from a desk AND from corporate, plus my CC eventually reversed all charges.

With Diners I would explain that you feel duped and frauded. Go on that angle. After all, from the customer standpoint, all policy asside, you were put into a situation where your control was stolen from you and they then took your money using tactics that you cannot understand.

Push this harder or you will lose!

good luck. keep going.
be consistent and detailed. Make THEM have to sit down and take you seriously in reading a huge letter!

MM!

diners club wont let you dispute the charge??

Why wouldnt Diners Club simply refuse to help? I would imagine that they would atleast look into the problem. Thats why I love Amex.

by now the OP has done what I suggested and written a book to everyone involved. Not that my way is the only way or the best one, but it has worked for me every time and it's worth every effort.

As well, the amount of time we have all discussed this would be far less spent on the OP doing this work. Then, we'd just wait to hear what happened and maybe, just maybe, all parties involved would also learn and apply some lessons learned from the experience as well.

I have faith it will work out--but the OP must push hard and write a lot. Trust me, it works.

:)MM

Diners does not want to help me.

I would dispute the charge for the original ticket purchase. "I bought these tickets, transportation was not provided, I want a refund." Whatever amount you spent to correct the problem is irrelevant at the outset.

diners club wont let you dispute the charge??

I called them twice and wrote them four times with several copies of all the tickets etc. but they are ignoring me. No answer, no cancellation nothing nada rien de tous! :mad:

call account services or whatever citi calls it and tell them to dispute the original ticket purchase..

by now the OP has done what I suggested and written a book to everyone involved. Not that my way is the only way or the best one, but it has worked for me every time and it's worth every effort.

As well, the amount of time we have all discussed this would be far less spent on the OP doing this work. Then, we'd just wait to hear what happened and maybe, just maybe, all parties involved would also learn and apply some lessons learned from the experience as well.

I have faith it will work out--but the OP must push hard and write a lot. Trust me, it works.

:)MM


Marathon Man, it doesn't work.



United answered more or less like this:
"Sorry, there is nothing we can do. After reviewing your complaint, we figured out that the ticket was bought from Alitalia. Therefore, Alitalia must give you a refund, even if United did some mistake. This is a final answer" :mad:



Air Canada answered more or less like this:
"Our staff in EWR did right because the one way ticket for you journey between Newark and Toronto is more expensive than the ticket of the full journey that you had".

Sorry AC guys but I don't get the message. What are Air Canada getting at?

I wrote back to AC for clarification but no more answer from that side :mad:



Alitalia did not answer at all! :mad:


Diners Club: See my last post. No answer at all! :mad:



I.e. all the involved partners ignore me, do not read my letters nor do they present the letters to the top management (to whom I addressed the letters).



Is there are lawyer in the forum? What are my rights? How much does it cost to take a lawyer and sue the airline(s)? Is there a consumer protection organization in the United States to whom I could address my problem?

They just play one on TV, from reports I have heard.

Probably not a good carrier to fly.

I would do the following:

1. Write the long letters as above to all airlines and cc the Conde Nast Ombudsman
2. If you have a lawyer friend, have the lawyer send a simple letter on letterhead to all 3 demanding restitution
3. Dispute the charge with the CC company
4. CONFERENCE call all 3 airline CSAs. Refuse to hang up until they resolve it. If one blames the other, etc, they will have to resolve it amongst themselves. Sit back, record the call, and have fun. If this works, the above 3 will be moot, so consider trying this one 1st.

If it doesn't work, send the tape of the call to the CEOs of all of the airlines. They will likely be embarrassed for putting you through it all.

Now get the BBB and the cops involced. I am sorry nothing is working--and I do not doubt the OP for trying... Just keep trying and show them you intend to take this to the Nth degree--keeping record of all time and expense you suffered. You WILL eventuallt run into the reasonable person and you will win.

write more. certified mail. :)

PS i am a notary. We will send witness statements.

I called them twice and wrote them four times with several copies of all the tickets etc. but they are ignoring me. No answer, no cancellation nothing nada rien de tous! :mad:

Is your Diners Club account Canadian or USA?

You know what else??

I for one would GLADLY take a moment out of my day to CALL them on the behalf of the OP provided I have all the details and am given an OK to do this by the OP. If we all did that, they'd maybe start to listen! This is posted in a public, well known travel forum and everyone in here could be a potential plus or minus for business in their eyes... That is, if they were to find out about us.

;)MM

Any takers?

OP: Pm me. Let's see what could happen!

Is your Diners Club account Canadian or USA?

Neither US nor Canadian. It's a European one. Whenever I had to disput a charge with American Express, they removed the amount within 24hrs from my account. Diners, on the other hand, ignores me. They simply don't do anything. I always thought that Diners is a professional company. I might be wrong in this point. My lesson: Next time I will pay with Amex.

Your dispute appears to be with Alitalia, so it is probably to your advantage if your card was issued in the European Union. I hope you have followed the EU procedures for disputing the original ticket purchase, and will contact the appropriate consumer protection authority in the country where your card is issued if Alitalia and Diners Club are unresponsive. I do not see any basis to dispute the purchase of the replacement tickets because you received the transportation that you paid for, and now seek reimbursement from Alitalia due to their error.

What kind of EU procedures exist in this field?

Unfortunatelly, I cannot disput the original ticke purchase becasue of several reasons (e.g. one can only dispute charges until one month afer one got the credit card statement.)

I am a USA citizen and do not know the details of EU consumer protection, but I would start with a site like this one...

http://www.euroconsumer.org.uk/index.htm

There are English, French, Italian, German and Spanish versions.

What kind of EU procedures exist in this field?

Unfortunatelly, I cannot disput the original ticke purchase becasue of several reasons (e.g. one can only dispute charges until one month afer one got the credit card statement.)

I once got double charged for a large Jewelry purchase overseas made with a Diners Club card. It was quite a long time after the purchase date (don't know how many days after the bill, which was delayed for awhile before it appeared on my statement as I recall), I had no problem disputing the charge, but it did take Diners Club several weeks to get it completely resolved. I was told on another occasion that I could dispute charges up to several months (at least 3, if not more) on a credit card (that wasn't Diners Club - but isn't the law the same?

I agree that, if it is worth it to you, that this more than likely can be resolved eventually without reaching the point of accumulating alot of legal fees, but it may take a significant investment of your time. I see one problem you are having is getting frustrated too easily (not that I wouldnl't be tempted to go ballistic in the same situation). E.g., regardless of what anyone told you, you should have sent a letter disputing the original ticket charges to the CC company and copy the airlines as soon as you had the ability to do so (or did you do so?). Such a letter, documenting the situation as close in time as possible to when this injustice occurred, would be a valuable asset to have as you pursue this. You can't dispute the walk-up ticket charges directly, but those charges you should get reimbursed for - eventually. You do have to get the interested parties talking to each other one way or another.

What kind of EU procedures exist in this field?

Unfortunatelly, I cannot disput the original ticke purchase becasue of several reasons (e.g. one can only dispute charges until one month afer one got the credit card statement.)

Europe has Socialism where everyone is supposed to be fine and there are no problems, so they have no complainers and when they do, they act like they dont.

:D

OK that statement was silly, but hey, some of it could be partly true in some areas.

Anyway, I think you could consider this:

Diner'd Club itself--no matter where your card originated from or was issued, is headquartered in the USA. This is from their ABOUT US part of their website and the first few lines on the page tell us who you should start writing to once more. I typed "diner's club card head quarters" into Google.com and it came up as one of the top links shown:

http://www.dinersclubus.com/dce_content/aboutDinersClub

Diners Club is a premium global brand with a rich heritage as the world’s first charge card and is issued today in more than 200 countries and 70 local currencies. Diners Club in North America is owned by Citigroup and is a key franchise within the Diners Club International network. Corporate headquarters are located in Chicago, Illinois.

Heck, you could even do a MR to CHI town and go have a lil chat wit da mang!

I would write the North America office via Citigroup because even as your card was issued by Europe, Citi is a HUGE company that could certainly strong arm on your behalf should you run into a few reasonable ears on this side of the pond. With a little digging, hey, maybe you find that Diner's in Europe is run by some other world bank that you can better reason with. It's worth snooping around from that vantage point, I think.

AND if you happen to have OTHER citi cards, decent payment history on ALL your cards and you explain the entire story to them, I bet this will help you!

Find not just the people who run the front of the store you are complaining to, but also the investors and the people with the MONEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

good luck! Keep going!
:)MM

...typing THIS into Google.com gave me another link:

"diner's club card european head quarters":

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2000_June_6/ai_62512342

the first lines of text when you see relevant links in Google are as shown, so start asking THEM too:

Diners Club Italia Selects Captura Expense for Global Travel ...Captura's European headquarters are in London, UK, with an additional European ... Diners Club, the first company in the world to launch a credit card, ...

(I noticed the name Italia. Maybe THEY can help with Alitalia airlines too? If not, go after Captura's European headquarters are in London, UK. they speak the same language as you and I)

MM

What a challenging problem you've come up with here, Bluemoon Lady. You solicited opinions, here’s what I think:

You haven't got a claim against the credit card company in question, regardless of jurisdiction, as you purchased and used a ticket -- a separate and successfully completed transaction.

I think the core of your problem is that United and Air Canada did not recognise the ticket AZ sold you. Thus the problem lies with AZ, from whom you contracted carriage to Toronto, carriage that they and their partners were unable to provide.

You purchased, in essence, a defective product. Or if you like, they corrupted the product with stickers in Milan. The core issue is that AZ staff in EWR did not re-issue a ticket when it was evident that it would not be valid on partner airlines.

As the contract was with AZ, the damages also rest with AZ. The damages are composed of the cost of re-purchasing tickets on United. Unfortunately, these damages are greater than the original price of your ticket, and thus a dispute of the payment for your original itinerary is out of the question. This would have been the easiest path, as you would have had the help of a credit card company.

As I see it, you need to contact AZ for compensation. If consumer advocacy fails, you will need to file a claim for these damages in small claims court, preferably in a jurisdiction where they carry out business. It is unclear where you are located, or where you were when purchasing the tickets. For the money, it would seem to be worth the effort.

Just my 2 cents. Perhaps if you have a moment, you could clarify what happened with AZ in EWR, and what they have said to you since. I’d be curious…


Finally, Marathon Man, please, please, please take a vacation from this thread for a few days.

Finally, Marathon Man, please, please, please take a vacation from this thread for a few days.


Wrightbrother,

your assessment of this is very good indeed. It makes sense and it is clearly written.

I know sometimes people think THAT is the ONLY way to do things or get results. But OP has been trying many things, and the clean, politely written method is not working.

Now I can assume that you really don't MEAN to say anything mean, but please don't tell me or anyone to take off from the thread. My efforts are given with as much intent to help as anyone else's. OP may be frustrated at this but if anything, we are all sharing our own ideas out of complete passion and understanding of that sort of frustration! I dealt with a very similar situation in my own flying experience and it took me MONTHS to fix it and I was pretty upset. I too often wanted to shun some ideas I heard along the way but in the end, it's a good thing I took tips of all shapes and sizes from people who chimed in.

I think, based on your post, ANY ticket involved with this purchased with that card should be considered refundable because, as you said, the OP purchased a defective product.

Now maybe I am wrong about some things, and maybe my methods leave more paperwork or more smears on the walls, as it were, but please, please don't tell me or any poster for that matter that it's not good to TRY to help out here. I am sorry if my words or my 'overly enthusiastic' sometimes radical ideas may make you roll your eyes like that caveman in the Geiko.com insurance ads that have been on TV all over the place, but on the other hand, I cannot appologize for being me and trying to keep within the spirit of FT by sharing/debating thoughts for all to hear. I know mine is not the ONLY way to do things. No one's is. If the OP did not want to hear multiple opinions, the OP would not have posted in a public forum with over 129,000 members on it from all over de wereld. This stuff IS frustrating enough for all of us customers. Let us not, therefore, argue and bicker amongst each other if we can help it.

OP can, as can anyone else, decide what to read and use, and what to skip over.

I have no intention of being in any online fight with any poster and so I will not take your final words of your post personally, but dude, asking someone--or rather, telling someone to take off from the thread is kinda not cool. So like let's drop that idea and carry on.

I will, however, obviously hear the replies and ideas of all others who post, just as you do.

thank you. Now I for one am glad that is past us. :)^

:)MM

The OP's situation is complicated enough already. While I am sure that everyone meant well, preposterous advice, such as the suggestion to "write [a] letter [..] [to] the local police" has a bigger chance of helping the writer gain admittance to a mental institution, than helping them to obtain a reimbursement that they seek. Irrelevant advice, such as making references to the "FCRA" isn't helping either...

wrightbrother's assessment of situation is correct, except that there is a somewhat complicated agency relationship issue between AZ and UA that I have previously mentioned:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6914132&postcount=26
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7108715&postcount=32

Bluemoon Lady: Which AZ office did you send your letter to?

...and yet, I am not in any institution and I have NEVER lost ANY "case" against anything any airline has ever done wrong on my travels.

NEVER. (and I dont like to brag;))

I find that today's airline industry itself is like a big child with a rather fragmented and paranoid, psychopathic, obviously greedy and stubborn mindset. It operates with one hand not knowing what the other is doing and then swats the hand that feeds it at the same time. Those here who somehow do not yet agree at least in part with that are either lying, denying or lucky as can be!

I find the issue of stickering to actually lye in the fault of the person who put it on the tickets. It may have worked in the OPs past but I have yet to NOT run into some problems when such things happen to me. Call me what you will, but if you were to find out who that agent was by name, when they worked, or perhaps just by a physical description combined with date and time of travel, you could probably help this along even further.

Think about it: standing there, out $1700USD and counting, alone and powerless, able only to shoot in the dark with one thought in mind: "I want my Effin !#*!*# money back!" Excuse me, but I tend to think the OP might be so inclinded to "sue everybody," as the comically known Jerky Boyz once quipped in a popular recording. They made money for doing skits like that too, and did not end up in a mental institution either. :D

I get the impression that some here don't want to get their money back when someone takes it from them and they actually think these people want to give it up without making you work for it! Oh sometimes it's the right thing so they comply, but in complex 3-way cases such as these, they DO NOT!

I thusly stand by my proven method (honestly, only used IF I run into equally obtuse airline buck-passing as was the case here) because if you write enough letters and get everyone into the game, SOMEONE is bound to listen and you WILL get your money back. Most likely, even MORE in return (maybe by the way of future travel vouchers, even if you don't set out to get them right now) In this process, who will commit you to an institution other than those who did not believe you until you showed them the check?

Why would this desire to WIN IT BACK be wrong no matter what the method in this case?

Gotta go. OP asked to email with me
;)MM

...like a big child with a rather fragmented and paranoid, psychopathic, obviously greedy and stubborn mindset. It operates with one hand not knowing what the other is doing and then swats the hand that feeds it at the same time.

The airline industry isn't the only party that can act like this...
As I'm pro-civilisation, I don't advocate suing everybody.

AZ is the ticketing carrier....they are the culprits. AC is the operating carrier that will get 98% of the $$ for that leg. A person ALWAYS checks in withthe operating carrier, unless you are on an inbound connection, where another carrier MAY be able to check you in for multiple airline legs. Since this was an origin part of a leg, no other carrier could check you in other than AC.

UA had nothing to do with this other thnan as a "marketed carrier" that you did not purchase your ticket on. You purchased it with AZ for travel on AC. UA has nothing to do with it other than someone who you can a) accrue miles on, and b) might get a small "commission" from AC for being the marketed carrier.

I'm glad UA was able to sell you the ticket, but the battle will bewith you and AC and AZ. AZ should have reissued the ticket. "Stickering" is old school and has been eliminated worldwide in many cases, although some intl carriers still do some. If you paid a fee for reissue, AZ should have reissued your ticket.

Intl tickets without proper validated Intl endorsement are worthless to a receiveing carrier as they will not get paid. I don't know if the sticker is a valid endorsement or not...I would tend to think that it is, but there was nothing UA could do as they couldn't check you in to begin with.


Deal with AZ and have them deal with AC.

AZ is the carrier you bought the ticket thru, so their relationship with AC is the weak link here. Sorry that you had to deal with this.

AZ has daily MXP/YYZ direct service, it does not make sense to connect via EWR.

Why did AZ have to "change" the flight itinerary in the first place?

Which was the original EWR/YYZ carrier? Was it AC/UA or some other airlines not mentioned, e.g., AA, US or CO? I haven't had to do it recently but I recall having to switch carrier one time and was told to get the original carrier noted in the coupon carrier box or the issuing airline of the ticket to "endorse" the coupon over to the new carrier. The agent had to mark on the reverse side of the coupon and affixed an official chop.

Sorry to hear your story. Unfortunately, Alitalia (http://www.alitaliasucks.com/) and United (http://www.untied.com/) won the privilege of having their own websites for big troubles with people.
I believe that the only way you might get your money back is involving your credit card company (if you paid by CC). They are powerful enough to deal with airlines and other big companies. Personal experience: my CC company helped to recover 1254,95 U$D when EXPEDIA tried to scam me.

The airline industry isn't the only party that can act like this...
As I'm pro-civilisation, I don't advocate suing everybody.

Same here, and my joke to sue was just that.

I have found, as have many of you, that we often must respond with vigor because these airlines today have all but forced us to act in certain ways in order to get results. Sad but true.

The idea, therefore, is to write the entire saga to everyone and anyone who COULD potentially help, and to weave in inferrences as to why you think that party is an important piece of the pie, and let it fester within all their worlds. This is done so they are each forced to deal with what has just landed on their desk and not push it away because they know more than one party knows about it all, and that everyone has a copy. The outcome is that at least one party will ultimately reward you your money back!

for example:

-write the whole story in minute detail to AZ.
-then to UA, explaining how you think they are involved and how they denied boarding...
-then to AC...
-then to the BBB
to the airport's station manager at EWR and Milan... (nab that stickering agent too!)
-to the credit card--more than one office - us corporate and your hq.
-to file a claim with the police. (why? you were potentially frauded by airline ticketing mumbo jumbo & deceit!)

Be sure to explain in the letter--copied as many times as listed above, that you feel you have been a victim of both neglect and possible deceit, and be sure everybody can see everyone else's name and address. Make sure your story includes all the fluff too, describing, perhaps, things about your tip, who you were with, money, etc. Mention you are no opportunist but that this has gone too far... Play the role of the beaten-down customer who WAS TRYING to just follow all the normal procedures/rules, but they must have a glitch and you got caught in it, not by your own doing--knowingly, that is. Explain all your logical reasoning too and then suggest that THIS is why you think the airlines need a liaison to assist customers in similar situations. Offer to help create the service if they offer to just help you now! Be creative and innovative so the person reading your letter thinks, "well, I aint never seen one like THIS before...^ "

This whole thing could take you maybe 3hrs to do and here's how that time could be spent:...

-reseaching who exactly to write to at each airline/entity, or at least being able to send it to CS management of the airlines

-typing out and filling up the letter, and tweaking it to get the multi pager just right

-going to the post office and making copies of things, tracking all expenses, and sending off the packets.

in a sense, you force them to have to (A) deal with it amongst themselves where as you continuously repeat: I HAVE BEEN PUT OUT $1,700+ THESE EXPENSES in your letters, and that no matter what or how, you are due this money back ASAP. The letter can be craftily worded such that it applies to all parties reading it, but it must be detailed and I suggest it gives ideas as to how YOU would solve it if you were them.

"My family and I would enjoy future travel with a company who, while they may have made such a serious mistake in the past, can show this can be fixed on behalf of doing honest business with its customers. We cannot, however, be expected to do business with you if you cannot help us out of an obvious system glitch in which we found our selves totally caught up with no options or control given through out the process! In short, please do not "pass the buck," rather, please do your part in helping us recover all that we have wrongly lost in this matter"

...You then continue to outline the problem in greater detail than in the original post, and how disgusted you are by being put in the middle of it! ...and toward the end, of course, you want to be sure you get MONEY and not some heavily restricted useless voucher:

"Surely you can now see, based on my detailed recap of this horrid customer experience, that money is in fact owed back to me, plus expenses reasonably used to fix much of this problem completely on my own. I am confident you will assist me, and your anticipated cooperation is greatly appreciated. However, should you comply at this time, I must ask for the reimbursement to come to me in the form of a check that can be cashed by me, and not in the form of vouchers or coupons that force me to abide by any given amount of restrictions or with any fees of use attached. The reasons are obvious, and mainly it has to do with the fact that this very upset customer has every right to chose the carrier/company of future travel completely on my own. I will be informing others such as friends, family, and co-workers, and also, I will be posting this in its entirety on a widely known public travel forum. People will know all about this problem and certainly, it can only be good for everyone's business if the outcome is positive."

Things like the above self-crafted phrases have worked for me. Use 'em if they apply, alter what you will. In fact, I can do more if needed so anyone need help, just allow me to email you other thoughts that can make a letter get heavy.

My marketing manger friend who works for Starwood tells me that any time someone writes in with a long, detailed one, they actually conveign a staff meeting to it down and deal with the bomb. One or two persons then "own" it and they must help solve it if only for PRs sake!! SPG of course is a far more reasonable company than most airlines and I for one have never had one problem worth notinig at any SPG proprty. But the principle remains the same: YOU drive the campaign, not them. Your goal: To get back YOUR money and everything associted with its temporary loss.

I am not here to sue, nor am I crazy. But $1,700+ is enough to take this as far as your writing skills can allow! It's also very much worth all the eye-rolling frustration and a few clenched hours of one's time.

If a poster here thinks it's not, THAT is who this thread is not for. There are so many good ideas on here for the OP, including many of mine. I would like to keep this thread NOT about problems between posters, rather, it should be more about those ideas from every source in here... Radical or otherwise, they can all be possible. THAT is positive thinking.
;)MM

You really should try the 3-way call and put them all on the spot. If it works, it is the cheapest and least time-consuming solution...

I'd agree that calling AZ "customer relations" would likely be useful - it's unlikely the person on the phone (if you can actually speak with someone) is going to be able to assist immediately, but perhaps they can give you the contact details of who you should be speaking with.

I often find that complaint letters are handled much more effectively when they are addressed to the right person, rather than just addressing them to a department or "to whom it may concern"

The AZ website has numerous phone numbers for "Customer relations" in Toronto, NYC, and other cities.

You really should try the 3-way call and put them all on the spot. If it works, it is the cheapest and least time-consuming solution...

I think that's a great idea!!
the only problem --or rather, enlightenment--would be when you have airline A waiting on hold with you for like 15 minutes while you wait for someone at airline B, and airline A actually acts frustrated in having to wait on the line with you :D But seriously, calling them all at once, if you can pull it off and get the right people on the horn, would possibly get it closer to being dealt with.
I agree with the next poster who says that you kinda need to know WHO to talk to and not just send any complaint to the lowest CS level.

Hi all. Here an upgrade on the situation:

After several letters, faxes and calls could finally have my cc company to (temporarily) cancel the ticket fees from United.

The whole case is now with Alitalia's head office in Rome (Italy). They said that they will have to get the money back from United/Air Canada because the original tix was sold on AZ stock.

Will provide you guys with further information as soon as I know more about it.

Advice to all in a similar situation: If you are sure that your tix is valid, simply buy a new one at the airport (preferably from the airline on who's ticket stock the original tix is) and claim the money for the new tix from the original issuing airline back. Also insist on having the new fees cancelled by your credit card.

yes do let us know! hope it works out for you