TalkBoard Topics - My Suggestion

I suggested this in another thread, and I'm afraid it may have been buried in with the other discussions.

Any chance of changing the requirements to start a new thread topic to users with a minimum number of posts?

I just noticed another newbie spammer trying to sell his wares on FT.

This change could go a long way to making the lives of our ever-hard working mods just a bit easier.

Another suggestion was to restrict the ability to post urls to a minimum number of posts, which I would also support, but I don't think it would be as effective as restricting the starting of new threads.

Think of all the spammers that would go away :D

I like your suggestion Mary2e. Who does he think will buy from him since his post is worded poorly?

It's not just him, there's several that I've found in the past. Some are particularly persistent.

I know that the mods do their best, but this would keep them from having to do very much at all to deal with spammers.

What standard do you propose?

What about new posters who show up with an actual, honest-to-god, new question about points, miles, travel, etc.?

The last I saw was 10 posts before being able to start a new thread.

New users who want to start a thread could get an "error" message that says there's a minimum to start a thread and that they could contact a moderator to start the thread for them.

I would imagine this would be far less work than having to suspend spammers & then look for mods of other forums to delete their handiwork.

I do believe in the other thread there were one or two replies to your suggestion and one of them to me represents a big issue that would need to be addressed. If we restrict new members from starting threads then if they have a question they will be forced to either not ask it or to potentially hijack an existing thread to ask it (or search for the answer.) I realize that quite often new member questions tend to be ones that have been asked and answered before, and that this might force new members to actually "search" for an answer before they could ask it. This though could potentially cause a different problem and that is new users must become proficent "searchers" of FT information before they can really get useful information that helps them. Or, based on my previous assertion, they would clutter existing threads with potentially OT to that thread content. I'm not sure that we will have helped matters if either situation happens.

I'm sure there are a number of folks who might think that forcing someone to at least get somewhat familar with the search feature is a good thing, and that is probably a fair point up to a point. But what is that point and does this cross it or not?

Your second proposal of limiting URLs might be a good compromise as there are probably fewer reasons for a new poster to ask a question that requires a URL. But now we potentially limit a new users ability to help answer questions. Quite often I answer with a link to a specific thread/post or even a diffferent website. So the question becomes is the benefit of this limit worth the potential cost?

I don't think we can answer the benefit question unless we know just how much time the mods spend cleaning up after the spammers. There are also the jokers who come simply to post a gripe about a service provider and then disappear. As a matter of fact, the folks at fodors.com often SEND people to FT to complain about something :eek: :eek: So, they keep all the good information to themselves & send the garbage to FT :)

I don't think it's such a terrible thing for a newbie to learn the FT ropes, particularly searching.

If they have a question they can't find an answer to, or have some information they would like to share that hasn't already been shared, a moderator could post the question or comment. I think that's far less a burden than cleaning up the forums.

Without letting anything loose on the exact details, this was one of the things discussed at the recent moderator meeting. The FT tech staff were there and there seem to be some pretty good ideas in place that will be implemented.

If they have a question they can't find an answer to, or have some information they would like to share that hasn't already been shared, a moderator could post the question or comment. I think that's far less a burden than cleaning up the forums.
This also can't really be answered unless we know the amount of effort is involved with moderation of spammers. While you may be right, there will now be more moderator interaction with new members. And even though spammers may be causing a problem today, it may be more limited than having a host of new members sending PMs to moderators.

This also can't really be answered unless we know the amount of effort is involved with moderation of spammers. While you may be right, there will now be more moderator interaction with new members. And even though spammers may be causing a problem today, it may be more limited than having a host of new members sending PMs to moderators.

It is pretty substantial, on average I'd say we see anywhere from 2-10 spammers a day with up to 10 posts. But as I said; the HOM team is aware of the issues and has a package of tools ready to deal with them soon...

From the few mods I've spoken to, well, it's quite a bit of effort. I know that I report at least 2 per month, and that's only from the forums that I visit regularly, which is less that 20% of FT.

I'm glad there's a discussion about it & ideas on the table. ^^

It is pretty substantial, on average I'd say we see anywhere from 2-10 spammers a day with up to 10 posts. But as I said; the HOM team is aware of the issues and has a package of tools ready to deal with them soon...

Wow, I didn't realize it was that many! It really would help you guys if there was some way to deal with this fairly automatically.

Regarding the main topic:

It may sound a bit ironic coming from me, since I'm the guy who keeps raising concerns about threads in Travel Buzz, but I am also opposed to keeping new members from starting threads. I think most new folks come here BECAUSE they have a problem no one has been able to solve and when they discover the depth of knowledge on this site, it really starts them on the right track to become strong advocates and members.

However, a somewhat more conservative approach of limiting the number of threads a new member can start to, say, one a week until they have been around a while, might well suffice.

For some of you reading about spammers, I'd like to share some statistics we have in the admin of FlyerTalk. In mid-2004 we changed technology platforms for FlyerTalk and since then, the new platform keeps track of every single action by the mods on FlyerTalk. In the two and a half years on the new platform, there have been 51,716 actions taken by our volunteers. Of that number, 82 percent - 42,407 - of the actions have been related strictly to spammers and commercial messaging. Spammers here are also defined as members who repeatedly re-register over and over again in a disruptive manner as well as those posting commercial messages.

While most only see these volunteer efforts in a single dimension, I think these stats will impress on you just as they have on me the first time i saw them just how valuable a role our volunteers play on FlyerTalk. And a large majority of the other actions are moving threads to more common forums.

As ScottC eluded to, we are working hard on adopting technology to assist these volunteers in this area without restricting the posting privileges of any of our regular members. We will not let spammers win.

i for one certainly made constructive threads when i was new to FT.. trip reports would be another good example of something a new member might want to post in a new thread.

im very impressed with all the recent forum updates, especially with how large the forums are. ^

im sure the reason the details on anti-bot/spam updates are not being shared is to prevent them from being worked-around by the bots/spammers ;)

If there's a way to decrease the workload on the mods without restricting posting by newbies, I'm all for it ^^.

I'd hope that would also take care of all the duplicate ids taken out by people without a life ;) :) :), but getting rid of the commercial spammers would probably go a long way toward reducing the load on the mods.

What standard do you propose?

What about new posters who show up with an actual, honest-to-god, new question about points, miles, travel, etc.?

Umm, me too.

I'd like to exhaust all possible options before we reach the point of not allowing folks to ask about points and miles, and I've had to blast my fair share of spammers.

Umm, me too.
Ditto, and after Randy's post I agreed that if there is a better way to deal with spammers, I'm all for it ^^

Sounds like everything is in good hands. In fact, I guess this is one of those things where if the new technology works out smoothly , we won't even notice it working. But I'm sure the moderators will. :cool:

What if new members were put "on moderation" (kinda like probation)? All new member posts must be approved by a moderator. After a few posts, after the new members proves he/she is not a jerk, the moderation flag would be removed.

This will of course result in some delay before new member posts hit the forum. No big deal. The tradeoff is it would most of the spam attacks I see in the forums.

It's crucial that the "number of posts until you're off probation" NOT be published, else spammers would figure out they can make five nice posts prior to their next attack. Somehow the frequency of posting should be taken into account. Someone has never posted in their entire life, and now they post 5 times in one minute ... sumtin's screwwwy.

It might be slightly more work on the moderators, but then again it might not. There's a huge difference between "approve this post at your leisure" and "immediately put out the fire caused by a vicious spammer". I think a policy of "new members are on probation" would actually reduce the moderators' overall workload.

I think it's an awful idea (sorry). It's far easier simply to have them wait until they have a small number of posts than to ask each of the volunteers to do something else to keep FT moving.

I think it's an awful idea (sorry). It's far easier simply to have them wait until they have a small number of posts than to ask each of the volunteers to do something else to keep FT moving.

We agree once again :)

I won't make this long. I'm a newbie and I have a very clear idea of what's the primary problem with FT. I don't intend to personally attack any one person or group. I just see the senior people making suggestions that are ridiculous. I've written out a rough draft of my plans that will fix the problems that seem to irk most of the regulars. I also have a solution to the SPAM problem. I'll go into my plan in detail in the next couple of days. So I'll just be blunt right now.

Flyer Talk is a disaster. It is the worst website I've ever visited. It is next to impossible to find what one is looking for. Just open up the "Forum Home" tab and try to see the resulting list of forums with the eyes of a newbie. I had no idea where to post my question today. You have managed to keep up at least somewhat with your frequent flyer/various discounts forums. Even those are convoluted, out of order, not at all inclusive of many airlines, and they're duplicated in several different forums. But at least a determined/experienced person could use them to some degree.

But the rest of your site. The place where all of the newbies are going to try to find answers is indescribably bad. There are no categories that are needed. You've lumped most everything else into 1 or 2 forums. No one knows where to post a question. They give up and leave.

Until my next letter, find someone to help you with an experiment. Tell them to log on to FlyerTalk (which is getting more and more recognition as the premier Airline travel site. You're going to continue to grow) tell them to try to find out which airline has the best ratings for their flight attendants. And then find out the rules on bringing different types of pets on board. Make sure the check the rules for at least 3 separate airlines. Don't help them at all. You'll see what I mean. It's an almost unworkable system, but it's not too late to fix it. The primary fix needed is an entirely new system of categories/subcategories/specific forums. Make it easy for me to ask a question about my profile issues. Like everyone else, I finally just put it in TravelBuzz. Luckily people looked at the "new posts" area, or I probably wouldn't have gotten any help at all.

I hope this doesn't sound angry, I'm excited. I have a lot of need for this type of site. I want it to be the Go To Website for any questions about travel at all. But we've got to make it user friendly. With all due respect and appreciation for all you do to keep this running, David

You have some great ideas, but you fail to consider one thing, this site is the premier site for disucussing miles & points. Everything else, while good, is secondary to that objective.

The questions you want to test with don't have anything to do with points & miles. I'll bet if you tell them to go looking for that information, they will find it quickly & easily.

I have no suggestions for "newbies" however, as suggested in a previous post I have learned to use the search feature and found answers to just about all of my questions without having to start a new thread. As in all sites, if you learn how to use most of the features, the site is more valuable to you.

You have some great ideas, but you fail to consider one thing, this site is the premier site for disucussing miles & points. Everything else, while good, is secondary to that objective.

The questions you want to test with don't have anything to do with points & miles. I'll bet if you tell them to go looking for that information, they will find it quickly & easily.

Hi Mary, I am aware that this is the premier site re:miles/points etc. My main point though is that it is quickly on it's way to becoming the premier site for dining, hotel deals, etc. If we can make it easy to check out every aspect of their trips, they'll not need to go elsewhere. So that keeps the mileage people here.

What I'm discerning from the posts of senior people here is that a majority of the growth you're seeing is coming from others. People like myself who asked around for a good forum to discuss airline issues. For example, if you google in the words "airline forum" FT is the 4th one down. If you google "frequent flyer chat rooms" FT is approx the 10th one down if you skip individual airline and government sites. These are the growing masses. If we make it impossible for them to get their information easily, they will leave quickly and never come back. The vast majority of the flying public are not frequent flyers. They are full of questions of every kind. After I wrote my last posting, I tried to find information on food service on various airlines. I spent more than an hour following the help menu suggestions. I gave up.

I just think it makes sense to redo the homepage. Different colors first of all, brown on brown is hard to read. Then just give them 3 initial choices. One button, Frequent Flyers, will take them to the forums they're used to. From MilesBuzz! down to Discontinued Programs" We'll also include the dining links, technology forum, our communnity, etc. Now the most important button of all for our future.
There will be a second button, "All Airline Questions" This is where we'll need to reorganize catagories, sub-catagories. You know, provide answers to the questions they'll have. No searching. A tab with the current security rules, A tab for every airline, with as much info as possible in there. It will be simple to see if CO offers a meal on their flight, or if they can bring their dog on board. These airline tabs will also offer info on joining the mileage plan and it's benefits. Here we will tie in with the car,hotel,restaraunt benefits of belonging to the mileage plan. Keep it simple. Just enough to entice them to sign up for the plan.
The 3rd button,"Discussion Area" will be the place where everyone can go and join in a discussion, ask questions of the frequent flyers, read posts and threads on specific issues. This is the part that will bring them back. The forums will need to be much more narrow in their subjects, but that makes it easy to follow and learn. This is where all of the "travel buzz" stuff will go, only organized.
You got me talking again. Anyway, that's kind of what I'm thinking needs to be done to retain the lookie-loos and the newbies. I really want to spend some time posting, replying, and reading about others experiences.

Still trying to decide what I think of the rest, but...

Different colors first of all, brown on brown is hard to read.

Brown on brown? :confused:
Are we looking at the same site? It's been blue & white since I joined...

@:-) OK, I don't know what I was thinking.

About the other issue, I have to realize how new I am here. I don't know anyone yet, and most importantly, I don't know what kind of goals FT has. Does is want to continue to be the premier place for frequent fliers only? There is something to be said for a motto of "Pick one thing and do it better than anyone else" A lot of businesses have become very successfully with that business plan. If that's the case, then I need to shut up.

My mind works differently though. I believe this can become the only website people come to when they have travel plans or questions. You guys have such a terrific start. Enormous loyalty from the frequent fliers.
But this site is not prepared to help the unexperienced travelers who seem to be coming here more and more often. I'm not going to address this issue again. I'm too new and after reading my last posting, I'm way out of line with my statements. It's not like I'm an officer or a stockholder.

Do let me leave you with this though. When you have time, try this.

You are a 35 year old woman who wants to surprise her husband on his th birthday with a quick getaway to Seattle. You have only flown once before in high school. Your well traveled neighbor recommends FT. Now, go sit down at your computer and bring up FT. You're going to have to be honest with yourself here. You aren't familiar with FT. You need to leave DFW around AM on 1/18 and return leaving Seattle around noon. See what she goes through just to book the flight. Of course while she's doing that, FT is explaining how with just a couple of keystrokes, she can sign up for OnePass,and get bonus miles just for signing up and she'll get credit for both round trip tickets. She'll be starting with several thousand miles. As she goes to hit the final confirmation button, FT asks if she needs help with a rental car and a hotel. FT shows her only those which Will also give her miles. She picks a car and a hotel, hits the confirm button and the printer prints out a cover sheet with her itinerary, all phone numbers, addresses and directions. It also prints a second sheet outlining what's going on in Seattle that day and the weather forecast for her stay. A rd sheet spits out with packing help. What to bring for the expected weather and a list of most commonly forgotten items. It even recommends she bring a defibrillator for her husband.

Can you do it right now? Of course not. I can't even figure out how to find CO's schedule without posting and waiting for a reply. If I could even find the right place to post. This is what the newbies are going to be expecting. Travel help. That scenario is entirely possible. Travel agents do it all day long. I just think that if you would like to offer the existing FT customers what they know and love AND build the worlds largest one stop vacation planning site AND be the only place people think of if they want to talk with people anywhere in the world via easy to use discussion forums about anything related to travel. from the quickest way to the airport to the best place to get fried crickets in Puckett. I'm stoked up now. Go get them you guys. I know if you guys here at FT pitch this correct to the big shots at WebFlyer, they will go for it in a really big way.

It's been fun tossing this around. Thanks for indulging me. Good Luck

I won't make this long. I'm a newbie and I have a very clear idea of what's the primary problem with FT.
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Flyer Talk is a disaster. It is the worst website I've ever visited. It is next to impossible to find what one is looking for.

You obviously haven't tried hard enough. :rolleyes:

...tell them to try to find out which airline has the best ratings for their flight attendants. And then find out the rules on bringing different types of pets on board. Make sure the check the rules for at least 3 separate airlines. Don't help them at all.

Why do you think they should be able to find this information here? I'm not sure where you would find ratings for flight attendants ... don't much care either. Seems like a very subjective topic regardless. Rules for bringing pets aboard varies per airline. You might be able to find that info here by searching the individual airline pages. Or you might have to check other sources. Just like when researching any topic on the web.

The primary fix needed is an entirely new system of categories/subcategories/specific forums. Make it easy for me to ask a question about my profile issues.

Has it occurred to you that many of us who have been here for years are very comfortable with the categories/subcategories/specific forums as they are right now? What you suggest would wreak havoc with a system that we have all taken the time to learn to use .... just because you don't want to do the same.

Like everyone else, I finally just put it in TravelBuzz.

If it were like everyone else, we would have lots of empty forums.
Perhaps you just need to put in a little more effort to learn your way around FlyerTalk and how best to use it to suit your needs.

Did you read my 2nd letter? I tried to explain that all of the changes I proposed and critiques I gave were only valid if FT wants to grow into more than just a frequent flyer site. If the plan is to keep this THE premier frequent flyer site, then don't change a thing; everybody is happy. I admitted that I didn't know what the FT leaders have planned. If everyone is happy with what you've built and finally reached you goal. I'll shut up.

I was just going with my own way of business thinking, which is to always be growing and expanding with the end goal of dominating whatever it is you do.

If the powers that be have a long term plan which involves evolving this site to be used by as many people as possible for as many different types of travel services as possible, then my letter was correct. On every item. I never suggested changing the experience that the FF's have here.

I'm not going to re-write the letter again. I do just want to address the few things you said to me though.

1. Unless you are here for FF purposes, the site is horrible. Way too many forums/sub forums. The search engine is terrible. That should be updated regardless. Type in "first officer" and you will get every single place that has the word "first" or the word "officer. It's not a big deal to change. You've been around and know where to go. I'm brand new and am constantly searching, so trust me.

2. I was only giving examples of the kind of information that non-FF will looking for if FT is trying to become a site to be used by different types of travelers. Your comment about flight attendants was extremely rude and intentionally hurtful. Why would you say something like that? Belittle my Carreer in front of everybody? I love my job. It's awesome and I'm good at it. It's also important in our business. I've never read a survey of any kind that mentioned the pilots as a reason for choosing a carrier/customer loyalty. Try not to do that again to anyone. It makes you look small.

3. This wasn't about me. Again, It was based on the assumption of an expanding customer base.

4. Obviously I wasn't using the word "everybody" literally. Take a second a go look at the Travelbuzz forum. There are almost 26 thousand threads in there. Perhaps a better example of the need for a more organized forum layout is this. There are 358 threads in the "misposted threads" forum. I'd offer to help but I'm new. You clearly have the system mastered, so why don't you take 20 or 30 minutes and put them in their correct forum.

OK, I'm done with that. You just didn't need to write a letter like that to me. It was a personal attack and uncalled for.

If you read my 2nd letter, it's obvious that I like this site very much and want to do everything I can to help.

As far as I'm concerned this is over and we're fine. Take Care, David

PS. You're knowledgeable enough for me to run this past. I have an idea that might work with the SPAM problem, What if we set up a separate folder for sales. We could promise to leave it in there if they promised not to send it to any other forums. Would that maybe work?

OK, I'm done with that. You just didn't need to write a letter like that to me. It was a personal attack and uncalled for.

Excuse me? Where is this personal attack you talk about? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Your comment about flight attendants was extremely rude and intentionally hurtful. Why would you say something like that? Belittle my Carreer in front of everybody? ....Try not to do that again to anyone. It makes you look small.

Is this it?? I never once belittled your career or said anything rude. I just stated that information on the ratings of FA's is not something I am interested in.

You are a 35 year old woman who wants to surprise her husband on his th birthday with a quick getaway to Seattle. You have only flown once before in high school. Your well traveled neighbor recommends FT. Now, go sit down at your computer and bring up FT. You're going to have to be honest with yourself here. You aren't familiar with FT. You need to leave DFW around AM on 1/18 and return leaving Seattle around noon. See what she goes through just to book the flight. Of course while she's doing that, FT is explaining how with just a couple of keystrokes, she can sign up for OnePass,and get bonus miles just for signing up and she'll get credit for both round trip tickets. She'll be starting with several thousand miles. As she goes to hit the final confirmation button, FT asks if she needs help with a rental car and a hotel. FT shows her only those which Will also give her miles. She picks a car and a hotel, hits the confirm button and the printer prints out a cover sheet with her itinerary, all phone numbers, addresses and directions. It also prints a second sheet outlining what's going on in Seattle that day and the weather forecast for her stay. A rd sheet spits out with packing help. What to bring for the expected weather and a list of most commonly forgotten items. It even recommends she bring a defibrillator for her husband.


So you believe FlyerTalk needs to be yet another online travel agent?

The problem with your comments is that you are coming across as an arrogant know-it-all. I'm not calling you an arrogant know-it-all, I'm just saying that is how your comments are reading to me. You've been registered for roughly a year-and-a-quarter, so you've been a lurker for at least that long, but apparently do not understand the vibe of the FlyerTalk community yet, or how to find and use the information here. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it leads both myself and other members to the conclusion I stated at the beginning of this paragraph.

A good example would be this:

There are 358 threads in the "misposted threads" forum. I'd offer to help but I'm new. You clearly have the system mastered, so why don't you take 20 or 30 minutes and put them in their correct forum.


Misposted threads is used by moderators and administrators. Us peons can't touch the threads in there. :)

On a final note, I saw no personal attack in tazi's comments.

And on a final final note, your comments on search are spot on. ;)

Tazi's comments were not out of line. As a matter of fact, I agree with her. FA statistics isn't something I care about or would ever consider looking for. This is a site for miles & points.

IMHO, you're looking for a fight. At first I thought you were genuinely interested, but I've changed my mind.

My impression of FT is that it is not intended to be an online travel agent and it is not meant to be an all inclusive airline policy database.

It is meant to be a place where people can get together and discuss anything related to airline travel. FT is not geared toward new users, infact there are sections that are not accessible to users until thier post counts are high enough. I personally like it that way, it requires a commitment from the posters to the FT community before they can really utilize FT.

I would stop frequenting FT if 9 out of 10 post were from new users asking what there is to do in SEA in Jan. (The answer is nothing, it's cold and wet;) ) The community here expects users to do thier homework in the usual places (airline websites, city websites, ect.) before asking thier questions here. That way the user becomes more knowledgable and may be able to answer other peoples question who have tried but been unable to find the answers then need.

Though this is definatly not a site just for FF. Insight on the entire air travel process from those in the industry is invaluable. FT is a large site with lots of posts and topics and it is a bit chaotic, but that's just the human factor. After all FT is just a forum where people can get together and chat about whatever for any reason.

Well said, Seattle Flyer.