MilesBuzz! - Grace Makes a Traveler a Guest

I don't quite frankly understand nor value the time investment of people who track their miles to the level and detail that some people (typically, the least friendly) here do.

Thanks to the Hilton Honors program, I have had ten days in the Rainbow Tower (a corner room) at the HHV, and two suites for eight nights at the Conrad in Chelsea Harbour, London -- hosted by the Hilton as an Honors member.

All of these calculations and lectures to people about how they post (yeah, I'm the person who suggested the board lighten up on newcomers) is, to me--absurdly rude.

The real value of a frequent traveler program is to receive rewards for being loyal customers.

I read on another message board (operated by the hotel industry) that the members of mid-level freuqent stay programs tend to be the rudest, most arrogant of all frequent travelers. That the less -- or the more-- one uses the hotel -- the friendlier and more gracious the guest. I believe it. Because that is exactly what I've seen here on this message board.

Loyalty without grace is virtually useless. Anyone can trade. Grace makes a traveler a guest.

I am one that likes to keep track of my loyalty points and lately have been working to take advantage of promotions and other incentives that my FT-addiction has caused.

I tend to agree with you that there are a lot of frequent traveler wannabe's out there that demand this and that upgrade or freebie. I truly believe that niceness gets you far better treatment except for the people that try to take advantage of kindness.

Although I try to be nice to newbies (and I sort-of am one since I'm fairly new to this board) but it really irks me that people start posting when the answer to their question is available immediately by doing a search or even by reading the stickies. Web forums contain such a wealth of information but I find the average web user has no idea that a web forum does not operate like a chat room---all postings are archived and searchable! That is awesome.

That's all I have to say. The only suggestion I have on how to improve this is to implement a 72 hour waiting period between the time one signs up and the time one can post. Many other web forums have done this and the couple that I moderate have great success in reducing the number of unproductive and repetitive posts. People will get mad that they have to wait 72 hours but eventually will learn to search and read the stickies. I would think a newbie rarely has anything urgent to contribute.

Thoughts? Comments? Let’s try to make this thread one of constructiveness rather than just venting. Happy Holidays.

I 2nd the 72 hr waiting period.

I wasn't involved in any run-up tiff, but here are my unsolicited thoughts.

Search isn't perfect, but it's darn good, and should be used to the utmost. With now over 120,000 FTers, it becomes more important every day. Newer members understandably don't realize that. So, how can people (new or not-so-new) know about or learn about the search function? By allowing themselves to be reminded; by being graceful when provided that feedback.

I personally don't knock the person who balances their checkbook or monitors their bank account transactions. I tolerate it, understand it for that person, and accept it. Same with tracking points or miles. Same with staying at the HHV for 10 days or London for eight. That's great that you enjoy it and who am I to question your use or value of your own time?

Sunday, I do hear your message and take it to heart. (I would say that it's every bit a lecture, though--exactly what you're claiming of others recently.) Fact is: industry defines these various programs and gives them structure; it's not the customers defining them. You can be sure that someone from Hilton, Starwood, or wherever has done or should have done calculations, but customers shouldn't?

I'd also assert that this thread has nothing to do with Hilton HHonors and more to do with social graces or the lack thereof, so it leads me to the question as to why it should appear in this forum. If me saying that earns me the title of rude or arrogant, then hand me a badge, too, I guess--but I'm usually labeled a nice guy here in HHonors. Broad shoulders, though.

I am moving it to Miles Buzz

thanks

squeakr
MOD HIlton

ehem...

I kinda beg to differ with the OP a bit and here is some of why... and maybe I go off subject a bit in here but it al comes full circle...

I too think grace is a good thing and trust me I am NOT one of those mean people who thinks I am special just because of miles, status, savvy or the like. I tend to be friendly, open and welcoming, as well as helpful and all that good stuff...

In fact--and this is no 'dis' on status holders or people who just like to keep to themselves and simply TRY do the task at hand without incident--I consider myself to be one of the nice guys who, if anything, tries to be overly friendly to those working in such services as airlines and hotels. I also even think that everyone in this busy world should work for a restaurant at least once in their life if only to see what it's like from that viewpoint!

Nevertheless, my efforts to put forth some form of understanding and compassion for this stuff has not always helped me. I sometimes just try to do what is needed and just be one of the people abiding by policy next in line, and sometimes I try to show that I am here to enjoy the transaction, be it travel or other, and that I am planning on being one of the good guys in the process. I KNOW a lot of the people who work in the services are busy and frustrated and some of them actually appreciate it when you are nice to them and you show it. That's me, but still, I find I am often caught up in the crap despite all my efforts. It's almost even worse!

Yeah, sometimes I find myself being the unlucky sap to step up in front of the very rude and strict airline emplyee who just now had it up to here with everything and is thinking, "the next person who walks up to my counter better just say hello and step aside cuz I am the airline soup nazi!" but then I come up and like drop my ticket voucher by accident and it somehow sets the person off and I am their devil now! Oh wow, does that makes my experience suck from the get go, mate, and then one HAS to be almost pushy to try to get something resolved from that point forward! Even if I did nothing I still can find this happening and one such occasion that still makes me smirk is an experience with united and US Air. I will briefly tell it at the bottom of this message...

Anyway, you asked why people are in here... I first started to check my miles with vigor and near addiction when I one day heard that all the airlines were starting to delete them if you had not flown in X number of years or months. It was United who, despite years of use on the huge carrier, deleted my 18,000+ miles and then BAM! just like that I was thrust into the whole world of "hey hey waitttt a second!!! help me, please!!!"

But hey it was my problem, right? So ok, that's when I said, "well, I had better get WITH IT" and so I joined forums like this one to learn HOW and WHAT.

I still flew various airlines, of course, and found all the problems and service issues that exist in travel. I have been all over the world and while I am not your classic business traveler who does the commute every week or something, I still do fly many trips a year and many of these are with family overseas. Surely I want to find the BEST way to do that and try to avoid pitfalls before they occur! Forums, my friend, are FOR that purpose and that is what the internet has going for it! And because many people share the same problems, which the OP SURELY has had happen in their life, we have FT to help us get thru it all.

I dont tend to blast people who post in here and I think it is silly to do that. Some get off on it and to them I say "go to the back of the plane and eat the left overs" becuase they probably ruin travel for everyone else, but no matter what I try to do about it, these types will always exist so just ignore them and carry on.

But back to the reasons we are here...
I flew, I had questions and I wanted miles to try to save on travel. Now I am addicted. I post here about my own experiences and maybe they help others, and I am happy to say others have certainly helped me!

I tend to be the guy who says, FIGHT THAT PROBLEM if the airline messes up a promotion or a mileage posting, and if there is a customer service issue, I am the first one to find the holes in its process and try to solve it if only to make all our world's a better, more easy place. It's not like I go LOOKING for trouble but I sure do run into my fare share! We find ways to deal with our lots in life or we change/alter them accordingly and whereever possible. It's really all about intent, I think.

I'm not the only one who does what I do in here and I am by no means the best at any of this, but the reason why I am "into" posting on FT and everything is because this happens to also relate to my line of work as a marketing consultant. I am always checking and evaluating customer service and the ways business handles things. I may not post in here with some high-end form of overly verbose professionalism or anything like that, but I have found that the issues often related to miles and travel and other marketing efforts similar it DO in fact affect all classes or service and all levels of society. AND, lately, I find it's not ALWAYS the customer who is mean!

How many of you have noticed a huge change recently in the increased level of 'security meant to better serve you' when you are dealing with companies these days? I have had to go head to head with airlines, banks, phone and internet companies, and even Starbucks on stuff that was at one time really easy to do! grace don't always cut it when THEY treat ya just as some number, even if you just gave them MONEY and a smile!

As for grace and checking into hotels that have a pleasant level of service that somehow makes me feel like the OP just walked out of a 1920's movie setting or something, I think of my early mileage use experiences...

yeah, back in the day--you know--when you could join all the programs and then actually USE the miles to FLY when you walked into the airport and asked what's available, I was a "loyal" customer to various airlines for various uses. I do like places like Starwood hotels and some of the airline experiences I have had have been just fine, but I also find that for every good experience we enjoy in travel, there are tons of botched up reservations, lost luggages, insurance and credit card issues, missing miles and extra fees that could eventually get to anyone.

I try to look for the good in my trips, and whoever said getting there was half the fun must have been a sadist. Now being there is more fun, but yeah I do like getting miles for things anyway! :)


My united/us air problem of a few years ago:

The two airlines were JUST starting to do partnership travel. My wife and I had to go see family in Holland and so we wanted to fly BOS-AMS. This was an interesting trip because we planned to fly separate because she wanted to stay with family a little bit longer and I had to work, making for a shorter trip. Because of the ways the fares happened to be during this time of intended travel, we found her a good flight using United from BOS-IAD-AMS and my trip would be on Us Air from BOS-Philly-AMS. Again, we would come home on different days but were leaving on the same day, with my flight leaving one hour later than hers and arriving around the same time. BTW this was around THIS time of year...

ALL WE DID--and I repeat this as if it were some crime to even ASK... was to say, "hey, if you guys are partners, is there ANY chance we could BOTH fly on that United flight going TO AMS?"

they said yes.

Are you SURE?

Yes.

Ok so they gave me a ticket and i thought they "switched me out" and off we went to IAD.

But in IAD they told me I was NOT on the plane to AMS. now Im stuck in IAD trying to explain the problem had to be with the desk agent in Boston but certainly not with me.

To make a short story shorter, I had to fork over like $2,000 to get on that plane and that was after running between terminals while watching the clock tick closer to our IAD-AMS travel time, and trying to get my ticket "endorsed." I had never heard of this nor did I think it was something I should have to be responsible for, but hey, once you accept or get duped into accepting such a task, you ARE the one to deal with it, like it or not!

Again, $2,000. NOT good. (our original tickets for coach cost like $300 RT)

You ask about GRACE?

Hmmphh! F**K that! That went out the window far before the United desk agent said, and i quote: "hey we are bankrupt sir, I DONT CARE!"

WOW.

Well, in the end, I wrote them a letter about as long as this post and they ended up giving my money back and a few United vouchers that enabled us to save on future travel. This did work but the whole problem took several months to fix.

Now, what was that you were saying about frequent fliers being the rude ones?

;)MM

ive only encountered two complete _____ so far on FT. not bad at all imho. especially seeing as they seem to have a personal problem with me, rather than constantly acting like a _____ .

also re search, for several months after i joined, it was COMPLETELY random when it worked and when it didnt. more often than not, it didnt work at all. it seems to be in much better shape now. lag is way down.

....Snip....

I read on another message board (operated by the hotel industry) that the members of mid-level freuqent stay programs tend to be the rudest, most arrogant of all frequent travelers. That the less -- or the more-- one uses the hotel -- the friendlier and more gracious the guest. I believe it. Because that is exactly what I've seen here on this message board. .....SNIP
[/I]

I am curious as to what hotel industry board you are reading. Are you a member of the hotel industry?
Would you care to share the address of the forum?

I don't quite frankly understand nor value the time investment of people who track their miles to the level and detail that some people (typically, the least friendly) here do.

Thanks to the Hilton Honors program, I have had ten days in the Rainbow Tower (a corner room) at the HHV, and two suites for eight nights at the Conrad in Chelsea Harbour, London -- hosted by the Hilton as an Honors member.

All of these calculations and lectures to people about how they post (yeah, I'm the person who suggested the board lighten up on newcomers) is, to me--absurdly rude.

The real value of a frequent traveler program is to receive rewards for being loyal customers.

I read on another message board (operated by the hotel industry) that the members of mid-level freuqent stay programs tend to be the rudest, most arrogant of all frequent travelers. That the less -- or the more-- one uses the hotel -- the friendlier and more gracious the guest. I believe it. Because that is exactly what I've seen here on this message board.

Loyalty without grace is virtually useless. Anyone can trade. Grace makes a traveler a guest.

Gee, I have been a member of FT since 2004 and I have encountered very few unfriendly posts here. Maybe we don't frequent any of the same boards. I do feel that when a person joins FT that it is that person's responsibility to read the RULES AND GUIDELINES first before posting. Randy put them there for a reason.

I also spend time on Flyertalk and am a points junkie and a lowly one, at that, but that doesn't make me rude and unfriendly.

*shrug* To each his/her own. I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would spend ten nights at the HHV - free or otherwise. (I did an ALON there once. Almost bailed after two nights. Stuck it out for 5, then bailed.) You can't imagine why people would play the points/miles game. Neither one of us is right or wrong....different strokes... :)

I too missed the run-up tiff. I think becoming a real "guest" of a hotel has less to do with your big-chain status and more to do with how frequently you visit that particular hotel and what interactions you have with the people who work there. The bartenders at the Renaissance Seattle make me feel like a welcome guest every time I walk in the place. They have no idea whether I'm Silver, Gold, or Platinum. There's one particular AA counter agent at MCI that is kinder and more welcoming than just about any other agent I've ever encountered, and she can see on her screen that I'm not an ExPlat. It's about how people treat each other more than the status.

By the way, this board is by far the most friendly and helpful of any Internet message board I visit.

*shrug*

By the way, this board is by far the most friendly and helpful of any Internet message board I visit.


oh yeah? well you s**k, dude!

Tee hee hee ;)^ :) :confused: :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: :cool: :p ;) @:-) :D :-: :o :td: :( :)

:)MM

Anyone who ever has trouble getting flyertalk search to respond can go to google advanced search and put flyertalk.com in the "Only return results from the site or domain" field. The results won't be as prettily formatted as flyertalk search results, but it will get the job done. Also, if you know google search syntax, you can do a couple of things with google advanced search that you can't do with flyertalk advanced search.

Anyone who ever has trouble getting flyertalk search to respond can go to google advanced search and put flyertalk.com in the "Only return results from the site or domain" field. The results won't be as prettily formatted as flyertalk search results, but it will get the job done. Also, if you know google search syntax, you can do a couple of things with google advanced search that you can't do with flyertalk advanced search.
I find the FT search function not very useful and wonder if there are ways that I might achieve more satisfactory results. I appreciate your tip about how to use Google to find what one is after on FT. Seems it shouldn't be that one would go to Google to search for what is somewhere on FT, but maybe that more circuitous route works best. How might I learn more about Google search syntax, so I could improve all my searches, FT and other?

Thanks for the helpful advice.

i started saving bookmarks or at least full titles of the FT posts and threads i am into. If I get FT emails into my yahoo account and I know what to look for, I can type it into that search and find any email with its title. then from there I can get to that FT thread again. Yahoo search stinks I think, but at least this works for me.

:)MM

and thanks for the google tips too!
makes sense.

All of these calculations and lectures to people about how they post (yeah, I'm the person who suggested the board lighten up on newcomers) is, to me--absurdly rude.

Can you please explain further why you feel the calculations are rude?

Sunday - welcome to FlyeTalk! :)

I see that your posts so far have been in the Hilton forum giving helpful answers to people's questions. You are the type of NuB we love! ^

I agree that some FTers have made a habit of telling others to search in a less than friendly tone. I still think they need to be directed to search...largely because of the number of posters on FT is far greatly than many boards and because of the amount of time/frequency us regulars visit FT. If the same questions are asked and answered over and over again, FT will become less of the community we want to make it be.

However, I do think more needs to be done in terms of helpful guides. The FT Wikis are starting to catch on. Eventually, each forum should have a comprehensive helpful Wiki with a sticky pointing to it in the main forum.

Our new members need to learn to search and will learn vastly from the experience. I have done tons of searches...and do agree it can be frustrating. I have often found the information turned up (using "Advanced" search - specifying the appropriate forum) is overwhelming...but have also found I can usually modify my search terminology and date range searched until I get helpful results.

Using Google is another option but I have yet to learn all the in and outs of what one can do with Google search.

Essentially, I agree with Sunday that the way things work now, many newbies will perceive rudeness on a regular basis. Not so much because they are told to search but rather how they are told to search.

ok, new tact here, after reading Sunday's posts... Hmmm, let's see, um, maybe just maybe, sometimes the newbie has to like check out the culture of any given forum first, and then try to participate. I say welcome to FT too, mate, and sorry if people have been rude to you, but I often find the truth lies someplace in the middle in such situations... Besides, I described my way of dealing with things in a previous thread but you never replied to any of it to say something like, "yeah, I know what ya mean" or something like that, so is THAT rude?...

Sure, there are WAYS for FTers to respond to posts that generate a feeling of good will and some may not necessarily have that in them as much, but also, the person posting must attempt to present his/her question in a manner that tries to gain the best response possible. I know many FTers may roll eyes when they see the same question over and over, and so maybe we all need to continue to be tolerant, but still... it's a two way street and patience needs to be exhibited on both sides. Maybe Sunday's first few posts were met by harshness, but then again, have I seen anything from Sunday that prompts anything extra pleasant? Not yet.

Nevertheless, this thread has not shown me anything worth continuing on in terms of miles/travel, and I've kinda said my piece about how I handle problems in my own experiences, so I may have to move on and leave this to the rest of ya... Besides, I hate to say it, but I'm beinging to think that some of this rant about people being rude no matter what we do, but never responding as to HOW we actually do it, may just be a way to try to 'get our goat' as it were...

Maybe it's time to ignore?... just a thought. (I have just unsubscribed from this thread now--that is, after some significant edits to this post...)

;)MM

I find the FT search function not very useful and wonder if there are ways that I might achieve more satisfactory results. I appreciate your tip about how to use Google to find what one is after on FT. Seems it shouldn't be that one would go to Google to search for what is somewhere on FT, but maybe that more circuitous route works best. How might I learn more about Google search syntax, so I could improve all my searches, FT and other?

Google Help : Cheat Sheet
http://www.google.com/help/cheatsheet.html

There are sites that elaborate on google search. A search for:

google search syntax

will show you some.

There are also some non-syntactic situations where I prefer google advanced search. For example, if a term appears once in a flyertalk thread that is twenty pages long, flyertalk advanced search tells me only that the term is in the thread, so it can be hard to find the term. On the other hand, google advanced search takes me directly to the page within the thread that contains the term (and if I use the cached page, google will highlight the term).

The couple of lines of context for each result in google help me exclude results that are not what I am looking for. For example, if I am looking for flyertalk posts about Giordano's pizza, I can tell from those couple of lines of context if a post is quoting somebody named Giordano rather than discussing pizza.

On the rare occasions when the flyertalk forums are completely down (not just the search function but the forums as a whole), google can still get you what you need because google has cached copies of the flyertalk site.

As for flyertalk, they use vBulletin forum software, so they are limited to the search options of vBulletin. A few vBulletin search options (such as ordering the search results by the number of replies) are not on the flyertalk advanced search page but can be used by manually editing the search url. However, they seem to be of limited value and I have no idea whether flyertalk wants people to use them, so I am not going to publicize them.