MilesBuzz! - "False sense of entitlement????"

A recent post on the Hilton board related an encounter with Reno Hilton management. When a Honors member insisted that the property live up to its commitments, the room manager commented that "HHonors members continually display a false sense of entitlement." Are we unreasonable when we demand what the various loyalty programs promise us? Its my experience that most times when I ask for an overlooked upgrade or other associated perk, the airline, hotel or car rental CSR has been very accommodating. But there have been times when I've met resistance, and at the Reno Hilton, outright hostility, when I've asked for the program benefits. I'd like to hear comments from other frequent travelers. Thanks

[This message has been edited by bizytraveler (edited 04-13-2002).]

Howdy,

My take is a very new one. I've only been a frequent flyer/hotel/car person for the past 5 months. I'm very new to all this.

The first month or two - (my travel has been very consistant, averaging 1 round trip per week, 3-4 days in length, for the past 5 months).

Anyway - the first two months - I had no status. Now I'm AA PLT, HH Gold (no status with Avis - but I've rented a car from them almost every week).

The changes from month 1-2 to month 4-5 have been nice for me.

Hilton has always upgraded me to at least a suite, always comps me breakfast.

AA now tries to block seats for me, give me an open seat next to mine (last flight - was totally full, I had no ticket on it - gate agent told me to wait, I'd be the last one to board, but she would do what she could. There was only 1 empty seat on the entire plane from LGA-ORD, and it was next to me.) I've had them change tickets on me, check me in at the first class line, etc... They make note of my status (PLT) and have treated me better. Even Avis - now when I ask for an upgrade, I've gotten one every time for free.

It seems to me that being a frequent traveler gives you a bit of the 'inside' track. I've found folks a bit more willing to help me be more comfortable. Most of the time. Cynthia Vaughn a ticket agent for American Airlines in STL being a huge exception, right now I'd like to file a lawsuit against the *****, but that's another story http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Does status make a difference - I think it does. I've also found that most people I deal with upon recognition of my status are more likely to assist me being comfortable than others. However, I do think that with status comes the responsiblity that we as frequent travelers should have some knowledge and understanding of the liability and limitations of those we work with. Flying home from ORD last night my flight was delayed - horribly. A woman (none FF) started berating the gate agent because she didn't notify the people waiting in the gate area sooner. The woman in my opionon was an idiot. The GA didn't know the crew would be

Pakse

Im Platinum Delta... Diamond HHonors and Elite on several other plans.

I have grown NOT to expect ANYTHING. When not offered, I ask. This is a Quality Control issue that the Corporate Offices must address. It is idiots like the guy/gal at Reno Hilton that ruin a program.

Of course, each property is not owned by Corp. BUT they are bound by the same progra,ms as everyone else.

I am not a pig. I dont want more than is allowed. I do want what is in the program. It is a crying shame that I dont expect it as a matter of course.

I'm a Delta Platinum, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, and Avis Preferred Select. My experiences in a little over a year-and-a-half of FF is that Delta lives up to there end of the bargain. I've had no nmajor complaints with getting the stated benefits from Delta. I've earned my Hilton status at one Hilton Garden Inn and have not experienced other Hilton properties yet. The one Garden Inn (Albany NY) has been super in responding to needs and the program guarantees. Avis has been great about providing me with upgrades, sometimes two or three levels above my reserved level. Marriott on the other hand doesn't seem to push their program benefits to their properties. I would say that 60% of the time I have been told that the particular Courtyard or Marriott property I am at doesn't participate in that benefit (upgrades, platinum gift, discount at the gift shop, etc.) And, the way I read their program rules, it looks to me like each property is pretty much free to adhere as they see fit.

my experience with the reno hilton was on a convention rate and they still upgraded my room. no problems. i think the hotel was very nice along with the staff

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f

Great topic!! "False sense of entitlement" who is the Reno Hilton manager trying to fool? Loyalty programs are all about entitlement. I patronize United, Hilton, and Avis to achieve elite status so I can enjoy the promised benefits. Too many travel/hospitality employees forget that in this economy frequent fliers have many alternatives when planning their business travel. Its a two way street -- if the loyalty programs honor their commitments to their members, we'll remain loyal; but treat us poorly too often, we'll switch allegiances to a company which truly values our business. Its that simple.

I will "vote with my feet" if I have to fight to get benefits that were promised (patronizing a program that promises less but consistently delivers what they promise if necessary). I don't enjoy being assertive to get what has been promised to me, so if a simple reminder doesn't work, I usually let the issue slide, but actively consider other options in the future.

There are benefits that a program promises in return for some number of stays/flights/whatever, and there are nice things that happen over and above them.

When I don't get a promised benefit, I ask for it. I have never had a serious argument, though once or twice I've gotten as far as "this is what I'm supposed to get in return for how much time I spend with you folks."

When nice things happen, like operational upgrades, I'm suitably appreciative. I can't stand the "Do you know WHO I AM?" types. If they were all that important, they wouldn't be on a commercial flight or handling their own hotel check-in. (I got one flight upgrade just for being in line behind a few of those and NOT acting that way.)

Ah, yes, the false sense of entitlement. Some folks get a little carried away with things. Case in point -- last night, I had some guy in my place who at 3:10 -- after I'm supposed to have kicked him out and locked the door -- wants another drink. Last call was at 2:30, and if I serve after 3:00, there's a chance of a $5,000 fine.

Anyway, this butthead, who had dropped like $100 or so throughout the night, decides that he wants to ***** and say, look, I just dropped $100 here, you owe me.

I told him, if you want to pay the $5,000 fine, and get me a new liquor license, I'll be happy to serve you. Otherwise, it's time for you to go home.

Some of the complaints I've seen here remind me of that guy. Others do not. I am not quite sure what the Reno Hilton did that pissed you off, but please don't be like the butthead I had to deal with last night.

I think you are entitled to something--there is nothing "false" about it--but it doesn't entitle you to act like a jerk. I thing Efrem's post strikes the right balance.

I think sometimes people are confused by what they are supposed to receive, and what they think they are supposed to receive.

If you patronize a program (hotel, airline, car, Subway sandwhich shop, whatever) which promises you something in return for your loyalty such as a free sandwhich after buying 12 sandwiches, then when you fulfill your part of the deal (by staying 100+ nights with a hotel chain or by buying that 12th sandwhich when you really wanted tacos), you have a right to expect that the company offering the program will uphold their part of the deal and give you that room upgrade or free sandwhich.

But, some knuckleheads get confused between what they should receive and what they think they should receive as is seen by the story provided by mdtondy:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mdtony:
...Anyway, this butthead, who had dropped like $100 or so throughout the night, decides that he wants to ***** and say, look, I just dropped $100 here, you owe me.</font>

In this situation, I am assuming that mdtony never made a deal with the boozer that if he drops $100 in business, then he would continue to serve him booze past last call. The boozer had a false sense of entitlement just because he spent some $100 over the course of the evening. There was not a prior agreement and so there should not have been an expectation of more booze.

When I alter my behaviour (stay with HHonors instead of SPG) because HHonors promises me free breakfast with every stay, then I expect a free breakfast every time I stay at an HHonors property. It is not because of a false sense of entitlement that I want that breakfast, it is because HHonors promised it to me. When a front desk morom then says to me that "oh, we don't do that for HHonors members", then HHonors is not fulfilling their part of the bargain.


[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 04-15-2002).]

I continue to set my expectations low and I still continue to be disappointed in the hotel programs. As a AA EXP, I have zero complaints they have always gone thet extra mile.

Hotels are another matter. As a Diamond in Hyatt, Plat in Marriott and Starwood, there are certain things I am entitled to. Yes as part of the program - ENTITLED. If I did not want those benefits I wouldn't pick the program. I expect that the hotel live up to their part of the program however almost evey stay is a battle and I'm getting tired of it.

At many hotels, I feel the issue may be one of training rather than the hotel not being willing to give what they should. Other times it is the front desk staff simply forgetting some things (this too may be a training issue).

Here are my thoughts:

(1) A lot of airlines, hotels and car rental company agents are not well versed in the rules. Often I find myself ignoring them when they explain false rules, or trying (not always with sucess) to explain the correct rules to them. This is extremely frustrating.

(2) There are a lot of jerks out there who expect more than they deserve. It's great to get an upgrade, but if one isn't available or you aren't guaranteed it (by the rules), you have no right to complain. There are plenty of jerks who want what's way above and beyond of the rules and reason. Take the jerk who's sitting in coach, but expects first class type service (like having the FAs hang up his coat in the FC closet) because he "spends a lot of money with this airline" or "usually flies in first."

The other component of (2) is how it relates to (1). Too many agents don't know the rules, and people become used to getting stuff they don't deserve. Then they demand it when they finally come across someone who knows what they're talking about.

d

Here's a (3)-

(3) Way too many people have a "get something for nothing" attitude towards the travel industry. People are just waiting for something to go wrong so they can complain about it to get something for free. This is a very widespread attitude. Part of it probably comes from the nature of the travel industry - with frequent traveler programs it's easy to get and ask for some bonus points/miles. And with air, car and hotel companies it's easy to expect or ask for an upgrade, whether or not it is deserved.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by onedog:
When I alter my behaviour (stay with HHonors instead of SPG) because HHonors promises me free breakfast with every stay, then I expect a free breakfast every time I stay at an HHonors property. It is not because of a false sense of entitlement that I want that breakfast, it is because HHonors promised it to me. When a front desk morom then says to me that "oh, we don't do that for HHonors members", then HHonors is not fulfilling their part of the bargain.</font>

You are right. And as long as you are not a jerk about it, I have no problem with you reminding the folks that they're supposed to provide that to you.

The problem is that some folks think they deserve things that they are NOT entitled to. And they are jerks about it. That makes things very difficult for folks like you and me, who only want what we're supposed to get! Think of it this way -- if some butthead has just *****ed at you because he didn't get something he wasn't entitled to, what are you going to think when someone else comes up to you with a request, even if it's a reasonable one. As hard as you try, you're human, and you're going to be thinking in the back of your mind, oh, God, not another one.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
I think you are entitled to something--there is nothing "false" about it--but it doesn't entitle you to act like a jerk. I thing Efrem's post strikes the right balance.</font>

I'd have to agree with this. If you encounter a difficult or uninformed employee, I'd try to escalate it politely. If that doesn't get you anywhere, write a nice letter and try to get your benefits on the back end of the trip. Social etiquette still applies when you feel you've been done wrong me thinks.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
Here's a (3)-

(3) Way too many people have a "get something for nothing" attitude towards the travel industry. People are just waiting for something to go wrong so they can complain about it to get something for free. This is a very widespread attitude. Part of it probably comes from the nature of the travel industry ...
</font>

You've said it perfectly.

Almost every day over the past few weeks, FT has had one or two new "topics" from folks spouting ever-more outlandish demands for compensation.
For some folks, getting what they paid for - but no extra -- has become grounds for outrage.
"I bought a U ticket to fly A to B, and to arrive safely. But the weather screwed up the system - so OK, I arrived alive at B, but it was late!! I'm *very* important, you know - so now the airline owes me headset vouchers, drink coupons, miles, two seats in F, a few certs ..."
Now most of us *despise* weather delays, of course - but after Little Rock and similar disasters, we have the sense not to while about an airline or pilot delaying us on a legitimate question about flight safety in a storm. (And we wouldn't accuse the airline staff of lying until we'd PROVEN that's true.
For whiners who expect the airlines to pay for *everything* that doesn't suit their taste, I suggest
a) try motorcoaches
b) file future grievances toward He who created the storms/snow/ice/whatever.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Don:
For some folks, getting what they paid for - but no extra -- has become grounds for outrage. </font>

You got it. I would hate to work customer service for that very reason. Whatever happened to the saying, you get what you pay for? Want first class? Well, pay for it!

Being a President of a retail operation, you have no idea how wide spread this sense of entitlement is, and how people attempt to take advantage of every little thing.

The real threat in all this is that too many abusive situations tends to desensitize one - and that can impact those who DO deserve something more.

Generally speaking, I'll listen. But if you're acting like a *******, I'll either refuse or give you the minimum at best.

Ask nice, treat the staff with some respect and be reasonable, and I'll bet my staff falls over backwards to help you.

Just like the travel industry.

Bottom Line: Acting like a jerk is usually not a good strategy.

I stayed at the Conrad in Singapore for my 2nd time. I am Hilton Gold. On the stay, I stayed on an award ticket. Got upgraded to the executive floor. Everything was impeccible & delivered as promised. Will recommend the Conrad without hesitation! Once last year, I stayed at a Hilton & received an inferior room with no breakfast. Asked nicely for upgraded room with breakfast, said can't upgrade because you did not pay "rack" rate. To keep the peace, I did not argue & politely complained later. Got a coupon for 50% off rack rate for a future stay at that hotel. Gave the coupon away on FT as a new member of FT. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I generally agree with the sentiments here. But it's a real balance that has to be struck. Becasue seomtimes being right and being entitled is not enough...

Here's an example: I wanted to fly IAD-SFO on Thursday, so bought a ticket on the 9:30am flight this past Sunday, figuring, hey, its a 757, I dont need to check on upgrade availability.

Lo and behold the sucker's nearly full and I'm waitlisted. SO, I figgure, ok, I ain't going to go through the stress of a gate upgrade, so I'll move to the earlier 7:30 flight since first looks wide open. Besides, that way I can enjoy the best darn airport Bloody in the country at the circle bar during the extended layover.

The response: Sir, I'll have to refare that. Never mind the outrageous price I already paid for the "discount" ticket, rules are supposed to be rules. Same day, same route, different time: free change for 1ks.

"I've never heard of such a thing, sir."

So I say, I'm quite sure of it, could you please check? "Sir, you can either take your chances on the PA1 list or let me refare this ticket."

What would YOU do in this situation?

I mean, I KNOW the rules. I am playing by them. I am NOT being unreasonable. I am NOT demanding anything to which I am not entitled. I should ream this woman, right? Read her the riot act, demand her superior, get her butt fired for incompetence and incredibly poor customer service. Right? Right?

To me the solution was simple: "Gosh. Well. You must be right, I'm sorry. Tell you what, lets just leave the reservation as it is and I'll cross my fingers. Thanks so much for your help today!"

Hang up.

Call back.

Ticket changed in 2 minutes by the CSR who answers.

Same thing at Hiltons....if I dont get what I feel I am entitled to, I just call the Diamond desk. They hate to, but will usually work it out with the hotel.

Same reason I avoid the IAD 1k Center, except to go in there and tease them.

Its no mystery, my "sense of entitlement" is borne by the published benefits of the particular loyalty programs to which I belong. If HHonors didn't promise Diamond members breakfast vouchers, I wouldn't have expected one at my most recent stay at the Reno Hilton, aka Hilton's Hotel from Hell. Having been in the hospitality industry myself, I understand that some guests are overbearing jerks. And I stress, my experience at most Hiltons is uniformly positive. I believe the point of this thread whether or not we have false expectations when we ask for benefits that the loyalty programs promise us.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
Here are my thoughts:

(1) A lot of airlines, hotels and car rental company agents are not well versed in the rules. Often I find myself ignoring them when they explain false rules, or trying (not always with sucess) to explain the correct rules to them. This is extremely frustrating.

d</font>

Worst of all, those who don't know their business often take the greatest umbrage: 'Are you telling me I don't know my own business/job??' http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
As others have posted, I hang up & call again, hoping for another agent.

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Flyertalk.com ...because miles & points don't grow on trees!

This issue of entitlement is great. There are a lot of good comment and mostly thoughtful.

My main issue is if you offer a loyalty program you need to train people on the benefits to your customer. The whole idea is to encourage long term loyalty to your brand.

If you do not provide what you offer is where it can hurt your loyalty form the best customers. Remember the company elected to offer in in exchange for our continued business.

I feel the best comment is to try and always be polite and you will usually get more from the company.

They need to remember why the program is offered. It is not a free gift as some uninformed employees state, but an earned benefit offered by mutually accepted terms and conditions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by lisadiamond:
If HHonors didn't promise Diamond members breakfast vouchers, I wouldn't have expected one at my most recent stay at the Reno Hilton </font>

From a FT perspective, if the threads concerning the Reno Hilton had instead discussed a Starwood property, the Starwood Lurker would have been all over the situation and promptly told us the steps being taken toward service recovery. Starwood cares about its loyalty program's members. What about Hilton HHonors? It has a disobedient child (or step-child as Park Place Entertainment claims to be) and apparently prefer to ignore its inappropriate behavior, which means it is approving of and reinforcing it.

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Biggest Little 1K (in The Biggest Little City) In The World

Look at the dead and dying Priority Club threads to see where an attitude like the one discussed above leads you.

Recent threads have focused on who had the most numbers of stays prior to abandoning the program.

There are no colder words than displaying a card that represents you spend 90+ nights a year with a program and having the desk clerk toss the card back to you with a "I gotcher number already". This program should be the poster child of curing brand loyalty.

So I think that sa long as I have choice of where I stay, you either give me a reason to return, or hold open the door for me on my way out.

Last year I had two airline award tickets issued in the wrong names--names so garbled they represented people who don't exist. True, I contributed to the mess by allowing my stepmother to make the reservations for her and my father using my frequent flyer number. She gave their first names and the agent assumed my last name. Pretty tricky when you have to present picture ID!

Several CRs wanted $50 per to "redeposit" the miles in my account and reissue the tickets. After several arguments, I just kept calling back until I got a Customer SERVICE Representative who did it for free, and was pleasant about the whole thing.

When a particular property "doesn't participate" in the chain's loyalty program, shouldn't that be noted on the website, printed advertising and reservation confirmation? I'd love to see the Hilton website loaded with asterisks for places that opt out. Maybe that would be a corporate wake-up call.

On the airlines, the benefits of the various tiers of the programs are fairly rigid and documented. I've never been let down on a published benefit.

In the hotel programs, it seems that there are a number of issues
1) training
2) franchised hotels (an issue you'd really never have with the airlines)
3) ambiguity in the rules.

On training, I've had hotel desk clerks open their procedures manual on more than one occasion to look up a rule. It never hurts to ask politely.

On franchised hotels, it's pretty hard to deal with. I was at the Embassy Suites in Markham (Toronto) a few weeks ago, a franchise, with my HHonors Gold -- didn't get anything (including any credit for the stay, I had to request it).

On ambiguity, there's a lot of it, esp. in HHonors. I just went to look up what kind of late check-out is available with HHonors, since I once asked a Hampton Inn for 3 PM checkout and was told "we NEVER do 3 PM for late check-out." There's no documentation on what time defines late check-out for Gold HHonors members, just that it is available. And the booklet says "You may request an upgrade [emphasis mine] to the best available room, subject to availability at time of check-in..."

On cars, I'm only in Hertz -- 5* program, and yes, I usually get an upgrade (including a Jaguar S-Type and two Mercedes C/E on my last trips to Germany). They seem pretty good at upgrading, but it's also fairly random how much of an upgrade.

I just emailed this thread to Adam Burke, Hilton's FT lurker, and invited his response. Lets see if Hilton really cares about it HHonors members' concerns. Any bets whether he'll respond or not?

Adam Burke has had many opportunities to address these issues and has chosen to remain mute. Adam your silence is deafening. My money is on Starwood properties increasing their occupancy rate.

I'm a desk clerk at a business hotel in a small market. (Sounds like the opening of Penthouse letter....) Anyway, my personal experience is that as soon as someone (elite member or not) starts "demanding" something that is not spelled out, their chances of getting that something become inversely proportional to the amount of noise they make. We will bend over backward to make our guests comfortable and happy, but don't be coming at me with "I deserve better treatment than those people because I'm elite". All of our guests deserve the same treatment, some just qualify for different amenities. If you qualify and I have it available, you get it. If it's not available, shining your butt at me isn't going to make it available.

dupe post - sorry

[This message has been edited by Thumper (edited 04-23-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by og719:
I'm a desk clerk at a business hotel in a small market. (Sounds like the opening of Penthouse letter....) Anyway, my personal experience is that as soon as someone (elite member or not) starts "demanding" something that is not spelled out, their chances of getting that something become inversely proportional to the amount of noise they make. We will bend over backward to make our guests comfortable and happy, but don't be coming at me with "I deserve better treatment than those people because I'm elite". All of our guests deserve the same treatment, some just qualify for different amenities. If you qualify and I have it available, you get it. If it's not available, shining your butt at me isn't going to make it available.</font>

Welcome to Flyertalk!

It is invaluable to us as travelers to have an insight like yours. It is very obvious that being abusive isn't the path to go.

I am intrigued by your comment that all travelers are to be treated equally, whether they are frequent guests or not.

Honestly, I look at my stay as more valuable to your hotel than the casual user. I spend 25 to 30 nights a year in Denver, as an example, and am free to choose where I want to stay. Don't you think there needs to be a better system to identify travelers like me?
And to make sure its your property that I return to?

How would manage the balance?

All of our guests DO deserve the same treatment. Note that I qualified that statement by saying that elite member are eligible for more amenities. The day I start thinking I should treat one guest better than another will be the day I should get out of the business. The most important guest in the history of our hotel is the next one I deal with.

I just arrive in SF last night - staying at a Sheraton. I am Starwood platinum, and know I am "entitled" to a suite upgrade if available.

Upon checkin, I asked "are there any suites available" and was told no, they are all sold out.

I then politely asked - is it possible one might be available later in the week. He said he would check. I said it wasn't a big deal, I could check back in a couple days.

He continued checking his computer, and voila - assigned me a nice suite for the entire week.

I don't know what would have happened if I had demanded a suite - but even if I'd have gotten one, it would have left a bad taste all around. Instead, I did what our mom's always told us "asked nicely" - and I end up a happy customer.

Someone once suggested smoking out suite upgrade availablity by walking up to the check-in and not identifying yourself, but asking, do you have any suites to rent tonight? If the answer is yes, then introduce yourself and tell them that you are checking as a Diamond anmd you're glad it's available to upgraded to. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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"You are A Freak. You are A Freak. You are A Freak. You are A Freak."

-- Wingless, DUS-ORD, February 10, 2002...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Thumper:
I am intrigued by your comment that all travelers are to be treated equally, whether they are frequent guests or not.

Honestly, I look at my stay as more valuable to your hotel than the casual user. I spend 25 to 30 nights a year in Denver, as an example, and am free to choose where I want to stay.</font>

Do you remember the movie for Love or Glory, with Michael J. Fox and Gabrielle Anwar? Remember how Fox kept on trying to get this guy who he thought was a big time player to bankroll his project and that guy essentially screwed him? And remember how the guy who was staying at the hotel for the first time ever happened to be a guy who had so much capital that he could have bought and sold the guy Fox was targeting ten times over without a sweat?

Same thing applies here. Before you go and act like you're a big player because you stay at a particular hotel 30 nights a year, think of this. A meeting planner who books one board meeting there racks up more rooms in one week than you'll rack up in an entire year. And that meeting planner also does catering, AV, and so on.
Plus, this guy already said that you will get what you're supposed to receive if it's available, and if it's not available, then you won't. That's the right attitude to have.
I like the attitude that says I will treat all my customers well, and nobody will get better treatment than others. Just because you stay at a particular place a lot shouldn't mean that you get anything more than the guy who shows up for the first time. You never know. That guy showing up for the first time may want to book a meeting there later, and he'll spend more than you do.

And let's be honest here. A lot of the folks here are trying to game the system, to get their "elite" status as cheaply as possible. I guarantee you that someone who's travelling for business and who isn't concerned about the costs generates more revenue in a few trips for the various companies he uses than a lot of the folks here do all year!

I mean, there were posts talking about how to become a 1K on UAL for less than a grand. I spent twice, three times that for a last minute trip that I needed to take! I did that before I got "elite" status on them. So even though I wasn't an "elite" flyer, I generated more revenue in one trip than the folks who gamed the system and got their 1Ks did.

So you never know who the customer will be who generates the big bucks. That's why you have to treat all of them well.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VolleyballFerd:
...
Upon checkin, I asked "are there any suites available" and was told no, they are all sold out.
...
He continued checking his computer, and voila - assigned me a nice suite for the entire week.
...</font>

What happened between, "No, they are all sold out" and "voila, nice suite for the entire week."? I'm sure at this point you were glad to have the upgraded room, but playing devils's advocate, when you first asked, either the agent: a) lied flat out to you about availability, or b) was incompetant about not taking the extra 90 seconds (?) or so to check for availability.

The next time you ask for an upgrade and the answer is no, you have to ask yourself, a) is there really no availability, b) does the agent not know how to check for availabiltiy, c) did I not say the right things, or send out good vibes, to get the agent to try to find an upgrade for me?

Jeff

Hey I agree with mdtony! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Seriously, if you get indifferent, mediocre service, do you say to yourself "this is where I want to spend all my money so they'll treat me better? I don't. If a service business can't treat every customer with respect, consideration and some degree of friendliness, they really don't deserve to succeed. I applaud og719's attitude (and welcome to flyertalk).

Howdy folks,

Here's my sorry butt two cents.

How about loyalty programs reward us in direct response to the net profit they make on us? With all my last minute flights and rack rate hotel rooms, I'd do well http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Anyway - the point of my response here was to make note that I hope I have the pleasure of staying in og719's hotel. That's the kind of hotel I'd appreciate.

Go og719!

Keep the faith,

Pakse

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by onedog:
I think sometimes people are confused by what they are [b]supposed to receive, and what they think they are supposed to receive.
B]</font>

I don't think it's a question of confusion.

Whether it's a hotel program, casino VIP club, or Subway sandwich card, there is always a gap between what the program promises and the individual properties deliver.

I think the reason is simple: the individual property does not directly benefit from upgrading any particular individual. And it's too easy to cheat (deny benefits), because only a small number will complain.

Sometimes, corporate simply gives up trying to enforce a program. Subway did that with their "frequent sandwich card". Despite being bound by their franchise agreement, individually-owned Subways decided the program program was too generous for their liking and made up their own rules. Several in my area decided half the stamps had to have come from their store in order to redeem a freebie. Called corporate, they said, "I understand your frustration, but what can we do?" How about you revoke their franchise. Other than legal action, there may not be anything to do when faced with a mutiny. They eventually replaced the program with a watered-down version that requires a drink purchase.

It says right in the literature you get with your Harrah's VIP Diamond card that you're entitled to free accomodations at any Harrah's anywhere in the U.S. But if you try to collect on that at a property you have no history at, you'll get a load of gas. Faxing them a copy of the blurbage may still leave them unmoved.

I've heard stories of HH and SW hotels pretending not to have upgraded rooms available when they didn't feel like giving them out to Diamond and Platinum cardholders.

By all means protest loudly and often if you don't get your due, but I don't see any of this changing any time soon.

~BK

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Pakse:
How about loyalty programs reward us in direct response to the net profit they make on us? With all my last minute flights and rack rate hotel rooms, I'd do well http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

</font>

Hotel programs already do that, to an extent (stays determine status but $$$ determine points).

And I guarantee you that if the 6 major airlines thought they could get away with it, they'd switch to a revenue-based FF/elite system tomorrow.

SP

Are some of you LOOKING for confrontation EVERYTIME you check into a property? Life is too short isn't it?

Seriously, I think there might be a problem with the attitude of the individuals on this board who routinely have "problems" obtaining what they feel as though they "deserve". I don't.

As a HHonors VIP Preferred, I very RARELY find myself in a circumstance in which the property failed to deliver to my expectations. While I can be very demanding I am very gracious when I tell ask for the best possible accomodations and other amenities. MOST IMPORTANTLY, I AM FLEXIBLE AND REALISTIC. If my reservation was made at the very last minute (as in five minutes before I arrive) and the property is full - I am more understanding as far as the possibilities for being upgraded are concerned.

There are rare instances in which the front desk manager has a negative attitude toward HHonors Elites. I interpret that to mean he or she doesn't appreciate the long-term value of the customer - and as a stock-holder in the company AND an HHonors Elite, only THEN do I feel the need to through my weight around. This happened ONE TIME LAST YEAR out of a total of over 100 nights with Hilton Hotels Worldwide.

It seems to me that some of the SAME people are complaining AGAIN AND AGAIN about properties all over the country. Could there be more to the problem? I think that those of you who go to check-in LOOKING for a confrontation will never be disappointed.

Just as an aside I will tell you that when I was a very young man I used to get a thrill out of trying to get upgraded into first class wherever I could whether that involved hotel suites, commercial airplanes, private dining rooms, private limousines, etc. Back then - I didn't have the STATUS (the official credentials) - all I had to go on was charm - pure charm. I never forgot how successful I was on charm all by itself. I still lead with it and my "credentials" come second - I suspect that method has much more to do with my 99% satisfaction rate than my "status". Perhaps those who "always" have problems "getting what they deserve" might give it a try sometime? They might be surprised at how well they might do on charm alone. Its a good lesson in humility.


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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,and there you will forever long to return." Leonardo da Vinci

200 nights/200 legs a year



[This message has been edited by hotlancer (edited 04-23-2002).]

Just one more reiteration of something I said earlier, then I'll shut up. If it's available, you'll get it and there will be no need to try to throw any weight. If it's not available you're not throwing weight, you're acting like a jerk.

I don't think business travelers on an expense account are necessarily the most important customers.

A good number of them don't have a choice. Corporate guidelines tells them which hotels they are staying at. If the hotel treats them badly, they don't get a choice of not staying there next time. The same goes for airlines and car rental companies that have volume purchasing agreements with the corporation.

Then you have people who can choose where they stay at. Treat them badly, and you'll kiss their money goodbye. Even if it's not a large amount relative to a corporate account, you'll still never see that $$ again.

Of course, the most dangerous/lucrative customer of all are people on an expense account who can choose where to stay.

In any case, I don't believe the mantra that the full revenue or rack rate or high volume corporate customer are the most important. You guys are going to be at that airline counter or hotel check-in counter no matter the treatment you get. You have to fly/travel. The people who are there only because they wants to - those are the people who will make/break the profit statement.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by og719:
...All of our guests deserve the same treatment...</font>

The sad thing is that some hotels (usually the same hotels over and over as we have read here on FT) take this to mean, treat all guests as CR*P.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by og719:
...If you qualify and I have it available(emphasis by onedog), you get it...</font>

I think what irritates people is the vague meaning of available. Is an amenity (be it an upgrade, breakfast, whatever) not available because the front desk clerk is (usually) too lazy or indifferent to provide it too you, because the front desk clerk doesn't know that you are entitled http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif to it or because it really just is not available?

I think the worst response is when a guest asks politely (if the person asking is a jerk, they don't deserve the upgrade, but that is a different issue) if an upgrade is available and the front desk clerk comes up with a cockamamie answer like "oh, we don't do that", or without even stopping to think about your question answers sarcastically "oh, we are sold out of suites for the rest of the year."


[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 04-23-2002).]

Onedog,

Good points, and desk clerks who are indifferent or too lazy to check don't belong in a customer service industry. But they certainly exist. I think the key is courteous behavior on the part of both parties.

Two nights ago I had an elite member check in after 10 pm and didn't like the room. Wanted to know why we didn't "save" our best rooms for elite members (we were at 100% that night). I still had two checkins outstanding so I transferred him to another and he didn't like that one either. Going to call corporate, complain to the program people, blah, blah, blah...I would have built the guy a suite if he had just shut up. I'm pretty thick skinned so it didn't bother me, but some of the younger desk clerks let people like that get to them.

There are times when I'm really tempted to downgrade people (elite or not) because of their behavior. Soemtimes it's a warm feeling to know that I have that smaller room right next to the elevator and vending/ice machines in my pocket..... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jwhite4:
What happened between, "No, they are all sold out" and "voila, nice suite for the entire week."? I'm sure at this point you were glad to have the upgraded room, but playing devils's advocate, when you first asked, either the agent: a) lied flat out to you about availability, or b) was incompetant about not taking the extra 90 seconds (?) or so to check for availability.

The next time you ask for an upgrade and the answer is no, you have to ask yourself, a) is there really no availability, b) does the agent not know how to check for availabiltiy, c) did I not say the right things, or send out good vibes, to get the agent to try to find an upgrade for me?

Jeff</font>

I totally agree with you - I believe that the initial answer "we are sold out" was most likely a lie - and possibly in keeping with an unwritten policy. Since I can't control their initial response (lie) the question is "what is the best approach to deal with it".

I wasn't polite because I thought it would work best - I was that way because it is the way I am - and if they didn't have a suite it wasn't a big deal. But, in light of the result, it seems like it might also be the best approach.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hotlancer:
Are some of you LOOKING for confrontation EVERYTIME you check into a property? Life is too short isn't it?

It seems to me that some of the SAME people are complaining AGAIN AND AGAIN about properties all over the country. Could there be more to the problem? I think that those of you who go to check-in LOOKING for a confrontation will never be disappointed.</font>

I like your attitude. I really do. I'm much the same way. I mean, look at the things I've received from places that are supposed to be inflexible and rude just by, God forbid, treating the person who is on the other side of the counter like a human being! Let's see, you're not supposed to get operational upgrades on UAL? In the past two years, I've gotten three -- one of which was an upgrade on my birthday from New Zealand to DC. And I've walked away with bottles of wine and champagne, and I've received "apple juice" or "cranberry juice" in coach. At the hotel I am staying at, because they had a problem with the high speed internet connection in the room that I was staying at, they upgraded me to a suite -- without me asking.

Was I entitled to these things? No, I was not. But I got them. Why? Because you reap what you sow. If you want to act in a confrontational way, you will get one. But if you go in, just calm and collected and polite, you'll often get more than what you hope for.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:
I don't think business travelers on an expense account are necessarily the most important customers.

Then you have people who can choose where they stay at. Treat them badly, and you'll kiss their money goodbye. Even if it's not a large amount relative to a corporate account, you'll still never see that $$ again.

Of course, the most dangerous/lucrative customer of all are people on an expense account who can choose where to stay.

In any case, I don't believe the mantra that the full revenue or rack rate or high volume corporate customer are the most important. You guys are going to be at that airline counter or hotel check-in counter no matter the treatment you get. You have to fly/travel. The people who are there only because they wants to - those are the people who will make/break the profit statement.</font>

Sorry to be argumentative, but your analysis is flawed. I choose where I want to stay. I do book my air travel through a travel agent, but I get to choose who I fly on, as long as the fares are close. I am not atypical of a business traveller.

In addition, how many last minute flights have you booked in the past year? Keep in mind that just one of those -- which I do a couple of times a year -- is worth around ten of your trips with the restricted, plan ahead fare.

But don't listen to me. Look at who everyone except Con Air needs in order to be profitable. It ain't the leisure traveller paying $300 to go from coast to coast. Nope, it's the guy like me, who has to be somewhere the next day, no if, ands, buts or maybes, and who has to drop $2,500 to do it.

Most of us are businessmen and understand the long term value of taking care of your customers.

I find the hilton chain reasonable good at making extra effort to recognize those of us who are high use customers.

When I run into a rude or surly front desk agent I usually call the HHonors Diamond Desk and they contact the hotel.

This is a good way for the hotel to "learn" that they have an issue and lets them "train" the front desk and others on how to better serve the guests.

Anyone else call the Hhonors Diamond Desk when they ran into issues?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mdtony:
Sorry to be argumentative, but your analysis is flawed. I choose where I want to stay. I do book my air travel through a travel agent, but I get to choose who I fly on, as long as the fares are close. I am not atypical of a business traveller.

In addition, how many last minute flights have you booked in the past year? Keep in mind that just one of those -- which I do a couple of times a year -- is worth around ten of your trips with the restricted, plan ahead fare.

But don't listen to me. Look at who everyone except Con Air needs in order to be profitable. It ain't the leisure traveller paying $300 to go from coast to coast. Nope, it's the guy like me, who has to be somewhere the next day, no if, ands, buts or maybes, and who has to drop $2,500 to do it.</font>

In my last 10 trips, I spent over $6k. How much did you pay for your last ticket?

In any case, the question is that if the low-price airline/hotel consistently gave you below-expectations service - would you be able to justify spending more money on the ticket or hotel to get better service?

You've emphasized before in other posts aobut being conscientious about spending your employer's money. That means a hotel chain or airline could treat you shabbily and still expect you to do business with them as long as they offer the lowest prices.

The difference for me is that if I don't like a particular hotel or airline, I just won't use them - even if they offer a lower fare/rate.

Is the same true for you?

Different strokes for different folks....

I think Hilton does a good job at many different levels and we all benefit.

Marriott and the others don't even come close.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Plato90s:
In any case, the question is that if the low-price airline/hotel consistently gave you below-expectations service - would you be able to justify spending more money on the ticket or hotel to get better service?

The difference for me is that if I don't like a particular hotel or airline, I just won't use them - even if they offer a lower fare/rate.

Is the same true for you?</font>

Let's put it this way. Con Air is consistently cheaper to fly to a lot of the places where I need to go. I don't fly them.

I can pick and choose where I stay, where I go, and so on. Yes, cost is a consideration. My boss doesn't like it too much when I have to go somewhere last minute, but I tell them that if they want me to close a $250K account, they better be willing to spend $3K to do it.

Let's not get into a pissing contest about who spends more money. Let's put it like this -- since I've been working for my current employer, I've dropped around $4K in air fare for three trips. Go with that, and by the time I get to ten, I'll have dropped like $12K so I got ya doubled =)