TalkBoard Topics - New Forum Proposal: Travel Surveys

Following a suggestion by RichardInSF in this closed forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=631556

A proposal has been made for a new forum, Travel Surveys.

Please discuss, without discussing moderation. :)

I don't see a multiple amount of travel surveys posted to justify creating a forum/sub-forum. In fact, the creation of such a forum/sub-forum may generate more (annoying) surveys.

What he said.

Ditto.

I don't see a multiple amount of travel surveys posted to justify creating a forum/sub-forum. In fact, the creation of such a forum/sub-forum may generate more (annoying) surveys.

Could not agree more.

I like TravelBuzz! as it is. So what they said, I guess....

Agreed. I also doubt that most of the people posting these questions would even bother to find their way to a separate forum to ask their (stupid) questions.

I agree with everyone - no thank you to new forum! Creating another forum would just encourage more and more of them!

Without discussing forbidden topics, there is clearly a valid issue here and I am not the only one who thinks so, even if my current proposed solution isn't the ideal way to handle it. Many of the above posters are basically objecting to my proposal because of their concern that it would exacerbate rather than solve the underlying problem.

So my REAL question is: is there ANY way to have a reasoned discussion on the underlying issue within the context of FT?

I am NOT asking about any specific post or thread or action taken on such posts, but rather about changing the definition of the current "TravelBuzz" forum. This would seem to be legitimately within the remit of the Talk Board.

Without discussing forbidden topics, there is clearly a valid issue here and I am not the only one who thinks so, even if my current proposed solution isn't the ideal way to handle it. Many of the above posters are basically objecting to my proposal because of their concern that it would exacerbate rather than solve the underlying problem.

So my REAL question is: is there ANY way to have a reasoned discussion on the underlying issue within the context of FT?

I am NOT asking about any specific post or thread or action taken on such posts, but rather about changing the definition of the current "TravelBuzz" forum. This would seem to be legitimately within the remit of the Talk Board.

Ok, what do you think the purpose of the Travel Buzz forum should be?

Without discussing forbidden topics, there is clearly a valid issue here and I am not the only one who thinks so, even if my current proposed solution isn't the ideal way to handle it. Many of the above posters are basically objecting to my proposal because of their concern that it would exacerbate rather than solve the underlying problem.

So my REAL question is: is there ANY way to have a reasoned discussion on the underlying issue within the context of FT?

I am NOT asking about any specific post or thread or action taken on such posts, but rather about changing the definition of the current "TravelBuzz" forum. This would seem to be legitimately within the remit of the Talk Board.

"Clearly a valid issue" assumes that you are "right" about this. I disagree -- does that mean that my views are "invalid?"

What's the problem, anyway? If there are surveys of this kind, don't click on them. My new posts show up in bold blue and sometimes I have to click on a second page to see all the new threads. So, other than clicking more, what's different about TravelBuzz now than before?

What's the problem, anyway? If there are surveys of this kind, don't click on them. My new posts show up in bold blue and sometimes I have to click on a second page to see all the new threads. So, other than clicking more, what's different about TravelBuzz now than before? The problem I have with the large number of these type of threads is that FTers who are starting threads looking for help and advice, where it doesn't fit into any other forum, are being moved more quickly off the front page, so may be missing out on the help/advice they are looking for - and which for me is one of the major purposes of Travel Buzz. And usually, if you are heading to Travel Buzz for advice, it can be very often for emergency advice - lost passports, hotel issues, visa problems, theft, robbery are all things I've seen posted as cries for help on TB. I do know of some threads seeking help which have gone unanswered in the forum - I don't know if the random survey type questions were complicit in that, or if no-one on FT knew the answer, but I do think the utility of Travel Buzz is decreasing as a result of the increasingly large proportion of these types of threads. Unfortunately, I've got no clever ideas how to improve the situation - I tend to agree with DavidDTW about why the current suggestion wouldn't work.

So, other than clicking more, what's different about TravelBuzz now than before?

The issue seems to lie in that, over the past 6 months to 1 year or so, there have been a number of new or relatively new members who appear and begin posting numerous "strange" questions (I don't necessarily mean bad, I just cannot think of a different term to use at the moment), mainly on Travelbuzz, and who never seem to contribute in any other way (and seemingly don't revisit the topics they have created). Thus, in some members' opinion, the noise ratio on TravelBuzz has increased dramatically.

Some members have speculated that we are the subject of a bizarre sociology experiment. ;)

The issue seems to lie in that, over the past 6 months to 1 year or so, there have been a number of new or relatively new members who appear and begin posting numerous "strange" questions (I don't necessarily mean bad, I just cannot think of a different term to use at the moment), mainly on Travelbuzz, and who never seem to contribute in any other way (and seemingly don't revisit the topics they have created). Thus, in some members' opinion, the noise ratio on TravelBuzz has increased dramatically.

Some members have speculated that we are the subject of a bizarre sociology experiment. ;)

I follow TravelBuzz every day. I know which threads you mean. I guess I just don't find them that annoying and I actually find every third one (or so) interesting, regardless of who's posting them.

And to be honest, I have always viewed TravelBuzz to be kinda the OMNI for travel and not for some hugely worthy cause where important advice is asked for and received, as Jenbel expressed, above.

there is clearly a valid issue here and I am not the only one who thinks so

Great question by the OP!

I'm with you, RichardInSF! ^

It took me a long time to realize that "Great question by the OP!" fills much the same role in Travel Buzz that "RAR!" does in the United forum.

I really have the same difficulty that Jenbel does. There is a problem, and it's pretty obvious which threads are contributing to the problem, but I don't have a really great solution to propose. Ironically, if there were 1/4 as many of these threads as we are currently getting, it not only wouldn't be a problem, it would likely be a positive factor rather than a negative one.

We seem to have attracted a few new members who get off on starting multitudes of these threads without making any other contribution to FT. I certainly don't want to propose disallowing new members to start threads! Still, some sort of heuristic which calls for a sensible ratio between threads started and responses to other people's threads would solve the problem. After all, the same issue could arise in other forums as well.

We seem to have attracted a few new members who get off on starting multitudes of these threads without making any other contribution to FT. I certainly don't want to propose disallowing new members to start threads! Still, some sort of heuristic which calls for a sensible ratio between threads started and responses to other people's threads would solve the problem. After all, the same issue could arise in other forums as well.

I gotta say, I think this is more a matter of taste than anything else. I know the threads you're talking about and I find them to be quite enjoyable. I would not be willing to support a new forum just because a couple people don't find them interesting...

As the by-line says, TravelBuzz is for travel-related "stuff." Those threads certainly qualify.

The problem I have with the large number of these type of threads is that FTers who are starting threads looking for help and advice, where it doesn't fit into any other forum, are being moved more quickly off the front page, so may be missing out on the help/advice they are looking for - and which for me is one of the major purposes of Travel Buzz. And usually, if you are heading to Travel Buzz for advice, it can be very often for emergency advice - lost passports, hotel issues, visa problems, theft, robbery are all things I've seen posted as cries for help on TB. I do know of some threads seeking help which have gone unanswered in the forum - I don't know if the random survey type questions were complicit in that, or if no-one on FT knew the answer, but I do think the utility of Travel Buzz is decreasing as a result of the increasingly large proportion of these types of threads. Unfortunately, I've got no clever ideas how to improve the situation - I tend to agree with DavidDTW about why the current suggestion wouldn't work.

One idea that may help improve the situation is to have a Travel OMNI forum. As a moderator, I've moved things into TravelBuzz because of a lack of any other forum that would fit the profile. Sometimes I feel that TravelBuzz is a dumping ground for threads that don't really belong anywhere else - but are still travel related. If this is really a problem - and it seems like it is - maybe there should be a subforum (or another forum) that segments the two main types of posts in TravelBuzz - one for Travel Assistance (i.e. Passports, issues, cries for help, etc) and another for everything else - a sort of TravelOMNI?

This is just an idea that would need significant more development...but a possile solution...

Good suggestion, bhatnasx, but I think Travel Assistance would get 90+% of its traffic from those seeking assistance and little from those who could likely provide it.

Good suggestion, bhatnasx, but I think Travel Assistance would get 90+% of its traffic from those seeking assistance and little from those who could likely provide it.

Definitely true - most people who answer Q's in TravelBuzz are probably there to read what's going on & happen to answer the Q's there. I'm not sure that people are specifically going into forums to discuss specific things.

This, I think, is a potential issue with overly-specialized forums...if one looks at the various Travel & Dining forums, there are several forums that have been around for a while that have under 200 posts in them. I guess I would question whether there was an actual need for all of those forums or if it would be a good idea to consolidate the lesser read forums into a single Other Major Destinations forum & move other lesser read forums into TravelBuzz.

Having some sort of waiting time before starting threads might not be a bad idea. Remembering back to the occasions where we have new posters who come in and start up tons of new threads trying to sell something makes a mess of the boards and causes the mods to have to go in and clean everything up which I'm sure is a hassle to them.

OTOH: I realize that new posters may find there way here because of a legitimate question in which they would need to post. Maybe brand new posters who want to start a new thread would have to submit it and it would need to be approved before it actually appeared on the board.

Jsut a few ideas, thinking out loud.

This, I think, is a potential issue with overly-specialized forums...if one looks at the various Travel & Dining forums, there are several forums that have been around for a while that have under 200 posts in them. I guess I would question whether there was an actual need for all of those forums or if it would be a good idea to consolidate the lesser read forums into a single Other Major Destinations forum & move other lesser read forums into TravelBuzz.

Amen. Way too many forums on here if you ask me. The goal should be consolidation, not expansion.

We have a culture here though of "letting a thousand flowers bloom" when it comes to new forums, and as a result you get a lot of little-volume forums. As a result of that you have folks posting in Travelbuzz what really should be posted in the little-volume forums but since no one ever goes there and posts in those forums, you can't blame the OP for trying to get his/her question some visibility.

I joined a very popular board that has a minimum number of posts before a new thread can be started. I think the number was around 10 or 15.

If it could be implemented at FT, I would bet it would keep many of the trolls away.

I joined a very popular board that has a minimum number of posts before a new thread can be started. I think the number was around 10 or 15.

If it could be implemented at FT, I would bet it would keep many of the trolls away.

I like this idea.

I joined a very popular board that has a minimum number of posts before a new thread can be started. I think the number was around 10 or 15.

If it could be implemented at FT, I would bet it would keep many of the trolls away.

A challenge with this concept would be the fact that we may get some people posting fluff, just so they can ask a question...we have users that make a run for the Coupon Connection by posting fluff as well...we don't want to encourage that type of posting behavior.

A challenge with this concept would be the fact that we may get some people posting fluff, just so they can ask a question...we have users that make a run for the Coupon Connection by posting fluff as well...we don't want to encourage that type of posting behavior.

Maybe the TB should designate a committee to evaluate all new members and decide whether or not they are thread-creation worthy.

Maybe the TB should designate a committee to evaluate all new members and decide whether or not they are thread-creation worthy.

That is beyond the scope of the TalkBoard.

That is beyond the scope of the TalkBoard.

Maybe it doesn't have to be...

Maybe it doesn't have to be...

We get dozens of new members each day.

In order for any committee decision to take place on new members, the process of allowing new members would have to come to a standstill, or the job of evaluating new members would have to be one that is full-time and also paid.

I am fairly confident that the sign up process for new members will remain as it is for the forseeable future.

But what about the idea of restricting starting new threads until after a minimum (nominal) number of posts?

New users could still post to existing threads, and while they're at it, learn all that FT has to offer.

It WILL slow down the trolls and hopefullly make life easier on the mods.

But what about the idea of restricting starting new threads until after a minimum (nominal) number of posts?

New users could still post to existing threads, and while they're at it, learn all that FT has to offer.

It WILL slow down the trolls and hopefullly make life easier on the mods.

Personally, I do like that suggestion. It's no fun cleaning up after some of these spammers.

How many posts (without padding ;) ) before thread starting priviledges are granted?

I believe the forum I joined had a minimum of 10 before being able to start a new thread.

I think this here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=632540) is today's example what we are all talking about avoiding in the future!!!

I am fairly confident that the sign up process for new members will remain as it is for the forseeable future.

But one improvement we could make and that has been discussed elsewhere is not to allow the posting of URL's for the first dozen or so posts. This would cut back on spammers who hit several forums simultaneously with their first few posts and post URL's to whatever they are promoting.

And another thing that we should do is to require that new members have to re-type the random scrambled letters/numbers required by so many websites today. This prevents all but the most determined//sophisticated posting bot’s from registering.

I think it would be a good help to understand what folks use TravelBuzz for.

I'll admit that I have it as one of my subscribed forums and occasionally it shows up in MyFlyerTalk with an interesting topic so I'll post - but I really have never understood exactly what goes there myself. It seems like historically I recall a lot of "survey" type threads like "what is your company's expense policy" and I have always thought of it as a place to go ask general questions about traveling that don't relate to a particular airline/hotel, a certain destination, or getting miles.

So... for those who regularly use TravelBuzz... what do YOU see it being? What is an example of a topic you would post there and why?

t's no fun cleaning up after some of these spammers.


C'mon - you know you love them! ;)

I recently signed up at FatWallet.com - one of the things they have for new users is a pop up that appears for the users first 10 posts that basically talks about spamming (how if you post, you will be assessed a standard advertising fee of 1000.00 plus collection fees & legal fees involved & the type of content you put in your post as well as a link to the FW TOS. I think it's a great idea to do something of that nature as I believe it would significantly cut donw on spammers...

But that's slightly OT for this thread...

How many posts (without padding ;) ) before thread starting priviledges are granted?

25 and I think this is an excellent idea. It will certainly put an end to those trying to sell crapola who spam a bunch of forums with links and move on to the next community.

25 and I think this is an excellent idea. It will certainly put an end to those trying to sell crapola who spam a bunch of forums with links and move on to the next community.

I'd be hesitant to advocate a blanket elimination of newbies' thread-starting capabilities in Travelbuzz (or in other forums). A number of new members seeking out general travel help go there to get their answer. Also, a number of low-post count members have helped a lot of FTers get in on travel deals of which more/most of us would otherwise miss.

I think techgirl's earlier question about the purpose of Travelbuzz is fundamental to what should and should not be done.

My take:

1. a great number of these "travel surveys" in Travelbuzz don't seem to be helpful in improving the travel experience, nor in resolving a travel problem, nor in closing a gap in travel knowledge; and

2. a great number of these "travel surveys" seem more "communitybuzz"-like (i.e., tell me about yourself, your travel habits, experience and travel outlook) than Travelbuzz-like (i.e., general travel help/info and beneficial travel knowledge which doesn't have a place elsewhere)

I also think that banned members re-registering is part of the issue.

I think GUWonder called it 112% correctly and even correctly gave the one sentence summary of what TravelBuzz is about: improving the travel experience, resolving a travel problem, or closing a gap in travel knowledge. I would add one additional restriction: covers an area or combination of areas broader than one of the specific geographical area forums.

I don't have an opinion as to a particular number of threads, but I think an alternative criterion should be membership for a certain period of time (such as 6 mo. or 1 yr.). Some longer-term members may feel comfortable contributing comments only on a very limited subject and thus may not have many posts. For example, a member for the last three years who may have responded with info to every thread on North Dakota may not have 25 posts but I think that person should be allowed to post to TravelBuzz and similar fora. (ND is simply an example, I didn't count how may threads there actually were.)

A number of these "best of/worst of" lists have occurred in DiningBuzz over the years, though it seems like many more recently.

Rather than a new forum, is there a way to tie these into FlyerTalk Reviews, expanding that function to encompass "Best of/Worst of" lists? Having the ability to search geographically for those hotels, restaurants, etc. that people have strong feelings about is much more valuable to me as a traveller than a 5+ page thread which I have to read (or try searching) through if I want to find something in an area I'm travelling to.

1. a great number of these "travel surveys" in Travelbuzz don't seem to be helpful in improving the travel experience, nor in resolving a travel problem, nor in closing a gap in travel knowledge

Particularly when the poster will not identify his airline, or answer followup questions related to his survey topic. Here's a recent post in one of these survey threads:

"If I listed the Airline I was going on the editors of Flyer Talk would move the posting from this board to the specific Airline board and I would not get as many well thought out replies."

This doesn't facilitate the "sharing" of information that has made FT what it is. I wish those starting "generic airline" threads would be tasked to at least provide the name of the carrier they are flying, even if it means that it might get moved to an airline forum and out of Travel Buzz.

Being very new to FT, i know my opinions don't carry much weight, but if you didn't allow new people to start threads many people would have missed out on the Thailand hotel deal (as that was that poster's first post) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=631551

IMO, if people are joining the boards to spam, they'll spam the boards, whether they can start threads or not. I would have hated to have missed out on this deal. That's my 2 "schillings"

So, Talkboard members, is this discussion going to lead to anything?

Signed,
Curious in Tokyo (at least until tomorrow)

Edited to add....things are getting really bad over there once again, does the absence of a reply to my question mean "no"? If so, it would be nice if someone at least said so I know I should ignore that forum from now on.

Signed,
Home again

So, Talkboard members, is this discussion going to lead to anything?

Signed,
Curious in Tokyo (at least until tomorrow)

Edited to add....things are getting really bad over there once again, does the absence of a reply to my question mean "no"? If so, it would be nice if someone at least said so I know I should ignore that forum from now on.

Signed,
Home again

Agreed. Does the silence mean this is a "no" or what is going on here? Anyone? Bueller?


Signed,

Curious

My personal opinion is that there is a problem, but none of the changes which it has been suggested TB could make would be certain to resolve the situation.

Sorry :(

There is no certainty in life, but the TB could redefine the charter of the forum in a way that TRIES to solve the problem. We have good mods, they'd act on that in good faith, I am sure. If it didn't work, then you could go back to the old way or try something else.

There is no certainty in life, but the TB could redefine the charter of the forum in a way that TRIES to solve the problem. We have good mods, they'd act on that in good faith, I am sure. If it didn't work, then you could go back to the old way or try something else.

Do you have any specific suggestions? Personally, I don't feel comfortable with a post-count limit before having the ability to start a new thread. I think that most newbies post for the first time threads that they have started. I don't, however, know how many people's first threads were in TravelBuzz rather than more specific forums.

Two possible suggestions, based on the general direction of the discussion thus far:

If the approach was to be in the area of thread starting, I'd suggest limiting the number of threads a new member could start for the first six months to, say, one every three days.

If the approach was to better define TravelBuzz, I'd suggest starting with a slightly reworded version of GUWonder's definition: A forum dedicated to improving the travel experience, resolving travel problems, and closing gaps in travel knowledge.

The former can be quanitatively enforced (if the BB software allows!) and might even slow down spammers a bit without discouraging new members; the latter relies on interpretation by the mods and hence would likely handle unusual cases and exceptions better.

There is no certainty in life, but the TB could redefine the charter of the forum in a way that TRIES to solve the problem. We have good mods, they'd act on that in good faith, I am sure. If it didn't work, then you could go back to the old way or try something else.
No, I don't think we can. I, as I said during the elections, am uncomfortable with attempts to try and 'manage' moderation like this - moderation is moderation and TB is distinct from moderation. There would be absolutely no guarantee that us changing a board's definition would have any effect whatsoever on how it is moderated - and as such, I'm personally not prepared to go down that route.

Ok, so we limit new members to posting only every few days - how do we know that this doesn't just increase the number of handles registered?

I suppose we do that the same way we stop multiple handles (a violation of the TOS) right now -- for starters, by checking the IP address for those with static addresses. This is a technical issue that I hope has been largely resolved for many years!

No, I don't think we can. I, as I said during the elections, am uncomfortable with attempts to try and 'manage' moderation like this - moderation is moderation and TB is distinct from moderation. There would be absolutely no guarantee that us changing a board's definition would have any effect whatsoever on how it is moderated - and as such, I'm personally not prepared to go down that route.

Ok, so we limit new members to posting only every few days - how do we know that this doesn't just increase the number of handles registered?

TB is distinct from moderation, but is it so removed that TB doesn't/can't provide advice about TOS/TOS policy (i.e., distint from specific moderator action) and/or about forum description?

Given that TB votes in new forums, is TB's supplying/amending descriptions of FT forums, descriptions of which are used by moderators to determine appropriateness of threads/posts, really beyond the TB realm?

(I'm strongly opposed to numerical limits on the ability of new members to post in existing threads; and I'm not confident that limiting the ability of new members to start threads will accomplish any good once duplicate handles and copycats are taken into consideration.)

TB is distinct from moderation, but is it so removed that TB doesn't/can't provide advice about TOS/TOS policy (i.e., distint from specific moderator action) and/or about forum description? No it's not so removed. But it would (for me) depend what areas are being discussed - there are some areas, where as I've said previously, TB don't have the experience which the Mods do, and where it makes more sense to talk to Mods than TB as they will be living slightly more in the real world on some issues, dealing with them on a daily basis. Other areas, it would be perfectly appropriate for TB to be involved. IMHO, you use the tools best suited for the job in hand.

No it's not so removed. But it would (for me) depend what areas are being discussed - there are some areas, where as I've said previously, TB don't have the experience which the Mods do, and where it makes more sense to talk to Mods than TB as they will be living slightly more in the real world on some issues, dealing with them on a daily basis. Other areas, it would be perfectly appropriate for TB to be involved. IMHO, you use the tools best suited for the job in hand.

Thanks for your thoughts on this issue.

Given TB's current composition, with a majority of the TB members having Moderator roles/backgrounds (if I am not mistaken), I'm curious if the current TB has considered, does consider, or will consider proposing/amending/removing specific FT TOS. It would seem that given

1. that more TB members now -- than before the recent election -- have Moderator roles/backgrounds; and

2. the background about why this forum is being proposed now,

this kind of thing may come up for consideration, if it hasn't already.

Based on the discussion here and in the other thread about "moderators being elected to talk board," it sounds like there is agreement that it would be entirely within the remit of the TB to propose a change in the definition of a forum, even if that affects how moderators do their job, because this is not one of the forbidden areas.

So, I suggest once again that the definition of Travel Buzz be clarified by talk board as proposed above to provide guidance that would have the potential to limit the number of useless threads therein.

So, I suggest once again that the definition of Travel Buzz be clarified by talk board as proposed above to provide guidance that would have the potential to limit the number of useless threads therein.

I like it.

I wonder if a new thread should be created for the proposal, as this is no longer related to a New Forum.

It's now pretty clear even to me that no action is going to be taken on Travel Buzz. My personal solution is simply to avoid this forum most of the time, since it pretty much has become "Travel-related Omni." I presume this is good for the visit count (and hence the advertising revenue) of FT and I certainly am not opposed to actions which help keep the site financially healthy.

Please see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7065338&posted=1

People have started complaining in Travelbuzz about the survey-type of threads that are proliferating. RichardInSF isn't the only one who has noticed this...

Great proposal by the OP. I think there is a real problem on TravelBuzz as well. My solution was a technical one--allow us to ignore threads created by certain users.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=634735

I'd prefer it if a new forum were started for travel surveys though.

As far as what some of the best threads on TravelBuzz are, here are a few recent classics:


Why do so many people hide adult-oriented magazines behind drawers in hotel rooms?
Justr Fell Victim to a Scam in Istanbul -- God Do I feel Like an Idiot!
Best Travel Tips for 2004 (win $500)
"Did you smoke marijuana in Amsterdam?" US Customs question
I am mad - Teacher's assignment interferes with planned family trip
"Cheater," she hissed at me across the security line rope.
Deported from Costa Rica


Stories and advice. Discussion questions, not surveys.