Northwest WorldPerks (Discontinued Program) [closed to posting] - True World Business Class to HNL??

With the advent of the A330's to HNL on 1/8/07, NWA has a unique opportunity to correct it's woeful upfront service and menu. Since the A330 aircraft will be internationally configured with lie flat seats, AVOD, etc. NWA can get back in the game and deliver a true WBC experience to HNL ala CO's Business First. I'm talking 4 entree choices, gourmet appetizer, real salad with choice of dressing, good wines, a substantial hot snack prior to landing, cookies mid flight, etc.. The question is will marketing get to override the bean counters and make this happen? Right now CO's BF is the ONLY way to fly to HNL from the midwest. And while we're at it, can we PLEASE get a return of the regularly scheduled (not seasonal) DTW-HNL flight? Pretty shabby that the biggest hub in the NWA system doesn't fly direct to HNL. What say you? And what say YOU NWA?

I highly doubt NW will *enhance* the A330 flights to HNL above and beyond the domestic F (+ ice cream) as it is treated now. There's just not the market/revenue for the product. You can bet that they'll benefit financially from a more comfortable product and more premium seats though. Also, CO does not service their HNL flights as true BF - while it's outstanding compared to any NW offering, it's not much more than domestic trans-con service (no amentiy kit, no upgraded appetizer, etc.)

As more 330's come online, I also home that DTW-HNL is brought back. From what I understand, the route requires additional relief crew which significantly adds to the cost of operating the flight. With the increased efficiencies of the A330 (30% less fuel, 2 person flight deck rather than 3) compared to the DC10's maybe we'll get it.

I highly doubt NW will *enhance* the A330 flights to HNL above and beyond the domestic F (+ ice cream) as it is treated now. There's just not the market/revenue for the product. You can bet that they'll benefit financially from a more comfortable product and more premium seats though. Also, CO does not service their HNL flights as true BF - while it's outstanding compared to any NW offering, it's not much more than domestic trans-con service (no amentiy kit, no upgraded appetizer, etc.)

As more 330's come online, I also home that DTW-HNL is brought back. From what I understand, the route requires additional relief crew which significantly adds to the cost of operating the flight. With the increased efficiencies of the A330 (30% less fuel, 2 person flight deck rather than 3) compared to the DC10's maybe we'll get it.
Agreed. I highly doubt NW would put true WBC on the HNL routes.

As more 330's come online, I also home that DTW-HNL is brought back. From what I understand, the route requires additional relief crew which significantly adds to the cost of operating the flight. With the increased efficiencies of the A330 (30% less fuel, 2 person flight deck rather than 3) compared to the DC10's maybe we'll get it.

I had the good fortune to be in the elevator with some NWA managers during a meeting they had this week at the Mariott Detroit RenCen. I asked this question specifically. (Well, actually I asked them if they could upgrade my seat to F on the last DC-10 flight) But their line was that we would not be seeing DTW-HNL non-stop in 2007 or 2008. I specifically asked about the 787 and they kind of smiled at each other and said they had bigger plans for those. Unfortunatly, I didn't have the oppertunity to ask if that meant SYD or BOM before the doors opened.

Take it all with a grain of salt though.

I highly doubt NW will *enhance* the A330 flights to HNL above and beyond the domestic F (+ ice cream) as it is treated now. There's just not the market/revenue for the product. You can bet that they'll benefit financially from a more comfortable product and more premium seats though. Also, CO does not service their HNL flights as true BF - while it's outstanding compared to any NW offering, it's not much more than domestic trans-con service (no amentiy kit, no upgraded appetizer, etc.)

As more 330's come online, I also home that DTW-HNL is brought back. From what I understand, the route requires additional relief crew which significantly adds to the cost of operating the flight. With the increased efficiencies of the A330 (30% less fuel, 2 person flight deck rather than 3) compared to the DC10's maybe we'll get it.

Actually, with the exception of the amenity kit and cheese service, CO's BF to HNL is the same as anywhere else and vastly superior to domestic trans-con. It's that level of service I'm hoping NWA will consider instead of the chicken buried in some kind of sauce and the mushy pasta bowl that passes for FC cuisine today. And if there isn't a revenue market for this kind of service then please explain why CO does it and makes a profit? I was not aware of the need for extra crew from DTW to HNL and I wonder why since flight time from DTW is only 1/2 hour longer than scheduled flight time from MSP.

I think you have to ask yourself the question, If NW improves service to HNL to WBC levels will I be willing to accept the international upgrade situation for this domestic flight. (e.g. upgrades from only Y and B) I think that realistically a service improvement would be combined with this restriction.

Unless you are flying from MSP, you are only looking at a 4-5 hour flight in WBC, do you really want to only be able to upgrade from Y/B? And have it cost more?

I'm in HNL right now, I paid $700 + 35000 miles each for my wife and I to enjoy our honey moon. I'm from DTW and routed DTW>LAX>HNL>MSP>DTW (DTW>MSP>HNL was gone by the time I got my tickets at the 330 day mark).

I couldn't imagine having to drop $4000 + at least 35000, probably 70,000 miles to get out to HNL through LAX or SEA. I could see MSP being worth it only.

We got Mai Tai's pre-flight and warm cookies and milk from LAX>HNL, more than I expected.

I think the main this other have hit on is that this is a low revenue flight. LAX>HNL had 2 open seats, and I know for a fact I paid K and flew R :) I'm sure there were others up front who had done the same. Plus there were a few people from the island and I bet they used their resident upgrade certs.



I think you have to ask yourself the question, If NW improves service to HNL to WBC levels will I be willing to accept the international upgrade situation for this domestic flight. (e.g. upgrades from only Y and B) I think that realistically a service improvement would be combined with this restriction.

And if there isn't a revenue market for this kind of service then please explain why CO does it and makes a profit?

Remember that CO's major markets, EWR (NYC) and IAH are larger and more lucrative than MSP.

We got Mai Tai's pre-flight and warm cookies and milk from LAX>HNL, more than I expected.


Last year I flew NW to Hawaii on the 753 and can't say I was overly impressed - it wasn't a bad experience by any means, but could be improved. While CO has been mentioned, I haven't seen anyone mention AA (ok, I know they're OW).

I flew AA earlier this year on the HNL-LAX and LAX-HNL services with 763 equipment. For midwest customers, AA also has both ORD and DFW non-stops on the 763 equipment as well.

Seats had plenty of room on the 763 - I believe it was at least 55 inches of seat pitch (which I understand is being increased for lay-flats). Pre-departue drinkies included sparkling wine, etc. Once airborne full meal service including hot bread out of the oven - to top things off, ice cream for dessert.

I don't know about other pax, but we were on paid "A" tickets. The seating was good up front (wasn't quite WBC), but definately better than the 753's. Of the current 4 daily AA LAX-HNL flights on the schedule, 3 are 763s, one is a 757 (avoid in F for HNL)

I have no doubt it's a low yield market, but there are passengers willing to pay for a premium service. Based on my experience on this route, if I'm going to pay for F, I'm better going AA or CO (BF a/c) -- or on the one lone NW flight via MSP.

Another thing going for AA - if you have access - is the FlagShip Lounges in ORD and LAX. Each carrier has their strengths and weaknesses in different markets - and always will.

In closing, it would be nice to see NW become more competitive in the Hawaiian market with premium services. I don't expect NW to add A330's ex-LAX/SEA, but they can improve the existing 753 services. The A330 ex MSP will be a great move.

SDF_Traveler

There are true WBC services to HNL... just connect via NRT ;-)

What's to gripe about? You can't compare int'l vs domestic products -- in this case, int'l services on domestic routes. Since there's no other carrier flying MSP-HNL non-stop, NW does not see any reason to improve their services. On the other hand, several airlines serve NRT-HNL non-stop and thus, there's competition and a need to differentiate.

In closing, it would be nice to see NW become more competitive in the Hawaiian market with premium services. I don't expect NW to add A330's ex-LAX/SEA, but they can improve the existing 753 services. The A330 ex MSP will be a great move.

SDF_Traveler

I'm pretty sure NW is planning on upgrading most of their 753s for the TATL flights. Perhaps they would end up on a route like HNL-SEA-DTW-Europe?

Then you get WBC out of HNL and out of DTW to Europe and you get the "good seats" for free upgrades on some transcons like CO does (at least out of here to EWR).

Oh and seeing as NW has HNL flights to/from LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA why doesn't they add LAS? Seems like a good idea to do, esp. for a city with a lot of flights to random cities.

I'm pretty sure NW is planning on upgrading most of their 753s for the TATL flights. Perhaps they would end up on a route like HNL-SEA-DTW-Europe?


I don't think they will upgrade the 753 for TATL. I'm not sure if those will have the necessary range.

I believe they are just converting some 752s (5600 series only, I think) for TATL service.

JMHO, I don't have this information confirmed by any means.

I don't think they will upgrade the 753 for TATL. I'm not sure if those will have the necessary range.

I believe they are just converting some 752s (5600 series only, I think) for TATL service.

JMHO, I don't have this information confirmed by any means.

That is correct, the 753s don't have the range for TATL... I stand corrected I got myself mixed up... I guess that is what happens before the first cup of coffee kicks in...

Unless you are flying from MSP, you are only looking at a 4-5 hour flight in WBC, do you really want to only be able to upgrade from Y/B? And have it cost more?

I should clarify that I was referring to flights from the Midwest (MSP, DTW) where the fly time is 8-9 hours, ,not the 75x flights from the left coast.

What's to gripe about? You can't compare int'l vs domestic products -- in this case, int'l services on domestic routes. Since there's no other carrier flying MSP-HNL non-stop, NW does not see any reason to improve their services. On the other hand, several airlines serve NRT-HNL non-stop and thus, there's competition and a need to differentiate.
I think if CO can offer a watered-down int'l version of their BF on the HNL-IAH/EWR routes, why can't NW also on NW98/99 (soon to be NW808/809--in honor of our area code here in the islands)?

I think it's a matter of technical logistics... CO14/15 uses BF equipped plane around for other long hauls (Europe, SAmerica, etc). The infrastructure is already there, hence it's easy for them to offer a watered down version of their BF service.

In NW's case, it's only a matter of time till we know if the A330 serving MSP-HNL will be turned around for European or Asian routes. No sense asking for WBC services when the infrastructure isn't available.

[QUOTE=kkua]There are true WBC services to HNL... just connect via NRT ;-)
But the 747-200 on the NRT/HNL run don't have the
new sleeper seats like the 747-400 and the 330. So
it still is a compromise.

In NW's case, it's only a matter of time till we know if the A330 serving MSP-HNL will be turned around for European or Asian routes. No sense asking for WBC services when the infrastructure isn't available.
In all honestly, this doesn't make much sense. The A333 used on the NW98/99 will most certainly be used on European routes and will be equipped with Int'l WBC seating. All you'd need is to cater the flight with WBC service/food/amenities in MSP and HNL (both of which already have an existing infrastructure to do this) and wal-lah, you've got your Int'l Business Class.

It doesn't matter whether the NW98/99 will be turned around for European service; the existing infrastructure is already there.

[QUOTE=kkua]There are true WBC services to HNL... just connect via NRT ;-)
But the 747-200 on the NRT/HNL run don't have the
new sleeper seats like the 747-400 and the 330. So
it still is a compromise.
The 742 no longer services the NRT-HNL route (except for unusual flight operations--but very rare). Both NRT-HNL routes are now operated by the 747-400.

But the 747-200 on the NRT/HNL run don't have the
new sleeper seats like the 747-400 and the 330. So
it still is a compromise.
It's all 744s for NW9/10 and 21/22. But NW83/84 (Thu, Fri and Sat on winter months) is on a 742.

It's all 744s for NW9/10 and 21/22. But NW83/84 (Thu, Fri and Sat on winter months) is on a 742.
Are you sure this is the case?

From the nwa.com schedule. From HNL to:
NRT 1000a 150p 9 744 3818
NRT 1045a 240p 83 742 X7 3818
Above Eff. 12/07 and Disc. 12/13
NRT 240p 630p 21 744 3818

Meaning it will only operate on 12/7, 12/8, 12/9, 12/11, 12/13 to accommodate add'l pax for the Honolulu Marathon. Not the Thu/Fri/Sat as you indicate.

Another thing going for AA - if you have access - is the FlagShip Lounges in ORD and LAX. Each carrier has their strengths and weaknesses in different markets - and always will.

While the FL's are definitely cool, I don't believe you can access them on a Hawaii itinerary -- the only domestic flights that qualify for FL use are the transcons -- and then only if in F (non-discounted first) or Z (F award) fares.

Steve

Are you sure this is the case?

From the nwa.com schedule. From HNL to:
NRT 1000a 150p 9 744 3818
NRT 1045a 240p 83 742 X7 3818
Above Eff. 12/07 and Disc. 12/13
NRT 240p 630p 21 744 3818

Meaning it will only operate on 12/7, 12/8, 12/9, 12/11, 12/13 to accommodate add'l pax for the Honolulu Marathon. Not the Thu/Fri/Sat as you indicate.
Then, my PDA's schedule is wrong. According to my PDA (SkyTeam schedule, Palm OS version), NW83/84 runs on Thu, Fri and Sat effective 7DEC, but no end date indicated.

Then, my PDA's schedule is wrong. According to my PDA (SkyTeam schedule, Palm OS version), NW83/84 runs on Thu, Fri and Sat effective 7DEC, but no end date indicated.
Or perhaps outdated? Tried a dummy booking on nwa.com after December 13th, and the 742 flight is not listed/bookable.

Or perhaps outdated? Tried a dummy booking on nwa.com after December 13th, and the 742 flight is not listed/bookable.
I'm going to re-sync the SkyTeam data this weekend to let you know.

Where are the 744 replacing the 742 on the NRT-HNL run
coming from? Replaced by the 330? Or new purchases?
Yesterday I came in on a 744 from NRT to DTW. Usually
in front of 77 J+K is the seat for the FA facing the pax.
That's why I always try to get 77 A. I was upset this time
I was out of luck, as a matter of fact lost the seat to a NW
employee. But yesterday there was a seat in front of both
A+B as well as J+K. So, I came out alright after all. The FA
thougt that NW is pickung up additional 744 from other
airlines, so different configuration. She was not aware of
this either and she says she is flying this route for ages.

They had 2 or 3 of the 400's parked for the past year. They came back online several month ago.

They had 2 or 3 of the 400's parked for the past year. They came back online several month ago.
Thanks for the info, you surely would know. Much appreciated.