Las Vegas - Best way to stretch out run on slot machine?

Hi Guys, I know that if you get a certain amount of reward points in a 24 hr period at Harrah's casinos you can qualify for Platinum or Diamond status. I am already Diamond and would like to keep it for next year. Here is my question. When playing slots, what is the best way to stretch out your playing time and in the process accumulating points. I know $5 = 1 point and I just want to figure out what type of slots to use so you get biggest return and thus keep playing and accumulating points. I just don't gamble for points and I know slots don't have the best odds but i like them and have won in the past. By the way I also play card games and also enjoy the rest of hat LV has to offer. Any suggestions are welcome, thanks.

Hi Guys, I know that if you get a certain amount of reward points in a 24 hr period at Harrah's casinos you can qualify for Platinum or Diamond status. I am already Diamond and would like to keep it for next year. Here is my question. When playing slots, what is the best way to stretch out your playing time and in the process accumulating points. I know $5 = 1 point and I just want to figure out what type of slots to use so you get biggest return and thus keep playing and accumulating points. I just don't gamble for points and I know slots don't have the best odds but i like them and have won in the past. By the way I also play card games and also enjoy the rest of hat LV has to offer. Any suggestions are welcome, thanks.

If you made Diamond this year, June or later (by regular 10,000 Tier or DIAD); your Diamond Status is good until March 2008.

To retain Diamond (in future years) you must earn the 10,000 Tier Points (DIAD is a one time thing).

There is NO way to stretch out playing time w/ regard to the accumulation of tier credits --- if you are lucky (i.e. are winning) --- that will stretch out your playing time... otherwise, you'll have to keep feeding the machines.

The only advice would be to learn perfect (or near perfect) playing strategy for Video Poker and find machines with the correct pay tables. Now, that can be another challenge at Harrah's properties (particuarly in lower denominations) --- but, Caesars still has a good selection in the "Garage Casino" -- and at the $5 (and a few $1 machines) and up level, you still have a number of options at other Harrahs properties. Of course, Video Poker is 1 point = $10; but it is still a much better deal than regular slots --- which have returns that never approach the level of full pay (or close to full pay) Video Poker.

Earning Tier Points at table games is very difficult; and would require substantial time at the tables (BJ, Dice, Baccarat, Let it Ride etc. etc.) and substantial average bets (solid $100 to $200 average). IIRC, you don't earn anything (w/ respect to Tier Points) for Poker.

Sorry for ignorance but what is DIAD? Also, according to Rio if you get 1800 points in day you get Diamond for the year. I am just trying to figure out how much it would take to play $5 slots to get 1800 points considering the percentage return, I figure about 2-4K. Does that sound about right?




If you made Diamond this year, June or later (by regular 10,000 Tier or DIAD); your Diamond Status is good until March 2008.

To retain Diamond (in future years) you must earn the 10,000 Tier Points (DIAD is a one time thing).

There is NO way to stretch out playing time w/ regard to the accumulation of tier credits --- if you are lucky (i.e. are winning) --- that will stretch out your playing time... otherwise, you'll have to keep feeding the machines.

The only advice would be to learn perfect (or near perfect) playing strategy for Video Poker and find machines with the correct pay tables. Now, that can be another challenge at Harrah's properties (particuarly in lower denominations) --- but, Caesars still has a good selection in the "Garage Casino" -- and at the $5 (and a few $1 machines) and up level, you still have a number of options at other Harrahs properties. Of course, Video Poker is 1 point = $10; but it is still a much better deal than regular slots --- which have returns that never approach the level of full pay (or close to full pay) Video Poker.

Earning Tier Points at table games is very difficult; and would require substantial time at the tables (BJ, Dice, Baccarat, Let it Ride etc. etc.) and substantial average bets (solid $100 to $200 average). IIRC, you don't earn anything (w/ respect to Tier Points) for Poker.

Sorry for ignorance but what is DIAD? Also, according to Rio if you get 1800 points in day you get Diamond for the year. I am just trying to figure out how much it would take to play $5 slots to get 1800 points considering the percentage return, I figure about 2-4K. Does that sound about right?

DIAD is Diamond in a day
PIAD is Platinum in a day

The amount for DIAD and PIAD changed in July 2006; per the Harrah's website : The Daily Tier criteria is 3000 Base Reward Credits in one day for Diamond and 2000 Base Reward Credits in one day for Platinum. This criteria is standard for all Harrah's properties across the nation.

So, for DIAD, you would need 3,000 Base (Tier) Credits
or $10 x 3,000 = $30,000 Coin-In at Video Poker or
$5 x 3,000 = $15,000 Coin-In at Reel Slots

So, if you played a $5 Reel Slot Machine (like a $5 wheel of fortune) x 3 lines ($15 per spin) you would make Diamond after 1000 Spins. --- and without getting into returns or variance or anything else... be prepared, you could lose a lot of $$$$ doing this.

I am already Diamond and would like to keep it for next year. Here is my question.

This sort of confused me... if you are already Diamond when did you qualify ?? NOT sure you can re-qualify with the DIAD; in either case, you should be pretty familiar with the above information w/ respect to Tier Credits and Slot Play. ;)

edit to add :

You might want to check out this LINK (http://jacquelinepassey.blogs.com/gambling/2006/06/harrahs_total_r_2.html) ; this "might" be a worst case scenario, but they spent (lost) $6,400 trying to achieve Diamond in a day.
to quote "In the end we finished down a total of $6400 – Terrence lost about $4000 of that, and I lost about $2400. I hope there are some video poker expects out there who can calculate for us exactly how badly we did ($38,000 wagered with a 99.46% expected return on $5 5-play for maximum coins) but my guestimate is that our result was probably about two standard deviations below the mean."

Unlike a mileage run -- where you pay a certain $$$ and get a certain amount of mileage, which in turn gets you status --- Casino Status is a much riskier business... if things don't go right.. you can wind up risking (LOSING) much more than the value of the status.

Why don't you ask them how much it costs to "buy" status, then you won't have to mistreat the nerves in your gluteus, damage your intellect and waste your time at the slots, of all man's potential pursuits, certainly among the least pleasant (and given the odds, favoring the house more than almost any other game, about like rolling chips down the face of Hoover Dam for a thrill).

Why don't you ask them how much it costs to "buy" status, then you won't have to mistreat the nerves in your gluteus, damage your intellect and waste your time at the slots, of all man's potential pursuits, certainly among the least pleasant (and given the odds, favoring the house more than almost any other game, about like rolling chips down the face of Hoover Dam for a thrill).

That really isn't a nice or fair thing to say. :rolleyes: I don't play reel slots; but, I also respect the fact that some people derive entertainment (and pleasure) from Slot Machines... that being said, I "personally" find golf to be a very silly game.. ya'know hitting a little ball into a hole very far away... and, to use your terms "of all man's potential pursuits, certainly among the least pleasant." -- but, I respect the fact that others enjoy golf immensely, even if it costs them a lot of money in membership and greens fees.

and, you can't buy status. :D (though, you might be able to bribe someone for status... ;) )

For video poker use "Perfect Play". You must do five coin play, and use a 9/6 machine.

You can practice on your laptop by purchasing the BVS video poker simulator. It will warn you when you have made a play mistake and also does hand analysis for you. The rules for pefect play are easy to learn.

Be careful what you wish for, you may be at machine for 10 hours before you bust out.

M8

DIAD is Diamond in a day
PIAD is Platinum in a day

The amount for DIAD and PIAD changed in July 2006; per the Harrah's website : The Daily Tier criteria is 3000 Base Reward Credits in one day for Diamond and 2000 Base Reward Credits in one day for Platinum. This criteria is standard for all Harrah's properties across the nation.

So, for DIAD, you would need 3,000 Base (Tier) Credits
or $10 x 3,000 = $30,000 Coin-In at Video Poker or
$5 x 3,000 = $15,000 Coin-In at Reel Slots

So, if you played a $5 Reel Slot Machine (like a $5 wheel of fortune) x 3 lines ($15 per spin) you would make Diamond after 1000 Spins. --- and without getting into returns or variance or anything else... be prepared, you could lose a lot of $$$$ doing this.



This sort of confused me... if you are already Diamond when did you qualify ?? NOT sure you can re-qualify with the DIAD; in either case, you should be pretty familiar with the above information w/ respect to Tier Credits and Slot Play. ;)

edit to add :

You might want to check out this LINK (http://jacquelinepassey.blogs.com/gambling/2006/06/harrahs_total_r_2.html) ; this "might" be a worst case scenario, but they spent (lost) $6,400 trying to achieve Diamond in a day.
to quote "In the end we finished down a total of $6400 – Terrence lost about $4000 of that, and I lost about $2400. I hope there are some video poker expects out there who can calculate for us exactly how badly we did ($38,000 wagered with a 99.46% expected return on $5 5-play for maximum coins) but my guestimate is that our result was probably about two standard deviations below the mean."

Unlike a mileage run -- where you pay a certain $$$ and get a certain amount of mileage, which in turn gets you status --- Casino Status is a much riskier business... if things don't go right.. you can wind up risking (LOSING) much more than the value of the status.



Hi Mark, I guess if my goal is to get DIAD on New Years weekend with minimal risk I should play 9/6 JoB instead of slots. Do you recommend any websites or programs for training in video poker? Also, what denomination do you recommend I play? Thanks for your great advice.

All I can add is the game of choice for locals: Double Double Video Poker.
And as mentioned, check the machines - the best are those that offer 45 coins for a full house.

If you play the machines correctly, you can sometimes play a long time, and that is, after all, the only way to rack up points on your card.

I agree..download and practice, but trust me on this, DOUBLE DOUBLE Video Poker...not the other video poker games. Also look to see if there are progressive machines (on quarter machines, minimum of $1000 for Royal Flush, and minimum of $500 for 4 Aces with a 2, 3 or 4). Do the math on dollar or five dollar machines.

That said, I have personally had some luck in playing the video version of keno...play eight numbers, four quarters (one dollar) per game (or do dollars or more, but always 4 coins max)...4 gets your money back and 8/8 gets you $10,000 on quarters (I have hit twice this year!). You can sometimes even play a long time without winning "big", but still rack up the points and come out ahead. Mindless fun, but great if you want to talk with someone while you are playing and not have to concentrate. My personal tip: pick your eight numbers and stick with them. Don't change numbers.

All I can add is the game of choice for locals: Double Double Video Poker.
And as mentioned, check the machines - the best are those that offer 45 coins for a full house.

If you play the machines correctly, you can sometimes play a long time, and that is, after all, the only way to rack up points on your card.

I agree..download and practice, but trust me on this, DOUBLE DOUBLE Video Poker...not the other video poker games. Also look to see if there are progressive machines (on quarter machines, minimum of $1000 for Royal Flush, and minimum of $500 for 4 Aces with a 2, 3 or 4). Do the math on dollar or five dollar machines.



I play Double Double Bonus, too, but the swings can get pretty wild on that -- the winning is big, the losing is big. If you're not patient, it can be losing a lot.

I think Jacks or Better is more in the slow-churn category.

In any case, if you don't know how to play near perfectly, you might as well save time and just write a check to the casino. I use Bob Dancer Win Poker to practice.

Full-pay VP machines are rare as hen's teeth, on the Strip, these days.
And on blackjacks, Strip casinos pay 6 to 5, or One & 1/5 to One.
Most off-strip casinos pay 6 - 4, or One & 1/2 to One, termed 3 - 2.

Full-pay VP machines are rare as hen's teeth, on the Strip, these days.
And on blackjacks, Strip casinos pay 6 to 5, or One & 1/5 to One.
Most off-strip casinos pay 6 - 4, or One & 1/2 to One, termed 3 - 2.

Not playing slots etc at all, I dont know what this means at all. What do you mean 'full-pay' etc? Is that supposed to mean that if you play the perfect game you'll break even??

Not playing slots etc at all, I dont know what this means at all. What do you mean 'full-pay' etc? Is that supposed to mean that if you play the perfect game you'll break even??

It is the odds payoffs for various games. Strip hotels often shave some payouts, normally on full houses or flushes.

For example, full pay double double video poker pays (assuming you're playing 5 coins) 45 for a full house, 30 for a flush. Most strip hotels pay 25 on the flush; sometimes the full house is 40.

I've seen full play machines at the Palms and at the Hard Rock (some machines, not every one). The Palms has some quarter machines that pay 50 on a full house, so they actually pay back more than 100% on perfect play.

The full pay machines are becoming rarer, but they can still be found. Here is a list of them. Click on the casino of your choice, and find any full pay machines.
http://tinyurl.com/lqwsw

I wouldn't advise you to go in and play VP if you aren't seasoned at it. Perfect play is based on mathematics, and meant to keep you playing until you eventually hit something good. I play perfect, and sometimes it takes thousands of hands to catch back up. Your bankroll should be large, or stick to the slots. (I never thought I'd say that to someone). :)

Kurt

Is it ok to use a reference sheet for correct play at a VP machine?

Is it ok to use a reference sheet for correct play at a VP machine?

I don't think there are any rules against it, but the sheet would probably be complex. Different games have different strategies, and the strategy will vary if the payoffs change (you play differently if flushes pay 25 vs. 30, for example, on DDVP).

A good head for math and understanding of statistics help quite a bit.

Using charts/reference cards is a good idea; but you should probably have "most" of the decisions down pat --- only using the card for a reference when you get "stuck." That being said, variance, IMHO, is a far bigger problem (since it can have an incredible effect on bankroll) than short pay. With that in mind; while Double Bonus full pay payback is 100.17% (i.e. POSITIVE EXPECTATION... and that doesn't even count comp's earned) --- I still would NOT suggest a novice get involved w/ the higher variance full pay machines.

For example, 9/6 JoB (Jacks or Better) has a payback of 99.54% --- and is much easier to play and has much lower variance. Dropping down to 8/5 JoB your payback drops to 97.30% --- this is still NOT bad, in comparison to reel slots, which can have paybacks as low as 80% to 85%.

Another good point to remember is that many of the Strip casinos that now offer only short-pay versions (9/5, 8/5, or even 7/5) of JOB still offer 8/5 Bonus Poker (BP), which is less attractive than 9/6 JOB, but more playable than short-pay JOB. The neat thing is that the game can be played with JOB strategy, with negligible loss of return. Played perfectly, 8/5 BP returns 99.166%. Played with JoB strategy, it returns 99.162%. So, when you learn JoB strategy, you're really learning to play two widely available games.

The VPFree reference pages (http://members.cox.net/vpfree/LV.htm) give a very good rundown of what is available.

If you step up to machines that are greater than $1; than you will have NO problem finding full pay or close to full pay on the strip. Of course, playing $5 Video Poker requires nerves of steel --- but, if you get a bit lucky, you can easily accumulate those Harrah's Tier Credits... Not unusual to make Harrah's Diamond in under 3 hours playing $5 JoB --- but, be prepared to have a nice amount of $$$$$; since even w/ a low variance game like JoB; you do hit dry spells.

In any case, LUCK is more important than skill in the short term. Wish that wasn't the case, but if you sit down and hit a royal right away; you will be set for your playing session.

Using charts/reference cards is a good idea; but you should probably have "most" of the decisions down pat --- only using the card for a reference when you get "stuck." That being said, variance, IMHO, is a far bigger problem (since it can have an incredible effect on bankroll) than short pay. With that in mind; while Double Bonus full pay payback is 100.17% (i.e. POSITIVE EXPECTATION... and that doesn't even count comp's earned) --- I still would NOT suggest a novice get involved w/ the higher variance full pay machines.

For example, 9/6 JoB (Jacks or Better) has a payback of 99.54% --- and is much easier to play and has much lower variance. Dropping down to 8/5 JoB your payback drops to 97.30% --- this is still NOT bad, in comparison to reel slots, which can have paybacks as low as 80% to 85%.

Another good point to remember is that many of the Strip casinos that now offer only short-pay versions (9/5, 8/5, or even 7/5) of JOB still offer 8/5 Bonus Poker (BP), which is less attractive than 9/6 JOB, but more playable than short-pay JOB. The neat thing is that the game can be played with JOB strategy, with negligible loss of return. Played perfectly, 8/5 BP returns 99.166%. Played with JoB strategy, it returns 99.162%. So, when you learn JoB strategy, you're really learning to play two widely available games.

The VPFree reference pages (http://members.cox.net/vpfree/LV.htm) give a very good rundown of what is available.

If you step up to machines that are greater than $1; than you will have NO problem finding full pay or close to full pay on the strip. Of course, playing $5 Video Poker requires nerves of steel --- but, if you get a bit lucky, you can easily accumulate those Harrah's Tier Credits... Not unusual to make Harrah's Diamond in under 3 hours playing $5 JoB --- but, be prepared to have a nice amount of $$$$$; since even w/ a low variance game like JoB; you do hit dry spells.

In any case, LUCK is more important than skill in the short term. Wish that wasn't the case, but if you sit down and hit a royal right away; you will be set for your playing session.

Does Rio have full pay JoB in the high limit area? I am thinking of only taking 4-5k in cash, do you think that is enough bankroll to play full pay $5 JoB in short play 3-5hrs or should I just stay with reel slots? One more thing, where do I get a real good training program for VP? I appreciate all the help guys just trying to minimize possible losses, thanks.

Does Rio have full pay JoB in the high limit area? I am thinking of only taking 4-5k in cash, do you think that is enough bankroll to play full pay $5 JoB in short play 3-5hrs or should I just stay with reel slots? One more thing, where do I get a real good training program for VP? I appreciate all the help guys just trying to minimize possible losses, thanks.

YES, in the High Limit slot room (at RIO) they have $5, $25 and $100 9/6 JoB [the $100 is 3 line max I "think" --- the $5 (which I play) is 5-line for $25 per spin/deal] -- there is also some multi-line spin poker ($1) which is 9/5 (near the Masquerade elevators), IIRC; this is one of my favorites. I think the STP (Super Times Pay) is also 9/5 ---- you might want to also check those out (near the Carnival Buffet)

For software, I like Optimum Video Poker by Dan Paymar (http://www.advantageplayer.com/videopoker/index.html?optimumplay); it is also one of the few products that actually works on Macintosh; though, still in the old OS 9 Classic environment.

With 5K; I would initially devote 1K to 9/6 Job; setting a loss limit of around $600 --- if things are going really bad, I would take a break; and then devote a 2nd 1K to a multi-line $1 machine playing 3 or 5 lines. For kicks, I might devote $500 or so to $1 Wheel of Fortune. I tend to go w/ the flow, and if I'm not having much luck, I prefer to have a pre determined loss limit; and to come back at a later time. Of course, I break up my VP play with some sessions at the tables. Others might disagree, and just suggest plugging away with the entire 5K at the $5 9/6 JoB machines; since the variance is rather low, you would have to be very unlucky to not at least hit something... even a few 4 of a kinds would set you up pretty well for an extended session... though, 5K is ONLY "200" hands at max coin ($5 x 5 per hand) but, always remember... anything can (and will) happen.

Does Rio have full pay JoB in the high limit area? I am thinking of only taking 4-5k in cash, do you think that is enough bankroll to play full pay $5 JoB in short play 3-5hrs or should I just stay with reel slots? One more thing, where do I get a real good training program for VP? I appreciate all the help guys just trying to minimize possible losses, thanks.

That's plenty, but if you're a novice, I would suggest starting with the 25 cent machine to get a feel for the game. If you're puzzled by what to do, practice some more. If you're doing well, move up to $1 or $5.

(I like to mix it up between 5-line $1, 3-line $2 and 1-line $5).

YES, in the High Limit slot room (at RIO) they have $5, $25 and $100 9/6 JoB [the $100 is 3 line max I "think" --- the $5 (which I play) is 5-line for $25 per spin/deal] -- there is also some multi-line spin poker ($1) which is 9/5 (near the Masquerade elevators), IIRC; this is one of my favorites. I think the STP (Super Times Pay) is also 9/5 ---- you might want to also check those out (near the Carnival Buffet)

For software, I like Optimum Video Poker by Dan Paymar (http://www.advantageplayer.com/videopoker/index.html?optimumplay); it is also one of the few products that actually works on Macintosh; though, still in the old OS 9 Classic environment.

With 5K; I would initially devote 1K to 9/6 Job; setting a loss limit of around $600 --- if things are going really bad, I would take a break; and then devote a 2nd 1K to a multi-line $1 machine playing 3 or 5 lines. For kicks, I might devote $500 or so to $1 Wheel of Fortune. I tend to go w/ the flow, and if I'm not having much luck, I prefer to have a pre determined loss limit; and to come back at a later time. Of course, I break up my VP play with some sessions at the tables. Others might disagree, and just suggest plugging away with the entire 5K at the $5 9/6 JoB machines; since the variance is rather low, you would have to be very unlucky to not at least hit something... even a few 4 of a kinds would set you up pretty well for an extended session... though, 5K is ONLY "200" hands at max coin ($5 x 5 per hand) but, always remember... anything can (and will) happen.

Thanks guys, your advice has been invaluable. I will try DIAD in Dec by trying video poker most likely JoB. I guess i have to start practicing every day. I will look to buy software very soon.

Is it ok to use a reference sheet for correct play at a VP machine?

Yes. However if you have to be using that sheet, then you will not be playing fast enough. Best to practice on a simulator so that it becomes second nature to you.

M8

Here are some good VP trainers:

Bob Dancer's Win Poker (has a free demo version)
http://www.zamzone.com/

Jean Scott-Queen of Comps
http://queenofcomps.com/

Kurt