MilesBuzz! - 2 Puzzling Questions about 9/11

I have had two questions for months in regard to 9/11.
1. How did the terrorists know specifically how to locate and fly into the Pentagon and WTC? If they were above the clouds and only had minimal flight training, how could they truly even locate DC or NYC from hundreds of miles away?
2. I am puzzled about all of the reports of the cell phone calls from the PA flight that crashed. I have frequently looked at my ATT Wireless cellphone while in the air, and it always reads "No service".

Any opinions?

1. Apparently, they used hand-held GPS devices to locate their positions.

2. Cellphones do work in the air. The Wall Street Journal had an article about this a few years ago. At cruise altitude, you would be 6 miles or so from the nearest antenna, which could be a problem, but closer to the gound, they should work fine.

Bruce

since i work in the wireless industry, i will offer sage information on the latter query. the reason they don't want you to make phone calls from the air are two fold. it doesn't interfere with flight controls.

the reasons are: (1) they are trying to hog $ ($ = money) for their own phone service and (2) the wireless network on the ground not only "sees" your phone, but the network sees your phone TOO well. instead of only two or three cell sites seeing you, tens of cell sites can see you since you are so high and the network would crash. most people go to the windows in a tall building to make a call. in reality, if you are in a good area you should go to the center of the building. at the windows, too many cell sites can see you and it gets confused. from the center of the building, only the strongest cells will be picked up.

[This message has been edited by fly co to see the yanks (edited 02-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by fly co to see the yanks (edited 02-19-2002).]

FCTSTY, is your name Mark (not another one!) ######? A little Irish blood in yer? Have a pint or two before posting? I thought you worked in finance?


[In order to protect the privacy of the individual referred to, his last name was edited out - MODERATOR2]

[This message has been edited by Moderator2 (edited 02-20-2002).]

I remember that September 11 was clear and sunny all up and down the East Coast...no clouds.

At least one of the planes that hit the WTC appeared to turn South over the Hudson and flew right down to NYC.

GPS probably helped a bunch.

We don't know but what the hijackers forced the crews to help navigate, at least part of the way. Especially if the hijackers told them that they were simply "flying to JFK/DCA," etc. without letting on about the targets.

Don't look for GPS to be allowed on AA for quite a long time, even though it does not interfere with navigation.

I imagine they practiced with Microsoft Flight Simluator.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FWAAA:
I remember that September 11 was clear and sunny all up and down the East Coast...no clouds.

At least one of the planes that hit the WTC appeared to turn South over the Hudson and flew right down to NYC.

GPS probably helped a bunch.

We don't know but what the hijackers forced the crews to help navigate, at least part of the way. Especially if the hijackers told them that they were simply "flying to JFK/DCA," etc. without letting on about the targets.

Don't look for GPS to be allowed on AA for quite a long time, even though it does not interfere with navigation.</font>

HUH? Never had a problem with my GPS on AA nor have anybody I know that flys with a GPS. I allways ask first before using it. Somtimes pilots send me back a printout to help.

And with the correct manuals (which I think they found in a car) I am sure the planes own GPS could be used as well.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by QuietLion:
I imagine they practiced with Microsoft Flight Simluator.</font>

Or Terminal Reality's "Fly"

I seem to remember in the case of the Pentagon crash, that the plane did overshoot, went east, banked back and THEN crashed. The interview I saw suggested that their actual target was probably the White House, but they "settled" for the Pentagon..

I believe some of the calls were made using the onboard phones, the ones built into the seat backs.

------------------
He that travels fastest goes alone!

MRLIMO: that's true, but mobiles will work, too, in many cases.

I used to fly BOS-SFO every week. On a clear day, you could see right down the Hudson and the twin towers in the distance. This is from the airspace up around Albany.

Additionally, the Hudson is an enormous landmark. Not too hard to follow it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fastflyer:
I used to fly BOS-SFO every week. On a clear day, you could see right down the Hudson and the twin towers in the distance. This is from the airspace up around Albany.

Additionally, the Hudson is an enormous landmark. Not too hard to follow it.</font>


Some airline or government official said on CNN that following the Hudson River is in fact an easy way of going right to the WTC.

The hijackers of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon could have used the Washington Monument as their reference point from many miles away.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Law Lord:
The hijackers of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon could have used the Washington Monument as their reference point from many miles away. </font>

Wasn't the theory presented on the Pentagon was that they didn't think it was the target that the White Hours or Capital was and it was missed? The Pentagon was some type of back up target, impossible to miss because of it's size?

There were also stories that the people had all purchased the same model of GPS's before the event from a couple of shops in Flordia.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by GB:
If they were above the clouds &lt;...snip&gt;</font> The weather was crystal clear that day.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Neal:

Some airline or government official said on CNN that following the Hudson River is in fact an easy way of going right to the WTC.</font>

The diagrams shown on the news in the days after (which were presumably constructed from ATC info) showed that the planes appeared to make a clear line right down the Hudson. Not sure about the DC and PA planes, but visual navigation definitely appeared to be the method for the two WTC planes.

The DC flight also followed a path. According to the Washington Post they followed I-95/395 straight up from north of Richmond. They apparently never veered or turned around. They believe the original intent was always the Pentagon, it was large and an easy route without having to turn around to find the White House.

chowda's got it right, or at least consistent with what the media reports eventually settled on. There were early reports/rumors that the Pentagon plane circled the Capitol/aimed at the White House/etc., but they apparently weren't true. As someone who works one block from the White House, I can assure you that I followed these reports.

And 9/11 was an absolutely clear day in DC.

chodaw,

If the Pentagon was always their primary target, why do you suppose they would have crashed into the side away from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, into an area that was being reinforced?

Since this information was publicly available, and since they otherwise appeared to plan fairly meticulously, it strikes me as an unexplainable oversight.

Kind of on the topic of things that one doesn't quite understand from that day...has anyone been able to think of a 'logical' purpose for taking cash out of an ATM in an airport just prior to boarding with the intent of crashing the plane?

You probably remember the still images of the ATM withdrawals I'm referring to.

It just doesn't make sense to me...then again very little does about that day.

I saw a long interview w/ the ATC who had that flight and it definitely overshot, turned around and came back - according to her..

At the Dulles tower, O'Brien saw the TV pictures from New York and headed back to her post to help other planes quickly land.

"We started moving the planes as quickly as we could," she says. "Then I noticed the aircraft. It was an unidentified plane to the southwest of Dulles, moving at a very high rate of speed … I had literally a blip and nothing more."

O'Brien asked the controller sitting next to her, Tom Howell, if he saw it too.

"I said, 'Oh my God, it looks like he's headed to the White House,'" recalls Howell. "I was yelling … 'We've got a target headed right for the White House!'"

At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, protected air space 56, which covers the White House and the Capitol.

"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

The plane was between 12 and 14 miles away, says O'Brien, "and it was just a countdown. Ten miles west. Nine miles west … Our supervisor picked up our line to the White House and started relaying to them the information, [that] we have an unidentified very fast-moving aircraft inbound toward your vicinity, 8 miles west."

Vice President Cheney was rushed to a special basement bunker. White House staff members were told to run away from the building.

"And it went six, five, four. And I had it in my mouth to say, three, and all of a sudden the plane turned away. In the room, it was almost a sense of relief. This must be a fighter. This must be one of our guys sent in, scrambled to patrol our capital, and to protect our president, and we sat back in our chairs and breathed for just a second," says O'Brien.

But the plane continued to turn right until it had made a 360-degree maneuver.

"We lost radar contact with that aircraft. And we waited. And we waited. And your heart is just beating out of your chest waiting to hear what's happened," says O'Brien. "And then the Washington National [Airport] controllers came over our speakers in our room and said, 'Dulles, hold all of our inbound traffic. The Pentagon's been hit.'"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_011024_atc_feature.html