MilesBuzz! - Reluctant to start yet another thread like this, BUT....

In reading all these other threads, I think we should examine the goals of FT.

My understanding is that we are a community of travel nuts who are loyal to one airline or another. Now I would hope that loyalty means that we have a relationship (of sorts) with the airline, and that we enjoy the benefits of FF perks.

So I look forward to sharing ideas, promotions, frustrations, and methods of coping.

But I think others see FT as a community that seeks to exploit loopholes, screw the airlines, and take advantage of computer glitches.

No, things are not always black and white, and I am the first to admit I have not always acted ethically.

But I am curious. Do you all see yourselves as with the airlines or against them? And how do you see FT?

I (most of the time) am with them, and I let them know it in writing.

[This message has been edited by zrs70 (edited 02-15-2002).]

I want to be with the airlines but unfortunately my airline of "choice"* doesn't always act in ways that promote this desire.

Dorian


*being in Canada and forced into a virtual monopoly situation this word is subjective



------------------
The Global Lounge Project (https://www.quickbase.com/db/6vcfnaqu) - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart (http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm) - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart (http://members.shaw.ca/deercroft/download.html) - by Blondebomber
Air Canada CrACker (https://www.quickbase.com/db/7n2dvqrd) - by Empress supported by Dorian

As always, zrs70 poses a good question.

I am neither with the airlines (as a class) nor against them. I am neither their friend nor their foe.

I am their customer.

I expect the service that the airlines promise, and will complain when I do not receive it. I will compliment them when I receive better service than advertised.

I expect better service from my home airline in accordance with the benefits that it advertises to its frequent flyers. I will cheerfully accept its additional unpublished or incidental benefits (for example, preference for operational upgrades), but I do not see myself entitled to those unofficial benefits, for I believe that the airline gives them to me not to reward my past custom, but to encourage me to continue to choose it over others.

Put another way, I support my home airline not as an altruist but as part of a partly-unspoken business agreement in which we both win.

Airlines are a way to get from Point A to Point B... they are not my friends. Hotels are a place to me to stay when I travel, not my home.

Therefore, if there is a legal way for me to get: 1) better service, 2) more perks, or 3) cheaper rates, then I am going to do it.

For example, I took part in the Goldpoints end of the year promo... why? because I could... it was perfectly legal and advertized.

about computer glitches... assume you went to computer store (i.e. CompUSA) to buy something like MS Office... when you got there it was mislabeled as $49.99 rather than $499.99... would you accept the manager telling you that it is $499.99? or would you make them abide by the letter of the law and force them to 1) accept $49.99 and 2) change the sign for future customers.

I sure as hell know that I'd be paying $49.99. Business is business and money is money, that's all it comes down to. I don't have a love affair with any travel partner... quite the opposite, they should feel that way about me, and most of the time they don't... so every once in a while we get over on each other...

do you think they feel bad for you when you're trying to get somewhere on 6 days notice and they tell you the fare is $2,300? then I don't shed a tear when the pricing is all f'ed up and that trip is mistakenly $23.00...

basically our relationship is one where we agree that we will take advantage of each other at every opportunity possible...

[This message has been edited by EWR-COflyer (edited 02-15-2002).]

I see my relationship with the airlines as similar to my relationship with the I.R.S.

That is, I do not avoid my tax obligations, but I do plan each year so as to minimize my tax burden. Similarly, I use FT to plan so as to maximize the benefits available from the airlines.

I do think there are certain things that come up on FT that are in a grey area between right and wrong, and there are other things that clearly cross the line. My subjective approach is to avoid both these situations, but keep it clean while still getting as much out of this as I can.

Outstanding! Initial responses all thoughtful. I tend to use FT as a way to learn about legal ways to do things that are often unadvertised....such as promotions not posted on the official websites, and to trade success stories. Does this sometimes mean "bending" some rules? Yes, but for me anyway, only when a bona fide rep of the airline or hotel is supporting me in the process.

I see FT as providing valuable info on getting the most value for my dollars:

nothing different from supermarket customers who clip coupons, scout out which chain has the best weekly deals on particular items, which stores double coupons, etc.

And the travel reports, political discussions, etc. are entertaining and educating as well.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by EWR-COflyer:
about computer glitches... assume you went to computer store (i.e. CompUSA) to buy something like MS Office... when you got there it was mislabeled as $49.99 rather than $499.99... would you accept the manager telling you that it is $499.99? or would you make them abide by the letter of the law and force them to 1) accept $49.99 and 2) change the sign for future customers.
</font>

Care to cite the applicable law that says stores must honor human errors like that? I see newspaper ads noting errors in previously printed ads all the time; I assume that the stores are not legally required to honor those geniune mistakes. In the threads discussing travel pricing errors previously, they've mostly involved situations where not only was there a $23.00 fare "published" in the computer reservation system, but the customer actually completed the purchase transaction with the vendor's own transaction engine. The analogy here would be that you took a $49.99 Microsoft Office package to the cashier, and he rang it up at that price, and you left the store, and only the next day does the store catch the error and retroactively bills the difference to your credit card without your authorization.

deleted

[This message has been edited by pointman (edited 02-15-2002).]

Each year I am 90-95% loyal to United, even though tickets with them (Remember, I am in Colorado) are routinely more expensive than those I could purchase from another airline.

With that said, then look at all the "rules" United has about this and that...which are obviously meant for their protection and benefit. Nothing is really legally binding, but rather they are only "airline rules".

As I posted in another topic, by flying my
100+ segments each year, almost always at an additional cost to stay "loyal" with United as a 1K, I thus "earn" my six SWUs. Yet even then United then proceeds to tell me what I can or cannot do with them (i.e, you CANNOT barter them).

In troubled times like these, I am particularly more sympathetic towards airlines and their hardworking employees.
Despite their increasing restrictions and complex fare rules, some of the past promotions (post-9/11) have been unbelievable. The Mileage Run forum benefited the most during the systemwide double mileage promo, for example.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I see FT as a great resource to learn more about airlines, policy and procedure, flying, and knowing when you are getting ripped off. Best of all, it's a place where I can communicate openly about this unhealthy fixation that we dare not tell our co-workers/peers. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

There are a few things that I dislike about FT, namely the hypocrisy that goes on around here. Users that insist on throwing weight around, sometimes going as far as to put down other fliers ("2Ps don't fly/spend as much as 1Ks, so their opinions don't count as much"). People that display sympathy for their airline of choice.. but turn around and try to squeeze an SWU out because their seat didn't recline or their seat light didn't work ("What do you think this is worth - an upgrade, right??"). I just hope that some FTers appreciate the advantage they have over airlines that need their business even more than ever.

On the other hand, I'm also thankful we have such diversity in opinions. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Last I checked there is no loyalty in Capitalism. I fly an airline based on the advantages to me. I have no problem changing airlines. I also have no problem taking advantage of "grey" area situations such as pricng errors. I am sure the airlines don't lose sleep when I buy a last minute restricted coach ticket for $1500 dollars while the guy next to me paid $220.

I think FT is a great resource for any travel info. I have learned more about how to fly and use the travel system to my advantage in 1yr than all my previous years of travel. I have saved a ton of money and I have maximized my benefits in the programs i patronize.
The only negative that I see in FT is the polarization in some forums caused by some of the "elite" flyers toward non-elite flyers.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by zrs70:
But I am curious. Do you all see yourselves as with the airlines or against them? And how do you see FT?
</font>

I see FT as the best resource for all kinds of travel info. You get each and every question answered here instantly from nice people who are really willing to help. If you need to know if the Ching Ching Hotel in Chong Chong in China has high-speed internet or not you will find this out here -- if you call the hotel, they maybe wont be able to answer the question by themselves. In return, I also take time myself to answer questions a lot.

Last example: I was just booking a Hyatt hotel in H.K. yesterday and the lady asked me in which of their two properties in H.K. I would like to stay. I told her to stand by, just put "Hongkong" in the search line in the Hyatt forum and was able to tell here that I like to choose the "Grand Hyatt" in less then 100 seconds of cross-reading the posts. This is great! Who else could answer this question? I am sure the lady in the callcenter has no idea how the hotels in H.K. are like.

Furthermore, I use to "validate" my own information. If I have a bad experience somewhere, I can find out if this airline/hotel/carrental is filthy all the time, or if I only ran into them on a "bad day".

To add one more important thing: I feel I am talking to people here who have similiar problems or thoughts than I have. I am 29 years old and doing business since 11 years -- a lot of my friends are still in university or just starting a job. I cannot talk to them about miles, tier points or free booze in a regency club -- they would consider me to be totally "out of reality". People who only fly charter to a sunny island once a year do not understand why I need to know which seat is the best in F class on SQ from JFK to FRA. Much more to say about this, but I think you know what I want to stress out so I leave FT´s harddisk space for someone else´s commments (:

I'm a strictly leisure traveler so the accounting for expenses and what I'm willing to spend is my choice. Perhaps this influences my opinion.

I try to be a nice guy, sometimes I fail. I try to do/say the right thing, sometimes I don't. I try to plan correctly, sometimes I screw up. I try to remember that when I give rather than take I get much more back, sometimes I forget.

For me, the airlines and other services are a group of people who, for the most part, really try to make my life better, sometimes they don't. I find that when I walk down the street with a smile I get a lot of smiles back and when I have a chip on my shoulder there is someone who'll knock it off for me.

I guess this makes me for them and for FT http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

As far as FT goes, I find that I learn something everytime I log on. Many times it has nothing to do with travel. I'm grateful for FT and the people here.

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by drtravels (edited 02-16-2002).]

Pshuang, there are laws in many U.S. states that require a store to honor the price shown on a shelf or a sign inside a store. In fact, if a computer scanner charges you a higher price, you are supposed to get the item free. I do believe you are correct that there is an exception for a printing mistake in a newspaper, but not if they display the newspaper in front of the shelf.

It's not a case of being for or against. There are many good ideas shared here about this hotel, the best seat, etc. Not everybody is here to screw the airlines.

That being said, there isn't any reason for the airlines to set it up so you can screw them. I don't for a minute believe that all the computer glitches are actually glitches, I think some are very tightly controled marketing tests. For way less then the cost of focus groups, they can load a $29 fare, and then by watching here and a few other places see how long it takes to be noticed, and how fast it spreads, where people heard about it, etc. Once they have enough data, they close it down.

See, I can't believe they just can't write a routine in their fare tables that says any fare under $50 or any fare over $4,000 (whatever numbers you want) can't be published without it being approved by somebody first. I worked for a bank and all of our interest tables had this, so that even with all the triple checking we did we could never be able to accidently put a savings rate of 30% online.

Actually, you could look at it as a public service, this way when the airlines do screw up (though I still don't believe that is af often as people think) we tell them about it so they can fix it.

Pshaung - In Connecticut, if an item is priced at a lower price then it rings up at the register for, you get one of those items for free. Not at the lower price, for free. If the item is not priced individually, but the store display has a lower price then they scan it at, you get one of them for free. When stores started switching to scanners it was common practice for them to have one price on the item and have it scan at a higher price (and it wasn't always a mistake), so the state decided the way to make them a bit more accurate is to make them give you one for free on the spot. Sort of like a trial, conviction, and fine all at once. Funny, pricing errors are pretty much a thing of the past now. If the store doesn't correct it you can take that copy of office out to your car, walk back in, and get another one and keep doing it until they fix it (though most managers will stop you at the door at the second time).

Printing errors are excluded, as long as the store posts the error either at their entrance or where the item was being sold. There are signs all the time saying "The tomatoes listed in the newspaper insert for $0.49 per pound are actually $2.49 per pound". If they don't have the correction posted, they have to sell them to you at the advertised price.

There isn't any excuse for errors like this to go through, and when they do make them they should take responsibility for them.

pshuang as lemonthrower pointed out, this is at the heart of "false advertizing." now, I am not talking about a ad you get in the mail that is obviously wrong, and has the disclaimer that the store is not responsible for typos, etc...

I am talking about a price tag w/ the correct SKU showing $49.99, or when it scans coming up at $49.99. The store is obligated to honor the price that comes up, so long as it is lower than the real price, if it is higher than the customer gets it for the "right" price.

There are two very different scenarios at play here:

(1) Airline posts incorrect fare for whatever reason. You attempt to book it, they catch it before you book it, and you complain about not being about to book the incorrectly-low fare. In this case, while I understand the disappointment, I also understand the airline's right to not sell that fare. I liken that to a typo in the Sunday paper offering TVs for $29.99 instead of $299.99. Joe's Electronics can't be expected to go out of business because the Tribune made a typo, can it? (Of course, I tend to agree with cordelli on *some* of these low fares. They may not be unintentional, but that's another story.)

(2) Airline posts a fare (whatever it is), and then ALLOWS YOU TO BOOK IT. That's the key difference. If the newspaper prints an ad for $29 TVs, I drive to Joe's Electronics, Joe sells me one for $29 and helps me load it into my car, and I get home to find a message from Joe saying "Oops...it was really $299 - please come back and pay the difference", then it's his fault. I wasn't unethical buying the TV (even though it was obviously below cost), and Joe has no right to take it back from me.

THIS is the scenario from United's $50 Europe fares and Delta's RPU Gestapo. IMHO, the airlines have NO grounds to stand on. Am I unethical to select a ten-segment mileage run for a low price if the airline is PERFECTLY WILLING AND EAGER to sell it to me? No - no question about it. Am I unethical for selecting the lowest fare to Europe, even if it seems to be lower than usual? Again, the airline is PERFECTLY WILLING AND EAGER to sell it to me. No - no question about it. Is it unethical for the airlines to change the rules and try to jam a customer who has already bought the ticket? YES - no question about it.

In general, I'd like to consider the airlines as a FRIEND. Why? Because I kind of like having them around, and I certainly don't want to go to Europe or Hawaii in a boat. Some airlines are certainly less friendly than others, as we all know...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> If the newspaper prints an ad for $29 TVs, I drive to Joe's Electronics, Joe sells me one for $29 and helps me load it into my car, and I get home to find a message from Joe saying "Oops...it was really $299 - please come back and pay the difference", then it's his fault. I wasn't unethical buying the TV (even though it was obviously below cost), and Joe has no right to take it back from me.

...[/B]</font>

I don't think that last year's $23 fare was advertised. Ithink it was a computer glitch.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by zrs70:
I don't think that last year's $23 fare was advertised. Ithink it was a computer glitch.

</font>

If a firm chooses to do business on the internet, and the fare shows up on the internet, that is advertising as far as I am concerned.

Joe

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by zrs70:
I don't think that last year's $23 fare was advertised. Ithink it was a computer glitch.

</font>

No, it was listed as a fare in their booking engine online. If they publish or list it, and they let you book it, then they were selling it, glitch or not. Indeed, they let it sell for an hour or so, but it could have been available longer, nobody knows for sure.

If they make a fare available to me in any method, then I would assume I can book that fare. Back then there was much discussion as to when a fare is too low to be true and when it's a deal, right after the disaster one airline was doing $1.00 fares from new York to the West Coast, and that was a real fare to get you on the plane (you had to purchase a $99 return ticket, so round trip was $100). Was the $1.00 a mistake? No, it was a promotion. I still don't belive the Paris fare was a mistake.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by zrs70:
But I think others see FT as a community that seeks to exploit loopholes, screw the airlines, and take advantage of computer glitches.</font>

you mean like this one:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum122/HTML/001418.html

IT screw-up, giving out 62,000 HH points like candy...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by EWR-COflyer:
you mean like this one:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum122/HTML/001418.html

IT screw-up, giving out 62,000 HH points like candy...</font>

Yes, and we even have a TalkBoard member trying to justify it! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum132/HTML/000030.html


[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-19-2002).]

I consider myself a travel nut that comes here to learn how to better enjoy the perks of being a frequent flyer.

I also think that how each of the members of this community chooses to use the information gathered here is a personal decision. Furthermore, almost all of the problems, agruments and flame wars that are started around here have to do with the fact that some members feel they need to regulate or censor how other members choose to use that information.

Perhaps all the police matters on these boards should be left to its owner and those designated by him, and we would all have a smoother & more productive existance on FT.

------------------
Gaucho100K

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Gaucho100K:
Perhaps all the police matters on these boards should be left to its owner and those designated by him.

</font>

Nice in theory, but not practical and very naive.