Travel Technology - portable audio players that support flac?

Hello. Are there any current mp3 style portable audio players that also play flac (lossless) files? Pickings seem to be slim for models that support the flac format that I think is getting more popular.

Thanks!

Well, you specified current, but the Rio Karma is still a great option. It's still one of the best digital audio players out there.

On the other hand, the whole point of flac is archiving. Keep the flacs on your computer, and reencode for your portable, I'd challenge you to tell the difference betweenn the flac and a good (aka: lame -alt-preset-standard/extreeme) mp3 on whatever headphones you're using.

Matthew

The iAudio U3 flash player plays flash - I own that one and it works very well. Ditto for the iAudio X5. I think some of their other players do as well.

I think the Swissbit player does flac too.

FLAC is not just for archiving - its a good playing format too. Some people's ears cannot tell, others can. Its up to the person.

I use FLAC even on my 2GB U3 player. Its nice to just be able to throw files on there and not care what they are or worry about converting: it plays MP3, AAC, FLAC, Ogg vobis and all no problem at all.

Well, you specified current, but the Rio Karma is still a great option. It's still one of the best digital audio players out there.

On the other hand, the whole point of flac is archiving. Keep the flacs on your computer, and reencode for your portable, I'd challenge you to tell the difference betweenn the flac and a good (aka: lame -alt-preset-standard/extreeme) mp3 on whatever headphones you're using.

Matthew

The Karma was the best little player that didn't work :( I went through several of them, and Rio/SonicBlue/whatevertheywerecalled closed shop before they were able to release a better firmware or a newer version of it.

I miss my Karma. Great little player, and it taught me the value of gapless mp3 playback.

Try a current iPod, but install Rockbox (http://www.rockbox.org) firmware. This should take care of whatever format you want to use for your music (except WMA)

Let me cast another vote for the iAudio X5. In fact, let me paste a mini-review I did of the thing (note that this was written over a year ago, so the prices have most likely changed and supposedly the latest iPods have finally resolved some of their prior sound problems):

MINI-REVIEW: COWON IAUDIO X5

Above all else, a DAP (Digital Audio Player) should be judged at how well it plays audio, and to me that means sound quality. The Cowon iAudio X5 is currently the king of hdd-based (read: high storage capacity) players in the sound quality department, with solid bass and an overall warmer sound than other DAPs in its class, where the only competition seems to be iriver which also produces some great-sounding products. By comparison, Apple's iPod is notorious for its only mediocre sound-quality for the price, including lackluster bass response and even sound distortions in certain models (turn to Google for hundreds of pages and thousands of forum posts on this topic).

Build quality of the iAudio X5 is excellent, with an overall solid feel to the metal casing and buttons; a black aluminum finish which is as gorgeous to the touch as it is to the eye; sharp and easily readable 260,000 color, 160x128 pixel TFT-LCD; and up to 14-hour(!) battery life (up to 35 hours[!] if you get the extended battery edition -- note that it is slightly larger to accommodate the bigger battery).

In addition to mp3, wma (including PlaysForSure support), and asf, the X5 also plays ogg (competing lossy codec which has noticeably higher sound quality in about the same filesize), flac (the Free Lossless Audio Codec, which is compressed [obviously not as small as with lossy codecs] but without any loss in quality), wav, multiple playlist formats, and video(!). Of course with its small screen and limited fps you probably wouldn't want to use it for watching regular movies, but it is a great value adding feature for watching stand-up comedy and cartoons (ie, Eddie Izzard or Family Guy) while on a bus or plane. You can even set 'bookmarks' in both movies and sound files (great for audiobooks and lectures) to resume right where you left off.

Additional features include FM Radio which you can listen to or record directly, voice recording with built-in mic, line-in recording (so you could use an external mic or record from another device entirely), picture viewer with thumbnail mode, text viewer (not very useful), and a USB Host mode which allows you to connect the X5 to other USB devices directly and copy or delete files, without the need of a PC (so for example you can transfer pictures from your digital camera to store on the X5's hdd, or even music from other audio players which work as standard mass-storage devices). Speaking of which, the X5 itself is a standard mass-storage device, which means it shows up like a removable hdd when you connect it to a windows machine or mac, and you can use it to store/carry other files besides just those it can play.

For the superior sound quality, as well as all these extra features, the iAudio X5 matches the iPod's price -- $299 for 20gb, $349 for 30gb (add $30 to those prices for the extended battery editions; there was also talk of a 60gb version but I don't know if that ever came out). Highly recommended.

--> http://www.cowonamerica.com/products/iaudio/x5/

Let me cast another vote for the iAudio X5. In fact, let me paste a mini-review I did of the thing (note that this was written over a year ago, so the prices have most likely changed and supposedly the latest iPods have finally resolved some of their prior sound problems):

MINI-REVIEW: COWON IAUDIO X5

Thanks for the review! This unit would fit the bill quite nicely playing flac audio (and a lot of other formats also)!

The Cowon site also has an iAudio 6 player. Do you know the difference between the iAudio X5 and 6?

Thanks for the review! This unit would fit the bill quite nicely playing flac audio (and a lot of other formats also)!

The Cowon site also has an iAudio 6 player. Do you know the difference between the iAudio X5 and 6?

The 6 is a mini player more akin to the old Ipod Mini, with a small HD of I think 4GB.

The X5 is a full size large HDD player I think comes minimum storage of 20GB and as big as 60GB.

I audio really needs to work on their naming system. It is equally as awful as the players are outstanding. Or maybe they are more rigiorous when they hire engineers than when the hire marketing staff.

Or maybe they are more rigiorous when they hire engineers than when the hire marketing staff.

*chuckles* That's much better than the opposite, which is what most other companies seem to be doing these days.

Above all else, a DAP (Digital Audio Player) should be judged at how well it plays audio, and to me that means sound quality. The Cowon iAudio X5 is currently the king of hdd-based (read: high storage capacity) players in the sound quality department, with solid bass and an overall warmer sound than other DAPs in its class, where the only competition seems to be iriver which also produces some great-sounding products. By comparison, Apple's iPod is notorious for its only mediocre sound-quality for the price, including lackluster bass response and even sound distortions in certain models (turn to Google for hundreds of pages and thousands of forum posts on this topic).
I'd love to see a study that actually says this. The most comprehensive one I found was on CNET (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-6247126-1.html?tag=txt) (I know), and they rated the iPod 5G ahead of the X5. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/934/index2.html) rated the 3G high for sound quality, as well.

I know it's fashionable to claim the ipod only succeeds because of marketing, but I don't believe that's true. Getting back on topic, the ipod doesn't play FLAC, but it does play Apple's own lossless codec, ALAC.

I'd love to see a study that actually says this. The most comprehensive one I found was on CNET (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-6247126-1.html?tag=txt) (I know), and they rated the iPod 5G ahead of the X5. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/934/index2.html) rated the 3G high for sound quality, as well.

I know it's fashionable to claim the ipod only succeeds because of marketing, but I don't believe that's true. Getting back on topic, the ipod doesn't play FLAC, but it does play Apple's own lossless codec, ALAC.

If you read my disclaimer at the top, this mini-review was written around a year ago, before the 5g iPods which have supposedly 'fixed' the sound problems that plagued the 3 & 4 generations. Most comparisons you find on the web now are done with 5g. Also of note, the nano was excellent from the get-go, and its sound quality trumping that of its big brother might've been a major motivation in Apple reinvesting in the fixes that we see in the 5g. The bottom line is that both players are now at the top of their class in sound quality, but the X5 has more features (oh and that gorgeous enclosure) while the iPod has iTunes (which is a plus or a minus depending on your preference).

As for ALAC versus FLAC, ALAC is fine sound-quality-wise but closed and proprietary, so good luck getting your music out of it into another format if you should ever wish to do so in the future.

As for ALAC versus FLAC, ALAC is fine sound-quality-wise but closed and proprietary, so good luck getting your music out of it into another format if you should ever wish to do so in the future.

That was just a waste of consumers time on Apples part. The more consumer friendly thing would have been to support FLAC rather than reinventing the wheel.

Of course ALAC is fine sound quality-wise -- it's lossless. To get your music out of ALAC, you can use itunes or the open source ALAC decoder and export to AIFF. Apple could have used an existing format, but none of them are standardized. I suspect if MPEG lossless had been done, they'd have used it. It wasn't, so they rolled their own, instead of having to rely on somebody else's format.

At any rate, my point is that a desire for lossless doesn't rule out an ipod.

Apple could have used an existing format, but none of them are standardized.

Not true. FLAC is open source and standardised as you get. And has been for ages.

So there really cannot be any excuse for Apple going off and creating yet another lossless codec - which is incompatible with anythting consumers have - or is that the point.

"ALAC" is simply reflective of Apple's desire to control the consumer in every way. And that is not a good thing.

Get an iPod and use Anapod (http://www.redchairsoftware.com/anapod/). It'll auto-convert from flac to MP3 when you sync your PC with the iPod. You can choose the bitrate when you sync.

Not true. FLAC is open source and standardised as you get. And has been for ages.
Really? Can you link to the standard then? Open source is not the same thing as standardized.

I still haven't found a DAP I liked as much as the iPod. I'm VERY picky about my sound quality; IMO you can get away with lossy if done properly. I rip to lossless now, transcode to AAC @ 320Kbps and find the results musically satisfying. The iPod isn't perfect but for portable use it sounds very good. It's certainly better than many DAPs and if you're looking for truly high quality you can mod (http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod) it and use an outboard (http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-airhead.php) amp. That combo should sound better than any other DAP available. A bit unwieldy but it'll work. I haven't done it yet but am still considering it. I have a 4G ipod hanging around still.

I would also point out that if you're concerned about sound quality, be sure to tick the box on the itunes import tab that says "Use error correction when reading Audio CDs". Itunes has some truly brain-dead default import settings.

Rockbox supports FLAC on several iRiver, Cowon and iPod models.

See http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SoundCodecs

Rockbox supports FLAC on several iRiver, Cowon and iPod models.

See http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SoundCodecs

Which was mentioned on post #5.

Really? Can you link to the standard then? Open source is not the same thing as standardized.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/

When we say that FLAC is "Free" it means more than just that it is available at no cost. It means that the specification of the format is fully open to the public to be used for any purpose (the FLAC project reserves the right to set the FLAC specification and certify compliance), and that neither the FLAC format nor any of the implemented encoding/decoding methods are covered by any known patent. It also means that all the source code is available under open-source licenses. It is the first truly open and free lossless audio format. (For more information, see the license page.)

I take you know what Sourceforge is as well. Why on earth anyone needs to invent a closed standard, aka"ALAC" when this is there, is beyond me.

Further questions? :) Until then, my music will stay in FLAC. With good reason.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/

When we say that FLAC is "Free" it means more than just that it is available at no cost. It means that the specification of the format is fully open to the public to be used for any purpose (the FLAC project reserves the right to set the FLAC specification and certify compliance), and that neither the FLAC format nor any of the implemented encoding/decoding methods are covered by any known patent. It also means that all the source code is available under open-source licenses. It is the first truly open and free lossless audio format. (For more information, see the license page.)

I take you know what Sourceforge is as well. Why on earth anyone needs to invent a closed standard, aka"ALAC" when this is there, is beyond me.

Further questions? :) Until then, my music will stay in FLAC. With good reason.

Well aside from the fact that the iPod/iTunes don't do FLAC natively and that using FLAC means an extra transcoding step... if you want to do open source for the sake of using open source, so be it.

Like I said, open source is not the same as a standard. This (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=43026&ICS1=35&ICS2=40&ICS3=) is a standard. If MPEG-4 ALS had been done, I bet Apple would have used it. FLAC is a wonderful CODEC donated to the world by a group of smart, generous people, but it's not a standard. Xiph.org completely controls FLAC, and can do whatever they want to it.

Don't get me wrong - I like FLAC, and Vorbis too. I think it's great that the xiph people have given them to the world. They're not standards, though. I can't even find a published specification for FLAC.

Which was mentioned on post #5.

Not to be picky, but Post #5 only mentioned Rockbox on iPods. Nothing about iRiver or Cowon. ;)

ooops

Xiph.org completely controls FLAC, and can do whatever they want to it.

As opposed to.....Apple? Oh right. One of these two is a non profit, the othe rone peddles 128 kps files and has the temerity to DRM even those low grade things.

I'm happy to put my faith in Xiph any time. Apple only has one thing in mind.