Hilton HHonors - Any other Gov't Travellers getting told this?

Checked in at the Hilton Harbor Island in San Diego and my rate was much higher than the original reservation. I questioned it and was told the government rate was not available as it was too low. When I asked for a manager, I also pulled out a copy of my reservation and showed it to him, he finally agreed to give me the correct rate. He also stated the government rate was too low and they were losing $$ and were looking at not having that rate anymore. As a Diamond, I'd really hate to leave Hilton, but with this attitude, they are "really" not encouraging me to stay.

That's a new one and in really poor taste. It's certainly up to the property to offer the GOV rate. Many of them don't or they set aside such a small number of rooms that it effectively doesn't exist. Why are they complaining to you? They should be complaining to GSA. Wouldn't we all love that! Sounds like they are hoping to pull a bait and switch and you're supposed to feel so sorry for them that you say "ok". :confused:

I don't know what my reaction would have been if after a full day of traveling I was greeted with "we shouldn't have offered you that rate" instead of "welcome to ...."

The closest I've come to your experience was a hotel that raised the rate to the new per diem rate when it increased at the start of the fiscal year. Nevermind that my reservation and travel authorization were at the previous FY rate. I pointed out the rate listed on my printed reservation and they provided a copy of the GSA per diem table from the web. I just didn't bother to continue to argue over this. It was a couple of bucks a day and I figured I could get an amendment through.

Instead I had to spend time explaining that I was entitled to Gold VIP benefits AND just what those were. I suggested that the Internet they used to access to the GSA per diem rates would also provide information on Gold VIP benefits for HHonors members. :rolleyes: Some people.

My hometown Hilton once attempted to turn down a Senator for the per diem rate. Luckily it was one of the Senator's staffers checking in before the Senator arrived, and I was able to call the GM and get things straightened out before they pis**d off a sitting Senator, but it goes to show you they'll try the old bait & switch on anyone.

I've never had it happen to me, but I'd definitely call the Diamond folks and let them know what their property is doing...

I have noticed that many fewer hotels are carrying the Govt rate, not just Hilton, but all chains. I was in Eatontown, NJ a couple weeks ago (no local hhonors properties, but there is a Sheraton). Many of the hotels in the area have got together and are refusing to allocate Govt rate ($94) rooms between June and Oct. They are all charging $119, and have forms for Govt employees to send to the GSA or someone to ask them to raise per-diem in the Eatontown area as no rooms are available for $94.

The point of the annecdote is that Govt rate rooms are becoming harder and harder to find. They are rarely available at the LAX HGI or DOubletree for example.

Stayed at the Hilton STL airport two weeks ago. I booked a “government rate with breakfast AND dinner” on the web. At check in the lady at the desk told me “we no longer offer that rate and we don’t give out the dinner chits. We’ll only give you the breakfast chits.” I responded that I booked the rate on their web site and had the printout of my confirmation verifying that B-fast AND dinner were included. She disappeared into a back room for all of 15 seconds and reappeared with my b-fast AND dinner chits. A lame attempt at bait and switch if you ask me, which is illegal in all 50 states.

Bottom line is carry documentaion at all times and call them on their B.S.!

I'm no lawyer and as a UK, none government type kinda none of my business and well outside my sphere of knowledge but is the above a Cartel? Is this allowed? Is it the free market economy in action?
???

I'm no lawyer and as a UK, none government type kinda none of my business and well outside my sphere of knowledge but is the above a Cartel? Is this allowed? Is it the free market economy in action?
???
It is entirely the hotel’s decision to offer or not to offer a gov rate for any given night. There are dozens of hotels that I’ve stayed at repeatedly on government rates that, at other times, I can’t get a gov rate. It’s a free market and there’s nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is when hotels offer a gov rate or other perks with a gov rate and then complain about it to the traveler, tell them that they’re losing money, or flat out tell them that they can’t give them the rate that they booked. That’s where legal and contractual issues come in, and frankly it’s just plain bad for business.

If the hotel doesn’t want to offer gov rates for a particular night or nights, they don’t have to, so if they don’t like them, just don’t offer them. That way they avoid angering their customers.

I've been staying for months now at a Garden Inn with a gov't rate of $60/night. They're always happy to see me (about 35 nights so far), usually upgrade me to a Jr. Suite, water coupons and so on.

I'm getting 750 MyWay points, but sometimes they comp me b'fast anyhow.

OTOH, when I tried to negotiate at a Fairfield Inn, the guy wouldn't budge a nickel, telling me his best rate (GOV) was already too low. Oh well -- he's already lost about 75 nights from me. The free market at work.

Almost the same happened to me every third time when I was staying in one of Hiltons worst hotels; Hilton Springfield

I booked the GOV rate online but when I checked in I was presented with another rate. First time I didn't see that when checking in, and it was lots of hassels to correct it.

Seems that Hilton Springfield sweeps their bookings on a regular basis, and rebook GOV rates to company rates. My company have a negotiated rate, which of course is higher. How can they even do this, I mean I book in one rate and they decide to switch me over to another? Beats me!

Luckily I'm not going back there anymore! ;)

Almost the same happened to me every third time when I was staying in one of Hiltons worst hotels; Hilton Springfield

I booked the GOV rate online but when I checked in I was presented with another rate. First time I didn't see that when checking in, and it was lots of hassels to correct it.

Seems that Hilton Springfield sweeps their bookings on a regular basis, and rebook GOV rates to company rates. My company have a negotiated rate, which of course is higher. How can they even do this, I mean I book in one rate and they decide to switch me over to another? Beats me!

Luckily I'm not going back there anymore! ;)

I have a question, when you noticed the rate change, why didn't you just show your printed confirmation?

What I don't get is how GSA can keep the CONUS rate at $60 for lodging.

According to their website...

"GSA establishes the CONUS per diem rates providing the maximum reimbursement allowances up to which federal employees are reimbursed by their agencies for expenses incurred while on official travel. ...

Since FY 05, NSA rates have been based on the Average Daily Rate (ADR). This data is obtained through a GSA contract with a leading provider of lodging industry economic data. The ADR is a widely accepted lodging-industry measure based upon a property's room rental revenue divided by the number of rooms rented as reported by the hotel property to the contractor. This calculation provides us with the average rate that rooms rent in a given area.

For rate setting, GSA is required by law to use only properties that are certified as being "fire safe" and in compliance with the Hotel & Motel Fire Safety Act of 1990. This requires smoke detectors and automatic sprinkler systems in each guest room.

As in FY 06, we still use:

Only "fire safe" properties;
Properties that fall within the mid-price range. This range includes all properties from the lowest to the highest of the mid-price, upper and upper-upscale properties in an area;
Data from the prior 12 month period. For FY 07, this is from April 2005 through March 2006; Business travel week data (Monday through Thursday)...

In FY 07, we have refined our methodology. We now:

Select mid-price properties from zip codes where the majority of federal travelers stay... "

How is it possible that the average rack rate for a MID-RANGE hotel is $60? They must be using HoJo, Red Roof Inn, LaQuinta AND including discount or "best available" and non-refundable rates. Seems like the standard rack rate anywhere I travel is at least $69, if not $99, unless I book way in advance.

Am I alone here????

What I don't get is how GSA can keep the CONUS rate at $60 for lodging...

How is it possible that the average rack rate for a MID-RANGE hotel is $60? They must be using HoJo, Red Roof Inn, LaQuinta AND including discount or "best available" and non-refundable rates. Seems like the standard rack rate anywhere I travel is at least $69, if not $99, unless I book way in advance.

Am I alone here????No, you are most definitely not alone. The $60 CONUS rate is ridiculous. I stayed recently in St. George, Utah, and managed to get the $60 rate at the Courtyard. But the Hampton Federal Govt rate is $85, and the HGI is $89. Even the Fairfield charges $65.

The rates in many large cities are also unreasonably low. Good luck getting a govt. rate in Downtown Chicago.

I've been staying for months now at a Garden Inn with a gov't rate of $60/night. They're always happy to see me (about 35 nights so far), usually upgrade me to a Jr. Suite, water coupons and so on.



I tried to make several random booking on the hhonors website and always come up with the following for Govt rate at the ABQ airport HGI

GOVT WITH BREAKFAST US FED/STATE/MILITARY GOV EMP-I.D. REQ
89.00 USD 1 KING BED Requested non-smoking
89.00 USD 2 QUEEN BEDS Requested non-smoking
105.00 USD 1 KING BED JR SUITE Requested non-smoking
95.00 USD 1 KING BED WHIRLPOOL RM Requested non-smoking
89.00 USD ROOM SELECTED AT CHECK-IN

According to https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html
the per-deim rate for ABQ is $66. So this is $23 over per diem (I know the rate says that you get breakfast, but I get breakfast free as a diamond!)

I have a question, when you noticed the rate change, why didn't you just show your printed confirmation?
The first time I didn't notice until check-out. I was in a hurry and told front desk that there were a problem with the bill but they couldn't see my original/correct rate. Strange! Anyhow, I was in a hurry and sent the GM an email instead and he fixed it. The second, third, and fourth time I pulled up my laptop on the front desk and showed them the correct rate. Actually, after second time (I think) the ppl were aware of it and it usually just helped waving with my GOV ID.

Well, I mailed the GM my concern and he just says than no changes can be made or will be made to this, meaning that everyone who checks in to Hilton SPI have to check that the booked GOV rate is correct and not changed to a corporate rate.

I am just so happy that I'm not going back...

Have these rate "revisions" been reported to Hilton Customer Service? I can't believe they don't have the authority to have these properties knock off the bait-and-switching!

I will agree that they often shove the "sign here and initial there" paperwork at you fast, and the rate's not always that easy to spot immediately; if the desk is particularly busy it's tough to stand there and look over the stuff carefully.

According to https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html
the per-deim rate for ABQ is $66. So this is $23 over per diem (I know the rate says that you get breakfast, but I get breakfast free as a diamond!)I have no idea where they got the rate from. I was just starting out in the area and after getting turned down by the Fairfield Inn guy, I was hunting for someplace to land and also a relatively inexpensive Hilton property so I could work their promos.

Imagine my surprise when this rate turned up. I immediately booked it, and I showed up with my badge in hand and a good idea where ther local Motel 6 was in case they gave me a problem.

That was several months ago and I haven't looked back since. It's gotten me through Diamond re-qual, double points/miles, and a 5/10/15. Whoo-hoo!

It is entirely the hotel’s decision to offer or not to offer a gov rate for any given night. There are dozens of hotels that I’ve stayed at repeatedly on government rates that, at other times, I can’t get a gov rate. It’s a free market and there’s nothing wrong with that.

While that is certainly true, I think that markieg's point about a "cartel," in response to mazzer's posting, was that when different hotels get together and agree among themselves not to offer a particular rate (or to otherwise price-fix), that is against the law. And markieg appears to be correct. Any conspiracy in restraint of trade in the United States is a violation of the Sherman Anti-trust Act, and is punishable as a felony.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/foia/divisionmanual/ch2.htm#a1

So while any individual hotel owner can decide not to offer a government rate (or to offer a government rate that exceeds the current per diem reimbursement rate), when two or more hotel owners get together and agree not to offer a government rate, that would appear to be a conspiracy in violation of the Sherman Act.

What I don't get is how GSA can keep the CONUS rate at $60 for lodging.

According to their website...

"GSA establishes the CONUS per diem rates providing the maximum reimbursement allowances up to which federal employees are reimbursed by their agencies for expenses incurred while on official travel. ...

Since FY 05, NSA rates have been based on the Average Daily Rate (ADR). This data is obtained through a GSA contract with a leading provider of lodging industry economic data. The ADR is a widely accepted lodging-industry measure based upon a property's room rental revenue divided by the number of rooms rented as reported by the hotel property to the contractor. This calculation provides us with the average rate that rooms rent in a given area.

For rate setting, GSA is required by law to use only properties that are certified as being "fire safe" and in compliance with the Hotel & Motel Fire Safety Act of 1990. This requires smoke detectors and automatic sprinkler systems in each guest room.

As in FY 06, we still use:

Only "fire safe" properties;
Properties that fall within the mid-price range. This range includes all properties from the lowest to the highest of the mid-price, upper and upper-upscale properties in an area;
Data from the prior 12 month period. For FY 07, this is from April 2005 through March 2006; Business travel week data (Monday through Thursday)...

In FY 07, we have refined our methodology. We now:

Select mid-price properties from zip codes where the majority of federal travelers stay... "

How is it possible that the average rack rate for a MID-RANGE hotel is $60? They must be using HoJo, Red Roof Inn, LaQuinta AND including discount or "best available" and non-refundable rates. Seems like the standard rack rate anywhere I travel is at least $69, if not $99, unless I book way in advance.

Am I alone here????
I do a lot of travel to San Diego, LA, Newport, RI, Boston etc... I'm happy if I can get under $150!!!! Heck, I haven't seen $99 at any of these locations in 5 years at a decent hotel... and yes, I agree they are using the minimum level hotel, no one anyone would actually stay in more than one night :mad:

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
1) Challenging the guest at check-in is evil. The problem exists between HGI, hotel management, and GSA. The guest is just a pawn, and shouldn't be penalized just because he or she is the most likely to cave. I would report the property to the Diamond desk, in writing.
2) Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn. In fact, if I recall correctly there was recently a travel overhaul about government employees not being allowed to fly in first class solely because of the *appearance* of overspending (even if you were doing it on miles). I would think staying in Hiltons would qualify under the same caveats...

So while any individual hotel owner can decide not to offer a government rate (or to offer a government rate that exceeds the current per diem reimbursement rate), when two or more hotel owners get together and agree not to offer a government rate, that would appear to be a conspiracy in violation of the Sherman Act.

Not only are they getting together not to offer the Govt rate, but they all have the same form letter for Govt Travellers to send to the GSA asking for the Govt rate to be raised...

Not only are they getting together not to offer the Govt rate, but they all have the same form letter for Govt Travellers to send to the GSA asking for the Govt rate to be raised...

Well then, you could bring it to the attention of the local U.S. Attorney office. Sounds like a clear violation of federal law.

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
1) Challenging the guest at check-in is evil. The problem exists between HGI, hotel management, and GSA. The guest is just a pawn, and shouldn't be penalized just because he or she is the most likely to cave. I would report the property to the Diamond desk, in writing.
2) Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons?

So, are you saying that even if the Hilton is $50 cheaper than the Holiday Inn, a government worker shouldn't stay at the Hilton because it gives the "appearance" of being expensive. No offense, but hogwash. Federal workers have a fixed per diem for hotel everywhere in the country. If they rent a room at per diem, the government reimburses. If they rent a room under per diem, the government saves the money. If they rent a room over per diem, the traveler will not be reimbursed for the difference and pays it out of his or her own pocket.

As to airline first class, a federal traveler is free to accept frequent flyer elite upgrades to first class that are available to all elite travelers, government or not.

While that is certainly true, I think that markieg's point about a "cartel," in response to mazzer's posting, was that when different hotels get together and agree among themselves not to offer a particular rate (or to otherwise price-fix), that is against the law. And markieg appears to be correct. Any conspiracy in restraint of trade in the United States is a violation of the Sherman Anti-trust Act, and is punishable as a felony.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/foia/divisionmanual/ch2.htm#a1

So while any individual hotel owner can decide not to offer a government rate (or to offer a government rate that exceeds the current per diem reimbursement rate), when two or more hotel owners get together and agree not to offer a government rate, that would appear to be a conspiracy in violation of the Sherman Act.
True, if they are conspiring then something should be done. The difficulty is in proving that the lack of available gov rates is due to collusion rather than economic and demand factors. In some locations, prevailing hotel rates are generally higher than what per diem covers, so gov rooms are scarce. Blame that one on the system that GSA uses to determine local rates as discussed in previous posts. In other cases intermittent high demand can make gov rate rooms hard to find. Ever try to get a room close to downtown D.C. during cherry blossom season? But then in August it's no problem.

2) Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?AFAIK, perdiem varies widely, depending on the location.

What you may be referring to is a notation in the list that, if the particular location is not mentioned specifically, then a general uniform rate applies.

Any travel coordinator worth his pencil can probably arange it so that your location winds up being in or near one of the locations. :)

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
...
2) Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn. ...
First of all, thank you for your service!

As to your second observation, we're talking about the CONUS rate. There are locality rates which are a better measure of the "going rate" in times of decreased demand.

As for # 3, I used to stay in Holiday Inns when I first started with the government: Comfort Inns, Ramada Inns, and some Quality Suites too. They just aren't what they used to be. I hear HI Express hotels (since they are relatively new) are pretty nice, but the rest are pretty variable in quality. Meaning they are from average to poor. During my last stay at a Holiday Inn, me and the gnats were fighting for airspace! I would like to try the Fairfield Inns but they just aren't located in my travel areas.

When we talk about Hilton hotels within per diem, it's almost always a Hampton Inn. Sometimes a Homewood Suites can be gotten at per diem for a full week's stay. Hilton, Doubletree, Embassy Suites, and the "mid-range" Hilton Garden Inn are extremely hard to find within per diem if it falls within a CONUS rate area. :(

For me, paying a little out of pocket for a rate that exceeds the federal reimbursement rate is not a rare occurence. I would rather feel safe and have a clean place to sleep than the alternative. I'll go kicking and screaming to a LaQuinta, Motel 6, Red Roof Inn, or Microtel. :eek:

AFAIK, perdiem varies widely, depending on the location.


You can see the per-diem rate for any location at this website
https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
1) Challenging the guest at check-in is evil. The problem exists between HGI, hotel management, and GSA. The guest is just a pawn, and shouldn't be penalized just because he or she is the most likely to cave. I would report the property to the Diamond desk, in writing.
2) Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn. In fact, if I recall correctly there was recently a travel overhaul about government employees not being allowed to fly in first class solely because of the *appearance* of overspending (even if you were doing it on miles). I would think staying in Hiltons would qualify under the same caveats...
Philoj- I'd "love" to stay in the Q, but as a contractor it is illegal (so called unfair use of facilities since I'm a retired officer). As for staying at Hilton, I really don't consider them to be upscale anymore. They are average, and Holiday Inns are pretty bad in most of the locations, and many of them have not been updated in 10-15 years (one of our GS's got badly bitten by "something" in his bed at the Holiday Inn San Diego). In all honesty, I'd just as soon have a job where I didn't travel... I'm really tired of 150+ nights a year on the road worldwide. It's just not fun anymore.

Well then, you could bring it to the attention of the local U.S. Attorney office. Sounds like a clear violation of federal law.

Also, by providing documents that all-but-prove the collusion, the hotels are guilty of terminal stupidity.

This is very helpful. I must bring my reservation printout the next time I travel. I wasn't aware of this happening at the national hotel chain.

Almost the same happened to me every third time when I was staying in one of Hiltons worst hotels; Hilton Springfield

I booked the GOV rate online but when I checked in I was presented with another rate. First time I didn't see that when checking in, and it was lots of hassels to correct it.

Seems that Hilton Springfield sweeps their bookings on a regular basis, and rebook GOV rates to company rates. My company have a negotiated rate, which of course is higher. How can they even do this, I mean I book in one rate and they decide to switch me over to another? Beats me!

Luckily I'm not going back there anymore! ;)

I'm curious :confused: Do you work for the Gov?

The closest I've come to your experience was a hotel that raised the rate to the new per diem rate when it increased at the start of the fiscal year. Nevermind that my reservation and travel authorization were at the previous FY rate. I pointed out the rate listed on my printed reservation and they provided a copy of the GSA per diem table from the web. I just didn't bother to continue to argue over this. It was a couple of bucks a day and I figured I could get an amendment through.




A hotel GOV rate is nothing more than a rate that the hotel decides to offer. It can offer a $20 rate or a $400 rate and call it their GOV rate. That is why more and more hotels are offering GOV rates that are higher than the GSA authorized rates. So if you're not careful and book these, you will be paying out of pocket when you turn in your travel claim.

Many, many hotel desk clerks and managers don't understand the GOV rate. They think that it is some kind of legally mandated rate that government employees must pay. I had a hotel manager try to raise my rate to the new GSA rate as you mentioned above even though I had a confirmed reservation at the old rate. I didn't let him get away with it. I explained to him over and over that it was simply a rate that they offered (with certain conditions that I met) and that I accepted, so they had no more right to raise it than they would to raise the AAA rate after someone booked it.

He wouldn't relent until I finally had him call his corporate office and they set him straight.

So I urge anyone who encounters these situations to not let a hotel rip you off. Fight them just as if it was your money they were trying to take from you, because it actually is your and my tax money.

A hotel GOV rate is nothing more than a rate that the hotel decides to offer.

True. But a "Fedrooms" rate, available in many cities to official government travelers, is a contracted rate which requires the property to provide the room at the local per diem, with a same day cancellation of no earlier than 4:00 p.m. Fedrooms rates are available at a number of Hilton family properties.

...Seems that Hilton Springfield sweeps their bookings on a regular basis, and rebook GOV rates to company rates. My company have a negotiated rate, which of course is higher. How can they even do this, I mean I book in one rate and they decide to switch me over to another? Beats me!I'm curious also. Do you work for the government? :confused:

I'm curious also. Do you work for the government? :confused:
My guess is that they work for a company that does work for the government, and when traveling for government work, they are allowed to use the government rate, as the government wants to pay only that amount. One of my old companies had a government contract that required us to book lodging at the government rate when available. On the rare time that a hotel was not willing to do this, we'd simply have our POC from the government agency show their ID at the hotel, and that typically worked.

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn. I would think staying in Hiltons would qualify under the same caveats...
Perhaps you see this as in relation to the appearance of overspending, but what difference should it make if I stay at a Hilton or Holiday Inn if both offer the govt rate and I am not paying any more?
OTOH, I work for a govt contractor, and my biggest problem is even though I have travel letter authorizing me to get the govt rate (when travelling on comp biz) many hotels don't want to honor it, or have a diff rate for contractors. What is up with that?

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...

Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?

...I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn...

First, yes per-diem rates are still based on location.

Second, as for where gov employees stay, abezebabe (above) has it right. When I used to let someone else make my travel reservations for me, I'd end up in the Days Inn or Holiday Inn. Then one day a friend informed me that I was allowed to stay in any hotel I wanted if I could get them to offer the same rate (GOV rate). So I started to look around and found that Hyatts and Hiltons and other 4* hotels often do. So now I always find my own hotel and usually stay in 4* rooms for the same price as the 2* rooms down the street.

Coupla thoughts from a Navy veteran...
1) Challenging the guest at check-in is evil. The problem exists between HGI, hotel management, and GSA. The guest is just a pawn, and shouldn't be penalized just because he or she is the most likely to cave. I would report the property to the Diamond desk, in writing.
2) Having the same rate nationwide is idiocy. Especially from an agency headquartered in Washington, DC. Per diem used to be based on location - is that not the case anymore?
3) [donning proximity suit] I hate to say it, but should civil servants be staying in Hiltons? When I was on travel, it was the BOQ or a Holiday Inn. In fact, if I recall correctly there was recently a travel overhaul about government employees not being allowed to fly in first class solely because of the *appearance* of overspending (even if you were doing it on miles). I would think staying in Hiltons would qualify under the same caveats...



Interesting thoughts...But sad. I am a civil servant working for a federal agency, and travel approximately 150-200 nights per year. The last thing I think about is "perception" in place of my comfort. My agency told me from day one to feel free to stay anywhere I wanted to...so long as I was comfortable. Obviously, if the property did not have the per diem rate available, I would paythe difference (Which rarely happens). I can understand the intent of what you are saying...But when a person is traveling 150 nights a year, comfort takes precedence over perception...and is endorsed by my agency.

As far as first class is concerned...it is simply something I pay for out of pocket or with accumulated upgrade certs I have earned.

I think that because you are in uniformed service service may make it uncomfortable for you to fly first or stay at "Hilton" type properties...While being a civil servant not wearing a uniform makes it easier for me to 'blend in' with everyone else.

THank you so much for your dedicated service to our country.

As a government employee, I think that government agencies would be entering into a very sticky situation if they started picking one hotel brand over another simply on the basis of perception of prestige.

Setting reasonable per diem rates and then leaving it up to the market to accomodate the per diem by offering government rates is, hands down, the best way to handle it, it seems to me. Chains like Four Seasons and Ritz-Carlton effectively don't seek to compete in that market, and that's fine. Many other chains that offer a quality product--including Hilton--can and do.

I've noticed in recent months that securing a good government rate seems to be getting tougher, but I think this is due to the strong demand for lodging and rising rates accross the board. All in all, however, I think the current system works quite well.

According to https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html
the per-deim rate for ABQ is $66. So this is $23 over per diem (I know the rate says that you get breakfast, but I get breakfast free as a diamond!)

It is possible to get the government rate in ABQ. I just stayed at the Hyatt downtown on 8/17 for $66. But I booked the rate in early June. The best my boss and co-worker could get was $83 because they booked later. You can always request approval of a rate above per diem if you are not able to book the goverment rate in your TDY area.

OTOH, I work for a govt contractor, and my biggest problem is even though I have travel letter authorizing me to get the govt rate (when travelling on comp biz) many hotels don't want to honor it, or have a diff rate for contractors. What is up with that?

You are NOT a government employee and very few hotels extend government rates to contract employees. One reason is that anyone can compose a letter, but a U.S. government ID or credit card (which we are REQUIRED to use when travelling) is very difficult to fake. Also, depending on the contract, government contractors are not limited to reimbursement at or below the government rate.

A hotel GOV rate is nothing more than a rate that the hotel decides to offer. It can offer a $20 rate or a $400 rate and call it their GOV rate. That is why more and more hotels are offering GOV rates that are higher than the GSA authorized rates. So if you're not careful and book these, you will be paying out of pocket when you turn in your travel claim.
. . .


My spouse has been with the GSA for over 20 years.
DCBob correctly states that you can always seek authorization BEFORE you travel to stay at a property that exceeds the GOV rates, though you typically must show that there are no properties in your locality/destination that meet per diem.
Thus, there should be no surprises in booking and forced to pay out of pocket when you turn in your travel claim.
Sometimes, it is also helpful to call a specific hotel, asking if they will honor the per diem rate.

You are NOT a government employee and very few hotels extend government rates to contract employees. One reason is that anyone can compose a letter, but a U.S. government ID or credit card (which we are REQUIRED to use when travelling) is very difficult to fake. Also, depending on the contract, government contractors are not limited to reimbursement at or below the government rate.
Unfortunately, many government contracts force vendors to stick to the CONUS or GSA local or state-supported hotel rate when travelling on contract business. I've never seen a contract which limits the airfare, however, but that may just be because of the types of projects which we do. For the last couple of years, however, I've been successful writing those terms out of fixed price, milestone-based project payment schedules.

Hilton has always been the chain whose properties have been most sympathetic to my plight when their posted government rate is in range (or maybe $5-10 over). I always arrive at the start of a project with a copy of our contract and the businesss card of our client's project manager, and meet with the general manager of the property. My projects usually involve 2-4 people, 4-5 weeknights/month each, 6-12 months. I've never had a Hilton family GM not allow my team to book at their property's government rate. But we've had two Marriott properties refuse, and as a result I refuse to stay at Marriotts for any type of travel unless I can't get a Hilton or Starwood property.

It is possible to get the government rate in ABQ. I just stayed at the Hyatt downtown on 8/17 for $66. But I booked the rate in early June. The best my boss and co-worker could get was $83 because they booked later. You can always request approval of a rate above per diem if you are not able to book the goverment rate in your TDY area.

Agreed, I usually stay at the Sheraton or the Homewood Suites for $66. I was just pointing out thatthe HGI at the airport is more

My spouse has been with the GSA for over 20 years.
DCBob correctly states that you can always seek authorization BEFORE you travel to stay at a property that exceeds the GOV rates, though you typically must show that there are no properties in your locality/destination that meet per diem.
Thus, there should be no surprises in booking and forced to pay out of pocket when you turn in your travel claim.
Sometimes, it is also helpful to call a specific hotel, asking if they will honor the per diem rate.

For example, I had to do this in FL a year or so back after a hurricane. The few undamaged hotels in the area I was visiting did not offer Govt rate due to the high demand for the few rooms left!

While that is certainly true, I think that markieg's point about a "cartel," in response to mazzer's posting, was that when different hotels get together and agree among themselves not to offer a particular rate (or to otherwise price-fix), that is against the law. And markieg appears to be correct. Any conspiracy in restraint of trade in the United States is a violation of the Sherman Anti-trust Act, and is punishable as a felony.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/foia/divisionmanual/ch2.htm#a1

So while any individual hotel owner can decide not to offer a government rate (or to offer a government rate that exceeds the current per diem reimbursement rate), when two or more hotel owners get together and agree not to offer a government rate, that would appear to be a conspiracy in violation of the Sherman Act.
I am a business attorney and I can tell you that anti-trust is a very complex issue dealing with specific factors and has many exceptions, one of which is the 1st Amendment. Merely referencing a set of statutes provides little if any understanding of the legal issues.

The situation with the hotel owners would depend on the specific facts.

Hotels are dropping a lot of rates. It is getting harder to use the IBM rate in some cities. NYC comes to mind, if you book on short notice they say they are full of that rate. With rates going up every week and rooms so full why would a hotel go out of its way to cut someone a deal.

I notice that the form letter campaign to GSA must have worked. The GSA Per Diem rate for Eatontown, NJ will be $106 beginning 1 October 2006.

I tried to make several random booking on the hhonors website and always come up with the following for Govt rate at the ABQ airport HGI

GOVT WITH BREAKFAST US FED/STATE/MILITARY GOV EMP-I.D. REQ
89.00 USD 1 KING BED Requested non-smoking
89.00 USD 2 QUEEN BEDS Requested non-smoking
105.00 USD 1 KING BED JR SUITE Requested non-smoking
95.00 USD 1 KING BED WHIRLPOOL RM Requested non-smoking
89.00 USD ROOM SELECTED AT CHECK-IN

According to https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html
the per-deim rate for ABQ is $66. So this is $23 over per diem (I know the rate says that you get breakfast, but I get breakfast free as a diamond!)

The HGI on Yale Blvd in ABQ has been tight on gov. rates and fastidious in checking ID/travel orders since they opened. It irks me but I just stay at the regular Hilton on University where even as a Gold they offer free breakfast cooked to order including Carne Adovada which I can eat three meals a day when in NM.

AFAIK, perdiem varies widely, depending on the location.

What you may be referring to is a notation in the list that, if the particular location is not mentioned specifically, then a general uniform rate applies.

Any travel coordinator worth his pencil can probably arange it so that your location winds up being in or near one of the locations. :)

Dead on. The Per Diem Committee (What a job!) sets the rates based upon typical three star level accommodations. There can be a large difference 20 miles in either direction from the destination. Though, of course, the destination is supposed to be the rate area you pick. There exists an "Other" that covers a base rate for the entire area. You can look up the Per Diem Committee online and find the rates for your area of travel.

https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html

Regards,
-Bouncer-

I notice that the form letter campaign to GSA must have worked. The GSA Per Diem rate for Eatontown, NJ will be $106 beginning 1 October 2006.

I know that the hotels were looking for $120 over the summer, so it sort of worked. They got $106 all year instead of $94.

The HGI on Yale Blvd in ABQ has been tight on gov. rates and fastidious in checking ID/travel orders since they opened. It irks me but I just stay at the regular Hilton on University where even as a Gold they offer free breakfast cooked to order including Carne Adovada which I can eat three meals a day when in NM.

I have stayed at the Homewood Suites just off Louisana Blvdwhich is pretty good. I must try the Hilton sometime.

There is a good thread about this on Marriott's page.

Part of the problem is the gross abuse of using the GOV reate when not entitled to.

Properties rarely check for proper ID and GOV rates sell out quickly.

Dead on. The Per Diem Committee (What a job!) sets the rates based upon typical three star level accommodations. There can be a large difference 20 miles in either direction from the destination. Though, of course, the destination is supposed to be the rate area you pick. There exists an "Other" that covers a base rate for the entire area. You can look up the Per Diem Committee online and find the rates for your area of travel.

https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html

Regards,
-Bouncer-

The problem as I see it is not with the adjusted area specific rates, its the CONUS rate. Pick a town anywhere in the US large enough to have a college or university and try to find a mid-range hotel with a refundable room rate of $60/night less than 14 days from check-in. It's almost impossible. If your work assignments allow you to plan weeks/months ahead, you stand a much better chance of securing a rate within per diem but those last minute emergencies handed down from the bosses can leave you trying to justify actuals to avoid the economy chains and bad neighborhoods. It makes sense to me that GSA could settle on a rate of $60/night if they are using the daily averages but those must include revenue from non-refundables from discount booking sites like Hotwire.

I suppose I must sound snooty not wanting to stay at an economy chain but I've had my share of bug-filled rooms, moldy-everything, lumpy beds and neighbors having parties on my door step. I'm not looking for the taxpayer to put me in a luxury hotel, just a brand that is consistently clean and safe. Comfortable would be nice as well. ;)

The problem as I see it is not with the adjusted area specific rates, its the CONUS rate. Pick a town anywhere in the US large enough to have a college or university and try to find a mid-range hotel with a refundable room rate of $60/night less than 14 days from check-in. It's almost impossible. If your work assignments allow you to plan weeks/months ahead, you stand a much better chance of securing a rate within per diem but those last minute emergencies handed down from the bosses can leave you trying to justify actuals to avoid the economy chains and bad neighborhoods. It makes sense to me that GSA could settle on a rate of $60/night if they are using the daily averages but those must include revenue from non-refundables from discount booking sites like Hotwire.

I suppose I must sound snooty not wanting to stay at an economy chain but I've had my share of bug-filled rooms, moldy-everything, lumpy beds and neighbors having parties on my door step. I'm not looking for the taxpayer to put me in a luxury hotel, just a brand that is consistently clean and safe. Comfortable would be nice as well. ;)

You hit the nail on the head- For the Navy, a lot of our places also tend to be "vacation" sites for folks, and depending on time of year, you may not even be able to get a hotel 90 days ahead of your travel (e.g. Okinawa during Golden Week). In the same trip I have paid $60/night, $150/night and $331/night all were OCONUS Gov't rates. It just get crazy sometimes... The last trip to San Diego (which started this thread), we had one guy up at Del Mar, 45 minutes away because that was the ONLY Gov't rate he could get and he was not allowed ANY overage by his management.

Also, thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, I am pushing a lot of the replys up to my bosses so that they can see I am not the only one encountering these problems.
r,
jim

Some hotels do seem to try to game the system to avoid delivering what they have promised. There is a Doubletree near the Pentagon I used to stay at for the convenience when I had business there, but not any more.

I had a confirmed reservation at that hotel at the government rate for a conference I had to attend. When I arrived, the desk refused to honor the reservation, saying the hotel was full. "Fine," I said, "Walk me." "No way," said the desk, "your reservation was cancelled." "By whom," I asked. "By you," they replied. "When," I asked. They punched some buttons and gave me a precise time that I allegedly cancelled the reservation. "Are you sure?" I asked. "Absolutely", they said, "the computer date- and time-stamped it."

It was then that I pulled out my plane ticket and boarding pass, showing that I was somewhere near Shannon at 35,000 feet at the time they claimed the reservation was cancelled.

A bit embarrassed to be caught in the lie, they called over the manager, who first stated that the hotel was full and that my reservation had been cancelled so they didn't have to walk me. After a little more discussion, the manager said that they might be able to come up with a room for me at the regular rate, but there were no rooms available at the lower rate I had booked. At this point, I noted that there was a significant difference between "there are no rooms" and "there are no rooms we'll give you at that rate, but we have some at a higher rate."

Ultimately the manager decided to give me a room at the rate I reserved, but stated that my reservation for the following days was cancelled. I was too tired to argue, took the room, and hit the hay.

The next morning, I got on the phone to Hilton Reservations and asked whether there were rooms available at the Doubletree where I was staying (although I didn't tell her I was in the hotel at the time) and she said there were. I then reserved a room for the following nights at the Government rate, and wrote down the confirmation number.

Since I had been checked in the night before for one day only, I went down to check out, did so, then moved over to check-in. They, of course, noticed this, and asked what I was doing. I told them that I had a reservation and I was waiting to check in. The guys at the desk said, "Your reservation was cancelled, you were told that last night." "I know," I said, "I have a new reservation." What's the number" they asked. I told them, and they pulled it up, saw that it was again for the government rate, and said, "We told you there are no rooms available at that rate." "Well, Hilton obviously thinks differently," said I, and mentioned that it wasn't just Hilton but also their hotel, since after getting the reservation I called the hotel (the one I was standing in) and asked their reservations lady whether there was any availability at the government rate (specifying) and had been told there was.

"She wasn't supposed to say that," one of them muttered. Finally, they said they would honor the rate for one more night.

I figured this was nonsense, so at the first break in the conference I got a reservation at a hotel nearby, and subsequently stayed at the other hotel for the rest of my stay. When I returned to home station, I mentioned this. Supposedly the transportation folks checked and couldn't get straight answers from Doubletree either, so we just don't stay there anymore.

Some hotels do seem to try to game the system to avoid delivering what they have promised. There is a Doubletree near the Pentagon I used to stay at for the convenience when I had business there, but not any more.


Your story is just sickening. Plain fraud is what this is and they should be called on it.

Some hotels do seem to try to game the system to avoid delivering what they have promised. There is a Doubletree near the Pentagon I used to stay at for the convenience when I had business there, but not any more.

The DT near the Pentagon on Army Navy drive is hit or miss IME. I've been upgraded to very nice suites on gov rates and I've also been sent to dismal caves. Also the rates they offer on the web vary wildly, with tons of per diem rate rooms at times, and at others nothing south of double the per diem rate.

The DT near the Pentagon on Army Navy drive is hit or miss IME. I've been upgraded to very nice suites on gov rates and I've also been sent to dismal caves. Also the rates they offer on the web vary wildly, with tons of per diem rate rooms at times, and at others nothing south of double the per diem rate.

Before I moved to the DC area I would always stay at the Foggy Bottom Doubletree. It is a few feet from the Foggy Bottom metro stop, so it is easy to get to the Pentagon on the Blue Line.

Before I moved to the DC area I would always stay at the Foggy Bottom Doubletree. It is a few feet from the Foggy Bottom metro stop, so it is easy to get to the Pentagon on the Blue Line.

Foggy Bottom DT Suites on New Hampshire is pretty good for GOV availability and they have finished replacing the hallway wall vinyl and have replaced the dishwashers and microwaves in at least some of the rooms. No lounge though.

Last week I stayed there at the AARP rate which was lower than the government rate.