Air Canada Aeroplan - The complaints fly high on Air Canada's service

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1152913811788&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

Air Canada wins no prizes for customer service. That's a message I hear loud and clear from my readers.

This should also be posted on the Newstand Forum - good article for all.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1152913811788&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

Air Canada wins no prizes for customer service. That's a message I hear loud and clear from my readers.

They seems not to care, as long as they keep winning on other fronts...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=579153

But we know that the most famous AC apologist has heard loud and clear that people are satisfied with AC at the various gates he visit, so he must be right and you must be wrong and so is the Star... ;)

The Toronto Star :eek: .Must have been another slow news day :rolleyes:

Interesting stories,that I have experienced at times personally,even in Northern Ontario ;) .

I have never been asked by the TO Star for comment :cool:

AC employee's themselves think the service sucks

.....is service at AC going to hell in a handbasket? Representing AC on board its aircraft has really been difficult over the past couple of months. I haven't worked a flight in weeks in which there wasn't a significant customer service problem over which the crew had no control. Despite assurances that our marketing people had benchmarked the service of other carriers, our new overseas J service was initially something of a public joke among our frequent flyers, bottles of olives and all. It has since been tweaked, but still attracts considerable negative feedback on board. We're supposed to be provisioned with a pillow and blanket for each seat on most international flights, but it has become pretty much standard that overnight flights even of 10 hours in duration are dispatched without pillows and blankets for economy, or with an insufficient supply of them. I have even had to operate to Europe without blankets for J class! I understand the reasons for the removal of free blankets and pillows on N American routes, but I can't for the life of me understand why when all of our competitors on overseas routes can provide and blanket and a pillow on every seat we cannot. Our customers deserve better, and I feel that we shouldn't have to put up with the embarrassment of explaining again and again that we're supposed to have blankets on board, but don't. Management either fails to understand how much dissatisfaction this creates for customers or simply doesn't care. On a recent flight of mine to the UK, we were minus blankets which was bad enough of its own. When we started to offer duty free sales, we discovered that only about 10 seatpockets out of over 200 had been provisioned with a brochure.

F/A: "Duty free goods, madam?"
Pax: "Do you have a list of what's on offer?"
F/A: "Um...well, no but........"
Pax: "That's allright, then, but when you have a moment would you get me a
blanket, please?"
F/A: "I'm sorry, but we don't have blankets either, madam"

On the pairing's return flight we departed 40 minutes late because catering had shorted us by 25 meals. On a recent domestic pairing, we completely ran out of ice during the outbound flight to a station at which no catering is provided. There would have been none for the return leg at all had an agent not run to a food concession stand and asked for a couple of bags of ice for us. How mickey mouse can we get? On two out of my last three 320 flights (on different aircraft) the audio system was completely inoperative. On the third, the audio system and reading lights (on an all-nighter segment) in one bank of J seats was inoperative and another J seat was locked upright and the customer was unable to recline in it. This week a passenger on a flight of mine felt sick, and suddenly said that she thought she was going to throw up. I quickly checked her seat pocket and the pockets of the two seats beside her for a sick bag, but there was none. Two of us darted through 5 rows of seat pockets before we managed to find a bag, but it was too late, and she threw up all over the place where she was because the airline that gives a damn hadn't provisioned its seat pockets with sickness bags. Nice. Most airlines crew the 767-300 on international sectors with a cabin crew of 8. Until now we have operated with 7 which has been fine, but crewing on South American 767-300 fights has just been reduced to 6. As a result, our service is slow and passengers often become impatient.

Montie drones on about our failure to meet "Likelihood to recommend" targets. He seems a nice man and he is obviously well intentioned, but I wonder if he even begins to get it. I understand that there are many factors that people consider when they shop for airline travel, but to the extent that the on board experience weighs in their decision, why would anyone recommend an airline for longhaul travel on which you can't get a pillow or a blanket, where the crew complement is inadequate to deliver the standard of service they'd get on a competitor, and where the cabins of many of the aircraft are nearly falling apart? Duh!!

Upgrades to the interiors are supposedly coming, but almost 2 years after they were promised at the Celine show we have completed the refurbishment of only 1 aircraft. Much of the equipment we fly, unfortunately, isn't just tatty and tired looking, it's in far worse shape than anything I have ever seen even on a third world carrier, and I have flown on several of them. I know that in a year from now we'll have a much nicer fleet than is now the case, but the horribly run down cabins are going to be in operation for quite a while yet.

I really hate to sound so negative, but the barrage of negative feedback and customer complaints I have been getting on board lately has left me feeling like something of a punching bag for Air Canada, and most of my friends who fly have been feeling the same way. Passengers, even when they're dissatisfied are usually not unpleasant to us as long as we make them feel that WE care and that we're doing the best we can, but it's stressful nonetheless. These customer service problems have been really frequent lately, and it would be nice if Montie would spend his time fixing them rather than replying to Globe and Mail editorials.

Are things really this bad, or have I just been unlucky lately?

These negatives stories, even if they are distorted reporting, are a public relations challenge.

They only serve to reinforce the conviction in many Canadian minds that AC is not doing a good job transporting the public.

For those of us on AC quite regularly,we recognize the story for what it is: a distortion of the truth.

For many Canadians already convinced that AC is not a good airline,it is only further confirmation of their convictions that domestic AC is inferior to WestJet in service.

Does the media have an anti AC bias? It would appear so...

Is this bad reputation merited? Certainly not in my flying experience....

However,there are enough bad AC stories floating around in the press,on the internet and by word of mouth that should convince the AC executives that they have a serious public relations problem with a portion of the Canadian public.

A problem that merits taking a hard look at how AC customers are treated from first contact to end of the flying experience.

Ivanhoe15...unless you have the guts to publish where that came from I say BS.

From the article:

"Peter Fitzpatrick, an Air Canada spokesman, says heavy rain at the end of June posed challenges for all airlines flying into and out of Toronto from the United States.

If lightning is detected around the airport, Transport Canada requires a "red alert" to be imposed. This brings all activity on the ramp to a halt.

"Effectively, you are running a stop and go airline with no warning about the stops, some of which can last hours," Fitzpatrick explains."



I presume that an airline that flies 60K pax a day and in reality has one major hub and has red alerts is supposed to stop on a dime and personally discuss the situation with each and every customer.....some people just don't get it.

While AC still has a way to go the more thye auotomate certain functions the more they will have the ability to deal with other "person to person" situations.

My daughter flew out to LHR last Monday, another red alert day...all we did was track the incoming flight on line and watched the airport weather reports. If either situation deteriorated we would have called the elite desk and made other plans. That causes less grief and aggravation than anything else.

The Star loves whiners in any event. It must help them sell those soap opera novels in the Harlequin Romance book division. They also picked the Liberals to win the last election and are generally a garbage newspaper.

These negatives stories, even if they are distorted reporting, are a public relations challenge.

They only serve to reinforce the conviction in many Canadian minds that AC is not doing a good job transporting the public.

For those of us on AC quite regularly,we recognize the story for what it is: a distortion of the truth.

For many Canadians already convinced that AC is not a good airline,it is only further confirmation of their convictions that domestic AC is inferior to WestJet in service.

Does the media have an anti AC bias? It would appear so...

Is this bad reputation merited? Certainly not in my flying experience....

However,there are enough bad AC stories floating around in the press,on the internet and by word of mouth that should convince the AC executives that they have a serious public relations problem with a portion of the Canadian public.

A problem that merits taking a hard look at how AC customers are treated from first contact to end of the flying experience.

They carry 60 plus years of baggage in an industry that is, at times, completely unpredictable a lot of the time due to weather, safety issues and simply bad luck at times. The peerson who had a bad experience when they last flew 5 years ago and manages to hit a red alert will blame AC because the weather is not live and the weather man does not man a counter in an airport.

An airline with sixty years legacy has certainly dealt with irops on a recurring basis. Bad wx occurs and throw the airline ops into chaos. Flights are delayed; flights are cancelled; aircraft and crews are not in position to operate flights. This is entirely out of the airline's control and the seasoned traveller knows this and accepts this fact as part of the job of flying.

The challenge is with the occasional traveller caught in the chaos. They don't understand what is going on at the time and simply experience a disruption in the journey. They don't have the travel experience and the tools that veterans like us have to solve the challenge of irops.

Where I fault AC during irops is the tone/quality/frequency of communication with the general public. While the airline seems to have communication SOPs to deal with communicating with delayed/standed pax, anecdotal reports in the press,on the internet seem to indicate that communications is a challenge during irops. AC needs to further work on this piece.

The challenge is with the occasional traveller caught in the chaos. They don't understand what is going on at the time and simply experience a disruption in the journey. They don't have the travel experience and the tools that veterans like us have to solve the challenge of irops.


Right. Irops can be a lot more stressful for the occasional traveler for at least three reasons:

1. They don't know what's going on, what to expect or what to do.
2. Their journeys usually have a greater personal significance for them than for the business traveler - vacations, special occasions, visiting sick relatives etc.
3. Airlines focus their efforts on dealing with their own FFs, and non-status passengers take a much lower priority.

The challenge is with the occasional traveller caught in the chaos. They don't understand what is going on at the time and simply experience a disruption in the journey. They don't have the travel experience and the tools that veterans like us have to solve the challenge of irops.

Exactly. While it's hard for some people on this board to understand, not all of the people who vent to newspapers are troublemaking whiners. They begin on what they think is a routine journey, something happens (whether the airline's fault or not), and the trip is ruined. If the airline doesn't communicate, and then goes on to make what may be perceived as excuses for its failure to communicate, people become dissatisfied.

Ivanhoe15...unless you have the guts to publish where that came from I say BS.

It was posted on the AEF by an AC FA. A few of his/her co-workers also agreed. But don't let truth stop you from defending The Great One.

Ivanhoe15...unless you have the guts to publish where that came from I say BS.

well Parnel I guess its not BS anymore. :rolleyes:

Thanks Ivanhoe15 for posting, we do appreciate two points of view. Some of can read it and not "cuss" back at you.

Ivanhoe15...unless you have the guts to publish where that came from I say BS.


The comments come from the AEF (theairlinewebsite.com) posted by an AC FA. Of course ivanhoe could have mentioned this in his post but chose not to for whatever reason. :rolleyes:

I've heard the same kind of compaints most summers for a long time as resources are stretched to the limit. The pillow and blanket situation in YYZ is made worse by the fact that they got rid of the only manager that had any kind of knowledge about YYZ Summer Cabin Grooming challenges.

From my own experiences flying Air Canada JAZZ, I find it to be very inconsistent. Sometimes the flights are on-time, other times there are big delays followed by a sudden cancellation. Another inconsitency involves the cookies. Why do they distribute them on some fights on the same route, and other flights you get nothing? I can't seem to figure out that one because there's no time-of-day or flight duration pattern. It's not a huge deal, but I just find it funny. I wonder if they only give them out when they suspect they're stale?

I've heard the same kind of compaints most summers for a long time as resources are stretched to the limit. The pillow and blanket situation in YYZ is made worse by the fact that they got rid of the only manager that had any kind of knowledge about YYZ Summer Cabin Grooming challenges.

That's really the issue isn't it? Sure, the weather is what it is, sure s*h*i*t happens. But resources stretched to the core is not an act of god, is it? A management decision, really. A choice between the added costs associated with bringing in more resources, vs. pissing customers off.

The only argument I can see in AC's defense is that pissing off customers in order to save money is the best strategy. But then I don't see that anyone can really be pissed off when the press voices complains. Or whiners raise their head on this forum.

Seriously, telling grandma to call a phone line that no one can get through is offensive, isn't it? That can't be the best way to run a business I would think? Except for Oakvillains presumably? :D

(Again, I suspect management is not aware/does not want to hear about or believe these issues until they turn into a PR mini-disaster.)

These negatives stories, even if they are distorted reporting, are a public relations challenge.

No, it is a public relations disaster(true or not), it will be very difficult to change perceptions.

That's really the issue isn't it? Sure, the weather is what it is, sure s*h*i*t happens. But resources stretched to the core is not an act of god, is it? A management decision, really. A choice between the added costs associated with bringing in more resources, vs. pissing customers off.

The only argument I can see in AC's defense is that pissing off customers in order to save money is the best strategy. But then I don't see that anyone can really be pissed off when the press voices complains. Or whiners raise their head on this forum.

Seriously, telling grandma to call a phone line that no one can get through is offensive, isn't it? That can't be the best way to run a business I would think? Except for Oakvillains presumably? :D

(Again, I suspect management is not aware/does not want to hear about or believe these issues until they turn into a PR mini-disaster.)

I would ask you to submit to a UA system weather disaster in ORD. I've been there several times and it is much worse than anything AC can do to you. We as FF'ers always want the most attention and that in itself takes away from services that can be provided to the infrequent traveller. AC's problem is that YYZ is almost always a tthe center of any problems and that is where the most planes are by far.

As for the emplyees who posted that stuff....if I found out who they were I would expose them to the rest of AC's staff and let them suffer the consequences because most AC staff are proud to work there.

No, it is a public relations disaster(true or not), it will be very difficult to change perceptions.

If you go back three or four years ago these PR disasters were almost the constant and now the Rag called the TO Star has to stretch its credibility even more to get a negative story out..............I call that a lot of progress with lots more to come. Lets face it when the fleet has been renewed AC will have a lot to sell both employees and pax.

The customer sees mostly 2 things; the crew and the aircraft.
That's where management should focus on. Looks like the aircraft situation will be taken care of though I really dread my upcoming flight in J YVR-ICN on Tuesday on an old 767, and with flight attendants it can be a hit or miss.
Mostly my experience with AC flight crew has been good. When they are good they are really good but it sometimes sadly also works the other way around.
On recent flight from YVR-YLW on a DASH 8 we had a wonderful flightattendant, she made her own personal announcements and went beyond the call of duty to please everybody, flight was completly full.
On the return we had a very good looking middle aged lady, my father and I commented to each other how much effort she made to look good, everything was perfect but we couldn't get even one smile out of her, no announcements from her, very grumpy attitude, I hope it was her just having a bad day.
When we exited the airplane we determined to get at least a smile out of her when we left, said thank you for the service etc. but nothing. Walking through the terminal we felt sorry for her.
I find that the flight attendants are very inconsistent and wish that could be changed. Even if all hell breaks loose like bad weather etc. what can make the day is someone who cares and goes the extra mile even if the situation can't be resolved on the spot as sometimes things in life are beyond our control.
I look forward to a better AC as aircraft are being replaced and refurbished and hopefull with all that crews will have more joy and pride in their working environment.

Years of brand equity and trust can wiped out with a PR disaster. A case in point would be the PR disaster of the largest dairy products producer in Japan(45% of market).........
http://www.mallenbaker.net/csr/CSRfiles/crisis04.html

I would ask you to submit to a UA system weather disaster in ORD. I've been there several times and it is much worse than anything AC can do to you. We as FF'ers always want the most attention and that in itself takes away from services that can be provided to the infrequent traveller. AC's problem is that YYZ is almost always a tthe center of any problems and that is where the most planes are by far.



Shall I repeat?

1. We all understand that the weather is what it is and no one can do anything about it. We live with it.

2. However telling grandma that to reschedule she should call a number that's impossible to get through is offensive.

If you want to save money by cutting people stationed at the airport for these events, at least you make sure your phone line is reasonably OK.

Now, since you know everything about AC, pray tell us, does AC do these things (1) knowingly, out of a desire to save money and who cares? Or (2) because they are clueless?

(If you can figure a third option, be my guest.)

But let me venture a guess. I would say (2) because the whole business continues to be poorly managed.

If you go back three or four years ago these PR disasters were almost the constant and now the Rag called the TO Star has to stretch its credibility even more to get a negative story out..............I call that a lot of progress with lots more to come.


Jeffrey Simpson doesn't work for the Star. Nor does the guy from Saskatoon. The reality is you don't have to stretch very far to read a negative story about AC.

The comments come from the AEF (theairlinewebsite.com) posted by an AC FA.

That exact passage was also posted on Montie Brewer's AC Intranet blog. Not sure where it appeared first but I suspect it was cribbed onto AEF.

I tend to believe it since in order to post on Montie's internal site you are required to post your real full name, which this person did.

That exact passage was also posted on Montie Brewer's AC Intranet blog. Not sure where it appeared first but I suspect it was cribbed onto AEF.

I tend to believe it since in order to post on Montie's internal site you are required to post your real full name, which this person did.
Well that would be the proper place to vent.......Kudos to the employee who stood up to be counted, for what must be a very frustrating work experience/enviornment.

I would ask you to submit to a UA system weather disaster in ORD. I've been there several times and it is much worse than anything AC can do to you.

I really like you guys defending AC by claiming that it is not the worse. Well... simply being better than the worse does not make very good.
(On this issue, kudos in fact to AC management, as it does not make this kind of argument to justify the sometimes poor level of service.)

Let's face it: AC/Jazz is bad because it can afford to be bad: most p*ssed customers have to come back anyways as there is no real alternative (to Timmins, at least, and to similar destination not on the WJ map).

Of course, most of these issues vanish if you are E/SE (simply phone the secret number), but then, what fraction of those 60k passengers do they represent?

...As for the emplyees who posted that stuff....if I found out who they were I would expose them to the rest of AC's staff and let them suffer the consequences because most AC staff are proud to work there.

No doubt most of them are, but continously having to make excuses for one's company will demoralize anyone. Cheaper fares come with a price, when you make cuts and run an operation very close to the bone, missing pillows etc are bound to happen. Hopefully AC is still fine-tuning the post-bankruptcy systems, and is monitoring these glitches.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Glad to see the Chief Apologist suffer on his return. Why don't people just believe what he says?

No doubt most of them are, but continously having to make excuses for one's company will demoralize anyone. Cheaper fares come with a price, when you make cuts and run an operation very close to the bone, missing pillows etc are bound to happen. Hopefully AC is still fine-tuning the post-bankruptcy systems, and is monitoring these glitches.

People wanted cheap and they got it. As for staff going public that's an absolute no no in my books and they should be fired. The union won't support that but b!tch and moan if there are layoffs due to a lack of business. I won't dignify the sad comment from our Edmonton friend who can only p!ss in the wind while AC does immesurably better in both sevice and in making money. He's like the malcontents in the union.

It was posted on the AEF by an AC FA. A few of his/her co-workers also agreed. But don't let truth stop you from defending The Great One.

What is the AEF?

Beyond that,as far as I can tell Ivanhoe did not not write that bit that he quoted, nor did he/she properly attribute it to a source, nor, it seems did he/she receive permission from the orignal source to reproduce it. Shame shame.

That exact passage was also posted on Montie Brewer's AC Intranet blog. Not sure where it appeared first but I suspect it was cribbed onto AEF.

I tend to believe it since in order to post on Montie's internal site you are required to post your real full name, which this person did.

It was first posted on the AEF and folks there suggested that the FA send it in to Montie so there would be no chance of it being "misdirected" if sent through internal channels.

Jeffrey Simpson doesn't work for the Star. Nor does the guy from Saskatoon. The reality is you don't have to stretch very far to read a negative story about AC.


For all his buffoonery and BS Simpson was seen boarding an AC flight recently. His company has contracts with AC so he must "endure" them. Looks good on him.

Ho hum, another day of bad publicity and another day of record loads and profitable ones at that. What most whiners don't get here is that while AC flies more than 60K pax a day the complaints are probably at about 1/50th of one percent. The real analysis is that the complaints are mostly due to stuff beyond AC's control. I would almost bet that real service letdowns by AC constitute no more than 5000 per year which is very good percentage wise.

I live in a community where many many people are flying all over the place all the time and they all fly AC because
A. the service is decent,not outstanding but ok
B. They have frequencies that no one can match.
C. They are pretty predictable.
D. Their service levels are improving if you have paid the right fare.
E. Their fares and passes are very competitively priced.

I know no one in my immediate circle,which is fairly large BTW, who flies WJA in Canada or other airlines long haul unless its a CNX that is not favorable to flying AC or its *A code share flights.

Biggest complaint I see is not about AC per se but the difficultly in spending points which is about to change.

It was first posted on the AEF and folks there suggested that the FA send it in to Montie so there would be no chance of it being "misdirected" if sent through internal channels.

It was posted on the blog and likely copied and pasted from there... :td: Not very impressive unless they have the writers permission. IMHO.

Folks I believe that Ivanhoe15 works for the competition.....

"So I guess we get the pet and gun lovers and AC gets the allergists and liberals.

I don't know. Maybe it is a zero sum game but I am happy to cater to the special needs groups. Sebring is probably right that there are costs involved. For example , I have heard many comments from disabled guests pertaining to their treatment from WestJet vs AC. That's great but I"ll tell you it sure slows the boarding process down when you have 3 or 4 wheelchairs to deal with. Time=money in this business."

Folks I believe that Ivanhoe15 works for the competition.....

"So I guess we get the pet and gun lovers and AC gets the allergists and liberals.

I don't know. Maybe it is a zero sum game but I am happy to cater to the special needs groups. Sebring is probably right that there are costs involved. For example , I have heard many comments from disabled guests pertaining to their treatment from WestJet vs AC. That's great but I"ll tell you it sure slows the boarding process down when you have 3 or 4 wheelchairs to deal with. Time=money in this business."


Where did this come from? :confused:

It was posted on the blog and likely copied and pasted from there... :td: Not very impressive unless they have the writers permission. IMHO.

It was posted on the AEF on the 12th, (since been deleted by the OP) and on the blog on the 14th. It was posted here by a WS employee that also has access to the AEF. That WS employee did not ask the OP for permission. Others on the AEF suggested to the OP that it should be sent off to the blog and the OP indicated it likely would be.

Its funny that same WJA employee never addresses the crooked stuff done by his fellow employees to get competitive information from the same airline he hates to acknowledge. It will show up on his bonus, or lack thereof, pay check.

Where did this come from? :confused:

It was posted by Ivanhoe15 some time back in another thread.....(I don't have the "nomad" to rely on to dig things up :mad: ;) , so I quoted instead :D ).

These negatives stories, even if they are distorted reporting, are a public relations challenge.

They only serve to reinforce the conviction in many Canadian minds that AC is not doing a good job transporting the public.

For those of us on AC quite regularly,we recognize the story for what it is: a distortion of the truth.

For many Canadians already convinced that AC is not a good airline,it is only further confirmation of their convictions that domestic AC is inferior to WestJet in service.

Does the media have an anti AC bias? It would appear so...

Is this bad reputation merited? Certainly not in my flying experience....

However,there are enough bad AC stories floating around in the press,on the internet and by word of mouth that should convince the AC executives that they have a serious public relations problem with a portion of the Canadian public.

A problem that merits taking a hard look at how AC customers are treated from first contact to end of the flying experience.

Stories about lousy customer service will always be reported while great customer service accounts go unnoticed. This is and always will be the norm hence why AC should try and minimize any story and concentrate on rectifying problems.

You mention that in your experience of flying with AC you have always recieved good service and have no complaints. I think I am not alone in saying you are the exception and not the rule if based solely on what i read in this forum and from speaking with fellow AC PAX. I may not be a road warrior but with more than 30 segs so far this year, I do have my fair share of AC history and it is far from sparkling so far.

I cannot say that AC is a lousy airline but can say that in my personal experience (all NA travel) AC customer service is average at best when things are problem free and severly inadequate when problems do arise. It's seems that most AC staff fall back on self-preservation mode when faced with a problem situation rather than helping it's customers , or what they are paid to do in the first place. Chalk it up to pay custs, a union / management disconnect or whatever, the ones that always end up paying are the customers. I long for the day when we have real competition in Canadian skies

Shall I repeat?

1. We all understand that the weather is what it is and no one can do anything about it. We live with it.

2. However telling grandma that to reschedule she should call a number that's impossible to get through is offensive.

If you want to save money by cutting people stationed at the airport for these events, at least you make sure your phone line is reasonably OK.

Now, since you know everything about AC, pray tell us, does AC do these things (1) knowingly, out of a desire to save money and who cares? Or (2) because they are clueless?

(If you can figure a third option, be my guest.)

But let me venture a guess. I would say (2) because the whole business continues to be poorly managed.

Save your typing for someone who cares. A few folks here will never understand how we can dare complain about such a wondeful airline that always puts it's customers first ;)

Ho hum, another day of bad publicity and another day of record loads and profitable ones at that. What most whiners don't get here is that while AC flies more than 60K pax a day the complaints are probably at about 1/50th of one percent. The real analysis is that the complaints are mostly due to stuff beyond AC's control. I would almost bet that real service letdowns by AC constitute no more than 5000 per year which is very good percentage wise.

I live in a community where many many people are flying all over the place all the time and they all fly AC because
A. the service is decent,not outstanding but ok
B. They have frequencies that no one can match.
C. They are pretty predictable.
D. Their service levels are improving if you have paid the right fare.
E. Their fares and passes are very competitively priced.

I know no one in my immediate circle,which is fairly large BTW, who flies WJA in Canada or other airlines long haul unless its a CNX that is not favorable to flying AC or its *A code share flights.

Biggest complaint I see is not about AC per se but the difficultly in spending points which is about to change.

I would have to disagree with you on a few points.

Yes complaints seem relatively low when compared to total PAX loads but what percentage of PAX actually do bother complaining even when they do have a legitimate gripe? I would tend to say most get upset and plan on email, fax or sending in a letter but never actually do (I being the first guilty party on this point).

I also tend to believe that most PAX that travel at least a few times a year understand conditions or events that are out of AC's control. I have no quams being delayed when thunderstorms are raging or ATC traffic delays are announced. What really upsets me is either not being told what the delay or cancellation is based on (easily rectified by a PA announcement or flight notification to my cell phone) or a problem that is directly related to AC (downgauge, staff or whatever) and receiving grief instead of sympathy from staff (forget about compensation, no one at AC dares mention that word).

I cannot say that AC is a lousy airline but can say that in my personal experience (all NA travel) AC customer service is average at best when things are problem free and severly inadequate when problems do arise. It's seems that most AC staff fall back on self-preservation mode when faced with a problem situation rather than helping it's customers , or what they are paid to do in the first place. Chalk it up to pay custs, a union / management disconnect or whatever, the ones that always end up paying are the customers.
I also tend to believe that most PAX that travel at least a few times a year understand conditions or events that are out of AC's control. I have no quams being delayed when thunderstorms are raging or ATC traffic delays are announced. What really upsets me is either not being told what the delay or cancellation is based on (easily rectified by a PA announcement or flight notification to my cell phone) or a problem that is directly related to AC (downgauge, staff or whatever) and receiving grief instead of sympathy from staff (forget about compensation, no one at AC dares mention that word).
This has been my experience as well. On a good day, AC has enough staff to just barely manage. On a bad day, you're better off trying to avoid contact with anyone wearing an AC uniform.

People (with a few exceptions) can accept delays if there is a reasonable amount of communication and effort to reaccomodate them. But instead, more often than not, stranded AC passengers are forced to wait in line for 2 hours only to be given the 1-800 reservations number to rebook, which is busy for the next 4 hours. When they finally get through, they find that there isn't a seat available for 3 days. And AC wonders why they're mad? Although I know to skip the lineup and call reservations immediately, occasional travellers do not. I've seen countless people go through the same song and dance everytime flights out of YOW are disrupted because of thunderstorms in YYZ.

IROPS problems aren't as bad in the US since the airlines use competing services to clear the backlog after a disruption. I have never seen AC do this.

AC may be making tons of money for their shareholders, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are a good airline. And as a passenger, I couldn't care less how profitable they are.

. The real analysis is that the complaints are mostly due to stuff beyond AC's control.

What a load of manure.

I would almost bet that real service letdowns by AC constitute no more than 5000 per year which is very good percentage wise.

More fertilizer. They wouldn't dare publish how many and probably can't because they forget given how long it takes for them to issue their typical form letter non-response.


I know no one in my immediate circle,which is fairly large BTW, who flies WJA in Canada or other airlines long haul unless its a CNX that is not favorable to flying AC or its *A code share flights.



How about yours truly!! :D

....

You mention that in your experience of flying with AC you have always recieved good service and have no complaints. I think I am not alone in saying you are the exception and not the rule if based solely on what i read in this forum and from speaking with fellow AC PAX. I may not be a road warrior but with more than 30 segs so far this year, I do have my fair share of AC history and it is far from sparkling so far.

Like you,I do many segments in one year.I travel ex YSB where Jazz is the only game in town.There are many IROPS here,IMO Jazz suffers 1st.I have learned how to properly ask the questions,IMHO,and how to deal with the array of issues any flyer can deal with in travelling by air

I cannot say that AC is a lousy airline but can say that in my personal experience (all NA travel) AC customer service is average at best when things are problem free and severly inadequate when problems do arise. It's seems that most AC staff fall back on self-preservation mode when faced with a problem situation rather than helping it's customers , or what they are paid to do in the first place. Chalk it up to pay custs, a union / management disconnect or whatever, the ones that always end up paying are the customers. I long for the day when we have real competition in Canadian skies

The majority of my travel is in North America as well.I have had positive resolutions to customer service issues.Not always what I expected,but also more than I expected, at times.I can recall on 2 fingers the issues that I have had over my last 179 segments. :cool: :)

I also have only about 30 segs on AC this year. I've had 0 problems, so can't comment on how AC operates under pressure. The service otherwise has been average or good--some surly or disinterested staff, but nothing that's compromised any flight.

Most of the complaints will be generated at times when people are most likely to be inconvenienced--I don't think it's helpful to point out that overall, AC's complaint rate is low (for reasons already mentioned). It would be more interesting to know how satisfied people are with AC's services during IROPS.

Well, should I say it surprises me, unfortunately no!!!!

I also fly quite a lot AC on long haul trip in ExecutiveFirst and unfortunately I have to fly them because it is the airline of choice of my company, nevertheless if I have the choice to choose another airline I do e.g. YYZ - FRA where I always fly Lufthansa.

I just noticed in the last couple of month further service decreases, such as the food is not anymore as tasty as it used to be.... on YYZ -FRA ( the night flight) they don't sereve anymore a warm breakfast, and the list goes on and on. I just hope with the retrofitting of the cabins things will become better again.

Well, should I say it surprises me, unfortunately no!!!!

I also fly quite a lot AC on long haul trip in ExecutiveFirst and unfortunately I have to fly them because it is the airline of choice of my company, nevertheless if I have the choice to choose another airline I do e.g. YYZ - FRA where I always fly Lufthansa.

I just noticed in the last couple of month further service decreases, such as the food is not anymore as tasty as it used to be.... on YYZ -FRA ( the night flight) they don't sereve anymore a warm breakfast, and the list goes on and on. I just hope with the retrofitting of the cabins things will become better again.

The Executive First meal service being offered from June 2006 is the new enchance meal service.Below is the thread on it when this service was rolled out in June I think.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=553780

The Executive First meal service being offered from June 2006 is the new enchance meal service.Below is the thread on it when this service was rolled out in June I think.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=553780

They dumped the olive jars and have made other changes......

They dumped the olive jars and have made other changes......

You are correct. They dumped olive jars.What other changes?

You are correct. They dumped olive jars.What other changes?

Ask the others who regularly fly trans-atlantic.....

I'm still waiting for Parnel to address my issue with the missing cookies :D

You are correct. They dumped olive jars.What other changes?
Changes have been made to the cheese service as well.

are they improvements? or changes?

are they improvements? or changes?

The cheese is served separately again as opposed to on the tray. I guess it's up to you to decide whether it's an improvement or just a change.

It is an improvement by going back to what it was :)

Hopefully we don't now get a lecture on UA cheese. ;)

It is an improvement by going back to what it was :)


Cheese never was AC service's strong point.

Another thing that seems to have come back in the champagne. OTOH the trays used are pathetic, worse looking than the ones used domestically (I know, not my highest priority; still, does not look good).

Today I put my hand on that issue of Global Travel where they gave AC top place on wines; as one would guess, there was a whole pile in the lounge at YYZ (and BTW yes, the watchdog asked for my SE card, BP was not enough; only at YYZ).

But anyway, I read the piece. Best guess is, they gave AC top price on the basis that they had more wines listed in the top 10 in each category than any other airline on the list.

AC had (1) the champagne that they subsequently stopped serving (but that may have come back) ranked first, plus two reds, (2) the Oregon pinot noir (Benton Lane) ranked 8, and (3) the Treana ranked 10 together with two other entries. Looking at the list, here are my comments.

First, on champagne. The whole list of ten are all decent stuff. Tenth is Veuve cliquot. Fourth is Moet et Chandon Brut Imperial. I am not sure how AC's Drappier came on top, and let's stay away of conspiracy theories, let's take it as really the panel having liked it. Still, to me the whole ten are decent stuff of roughly equivalent quality, and I have a hard time making a big deal with having AC on top.

Next, on reds. Here is my biggest beef. The top one was Iberia with what looks like a decent Ribera del Duero although not one that I am familiar with. No. 4 is a St Emilion, Clos des Menuts (Air Tahiti Nui), that probably retails for about $28 in Alberta and that's decent. Interinor regional French estingly, next one is a BC wine, Osoyoos Larose 2002, served not by AC but Finnair! (I am not familiar with it.)

Benton Lane, which I liked, perhaps the best AC had in recent years, comes 8. This is, after some miserable Bordeaux, Chateau du Cartillon, which retails for about $20 in AB, which I have tried and I would not buy for everyday consumption. As to Treana (which is avaiable in BC in specialty stores and is expensive) but I really dislike, it came up No. 10, together with some cheap plonk like Oxford Landing Shiraz. Incidentally, I like AC's new entry, that other shiraz which they currently serve.

The article mentions also a viognier that was reasonably OK but that they no longer carry. Of course not a Condrieu, but some minor regional French. While there are some decent (read: much better) Canadian viognier, including one from Jackson Triggs that retails around $19.

Still about the list, but not AC, top white was a Chablis, William Feve, that's mass produced and if my memory is correct is a bit sweet by my own taste but otherwise OK. Also, on sixt place, a California viognier (I think from a nondescript place in Central Valley) that's strong bodied (and which I like), Clay Station.

Also of note: the AC wine guy was on the panel.

Finally, my conclusion: they all serve decent champagne but on the whole, with a couple of exceptions, fairly poor wine. And I can't read too much of AC having come out first; perhaps inflation of small differences, or a fluke of the criteria used? Still, I am not prepared to believe that AC's wines are better than BA's, or Cathay or SQ.

(And yes, my two flights today were uneventful, isn't AC such a wonderful airline? :D )

With regards to champagne we should get Pucci Galore to impart with us some of her knowledge.....she knows her bubbles. ^

Next, on reds. Here is my biggest beef. The top one was Iberia with what looks like a decent Ribera del Duero although not one that I am familiar with. No. 4 is a St Emilion, Clos des Menuts (Air Tahiti Nui), that probably retails for about $28 in Alberta and that's decent. Interinor regional French estingly, next one is a BC wine, Osoyoos Larose 2002, served not by AC but Finnair! (I am not familiar with it.)


Osoyoos Larose is a joint venture of a large French winery, Groupe Taillon, and Jackson Triggs. The joint venture is based in Oliver, near J-T's own winery.

Osoyoos Larose Le Grand Vin is a blend of five wines

75% merlot
11% cab sauvig
6% malbec
5% petit verdot
3% cab franc

The wine retails for about $30 at select BC liquor stores

The 2002 was so-so

The 2003 is much better, or so I was told. I certainly hope so (as he holds a bottle, one of three from the wine cellar.)

Dear Boy and Girls - sorry one can never tell these days with these wonderful handles!

I am interrrupting my holiday and risking divorce from Him Indoors as he lays on the beach waiting for me to return to put sun cream on his back. Don't feel too much sympathy - he gets to luxuriate in First Class (I think) on the way home while I get to work. I believed that I was marrying into money - I was but I got to provide it! So, I am here by invitation. A man came and whispered to me!

Champagne is one of those subjects that usually run to about 10 pages of people moaning that we have removed Krug from the F cabin. We serve in the equivialnt of Executive on AC (an airline I always liked) Charles Heidsich which keeps it's fizz for ages. Actually that's the secret of a good airline Champagne keep it cold and keep it fizzy ( and keep it coming I hear you all say!). I have for years thought that Moet was also ran as far as Champagne was concerned it did very little for me taste wise - but there you have it kids it's all a matter of personal preference. Some people think that any old thing will do - I don't happen to subscribe to this point of view. God forbid that we would ever serve Prosecco - it's too light and not well balanced on flavour. I adore Pommery and I as that's where I learnt most about it - I love yeasty Champagnes - but again that's me. I have not drunk Drappier in years but have a good memory of same. I buy all my Champagne for the house in the Marne Valley in France from a little producer who makes his own which no one has heard of and in utter seflishness hope that they never will as it is so good. So many others now sell their grapes to the Big Houses as it does save a lot of work. Speaking of which I have been here so long that I will outstay my welcome.

Dear Q Shoe asked me over and told me that you wanted my knowledge of bubbles. I actually thought that he meant Michael Jackson's little pal (the one who never took him to court) but then after reading this realised that you had more than enough without any further scandal. Still I have this insane idea of them making a sequel to Evita "Bubbles" - Don't cry for me...oh the mind boggles!

So I will leave you, thank you for my invitation and if you are so pleasured I may pop by again. I did hear this wonderful story about an AC FA, a business class passenger and an olive jar and its contents ( I thought someone was going to tell that when I read through here!) - but you are much more serious tha BA Forum so I'd better not.


Hugs




PG

Osoyoos Larose is a joint venture of a large French winery, Groupe Taillon, and Jackson Triggs. The joint venture is based in Oliver, near J-T's own winery.

Osoyoos Larose Le Grand Vin is a blend of five wines

75% merlot
11% cab sauvig
6% malbec
5% petit verdot
3% cab franc

The wine retails for about $30 at select BC liquor stores

The 2002 was so-so

The 2003 is much better, or so I was told. I certainly hope so (as he holds a bottle, one of three from the wine cellar.)

I have 6 bottles of the 2003. :D
The Osoyoos Larose is usually sold out in the Lower Mainland of BC before the rest of us can get our hands on it.IMHO a very nice wine.
I know a hotel owner in the Okanagen Valley,hence my access to the stuff ^

I'm still waiting for Parnel to address my issue with the missing cookies :D

Reboot your computer and the missing cookies might show up again.

Reboot your computer and the missing cookies might show up again.
So now we know what you get up to when you're not around - helping out the AC technical support guys. :D

What is the AEF?

Beyond that,as far as I can tell Ivanhoe did not not write that bit that he quoted, nor did he/she properly attribute it to a source, nor, it seems did he/she receive permission from the orignal source to reproduce it. Shame shame.

Wow. Quite the reaction. PM's to point out rules of the game. I lifted it off the AEF. Many comments on the messenger rather than the message. I think some here should be concentrating on the problem at hand rather than looking for someone to blame for an honest opinion.

C'mon now. Anything put on the internet is fair game.

Bottom line. AC employee's have to bear the brunt of all these cuts management has made in their attempt to actually make money running an airline. It's gotta be tough. Believe me , WestJet employee's piss and moan too when the tools to do their job are taken away. Case in point...the elimination of free snacks. The difference though , was that management listened and cancelled the policy. It does'nt happen all the time but does happen enough to convince them that they do have a say. Owners ...you know.

Just thought that some here would be interested in what the people in the trenches think of the situation. Important info if you ask me...

Wow. Quite the reaction. PM's to point out rules of the game. I lifted it off the AEF. Many comments on the messenger rather than the message. I think some here should be concentrating on the problem at hand rather than looking for someone to blame for an honest opinion.


How do you know that the issue isn't being looked at internally or the information is factual??

Adding the source of your quote would probably have alleviated some of your comments. The original poster may not have appreciated having their post transferred without permission either.

How do you know that the issue isn't being looked at internally or the information is factual??

Adding the source of your quote would probably have alleviated some of your comments. The original poster may not have appreciated having their post transferred without permission either.

I don't and I can say the same thing for vitually anything else I find on the internet. We all have to take this stuff with a grain of salt although I believe this particular piece someones honest POV.
Fair enough on the transfer. It's happened to me and although being annoyed sometimes myself , upon further reflection I decided if you put it out there , it's obviously for public consumption.

I don't and I can say the same thing for vitually anything else I find on the internet. We all have to take this stuff with a grain of salt although I believe this particular piece someones honest POV.
Fair enough on the transfer. It's happened to me and although being annoyed sometimes myself , upon further reflection I decided if you put it out there , it's obviously for public consumption.

so we are to take everything with a grain of salt other than your stolen message...you must work for WJA because that seems to run in the culture.

so we are to take everything with a grain of salt other than your stolen message...you must work for WJA because that seems to run in the culture.

When there is a post coming from you parnel, I definitely take it with 3 dozens of grain of salt...;)

Ask the others who regularly fly trans-atlantic.....

Well as I said, no more warm breakfast, just a continental one, no more table cloth setting, at least on our flight - yeah enhanced service - I have read the thread about it - more a service cut back

It is always the same - airlines sell service cutback as a service enhancement and thus think the customer is stupid!!!!

Well as I said, no more warm breakfast, just a continental one, no more table cloth setting, at least on our flight - yeah enhanced service - I have read the thread about it - more a service cut back

It is always the same - airlines sell service cutback as a service enhancement and thus think the customer is stupid!!!!

So when prices go back to the levels of the late 80's or early 90's you will ge tthat first clas sservice. You want to pay 50% of what you used to pay per segment oveseas and expect a first class restaurant in the air :rolleyes:

So when prices go back to the levels of the late 80's or early 90's you will ge tthat first clas sservice. You want to pay 50% of what you used to pay per segment oveseas and expect a first class restaurant in the air :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, I think this answer is a little bit too easy:

There are still airlines who are able to offer a decent service to their premium customers
Why should customers always pay the price for mismanagement - and you certainly agree that there has been serious mismanagement within AC too
And I would tend to agree with your comment about the prices for the airlines with regard to econonmy class prices, but certainly not for business class prices if you look at any meaningful prices index for business class travel where there have been steady increases in the past years.


Oh yes, and by the way thank god I do have a choice in choosing airlines who just managed in the past years to manage more efficiently than other airlines and are still able to offer a decent service for their premium customers.

but what I resent the most with airlines, and it is not geared towards Air Canada, it is when they sell service setbacks as the biggest service enhancement for the last 10 years.

All the same, I have flown 30 segments this year and have yet to experience really bad service. In fact, I think the worse I had was an inoperative reclining function on a J seat on a domestic run 320. I had to endure it for a whole three hours :eek:
The only other thing that still bugs me is the quality of the BOB in Y.

This has been my experience as well. On a good day, AC has enough staff to just barely manage. On a bad day, you're better off trying to avoid contact with anyone wearing an AC uniform.

People (with a few exceptions) can accept delays if there is a reasonable amount of communication and effort to reaccomodate them. But instead, more often than not, stranded AC passengers are forced to wait in line for 2 hours only to be given the 1-800 reservations number to rebook, which is busy for the next 4 hours. When they finally get through, they find that there isn't a seat available for 3 days. And AC wonders why they're mad? Although I know to skip the lineup and call reservations immediately, occasional travellers do not. I've seen countless people go through the same song and dance everytime flights out of YOW are disrupted because of thunderstorms in YYZ.

IROPS problems aren't as bad in the US since the airlines use competing services to clear the backlog after a disruption. I have never seen AC do this.

AC may be making tons of money for their shareholders, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are a good airline. And as a passenger, I couldn't care less how profitable they are.


This is the post that should be brought to Brewer's attention. Absolutely dead on.

The gong show at YYZ over Canada Day weekend was a disgrace. The situation was bad to begin with, but its handling made things worse, not better. The question is, did AC learn anything from the experience?

[QUOTE]Oh yeah, I think this answer is a little bit too easy:huh huh its always easy.

There are still airlines who are able to offer a decent service to their premium customers

Those airlines are able to sell plenty of F/J seats at full prices. AC and most NA airlines can't sell enough of those premium seats at high prices.


Why should customers always pay the price for mismanagement - and you certainly agree that there has been serious mismanagement within AC too

I don't agree; AC had a CCAA problem that froze things for a couple of years and have union issues. Management has done a very good job bringing the airline back to respectability. New ERJ's planes have started to arrive and 777's are on the way as are new seats in all the older planes. These will have state of the art seating in J and Y.


And I would tend to agree with your comment about the prices for the airlines with regard to econonmy class prices, but certainly not for business class prices if you look at any meaningful prices index for business class travel where there have been steady increases in the past years.

Unfortunately thye don't sell enough of them at those prices to up the service levels. They think, and could be right, the new seats and 777's will bring higher paying customers.

Oh yes, and by the way thank god I do have a choice in choosing airlines who just managed in the past years to manage more efficiently than other airlines and are still able to offer a decent service for their premium customers.


good for you...we all want the best bang for our buck.

but what I resent the most with airlines, and it is not geared towards Air Canada, it is when they sell service setbacks as the biggest service enhancement for the last 10 years.

I think AC has been honest in their service approaches and meal cutbacks...they are selling the different service levels as customers having more choices which is fairly accurate IMO.

So when prices go back to the levels of the late 80's or early 90's you will ge tthat first clas sservice. You want to pay 50% of what you used to pay per segment oveseas and expect a first class restaurant in the air :rolleyes:

Is this Parnel telling us that AC has CUT service?????? 50%?????? :p

Those airlines are able to sell plenty of F/J seats at full prices. AC and most NA airlines can't sell enough of those premium seats at high prices.

Well I also don't agree with this comment, even if you look at airlines such as SQ and CX as well as LH they sell quite heavily discounted on certain routes, just not out of their home hubs, which is basically the same thing what AC is doing, if I look at YYZ - FRA there is normally nothing available such as a heavy discounted fee except for the regular J and C fares, same for YYZ - LHR where they compete with BA, the additional corporate discounts scheme for large company buyers are also given by the other airlines, there is no difference in such. And why are other airlines such as CX or SQ or even ANA able to sell at full fare, because they have such a strong product and people tend even to pay larger bucks because they have such a strong brand - also SQ and CX face ex SIN or ex HKG strong competition by airlines such as EK or TG who are heavily banking on discounted business class tickets. I cannot totally follow your argument.




I don't agree; AC had a CCAA problem that froze things for a couple of years and have union issues. Management has done a very good job bringing the airline back to respectability. New ERJ's planes have started to arrive and 777's are on the way as are new seats in all the older planes. These will have state of the art seating in J and Y. --> and what was with the merger of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada, clearly this was a little bit to big and the routing managment wasn't too good either or?




Unfortunately thye don't sell enough of them at those prices to up the service levels. They think, and could be right, the new seats and 777's will bring higher paying customers. --> we shall see, I would tend to say the new seats yes, type of airplane people don't take so much notice, although I have to agree in particular the 777 because of their roominess is incredible comfortable, but you still have to look at the overall product - if you look at YYZ - FRA LH in summer flies a 747- 400 with approx.60 business class seats - which is very difficult to get seats on despite the fact that they currently fly with their old business class seats, AC having two planes a day with a total of 55 seats business class is much easier to get seats despite the fact that with regard to seat pitch AC is the much better airline - so why it that so????? and don't put the price issue on, because in executive class prices are exactly the same between LH and AC




good for you...we all want the best bang for our buck.



I think AC has been honest in their service approaches and meal cutbacks...they are selling the different service levels as customers having more choices which is fairly accurate IMO.[/QUOTE]


Well you are not serious with this argrument - you don't want to tell that AC didn't want to sell their service enhancement as a cutback or? and when they cut back on Economy class service ) the famous on board cafe service, this was heralded as the newest revolution in on board service like other American Airlines did too.


so in summary it is imho fair to say the AC deserves his share of criticism.

;) Is this Parnel telling us that AC has CUT service?????? 50%?????? :p

Yep interesting comment - I think from time to time some self criticism doesn't hurt ;) ;)

Is this Parnel telling us that AC has CUT service?????? 50%?????? :p

sure for Tango fares and other very low fare classes..........you used to ge tfull meals on those cheap fares a few years ago and now you get what you pay for. Pay more, get a meal; pay more and get an assigned seat; pay more and get the chance to upgrade. Its all based on what you want to get for service.
That's the model most carriers leaning into.

sure for Tango fares and other very low fare classes..........you used to ge tfull meals on those cheap fares a few years ago and now you get what you pay for. Pay more, get a meal; pay more and get an assigned seat; pay more and get the chance to upgrade. Its all based on what you want to get for service.
That's the model most carriers leaning into.

Its exactly what most carriers are doing. Without exception, base fares have come way, way down compared to say 5-10 years ago despite Oil (the #2 cost to an airline) being 5 times the price it was. Generally gone are the Saturday night stay restrictions that forced most fares above the $1000 minimum mark for a midweek return to most destinations >600km.

What everyone now gets is massive choice - you want to use an airline like a bus service then there is an ultra-low but heavily restricted fare available. You want tix flexibility, u/g opportunities, advanced seat selection, FF miles, status miles and a meal then there is normally a fare combination that suits any or all of these.

Long may it continue ^

please learn to use the highlight and quote system if you're going to debate intelligently. drag your mouse over the part you want quoted and then hit the little cloud on the right above the message box.

[QUOTE]Well I also don't agree with this comment, even if you look at airlines such as SQ and CX as well as LH they sell quite heavily discounted on certain routes, just not out of their home hubs, which is basically the same thing what AC is doing, if I look at YYZ - FRA there is normally nothing available such as a heavy discounted fee except for the regular J and C fares, same for YYZ - LHR where they compete with BA, the additional corporate discounts scheme for large company buyers are also given by the other airlines, there is no difference in such. And why are other airlines such as CX or SQ or even ANA able to sell at full fare, because they have such a strong product and people tend even to pay larger bucks because they have such a strong brand - also SQ and CX face ex SIN or ex HKG strong competition by airlines such as EK or TG who are heavily banking on discounted business class tickets. I cannot totally follow your argument.

The NA airline industry is what I was discussing...none of them can sell the F/J product at full fare in enough quantities to make money at it. The NA american economy is based on getting things as cheaply as possible while Asians are more willing to pay for this. The FRA/LHR flights do very well with seriously discounted J class which is the only way AC can realistically fill those seats. Comparing AC to Asian carriers is not an apples to apples comparison and you should know that if you're a FF to Asia.


and what was with the merger of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada, clearly this was a little bit to big and the routing managment wasn't too good either or?

You obviously have no clue about that merger.....AC picked up all of the Asian routes with the CP merger....and guess where they make a lot of money now.


we shall see, I would tend to say the new seats yes, type of airplane people don't take so much notice, although I have to agree in particular the 777 because of their roominess is incredible comfortable, but you still have to look at the overall product - if you look at YYZ - FRA LH in summer flies a 747- 400 with approx.60 business class seats - which is very difficult to get seats on despite the fact that they currently fly with their old business class seats, AC having two planes a day with a total of 55 seats business class is much easier to get seats despite the fact that with regard to seat pitch AC is the much better airline - so why it that so????? and don't put the price issue on, because in executive class prices are exactly the same between LH and AC

You are totally wrong again. The seriously discounted J class prices on AC given to many large corporations and the federal government are no more than Y prices. The Europeans don't give those away that cheaply and they have the ability to connect pax from the middle east and parts of Asia,passengers that AC cannot yet attract.


Well you are not serious with this argrument - you don't want to tell that AC didn't want to sell their service enhancement as a cutback or? and when they cut back on Economy class service ) the famous on board cafe service, this was heralded as the newest revolution in on board service like other American Airlines did too.

Cheap fares and new service offerings are not BS but they did need to market the on board cafe services and the food while not great is selling very well. They are smply follwing the LCC's who are gaining market share because most people simply want to go from A to B paying the lowest fare possible. AC did not invent that cheap market. Thank Southwest and in Canada thank WJA for the cheapening of on board services.

so in summary it is imho fair to say the AC deserves his share of criticism.

In summary I would say you're out of touch with the real economics of flying.

It would be interesting for someone to take a stab at what the revenue blend would look like on a typical AC flight such as YYZ-FRA and how it might compare to the LH counterpart. Then what's the average pax cost front vs back cabin. Then a discussion on where the financial leverage/opportunity is.

none of them cannot sell the F/J product at full fare in enough quantities to make money at it.



I suspect that statement does not make any sense. Sounds like pure propaganda in favor of high fares.

We would need to start this discussion, as mentioned also by DWM_AC, by trying to assess costs for both J and C trips. Which at best would be an exercise in creative writing, in the sense that the results would vary wildly depending upon assumptions made. Average costs are essentially meangless, and even trying to evaluate them separately for Y and J becomes an exercise in futility.

At the end of the day, airlines live by selling a huge range of fares, some wildly higher than costs, and some wildly lower.

Now getting to my point: surely full fare J (and a fortiori Y) are way above the cost. What these fares do is in a sense balancing out the negative weight of ultra low fares in the overall mix. But given the current model (which in reality has not changed all that much since the nineties, regardless of all that spin about a new business model), it's about impossible for airlines to sell J at a reasonable price. Reasonable price meaning a price that people will be willing to pay, and that comfortably covers the costs. I am strongly convinced that such a fare exists and would be profitable. I would aslo bet these much discounted government and corporate fares that Parnel refers to are high enough to pay the bills. The catch is that aggressively selling such a fare would endanger the overall business model.

In a way, passes, M fares with immediate upgrades, some very low C class fares, do already belong in that category. But opening this up and marketing aggressively a realistically priced premium cabin so that it would fill up would apparently be scary for the airline. A first step, which I think AC has been talking, is the purchase of smaller planes such as the EMBs. Which will be followed by a drastic reduction in availability of very low fares. Hence presumably also the potential for realistically (read lower-) priced high fares.

In a way, the airlines are still prisoner of the 747 syndrome. A plane that was way too big but that they needed to have a status symbol. Which led to heavy discounting in order to fill them, hence the current business model.

Let's face it, especially in these times of high energy prices, flying ought to become more expensive, not cheaper. While disparities in the price range should be lowered.

Let's face it, especially in these times of high energy prices, flying ought to become more expensive, not cheaper. While disparities in the price range should be lowered.

The rest of your stuff is simply fluff, but the surcharges are driving up real fare costs and they are significantly more expensive now than say last summer.

It would be interesting for someone to take a stab at what the revenue blend would look like on a typical AC flight such as YYZ-FRA and how it might compare to the LH counterpart. Then what's the average pax cost front vs back cabin. Then a discussion on where the financial leverage/opportunity is.


If you knw how many seats each airline sells in every class you would know that...good luck in your search. My guess is that LH gets higher yields because of their larger cnx network from the middle east and India,etc.

You are totally wrong again. The seriously discounted J class prices on AC given to many large corporations and the federal government are no more than Y prices. The Europeans don't give those away that cheaply and they have the ability to connect pax from the middle east and parts of Asia,passengers that AC cannot yet attract.

Well sorry to return the favor, here you do not know what you are talking about, because the business model you are describing functions in a similar way at least for LH, at I do know what I am talking about since I work for a German company here in Canada on an assignment in a management position in a control function and I do know our global contract with LH with prices ex YYZ and ex FRA as well as have contacts to other companies. And secondly maybe if you are so in touch with the real economics of the airline you also can explain why an Airline such as LH which also is a full service airline, works on a global basis with a very extensive network domestically, regional and and interncontinental makes a profit, while working in a high salary environment under non favourable laobour conditions for companies and still is able to offer a decent service on short haul and long flights ( I am not saying great, but decent) and still makes a decent profit and hasn't gone to Chapter 11!, and please most European airlines give very big discount to their airlines such as AF or KLM, even BA dishes out in UK corporate discounts to english based companies which I know to, because I know the contract of our English subsidiairy with BA too.


And just a last word - I don't mind discussing in a more pointed way, but in certain aspects of your reply I do resent your tone - a little bit courtesy even on chat boards doesn't hurt anybody






[

If you know how many seats each airline sells in every class you would know that...good luck in your search. .....
I can sell you a computer program for a million or two that will do just that. Every major airline and quite a few smaller ones have such software .and the talented people to make it run.

.



And just a last word - I don't mind discussing in a more pointed way, but in certain aspects of your reply I do resent your tone - a little bit courtesy even on chat boards doesn't hurt anybody






[

I agree! However, courtesy and politeness is a foreign language to certain people from Oakville...unfortunately it's par for the course.

I can sell you a computer program for a million or two that will do just that. Every major airline and quite a few smaller ones have such software .and the talented people to make it run.

Well I don't want to buy the program (since most airlines end up in bankruptcy despite having the program), nor was I expecting a link to some yield management freeware. However, having someone take the "risk" of posting their assumptions on the yield mix for a major route, might help focus the discussion on this thread, e.g. a starting point for discussing Stranger's comment that there may be a market for a "reasonably" priced J fare. While airlines may find their current business model for business class very lucrative, it is a market that is totally dependent on customers who are not spending their own money - that is a risky business to be heavily reliant upon.

fluff


Pot, kettle...

Anyway, I think I am resting my case at this point.

However, having someone take the "risk" of posting their assumptions on the yield mix for a major route, might help focus the discussion on this thread, e.g. a starting point for discussing Stranger's comment that there may be a market for a "reasonably" priced J fare.

Recently I have heard about some airlines offering all J-class flights ( I
believe LH are doing some from USA-Germany).
Anyone know what those load factors are like?

Recently I have heard about some airlines offering all J-class flights ( I
believe LH are doing some from USA-Germany).
Anyone know what those load factors are like?

I don't know about the load factors, however, I can confirm that at least there is the ORD-FRA being offered as a full J a/c by LH in the summer time.

.

[QUOTE]Well sorry to return the favor, here you do not know what you are talking about, because the business model you are describing functions in a similar way at least for LH, at I do know what I am talking about since I work for a German company here in Canada on an assignment in a management position in a control function and I do know our global contract with LH with prices ex YYZ and ex FRA as well as have contacts to other companies. And secondly maybe if you are so in touch with the real economics of the airline you also can explain why an Airline such as LH which also is a full service airline, works on a global basis with a very extensive network domestically, regional and and interncontinental makes a profit, while working in a high salary environment

LH has economies of scale that AC can only dream of. They operate two key hubs in Germany a country with much higerh population density than Canada. The economics are vastly different. LH has a much larger international network that bridges very high density population centers in the middle east and India,etc. They have amny more planes than AC as well. That being said AC as part of ACE is now profitable and possibly doing better than LH on a return on investment although I'm not exactly sure of that comparison.

under non favourable laobour conditions for companies and still is able to
They certainly do not have more unfavorable labor conditions than AC


offer a decent service on short haul and long flights ( I am not saying great, but decent)

Decent but not better than AC regional flights and I've been on five LH regional flights this year alone.


and still makes a decent profit and hasn't gone to Chapter 11!,

Shows how little you really do understand about airlines and their economics....AC's entry into CCAA was due to the untimely merger with CP and the huge debt load CP had. It had nothing to do with AC's operations.

And just a last word - I don't mind discussing in a more pointed way, but in certain aspects of your reply I do resent your tone - a little bit courtesy even on chat boards doesn't hurt anybody

I simply asked you to learn how to use the boxes above the posts to make it easier for all to follow........if that bothers you,tough.

Shows how little you really do understand about airlines and their economics....AC's entry into CCAA was due to the untimely merger with CP and the huge debt load CP had. It had nothing to do with AC's operations.

Not the merger + 9/11 + SARS? AC entered CCRA April 1st, 2003, a long time after AC assumed control of CP, which happened December 8th, 1999. Had all those other factors not occured, would AC have been able to avoid CCRA even with the heavy CP debt load it assumed?

Not the merger + 9/11 + SARS? AC entered CCRA April 1st, 2003, a long time after AC assumed control of CP, which happened December 8th, 1999. Had all those other factors not occured, would AC have been able to avoid CCRA even with the heavy CP debt load it assumed?



It is CCAA for corp. restructuring, not CCRA which is canada Revenue agency.
Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act ( RS, 1985, c. C-36 ). Disclaimer: These documents are not the official versions (more). ...
lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-36/ - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

I stick with my opinion that the merger was the ultimately cause of the CCAA.

Parnel, in spite of the occasional disgareements I am glad to see you back on this board. And, just to show that I don't always disagree with you, I just want to reiterate that the LH service isn't really that great. J from CPT to FRA was nothing to write home about. I did miss AC on that flight.

...I stick with my opinion that the merger was the ultimately cause of the CCAA.

Poor management. Start out after privitization debt-free, cash in the bank, and a brand new fleet....

On a positive note: miracle, miracle, yesterday the MLL watchdog at YYZ did not ask for my Aeroplan card!

(Instead she punched something in her computer.)

On a positive note: miracle, miracle, yesterday the MLL watchdog at YYZ did not ask for my Aeroplan card!

(Instead she punched something in her computer.)


No she didn't..she touched the screen where it said SE or whatever premise you got in there as.

Poor management. Start out after privitization debt-free, cash in the bank, and a brand new fleet....

Wrong again as usual........AC was never ever debt free;bad managment was the feds forcing the merger and no layoffs...Eastern money again bailed out a falied western airline. WJA is next within five years.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=23ad3dab-cb31-422f-bd90-e9e1b547d20f

Competition, rising fuel costs prompt WestJet downgrade


'Market perform': Cherniavsky lowers rating after 16 months at 'buy'


WestJet Airlines Ltd. is suffering from "self-inflicted cost creep" as it tries to continue expanding amid high-fuel prices and mounting competition from a revived Air Canada, warned a prominent analyst who has downgraded the airline's shares.

No she didn't..she touched the screen where it said SE or whatever premise you got in there as.

Perhaps. But she would have to get me on screen in the first place. I don't suppose they have a list of the SEs going through YYZ on screen at all times?

Perhaps. But she would have to get me on screen in the first place. I don't suppose they have a list of the SEs going through YYZ on screen at all times?

Just your BP which showed your SE status or your J class seat or both.

[QUOTE=ThWilmesi].





[QUOTE]They certainly do not have more unfavorable labor conditions than AC

You are just not informed about labour market conditions in Germany compared to Germany. I am working now for six years in Canada on an expatriate assignments so I had a little bit of time observing the Canadian labour market as well as before I have worked for my whole labour life in Germany being German actually. The German labour market is more heavily regulated than the Canadian market, and this applies also to the Airline industry. Labour unions are more organised and play a bigger role in each big company's life than here, partially due to the fact that there are represented in top management board as well as supervisory board, due to that they have a direct influence into the management decisions, so please don't say that conditions are so unfavorable, in fact economic situation in Canada is in general more favorable than in Germany also with a much lower jobless rate here.



Decent but not better than AC regional flights and I've been on five LH regional flights this year alone.

I think that is a matter of opinion and taste. At least with LH on a 3-4 hours regional flight you still get something to eat for free and you do not have to put up with a sometimes smelling cabin because people tend to bring their own food.


I simply asked you to learn how to use the boxes above the posts to make it easier for all to follow........if that bothers you,tough.


No I am sorry Parnel, it wasn't because of this remark, because I can accept some crtiticism if I can't use a tool properly, I am even grateful for some recommendation, but I resented your tone on your comments in general, obviously it is so easy to spat on an anonymous board. I have noticed when reading quite several of your post that you are very quick to attack people, this is at least how I feel it. I think in the opposite, because it is fairly anonymus on this board, I feel courtesy should be the norm, but that is maybe my opinon and you think different. If you want to continue to spat please PM me or even better I am not far from you I actually work in Burlington and live in Toronto, we can also continue our discussion face to face in a bar after work

Gentlemen no Bar Brawl please, only a civilised discussion over some Ontario Wines. :D

Gentlemen no Bar Brawl please, only a civilised discussion over some Ontario Wines. :D

Why ruin a good discussion with Ontario wine?? ;)

Just your BP which showed your SE status or your J class seat or both.

First time in ages they don't ask for the card, with a BP showing both J class and SE. And yes, she did touch sometihng on her computer before letting me in.

First time in ages they don't ask for the card, with a BP showing both J class and SE. And yes, she did touch sometihng on her computer before letting me in.


you either didn't look like your usual Calgary cocky self or you were dressed up for a change :D

you either didn't look like your usual Calgary cocky self or you were dressed up for a change :D


Me, dressing up? Never. As always, when traveling, jeans, a casual long sleeved shirt and shoes.

But I do get off my sandals and tee-shirt when arriving at the airport. Always. As to cocky, I suspect this would be another case of pot, kettle...

As to cocky, I suspect this would be another case of pot, kettle...
I never have problems and almost always get addressed by name b/f they see any BP or SE card. ;)...........in YYZ,FRA, LHR and YEG for sure

I never have problems and almost always get addressed by name b/f they see any BP or SE card. ;)...........in YYZ,FRA, LHR and YEG for sure


Proud of cockiness, eh? :D