Practical Travel Safety Issues - If Richard Reid took his shoes off...

If Richard Reid took his shoes off and sent them through the x-ray machine, would it have detected anything? In other words, would the current shoe removal policies have prevented him from boarding?

If it would have detected his explosives, how hard would it be for the bad guys to create a shoe bomb which wouldn't trigger any alarms? (I am making the assumption that the x-ray machine doesn't sniff for explosives)

As long as the materials used look roughly like those found in shoes as far as material densities go, the x-ray wouldn't have detected a thing.

The question is: how "well constructed" was this 'shoe bomb'? Did the bomb maker try to make the explosive charge look like an insole or a heel? Was there a blasting cap that would have been very noticeable? Was the fuse disguised as laces?

And, would he have tried to sneak on explosives in his shoes, if he knew he'd have to take them off and send them through the X-ray machine? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he'd try to hide his "device" elsewhere, maybe he'd be deterred. Who knows.

And, would he have tried to sneak on explosives in his shoes, if he knew he'd have to take them off and send them through the X-ray machine? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he'd try to hide his "device" elsewhere, maybe he'd be deterred. Who knows.

Who knows?

I know.

If someone wants to take explosives past the checkpoint, they will succeed at any checkpoint that does not have a "puffer" machine.

Why?

Plastic explosives are non-ferro/ferrimagnetic. They will not alarm at the WTMD.

Plastic explosives are malleable. They can be shaped into any form a person desires and then reshaped later. So, plastic explosives fit into undergarments. They fit into body cavities. They can be molded to a person's flesh. A pat-down will not reveal their presense if they they are in a person or in a person's undergarments. A pat-down is unlikely to reveal molded plastic explosives if molded carefully. How much material is needed? A volume the size of a pack of cards/cigarettes will do nicely, and most people can conceal that easily.

Plastic explosives are easy to detonate. One needs (usually) a blasting cap, a fuse/electric wire and (if desired) a timer. The blasting cap looks a lot like a capacitor or a diode. Furthermore, one can devise a blasting cap that isn't even metallic by packing a cylinder or similar object densely with non-metallic (once again) gunpowder, though a true blasting cap is more reliable. A traditional blasting cap hidden in electronics will not be detected, especially if the device has diodes and capacitors or resistors in quantity. It could also hide behind/near a nice, dense transformer. The x-ray won't detect the presense of a blasting cap and nor will a chemical swab if the blasting cap is properly improvised and/or properly placed among other electronic components. Need a fuse? A little detcord won't show up on the x-ray, other than as string. Electrical wiring? It's already in your computer/other electronic devices. Voltage for the wiring? A battery or outlets on the aircraft/in the airport will do just fine.

The only way the x-ray will detect a bomb is if someone is stupid enough to shape it into the shape of one of those cartoon bombs on those loopy signs at the checkpoint or just brings TNT in sticks ("duh, are those candles?") or if someone is kind enough to assemble the components of the bomb into a circuit with a nice, tell-tale timer device so that the drone at the x-ray sees all 4 components. ("wow, a candle-powered clock. Cool.").

The puffer machine or ETD test are the only real pieces of technology currently in use a checkpoints that detect explosives. ETD is not used very often because it is slow. Moreover, it will not work if someone has the explosives on/in themselves and hasn't been nice enough to handle the explosives before touching their carryon.

Michael Chertoff and Kip Hawley are two stupid imbeciles who think that shoe harassment or ID harassment or cheap feels at happy house will defeat the above explanations. They are completely wrong and someday innocent people will suffer more than just the un-American harassment currently in progress at this nation's airports. These two imbeciles are completely unqualified for their positions. I wouldn't let either of these filthy little punks clean my toilet, let alone secure our nation's airports and airplanes.

The only way the x-ray will detect a bomb is if someone is stupid enough to shape it into the shape of one of those cartoon bombs on those loopy signs at the checkpoint or just brings TNT in sticks ("duh, are those candles?") or if someone is kind enough to assemble the components of the bomb into a circuit with a nice, tell-tale timer device so that the drone at the x-ray sees all 4 components. ("wow, a candle-powered clock. Cool.").



LMAO! :D

I have seen the x-rays that were taken of Reid's shoes. You can tell......

The xray isn't the only way one would find a shoe bomb. Once shoes go through the xray they are in close proximity to the xray operator/and or bag checker who can easily pick up the shoes and examine them rather quickly if need be.

The xray isn't the only way one would find a shoe bomb. Once shoes go through the xray they are in close proximity to the xray operator/and or bag checker who can easily pick up the shoes and examine them rather quickly if need be.

I have seen the x-rays that were taken of Reid's shoes. You can tell......

While you guys beat your own chests about thinking you can do it, I'm going by the facts Spiff just provided here (and in the past) and the bagel the TSA posted in the 21 items that made it past you guys.

Catch something for real and prove us wrong.

bag checker who can easily pick up the shoes and examine them rather quickly if need be.

How does the bag checker determine if there is a need to examine?
Presumably the checker can determine this an item has been obviously cut open and sealed up again in an amateurish way. But what if the terrorist isn't an amateur like Reid? What if he has a friend who works in a shoe factory?

Yes, you may blame Richard Reid for you now having to take off your shoes. As to your question about being able to see it, yes. The TSA does train screeners in how to see what a boot looks like regular and with an explosive in it. And no, it doesn't have to have anything but a mass for us to pick it up as suspicious.

A tampered shoe is going to stick out like a sore thumb. If you have a sole that has been cut or ripped, its going to look suspicious to the naked eye of the bag checker/xray operator....and thats assuming nothing shows up on xray.

Yes, you may blame Richard Reid for you now having to take off your shoes. As to your question about being able to see it, yes. The TSA does train screeners in how to see what a boot looks like regular and with an explosive in it. And no, it doesn't have to have anything but a mass for us to pick it up as suspicious.

ewrchick.....welcome to FlyerTalk and the TS/S Forum!
And thanks for your input on this subject.

A tampered shoe is going to stick out like a sore thumb. If you have a sole that has been cut or ripped, its going to look suspicious to the naked eye of the bag checker/xray operator....and thats assuming nothing shows up on xray.You would think that if one could easily detect a shoe that has been cut or ripped, one could determine when the sole of a shoe is less than one inch in thickness...

A tampered shoe is going to stick out like a sore thumb. If you have a sole that has been cut or ripped, its going to look suspicious to the naked eye of the bag checker/xray operator....and thats assuming nothing shows up on xray.In big cities in the U.S., we've forgotten about shoemakers and shoe repairmen. In the rest of the world, they are very common- every small town has a few. They are often very highly skilled, and their shoes look better than factory-made. So forget about tell-tale external signs.
So, it's all a question of whether carefully shaped plastic explosive insoles will show up on the xray, and we can assume the bomb-maker will do both shoes so one isn't obviously different from the other.

A tampered shoe is going to stick out like a sore thumb. If you have a sole that has been cut or ripped, its going to look suspicious to the naked eye of the bag checker/xray operator....and thats assuming nothing shows up on xray.

Are you kidding me?

Does the TSA think that all would-be shoe bombers are impulsive idiots?

"Hmm... these Nikes would really be a great place to hide some plastique. I'll just cut them open and stuff some in."

Someone who is planning on bringing explosives past the checkpoint (for real) is probably well-financed, especially if he/she can get his or her hands on real plastic explosives instead of having to make his/her own out of petroleum jelly and potassium nitrate. That someone will probably be able to make a Nike shoe look like... *surprise* a Nike shoe.

Just because Richard Reid was a bumbling amateur is no reason to set Bomb Detection on "Stupid". My God, monkeys banging on typewriters could write a better SOP than the TSA. :eek:

You would think that if one could easily detect a shoe that has been cut or ripped, one could determine when the sole of a shoe is less than one inch in thickness...

You'd think . . . :rolleyes:

Just because Richard Reid was a bumbling amateur IMHO, he was a strange and stupid (I'd say half-wit, but that's not PC) hanger-on wannabe, his handlers decided to use him as a throw-away to test an idea. If they were serious, they would have used a well trained, dedicated fanatic. And if they choose to go that route again, we can assume they will do a very polished, well tested and thought-out method.

In big cities in the U.S., we've forgotten about shoemakers and shoe repairmen. In the rest of the world, they are very common- every small town has a few. They are often very highly skilled, and their shoes look better than factory-made. So forget about tell-tale external signs.
So, it's all a question of whether carefully shaped plastic explosive insoles will show up on the xray, and we can assume the bomb-maker will do both shoes so one isn't obviously different from the other.


Will a thin layer of plastic explosives in a shoe be enough to do more than blow up someone's feet? Reed tried to pack his heel with explosives.

You'd think . . . :rolleyes:

day come through saying my shoes don't meet the profile. I put them against a ruler...2 inches. I guess spacial visualization skills aren't valued in the corporate world either.

Will a thin layer of plastic explosives in a shoe be enough to do more than blow up someone's feet? Reed tried to pack his heel with explosives.I don't know, but whether or not one would use the heel, it would certainly be easier to just carry much more explosives somewhere else. What do you think of the possibilities raised in post #4 of this thread?

Yes, now that the shoe plot has been foiled forever, real terrorists will never think of putting explosives anywhere else on a person.. ever. Wouldn't Richard Reid have been successful if he simply decided to light the fuse in the bathroom instead of in his seat? He could have given the fuse time to dry off, or use the paper towels in there (Oh, no, maybe the TSA will remove all paper towels from planes now)... In fact, with a small amount of explosive material even, if he used the lavatory right behind the flight deck, it would probably damage the electronics in there if not blow a hole in the fuselage...

IMHO, he was a strange and stupid (I'd say half-wit, but that's not PC) hanger-on wannabe, his handlers decided to use him as a throw-away to test an idea. If they were serious, they would have used a well trained, dedicated fanatic. And if they choose to go that route again, we can assume they will do a very polished, well tested and thought-out method.

We can.

However, without a change of "leadership" and philosophy, the TSA will not. Hopefully, it will not take a catastrophic incident to effect such changes, but as a betting man, I'd say such an incident would almost be required.

Congress: If you're serious about airport security, hire me or somebody like me. I know what I am talking about. Kip Hawley is a clueless "good-old-buddy" appointee who *will* make you regret his employment.

Will a thin layer of plastic explosives in a shoe be enough to do more than blow up someone's feet? Reed tried to pack his heel with explosives.

Why would someone need to have a "thin layer" of explosives in their shoes to get the explosives past the checkpoint?

Moreover, why would the explosives even need to be in shoes?

Are you just avoiding my points in this thread, or do you just not care?

:confused:

Why would someone need to have a "thin layer" of explosives in their shoes to get the explosives past the checkpoint?

Moreover, why would the explosives even need to be in shoes?

Are you just avoiding my points in this thread, or do you just not care?

:confused:
If smugglers can put a kilo of heroin up there butts why not explosives? Would a WTMD or x-rayed shoes pick that up? How about a puffers?

Just another reason not to use heroin.....

If smugglers can put a kilo of heroin up there butts why not explosives? Would a WTMD or x-rayed shoes pick that up? How about a puffers?

Just another reason not to use heroin.....

The puffer will detect a kilo of explosives up someone's butt because in all probability, the particles of the explosive adhered to their person or clothes when the explosive was inserted. It would take a surgical cleanroom effort to prepare a carrier who would not have some molecules of explosive dislodged and detected at the puffer. That is why the technology is so good and should be in place at every checkpoint lane.

The puffer can be calibrated to detect drugs as GE and other companies developed this technology not only for airports but also for prisons. The TSA claims that the portals in use are not calibrated for drug detection. I have not done any research in this area but I hope this is one of the few times that the TSA is not lying.

Richard Reid was not the only terrorist who used his shoes to smuggle IED components onto an airplane. Look up the Bojinka Plot.

Richard Reid was not the only terrorist who used his shoes to smuggle IED components onto an airplane. Look up the Bojinka Plot.

To save any interested parties a little research, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Bojinka) a Wikipedia link to Bojinka Plot.

If Richard Reid took his shoes off and sent them through the x-ray machine, would it have detected anything?


I think the real question here is:
If Richard Reid had hidden the explosives in his pants. would we now be dropping our drawers instead of taking off our shoes.

THAT is the question!

:D

Michael Chertoff and Kip Hawley are two stupid imbeciles who think that shoe harassment or ID harassment or cheap feels at happy house will defeat the above explanations. They are completely wrong and someday innocent people will suffer more than just the un-American harassment currently in progress at this nation's airports. These two imbeciles are completely unqualified for their positions. I wouldn't let either of these filthy little punks clean my toilet, let alone secure our nation's airports and airplanes.

I could not have worded it better myself, Chertoff really put me on edge with his moronic terrorism funding plan. How can he justify giving New York low funding because New York lacks "landmarks" (Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty, Chrysler Building, Lincoln Center, the list goes on and on). The same goes for Washington D.C. Why does Bush have to resort to cronism? :(

You can blame the leaders of the organization all you want.. they're just puppets.

Why would someone need to have a "thin layer" of explosives in their shoes to get the explosives past the checkpoint?

Moreover, why would the explosives even need to be in shoes?

Are you just avoiding my points in this thread, or do you just not care?

:confused:


Every screener has seen What Richard Reed's shoes looked like on an xray. The IED would have been caught if his shoes had been xrayed. A large mass of explosives in a shoe is not going to look like a shoe sole. The sole and the mass of explosives aren't going to have the same density so two different shades of color are going to show up on xray.

Will a thin layer of plastic explosives in a shoe be enough to do more than blow up someone's feet? Reed tried to pack his heel with explosives.

That is the point that so many of us make about shoes with very thin soles and heels. There is not enough space in shoes such as boat shoes to hide an amount of explosive substance that will harm an airliner.

Every screener has seen What Richard Reed's shoes looked like on an xray. The IED would have been caught if his shoes had been xrayed. A large mass of explosives in a shoe is not going to look like a shoe sole. The sole and the mass of explosives aren't going to have the same density so two different shades of color are going to show up on xray.

Big deal. So all a terrorist has to do is fill BOTH shoes with explosives so they look the same and then TSA won't be able to tell the difference.

Gee, Wilbur. I never thought of that. :rolleyes:

Every screener has seen What Richard Reed's shoes looked like on an xray. The IED would have been caught if his shoes had been xrayed. A large mass of explosives in a shoe is not going to look like a shoe sole. The sole and the mass of explosives aren't going to have the same density so two different shades of color are going to show up on xray.

But what if the sole of each shoe is only explosives, so that there is no difference in density?

...my shoes don't meet the profile. I put them against a ruler...2 inches.

You didn't by any chance use a metric ruler (2 cm instead of 2 inches) ;)

2 inches... I just don't see how anyone could mistake 2 inches for less than one. I also can't imagine wearing 2 inch soles -- that's pretty much "high heel" for me. Funny people you have to deal with on an everyday basis :)

HTB.

But what if the sole of each shoe is only explosives, so that there is no difference in density?

A :D to Pat for the me too post. :D

A :D to Pat for the me too post. :D

Hey, cut me some slack! I have had a few drinks tonight to unwind after a rough week, and I did not see your post. What can I say, great minds think alike! :D

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

Why would someone need to have a "thin layer" of explosives in their shoes to get the explosives past the checkpoint?

Moreover, why would the explosives even need to be in shoes?

Are you just avoiding my points in this thread, or do you just not care?

:confused:


Every screener has seen What Richard Reed's shoes looked like on an xray. The IED would have been caught if his shoes had been xrayed. A large mass of explosives in a shoe is not going to look like a shoe sole. The sole and the mass of explosives aren't going to have the same density so two different shades of color are going to show up on xray.

Richard Reid was a bumbling AMATEUR. Someone with even a moderate amount of financing could easily make a shoe IED that would appear normal on the x-ray.

Moreover, as I've said countless times, explosives can be brought through the checkpoint easily without being in shoes.

The shoe carnival is a senseless waste.