Newsstand - Uh-oh, now Qatar may "review" its planned order for 60 A350s

Doubt that Qatar will cancel its plans, but it joins those beating up on Airbus for the A350 (A370?) situation.

UPDATE 1-Qatar may review $10 bln A350 deal with Airbus

Sun May 21, 2006 11:09 AM ET
(Adds comments on 777 deal, forecasts, fuel)

By Dayan Candappa
SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt, May 21 (Reuter) - Qatar Airways may review a $10 billion deal with Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) to buy A350 planes, after the European firm signalled plans for changes to the aircraft that could delay delivery, the airline's chief executive said.

Qatar Airways, based in the booming Gulf Arab region, became Airbus's largest customer for A350s when it signed a letter of intent last year to buy 60 of the mid-sized planes, which are being outsold by U.S. rival Boeing's (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) 787 Dreamliner.

Chief Executive Akbar Al-Baker said Qatar was still committed to the deal but could not place an order until it knew the specifications of the new model, and warned that delays created by an expected overhaul could upset the airlines' plans.

"We have not signed a purchase agreement because we cannot ... purchase an airplane which is undefined," Baker told Reuters in an interview on Sunday.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCompanyNewsArticle.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:re uters.com:20060521:MTFH54754_2006-05-21_15-09-36_L21299940&symbol=EAD.PA&rpc=44

This isn't a problem yet. I suspect this is a PR move to apply some pressure to Airbus to get their act together.

Doubt that Qatar will cancel its plans, but it joins those beating up on Airbus for the A350 (A370?) situation.



http://yahoo.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCompanyNewsArticle.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:re uters.com:20060521:MTFH54754_2006-05-21_15-09-36_L21299940&symbol=EAD.PA&rpc=44
And just why would we care that Airbus looses and order? Buy Boeing!

And just why would we care that Airbus looses and order? Buy Boeing!

There's another website for that kind of remark. Feel free to go on over there...

www.airliners.net

:rolleyes:

QR seems to be like SU and is bouncing back and forth between both companies (probably trying to seek the best deal).

QR never firmed their original A350 commitment beyond a Letter of Intent and now they are reviewing their 777-300ER "order" against the A340-600 (of which Airbus has 20 available thanks to EK cancelling their order).

The new A350MkV will be bigger, heavier, and later (now 2012 at the earliest) then the MkIII or MkIV they signed their LOI on, all of which are heavier and later then the 787. They have to wait until Airbus either releases the MkV or states what (if anything) they intend to do with the MkIV before they can sign a new LOI or actually place a firm order with deposits.

Also, as Airbus pushes back the A350, 787 slots (especially 787-9 slots) become available at the same time or sooner. And with the largest model, the -1000, expected to be 2014 to 2015, that puts it in service shortly before Boeing could roll out the competing Y3, allowing Boeing to leap-frog the A350-1000 just as Airbus is claiming the A350MkV-1000 will leapfrog the 787, 777, and A346.

With more than 180 commitments nearly half a decade before the first model is scheduled to fly commercially, the A 350 is one of the most sucessful airline programs in aviation history and has outsold the 787 at every production stage so far.

Estimates how heavy an A 350 will be are , once again, wild wild speculations and not based on any hard facts at this point...

Doubt that Qatar will cancel its plans, but it joins those beating up on Airbus for the A350 (A370?) situation.



The business plans of Qatar, Etihad or Gulf are not very well thought through and so far their only intention was to be part of the game DXB and EK are playing, but they are lacking indepth knowledge to follow EK so far.

If Qatar has a market for 60 A 350 is written in the stars and if another carrier can operate next to EK flying 650 seat 2 class A 380 to India and 800 seat A 380 to Australasia is pure speculation.

QR seems to be like SU and is bouncing back and forth between both companies (probably trying to seek the best deal).

QR never firmed their original A350 commitment beyond a Letter of Intent and now they are reviewing their 777-300ER "order" against the A340-600 (of which Airbus has 20 available thanks to EK cancelling their order).



Every smart airline is certainly bouncing back and forth between Airbus and Boeing, however especially in the Near East Boeing has political problems to sell aircraft. Remember that Clinton had to send some troops to Bosnia in order to get the Saudia deal more than a decade ago.

Based on the pure assumption that neither Boeing nor Airbus could beef up their production over a certain size anyway, it is not important actually who will order Airbus and who will order Boeing.Delivery market share of Airbus was 57 % last year and not much more was possible anyway...

Three of the prime and major airlines on this planet , namely BA, AF and LH need to replace massive parts of their fleet and will order Airbus and Boeing probably 50/50 anyway.

If we add AA to the calculation, not necassarily a prime, but at least a proud airline, we are talking about another pretty big order and only people blinded by patriotism think that AA will order from Boeing exclusively...

As for the specifications of the A350MkV, we know what they are for the MkIV because Airbus was nice enough to tell us. And since the rumors are the MkV will be larger, it's a given the plane will be longer, wider, taller, and heavier, since we know Airbus will not be going to CFRP fuselage sections, but will continue to use Al and Al-Li. Since we know what Al and Al-Li way per unit of measure, if you use X+Y, that will weigh more then X. ;)

Hopefully the MkV will not be too big, so as to chase off some of the carriers who wanted something smaller, who would have no real choice but to purchase the 787 or suffer with less efficient A330s and 767s.

As to the statement a plane with 100 orders has outsold one with 350, I guess that must be that "new math" I keep hearing about. :p

Someone please call me when they've money in the bank and people on the planes.

Someone please call me when they've money in the bank and people on the planes.

Well both companies do have money in the bank. So can I put ya on hold till 2008 when Boeing will have people on the planes? :D

There's another website for that kind of remark. Feel free to go on over there...

www.airliners.net

:rolleyes:Okay, I give up. Why is that "kind of remark" not allowed on FT? Is there a secret rule against being pro-Boeing? I guess I'm in the uneducated class, too, so why should we care whether Qatar Airways buys AirBus or Boeing?

Okay, I give up. Why is that "kind of remark" not allowed on FT? Is there a secret rule against being pro-Boeing? I guess I'm in the uneducated class, too, so why should we care whether Qatar Airways buys AirBus or Boeing?

Airliners.net, unfortunately, is rife with what are known as "cheerleaders" - people who believe Airbus or Boeing is the better company. While at a meta-level it's not something really bad, unfortunately too many take it to extremes, coming up with absolutely ridiculous convolutions and logic to show why either Airbus or Boeing is the "one, true choice" and the other is a "dangerous heresy that must be expunged from the face of the Earth". And then you just have the trolls who like to fan the flames because they think it's funny.

As such, it makes it extremely difficult for those who wish to discuss the issues and merits of both companies and their product lines. Some of us still try, however, seperating the "wheat" from the "chaff".

So far, the respective cheerleaders on FlyerTalk have been far less...ridiculous...for the most part, which allows those of us who wish to hold a logical discourse to do so. So don't take it personally. :)

Thanks for explanation, SEA_Tigger. I thought I was missing out on some good drama (not that I need to look much beyond the DL forum to find that). ;)

Hopefully the MkV will not be too big, so as to chase off some of the carriers who wanted something smaller, who would have no real choice but to purchase the 787 or suffer with less efficient A330s and 767s.

As to the statement a plane with 100 orders has outsold one with 350, I guess that must be that "new math" I keep hearing about. :p

The decision which materials will be used is completely open at this point again, so speculations about the weight cannot be taken too seriously.

Since the 787 is about three years ahead in the production cycle, it does not surprise at all that is has more commitments.

The point is, actually quite easy to calculate, that Airbus sold more 350 than Boeing 787 at every production stage so far, so 182 is more than the number that Boeing sold at the comparable date for the 787.

While thinking about it, they actually tried to sell it as a Sonic Cruiser at that point, right ? :)

I thought I was missing out on some good drama (not that I need to look much beyond the DL forum to find that). ;)

After losing more than 14 billion, this basic fact alone creates some real drama even without some posters demanding 777 on US domestic routes and applauding international expansion into obscure secondary markets ;)

Okay, I give up. Why is that "kind of remark" not allowed on FT? Is there a secret rule against being pro-Boeing? I guess I'm in the uneducated class, too, so why should we care whether Qatar Airways buys AirBus or Boeing?

It's as SEA_Tigger says, airliners.net has daily Airbus vs Boeing threads that rapidly degenerate into "our plane is better than yours" "no, our plane is better than yours" pantomine bs. My comment was made in the hope that FT can rise above the level of a.net and have more adult debate.

While CASA of Spain certainly has extensive experience with CFRP structures, Boeing has secured a great deal of Intellectual Property dealing with their use in commercial airliners which might blunt Airbus' ability to quickly design and construct a CFRP plane ala the 787.

Also, Airbus managers have publically stated that a CFRP A350MkIV would save only 550kg of weight. Since the A350MkIV weighs 7,000kg more then 787, even if the MkV is as heavily CFRP as the 787, it's going to weigh thousands of kilos more since it will be bigger then the MkIV.

And if Airbus sells one A350 a week and Boeing sells six 787s a month, Airbus may sell more planes per-week then Boeing, but Boeing sells more planes per month then Airbus. And since overall sales and deliveries are what count, I guess Airbus' victory can be defined as "Phyrric".

And I find it amusing people keep raising the Sonic Cruiser and it's cancellation as a "failure" by Boeing. Perhaps it was, but Airbus has cancelled three versions of the A350, and now looks to cancel a fourth. And all four of those versions had customers! Airbus has also cancelled the A340-500E and A340-600E programs, and those had at least one customer (EK) as well!

Cancelling six programs with paid orders... Sounds like a brilliant marketing plan to me. Darn shame Boeing only cancels programs that don't have orders. :D

And if Airbus sells one A350 a week and Boeing sells six 787s a month, Airbus may sell more planes per-week then Boeing, but Boeing sells more planes per month then Airbus. And since overall sales and deliveries are what count, I guess Airbus' victory can be defined as "Phyrric".

And I find it amusing people keep raising the Sonic Cruiser and it's cancellation as a "failure" by Boeing. Perhaps it was, but Airbus has cancelled three versions of the A350, and now looks to cancel a fourth. And all four of those versions had customers! Airbus has also cancelled the A340-500E and A340-600E programs, and those had at least one customer (EK) as well!

Cancelling six programs with paid orders... Sounds like a brilliant marketing plan to me. Darn shame Boeing only cancels programs that don't have orders. :D

You can try to neglect the facts, but as hard as you try, you cannot change the fact that Airbus sold more A 350 at the comparable production stages in comparison to Boeing 787 sales...let`s discuss it two years before the first commercial flight again and let`s see , if Airbus managed to sell 350+...

And as far as I know Airbus still intends to produce the A 350 so I doubt that they will cancel the program. As long as the design is not yet finalised, one cannot speak of a cancelled program, if some specifics are changed...

However since the mention the term " phyrric " are we getting back to the Qantas 787 order ? ;)

It's as SEA_Tigger says, airliners.net has daily Airbus vs Boeing threads that rapidly degenerate into "our plane is better than yours" "no, our plane is better than yours" pantomine bs. My comment was made in the hope that FT can rise above the level of a.net and have more adult debate.

I think that FT is a perfectly good place to have an Airbus vs. Boeing discussion. However, since the lines are generally drawn along national boundries, it can get ugly sometimes. By telling someone to go elsewhere to discuss a topic :( , you are attempting to shut-out someone who might have something good to contribute to our forum...thus taking yet one more thing away from our community. :td: if the moderator doesn't like the way this thread is going, than he or she will close the thread accordingly.

That being said, I applaud any news that Airbus might be losing sales. That is one of the reasons that I fly CO exclusively (and sometimes WN)...because the use nothing but the best...nothing but BOEING! :D

I think that FT is a perfectly good place to have an Airbus vs. Boeing discussion. However, since the lines are generally drawn along national boundries, it can get ugly sometimes. By telling someone to go elsewhere to discuss a topic :( , you are attempting to shut-out someone who might have something good to contribute to our forum...thus taking yet one more thing away from our community. :td: if the moderator doesn't like the way this thread is going, than he or she will close the thread accordingly.

That being said, I applaud any news that Airbus might be losing sales. That is one of the reasons that I fly CO exclusively (and sometimes WN)...because the use nothing but the best...nothing but BOEING! :D


:td: :rolleyes: I made a suggestion to take a look at airliners.net with a view to joining their airbus vs boeing debate since the comment made was on a par with what one finds over there.

And why on earth would you applaud Airbus losing sales (not that they actually have) if the airlines you fly never buy them in the first place. Some sound thinking there guy :rolleyes:

A decent line of arguement would be; Airbus is struggling to make headway in the the midsize airliner market with the A350 against the B787 which is undoubtedly a worldbeater. The A350 needs some serious redesign to be a long term contender.

Ultimately, if it were not for Airbus pushing Boeing to produce great planes and vice versa you might well be flying sub-standard aircraft. As a consumer you want both to succeed to push the overall quality of the product you fly.

Oh well might as well through in my $.02 on this topic.

As I look at these two projects I have a hard time thinking that they are actually competing in the same market. What I mean by that is that the A350 is a larger aircraft than the 787. The simple fact is that the A350 will hold more people than the 787. The only point where they might be competing is that the A350 (smallest proposed size) may have the same number of pax as the largest 787 (787-10). This is based on the actual numbers of passengers the airlines will put in it.

I see the A350 as an airbus attempt to go after the 777 market and the 787 as going after the 767 and A330 market. As realistically I see the 787 as a 250 pax aircraft and the A350 as a 300+ pax aircraft.

The various airlines that are looking at them are looking at them for different reasons. In fact if I can find it somewhere, the size creep of the A350 over the various revisions has come to the point that some airlines (US) are starting to wonder if it is too big for their needs. If that is so then Airbus is sizing itself out of customers. So as it increases in size, Airbus may find itself generating more customers for Boeing and 787.

The one thing I look at is firm orders to tell me the sucess of a program. Options and commitments don't really mean much until they become firm orders. Why, becasue they could disapear or never come to fruition. The interesting thing to watch is what becomes of the comitments that Airbus has at this point after this next stage of redesign.

Overall, I think that Airbus really needs to decide on what the A350 is going to be. Is it going to compete with the complete 787 line or is it going to compete with the 777. If it cannot then I would think scraping this program for a while makes the most sense and to divert its attention to the next generation A320 so that it has a well thought out product to compete with the RG737.

In the end it is best for all of the airlines to have two strong competitors manufacturing mainline aircraft. The airlines win, and hopefully the passengers win as well.

...In the end it is best for all of the airlines to have two strong competitors manufacturing mainline aircraft. The airlines win, and hopefully the passengers win as well.That, and I hope the poster forgives my fixing a couple of typos, is what it really comes down to. Toyota pushes Honda and vice versa, BMW pushes Audi and vice versa, etc., etc.

To continue the automotive analogy, Toyota and Nissan both cover the same range with their sedans even though their models don't exactly line up - a Nissan Altima is somewhere between a Corolla and a Camry, for example. Despite the lack of perfect matches, anyone who wants a car in that space can find a model of each that will suit. Similarly, Airbus and Boeing don't need models that match precisely. It's not like there's a market for a 250-seat aircraft that's noticeably distinct from the market for 260-seat aircraft.

Each airline has a curve that describes the distribution of aircraft sizes it would ideally want on all its segments. Practicality requires satisfying every point on the curve with a small number of aircraft types. The problem is that if you use one that's too big, you waste money. Use one that's too small, you turn away paying passengers. What they have to do is map each possible fleet mix onto this curve, taking into account that a given route may include segments with different requirements, and that much of their fleet already exists, and see what falls out. Their business analysts, supported by computers with decision support software, know how to do this. (If an airline needs help, my consulting rates are reasonable.)

As I look at these two projects I have a hard time thinking that they are actually competing in the same market. What I mean by that is that the A350 is a larger aircraft than the 787. The simple fact is that the A350 will hold more people than the 787.

The A350MkIV had a passenger capacity advantage over the 787 when both offered eight-abreast seating. When Boeing offered nine-abreast, the 787 equalled the A350's passenger capacity. As the A350MkIV could not go to nine-abreast conveniently (in other words, you can put 3+3+3 in an A350MkIV but you'd need new carts and overheads and such), Airbus lost one of it's advantages.

However it is beginning to look like the A350MkV is indeed competing in a seperate market from the 787 and we've been discussing it at length on airliners.net.

The 787 is a more effective family of airplanes, as it competes with / can replace the B753, the B763, the B764, the A306, the A310, the A332, the A333, the A342, the A343, and the B772.

The A350MkIV competes with / can replace the the B763, B764, the A332, the A333, the A342, the A343, and the B772.

The A350MkV competes with / can replace the B764, the A333, the A343, the B772 and the B773.

Airbus can't really play in the 748 zone, because if they do, they risk canabalizing A380 sales. But they're losing ground with the A346 vs. the B773 and the A343 vs. the B772. So it looks like Airbus has made a conscious decision to terminate the A340 line, since the A350 will be better then the A342, the A343, and the A346. That just leaves the A345, and Airbus will either try and get the A350 to meet that mission or just abandon it to the B772LR.

Airbus may also be taking a page from Boeing, and just letting the A330 "hang on" as best it can against the 787 (as the 767 did against the A330), offering what incremental improvements they can to keep "entrenched" Airbus/A330 operators buying the plane, hoping enough of them don't bail to the 787. Then, when those operators need larger twins, Airbus will have the A350 to offer them.

I see the A350 as an airbus attempt to go after the 777 market and the 787 as going after the 767 and A330 market. As realistically I see the 787 as a 250 pax aircraft and the A350 as a 300+ pax aircraft.

The 787-9 and 787-10 will each seat 300+ in three classes. And even a 787-11 would play in the 773ER's realm, just as the A350-1000 would. Boeing could conceivably go even farther, with a 787-12 stretch, but that plane would be a bit longer then the A340-600 (though slightly more structurally efficient due to the better fuselage width to length ratio) and would probably be a real nightmare for ground handling operations.

Last Updated: June 5, 2006 08:48 ED
June 5 (Bloomberg) -- Qatar Airways, which had committed to buy 60 A350s from Airbus SAS, may choose Boeing Co.'s planes instead for long-haul routes because the European planemaker hasn't spelled out what kind of plane it will bring to market.

"We're not going to wait forever,'' Qatar Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker said today in an interview at the International Air Transport Association meeting in Paris. "If things don't happen in the timeframe we want to happen, then of course we'll look somewhere else.''

Bloomberg Article (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aVwvjf76.pUc&refer=europe)

QR evidently doesn't have a firm order for the A350, so they can do whatever they want.

Rumor du jour on airliners.net is QR is the source for the 20 773ER UFO's ordered.

They had said they wanted 20 of them at Paris last year, but never consumated the deal. Rumor was with EK cancelling their A346 order, QR was going to pick them up, instead, since it offered some commonality with the A350s.

QR might feel the 787 is the only real choice for them in the small widebody, now that Airbus will be making a larger twin, and as such committing to Boeing for the 787 on the small-end and 777 for the upper now makes sense more then Airbus.

Guess we'll know when Boeing announces the UFOs.