JetBlue TrueBlue - Does JetBlue really fly in the middle of the night?

Sorry if this has been discussed (I wasn't successful finding anything with Search), but I am a CO Plat Elite and I was thinking of paying for JetBlue to SJU next spring (vs using oodles of CO miles for a cheap flight). Do they really fly at these strange hours? 3AM departure from SJU? Forgive my JetBlue ignorance. Is this part of how they are trying to save money/utilize their assets to the fullest? How many people want to fly at 3AM?

Thanks.

Sorry if this has been discussed (I wasn't successful finding anything with Search), but I am a CO Plat Elite and I was thinking of paying for JetBlue to SJU next spring (vs using oodles of CO miles for a cheap flight). Do they really fly at these strange hours? 3AM departure from SJU? Forgive my JetBlue ignorance. Is this part of how they are trying to save money/utilize their assets to the fullest? How many people want to fly at 3AM?

Thanks.

Yes, obviously they fly those routes at those times, and from my experience the flights are full (into Newark and JFK)

Yes. And hurray to B6 for such high aircraft utilization rates.

Well you certainly don't HAVE to fly at those time, but they offer some flights like that, yes.

On a transcon run, its amazing. They'll have like a 5:30 departure out of IAD to LGB, get in around 8:30, turn right around and be a 9:30 LGB-JFK flight, get in at 6:30 AM, turn back around at 7:15 or so to SAN or OAK or something, and onward all day long.

The aircraft only sits when its being loaded/unloaded and serviced, that's it.

On a transcon run, its amazing. They'll have like a 5:30 departure out of IAD to LGB, get in around 8:30, turn right around and be a 9:30 LGB-JFK flight, get in at 6:30 AM, turn back around at 7:15 or so to SAN or OAK or something, and onward all day long.

When something goes wrong, the delays are pretty amazing too. :eek:

Yet another reason to de-emphasize transcons for growth, IMHO.

Sorry if this has been discussed (I wasn't successful finding anything with Search), but I am a CO Plat Elite and I was thinking of paying for JetBlue to SJU next spring (vs using oodles of CO miles for a cheap flight). Do they really fly at these strange hours? 3AM departure from SJU? Forgive my JetBlue ignorance. Is this part of how they are trying to save money/utilize their assets to the fullest? How many people want to fly at 3AM?

Thanks.

Unless the summer schedule is different...all flights that say on the eastern seaboard depart JFK by 2400. I believe the SJU flight leaves JFK at 2340 and gets into SJU at 0230, unloads, turns around, and comes right back. The return flight is almost always sees load factors around 100%.

Are there no noise restriction laws at SJU?

When something goes wrong, the delays are pretty amazing too. :eek:

Yet another reason to de-emphasize transcons for growth, IMHO.
Yes the delays are not great, as with any airline -- but when something goes wrong that is jetBlue's fault (example: lack of crew, mechanical, etc.)...they are quick to apologize with a $50 or so voucher for each customer booked on the delayed flight. Obviously, this does not apply for delays not within their control, due to weather or airport fault.

Also, jetBlue has the HIGHEST completion rate in the industry...in most cases, they prefer to go late than cancel the flight altogether. And, ontime performance is greatly improving once again.

Well for that reason I still can't get over the amazing lack of foresight involved in selecting an aircraft that can't complete major routes without a fuel stop a decent portion of the time. Whatevery money they saved by getting a deal from Airbus surely must have been squandered by now by the costs associated with delays from A320s that can't make it across the country.

Yes the delays are not great, as with any airline

My point was that by scheduling the aircraft for continuous service with short connections (as described by MFLetou), JetBlue is setting up the dominoes for cascading delays. Especially when the airline decides to fly rather than cancel, and especially when the airline does not have enough reserve aircraft. Once the weather or an extra fuel stop causes a problem, that problem persists for a LONG time.

Compare this to the situation at Southwest, where all aircraft are idle from roughly midnight to 6 AM. The previous day's problems rarely affect the current day's operations, and there is enough time for maintenance. The nightly shutdown acts as a fire break against cascading delays.

That said, it's rumored that Southwest will begin red-eye flights within a year or two. As long as they are a small percentage of operations, the incidence of cascading delays should be minimal.

Well for that reason I still can't get over the amazing lack of foresight involved in selecting an aircraft that can't complete major routes without a fuel stop a decent portion of the time. Whatevery money they saved by getting a deal from Airbus surely must have been squandered by now by the costs associated with delays from A320s that can't make it across the country.
This topic has been discussed enough already. However, I'll repeat my view and some facts on this one more time:

The A320 is fully capable of flying coast to coast (westbound) without a stop. However, this past winter has brought the strongest jetstreams in history!! When you're flying from the east to the west with a 200+ MPH headwind against you, it makes it kind of tough to go nonstop. Since most of jetBlue's flights are high load factor or sold out, that is more weight and makes it even more difficult. United and America West have experienced this same issue with using their A320-family aircraft on transcon routes. It's not jetBlue's fault that these incredible headwinds existed. This happened this past winter and a little the year before. The environment is changing and when jetBlue purchased the A320, these types of weather patterns simply did not exist. And, the fuel stops you are referring to only took place mainly during one month - February, when the winds were the strongest. There have been no stops whatsoever since and all the eastbound flights make great timing (under 5 hours) due to the tailwinds. jetBlue did get a "deal" from Airbus...but that's because Boeing did not take jetBlue seriously when making an offer. JetBlue's management were al "Boeing Guys" having strong roots from Southwest. That's what business is about - getting the best value and quality for your money. And the A320 is a great airplane - it is fuel efficient, contrary to what you may think. It has a wider cabin for more comfort than the 737 and the technology is just amazing. I still love Boeing and the 737 - but the Airbus product does not have the overall respect it deserves. Fortunately, it is gaining more respect as people around the world notice that they make quality products, just like Boeing. Also, the extra fuel tank which was installed on jetBlue's earliest A320's did not work out and added a great deal of weight to the aircraft - at least 2 (up to 5) of those older ones will be sold and more fleet commonality will exist.

FedEx uses A320's for air freight, which is a lot heavier than passengers and baggage. If the A320 was good enough for FedEx, I doubt that it is deficient for passenger service. FedEx may not fly transcon (SEA-MEM is probably the maximum) but I'll bet they sometimes encounter density altitude (hot, thin air) that limits the amount of fuel they can carry and still take off.

Speaking of which, the most common cause of extra fuel stops is density altitude. On a long flight from a hot and/or high-altitude location, the airline sometimes needs to reduce takeoff weight by removing fuel, baggage, or passengers. Short-haul flights are essentially immune to this problem.

I've been amazed by some of JetBlue's schedules, too. For example, if you want to fly JFK to Aguadilla, Puerto Rico, you land at 3:30 am. What the hell do you do when you get in at 3:30 am? Could you rent a car? What about showing up at a hotel (are you going to pay an extra night for 2 hours of sleep -- and it's probably not even possible to check in at a smaller hotel). Anyone want to make friends or family pick them up at that time? It's just crazy. It's stetches utilization to the point of absurdity.

BTW, CO has a competing flight that leaves EWR at 6 pm and arrives shortly before 11 pm. The fare's usually the same. CO's return flight leaves after 9 am, while JetBlue's is at 6 sharp.

Me thinks JetBlue is probably losing money there.

I've been amazed by some of JetBlue's schedules, too. For example, if you want to fly JFK to Aguadilla, Puerto Rico, you land at 3:30 am. What the hell do you do when you get in at 3:30 am? Could you rent a car? What about showing up at a hotel (are you going to pay an extra night for 2 hours of sleep -- and it's probably not even possible to check in at a smaller hotel). Anyone want to make friends or family pick them up at that time? It's just crazy. It's stetches utilization to the point of absurdity.

Me thinks JetBlue is probably losing money there.

Probably everyone on that flight simply goes home. In a taxi or bus or their own car.

That's right - PR residents are the likely pax on that flight. VFR is a huge part of the NYC-SJU market.

Tourists probably take the daytime flights that coincide with their hotel plans, and residents returning home probably dominate the flights that don't make sense for tourists.

Sure, there's probably some dimwit "look honey, I found a great fare" Clark Griswold on that 3:30am arrival, and he'll have to find something for he and his family to do until they can check in at their hotel, but I doubt this flight features very many of them. ;)

I've been amazed by some of JetBlue's schedules, too. For example, if you want to fly JFK to Aguadilla, Puerto Rico, you land at 3:30 am. What the hell do you do when you get in at 3:30 am? Could you rent a car? What about showing up at a hotel (are you going to pay an extra night for 2 hours of sleep -- and it's probably not even possible to check in at a smaller hotel). Anyone want to make friends or family pick them up at that time? It's just crazy. It's stetches utilization to the point of absurdity.

BTW, CO has a competing flight that leaves EWR at 6 pm and arrives shortly before 11 pm. The fare's usually the same. CO's return flight leaves after 9 am, while JetBlue's is at 6 sharp.

Me thinks JetBlue is probably losing money there.

That is nice for Continental. However, if Jetblue can make money on a flight that arrives at 3:30, more power to them. They have had that flight for a long while, at times increasing to two flights, and they are expanding Aguadilla to Orlando. I have heard that their Puerto Rico flights are some of their most popular flights.

You don't have to fly on Jetblue. That is why there are choices.

The night flights to and from Ponce, San Juan, and Aguadilla are always flown near capacity. There is no way we lose money on those flights. As stated the vast majority of the customers on the early am flights are residents of Puerto Rico.

Sure, there's probably some dimwit "look honey, I found a great fare" Clark Griswold on that 3:30am arrival, and he'll have to find something for he and his family to do until they can check in at their hotel, but I doubt this flight features very many of them. ;)

But CO's flight is good for BOTH tourists and locals. And, heck, what local wants to arrive at 3:30 am even if they can get themselves home by themselves?

With CO's fares exactly the same, there's no way JetBlue's flight could be doing as well as CO's.

OK, it's time to pull out the flight loads:

5/18 - SJU 126
BQN 105
STI 139
PSE 123

5/19 - SJU 116
BQN 104
STI 138
PSE 127

5/20 - SJU 53
BQN 94
STI 130
PSE 95

Flights look to be leaving JFK with about 75% - 80% of the seats full. The weekend flights are always lower but the flights during the week leave with about 90-97% of the seats full. So, Yes, we are going very well on the late evening/early morning flights. The afternoon flights are full of tourists and the evening/morning flights are full of local residents who don't want to deal with the tourists. Flights are making money for us so they will be around to stay.

FedEx uses A320's for air freight, which is a lot heavier than passengers and baggage. If the A320 was good enough for FedEx, I doubt that it is deficient for passenger service. FedEx may not fly transcon (SEA-MEM is probably the maximum) but I'll bet they sometimes encounter density altitude (hot, thin air) that limits the amount of fuel they can carry and still take off.

Speaking of which, the most common cause of extra fuel stops is density altitude. On a long flight from a hot and/or high-altitude location, the airline sometimes needs to reduce takeoff weight by removing fuel, baggage, or passengers. Short-haul flights are essentially immune to this problem.

FDX most certainly does not have A320's, perhaps you meant A300's. A320's are the wrong A/C to go transcon all year, especially from BOS in winter. JB tends to be heavy with all coach and IFE hardware.

If you know you have to stop 10% of the time, can you really advertise and sell a nonstop flight. JetBlue does well with completion, but the delays will ripple for days.

FDX most certainly does not have A320's, perhaps you meant A300's. A320's are the wrong A/C to go transcon all year, especially from BOS in winter. JB tends to be heavy with all coach and IFE hardware.

If you know you have to stop 10% of the time, can you really advertise and sell a nonstop flight. JetBlue does well with completion, but the delays will ripple for days.
I won't disagree with you, but it should be noted that the range on the A-320 is comparable to the 737-800, which is the equivalent capacity a/c largely flown by CO transcon.

So the BQN flights seem to have about a 2/3rds load factor. I'd guess that the average fare is about $120 (there are a lot of $89 tickets available now).

If you do the math (1500 mile trip), the RASM works out to about 5 cents. It costs JBLU about 8 cents to fly a mile.

I would therefore believe that JBLU loses money every day flying to Aguadilla.

In the twelve months prior to the 2nd quarter of 2005, the load factor for the BQN-JFK route was 87.8%. In their recent report on airline performance (not publicly available unfortunately), Lehman Brothers estimate that the PRASM of that route was $7.13, and that the route made a profit of $2.9M.

In the twelve months prior to the 2nd quarter of 2005, the load factor for the BQN-JFK route was 87.8%. In their recent report on airline performance (not publicly available unfortunately), Lehman Brothers estimate that the PRASM of that route was $7.13, and that the route made a profit of $2.9M.

Unless the numbers quoted by the JetBlue fa are a weird aberation, the load factors aren't anything like that today.

Although there is an obvious seasonality to the route. It looks like local traffic has huge peaks and valleys. Perhaps this month is a valley.

Somebody at JetBlue has certainly decided that offering weird flight times doesn't matter. At the same time, somebody at CO has decided it does.

We don't dictate when we fly. The customer dictates when we fly. Unlike CO, we listen to our customers and they tell us that they like the early morning arrival. So guess what?! We listened and keep operating the flight! I just saw the numbers for the last month and as soon as they are released by the company I will post them here, but the route did make quite a nice profit.

We don't dictate when we fly. The customer dictates when we fly. Unlike CO, we listen to our customers and they tell us that they like the early morning arrival. So guess what?! We listened and keep operating the flight! I just saw the numbers for the last month and as soon as they are released by the company I will post them here, but the route did make quite a nice profit.

This really piqued my curiosity. Do you have the means to share any of their letters with us (even paraphrazing would be interesting).

Sure, there's probably some dimwit "look honey, I found a great fare" Clark Griswold on that 3:30am arrival, and he'll have to find something for he and his family to do until they can check in at their hotel, but I doubt this flight features very many of them. ;)

Your post really made me chuckle. I'm Clark Griswold!!

In all seriousness, several years ago I took one of these flights for a new years vacation, it was basically all we could find/afford to get to some fun in the sun. Landed in San Juan about 3am or so. Went to the casino and hung out and had some food until my wife couldn't keep her eyes open any more. Then got in a car and I drove overnight to Rincon. I travel so much it's all the same to me to stay up all night. Got there at sunrise and just plopped down on the beach in front of our resort until they had our room ready, which was 2-3 hours later at 11am or so.

It was a bit miserable at the time but it melted away once we got some sleep and settled into a week on a lovely beach with nothing to do.

I would never do it again, we were in a temporary financial pinch at the time, but it wasn't so bad really and we got a vacation in the carribean for not much money.

So there's one griswold for you. And judging from the other passengers on the flight there were quite a few more vacationers, though they were probably not so cheap as me and just paid for that night and checked in at a San Juan resort at 3am.

Your post really made me chuckle. I'm Clark Griswold!!

In all seriousness, several years ago I took one of these flights for a new years vacation, it was basically all we could find/afford to get to some fun in the sun. Landed in San Juan about 3am or so. Went to the casino and hung out and had some food until my wife couldn't keep her eyes open any more. Then got in a car and I drove overnight to Rincon. I travel so much it's all the same to me to stay up all night. Got there at sunrise and just plopped down on the beach in front of our resort until they had our room ready, which was 2-3 hours later at 11am or so.

It was a bit miserable at the time but it melted away once we got some sleep and settled into a week on a lovely beach with nothing to do.

I would never do it again, we were in a temporary financial pinch at the time, but it wasn't so bad really and we got a vacation in the carribean for not much money.

So there's one griswold for you. And judging from the other passengers on the flight there were quite a few more vacationers, though they were probably not so cheap as me and just paid for that night and checked in at a San Juan resort at 3am.

To me, this sounds like a lousy way to start a vacation. I just don't understand why people would subject themselves to this.

Sorry if this has been discussed (I wasn't successful finding anything with Search), but I am a CO Plat Elite and I was thinking of paying for JetBlue to SJU next spring (vs using oodles of CO miles for a cheap flight). Do they really fly at these strange hours? 3AM departure from SJU? Forgive my JetBlue ignorance. Is this part of how they are trying to save money/utilize their assets to the fullest? How many people want to fly at 3AM?

Thanks.

LOTS!!!!! We also have morning, afternoon, evening, & night flights. What's wrong with REDEYE FLIGHTS?????

Yes they do fly at night and the flights are generally awful. I've flown several times on jetblue red eyes and they have always been completely full with a dozen or so crying infants.

Enjoy!

What's wrong with flying at 3AM??? Ever hear of a REDEYE flight??? We have plenty of those from the West Coast as well. You don't have to take those as we do have plenty of other day flights from SJU starting from early morning thru to the night.

Yeah, ONT, SJC, SLC, DEN, LGB, OAK, BUR, well just about all of the West Coast cities have at least 1 daily redeye to the East Coast. I have heard that the redeye flights are usually full.

OK, it's time to pull out the flight loads:

5/18 - SJU 126
BQN 105
STI 139
PSE 123

5/19 - SJU 116
BQN 104
STI 138
PSE 127

5/20 - SJU 53
BQN 94
STI 130
PSE 95

Flights look to be leaving JFK with about 75% - 80% of the seats full. The weekend flights are always lower but the flights during the week leave with about 90-97% of the seats full. So, Yes, we are going very well on the late evening/early morning flights. The afternoon flights are full of tourists and the evening/morning flights are full of local residents who don't want to deal with the tourists. Flights are making money for us so they will be around to stay.

Hello JetBlueFA,

I just joined the forum, this is my first post. I have a question for you. Can you look up the load factor for the flight from JFK to PSE on 5/27 and from PSE to JFK on 5/31? I was on both fligths (my final destination was SAN) and they looked packed! I have been wondering how the fligts are doing. I really hope they keep PSE. When I travel to PR, that 's the city I go to. The times are kind of a killer for me since I live in SAN so my lay over on my way to PSE @ JFK was nearly 4 hours :-) This was also my first JetBlue experience and I must say it was pretty good. Thanks for reading, sorry for the long post.

On the 27th the flight to PSE was booked to 140. The flight on the 31st was booked to 145, so yes they where pretty packed! We where booked pretty solid for this memorial day and the advanced bookings for the summer are looking extremely well. There was an article in USA Today on the 30th about the heavy travel that is to be expected this summer! So far we are starting to get hit with it. I'm glad I've moved out of JFK and up to BOS because the limited gates and small terminal are going to be packed this summer if the advanced bookings stay as strong as they are right now!

On the 27th the flight to PSE was booked to 140. The flight on the 31st was booked to 145, so yes they where pretty packed! We where booked pretty solid for this memorial day and the advanced bookings for the summer are looking extremely well. There was an article in USA Today on the 30th about the heavy travel that is to be expected this summer! So far we are starting to get hit with it. I'm glad I've moved out of JFK and up to BOS because the limited gates and small terminal are going to be packed this summer if the advanced bookings stay as strong as they are right now!

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad the flights are doing pretty good. I had a good time on both. I just got to SAN about 5 hours ago.