Southwest Rapid Rewards - Southwest May Adopt Assigned Seats on Flights

Haven't seen a thread on this yet. I'm assuming this is news:

Southwest May Adopt Assigned Seats on Flights (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/16/AR2006051601845.html)

Southwest officials stressed that the airline has not decided to adopt assigned seating; it is merely aggressively exploring the possibility after complaints from passengers about the current system.

Haven't seen a thread on this yet. I'm assuming this is news:

Southwest May Adopt Assigned Seats on Flights (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/16/AR2006051601845.html)

An Advanced Search on "assigned" in the title only shows that this is a perennial subject with pretty much the same non-conclusion. Here's the biggest thread: http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367200

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines too much, but it sounds like they are thinking even more seriously about it than they were back in '04.

Many on this board have noted that Southwest has made a continuous stream of decisions over the past few years that make them more and more like a legacy airline (becoming more hub oriented, instituting capacity controls on awards, codesharing, higher fares, placing in the "best elite program" category in the Freddies ;) etc.) so this would not be surprising. Remember, Gary Kelly himself said the only thing that distinguishes Southwest now is the customer service.

As the article notes, assigned seats are particularly important if Southwest wants to grab more of the business travel market. And since they no longer under-price the legacy airlines, they really have no choice but to try to increase the number of higher-fare tickets they sell (which generally go to business travelers.)

I predict we will see assigned seats by January '07 and a real elite program within two years.

I predict we will see assigned seats by January '07

Wanna bet me? I take Paypal. Just PM me the amount and you're on.

Southwest has been studing assigned seating for years and years. I'm confident that the cons seriously outweigh the pros. 25-minute turns would become 40+ minutes. One fewer flight per aircraft per day. Higher prices.

The top priorities of Southwest's customers are price, price, and price. Assigned seating would be interesting if it cost nothing to provide, but that is far from the case.

Southwest is just messing with the minds of its competition, perhaps to distract them from thinking about copying Southwest's open seating.

Wanna bet me? I take Paypal. Just PM me the amount and you're on.

I want in!

25-minute turns would become 40+ minutes. One fewer flight per aircraft per day.
My crystal ball has never worked well, so I don't know if they will or they won't, but two observations:

1. I doubt WN is any more or less worried today than at any time in the past about the legacy carriers, AA, UA, DL, etc. I suspect, however, they have been closely watching, and will continue to closely monitor, customer response to Jet Blue and Air Tran.... and

2. I'm not certain 25 minute turns have to become 40+ minutes if assigned seating were implemented. On a good day between 95-99, Shuttle by United achieved 25 minute turns with assigned seating, including 8 F seats. UA's 737-300's in the Shuttle fleet (some of which are still flying today bearing the Shuttle livery) were configured for 132 passengers (124 in Y, 8 in F) and used a zone boarding process. UA's Shuttle matched WN pricing in markets where they competed, had no change fees, permitted no charge same day standby and provided top tier 1Ks with complimentary upgrades to F. Those last two were the primary reasons I flew UA over WN for eight years.

Is WN seriously looking at assigned seating? If they think it will make them more competitive/profitable, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Didn't someone once say they'd never go back to Denver?

Wanna bet me? I take Paypal. Just PM me the amount and you're on.

Hey, I said "I predict" -- not "I predict with enough confidence to put money on it." :D

A couple interesting quotes:

Since the airline's founding 35 years ago, Southwest executives have been against designated seats, saying it would be costly to print boarding passes. ...

To get a preferred seat, passengers have to arrive at the airport hours before their flight to be among the first group to board. Or they have to remember to check in for their flight via the Internet at least 24 hours before to earn a spot in that early-boarding group.

A couple interesting quotes:

Since the airline's founding 35 years ago, Southwest executives have been against designated seats, saying it would be costly to print boarding passes. ...

To get a preferred seat, passengers have to arrive at the airport hours before their flight to be among the first group to board. Or they have to remember to check in for their flight via the Internet at least 24 hours before to earn a spot in that early-boarding group.

They have to print boarding passes anyway. So no major expense to add a seat number.

Lots of debate on turnaround and time to load planes. But in my opinion, I usually sit at gate 5-10 minutes after boarding is completed anyway - so not as big a deal as it sounds. And I have seen legacies fill a plane in about the same time. It if takes 3 more minutes to board with seat assignments, no big deal. In fact, by being strict on carry-ons, they could shave off more time. The biggest hangup I see is the need to check a bag when overheads are full -- time to look for space and then get bag checked and to the belly.

Why the legacies have 35-45 min layovers is beyond me? When they had food service, etc. - I can see that taking time. But on majority of legacy flights I have been on -- we wait 10 min after last passengers off before boarding. Maybe they need Union folks to come in to clean plane?? I don't think seat assignments is the problem.

I think assigned seating would help business travelers. Have some seats (Exit Rows and toward front) blocked for Full Fare and Freq. Flyers until 24 hr. before departure. But from what I read, WN would need to give some more Perks to get these passengers - such as 1.5 RR credits for those that have 50+ segements in a year.

Maybe WN could charge something for seat assignments. What would the assigned-seat-obsessed be willing to pay? $10 per segment? $20? It would be an interesting survey to take.

Since the non-assigned would get crappier seats on average, offer them a discount or an extra .5 RR credit or something.

I'd sit in a middle seat if I got enough compensation for it, depending on the length of the flight. Everybody wins!

Maybe WN could charge something for seat assignments. What would the assigned-seat-obsessed be willing to pay? $10 per segment? $20? It would be an interesting survey to take.

Since the non-assigned would get crappier seats on average, offer them a discount or an extra .5 RR credit or something.

I'd sit in a middle seat if I got enough compensation for it, depending on the length of the flight. Everybody wins!

Given that more and more of WN's routes compete with legacy carriers, how is charging for a seat assignment going to make sense? If the fares are the same, why pay for a seat assignment on WN when I can get one for free on another airline?

Wanna bet me? I take Paypal. Just PM me the amount and you're on.

25-minute turns would become 40+ minutes.

I'll take a bet that it does NOT take UA 40+ minutes to turn a 737.

Given that more and more of WN's routes compete with legacy carriers, how is charging for a seat assignment going to make sense? If the fares are the same, why pay for a seat assignment on WN when I can get one for free on another airline?

I doubt charging for seat assignments would do much. However, for a 2+ hr flight, I would gladly pay $5-10 for an Exit Aisle or Window in advance. Right now I am not willing to stand in line for 20-30 min. to insure an exit seat.

Otherwise, as I get an aisle or window 95% with my A boarding pass, not a big deal.

Something to keep in mind: My recollection is that Southwest will actually have a surplus of aircraft given the current scheduled deliveries of new aircraft and the service reduction at MSY. So, if they introduce assigned seats and lose a fractional number of segments per aircraft per day as a result, it might not be a big deal.

They have to print boarding passes anyway. So no major expense to add a seat number.

I have no idea what the expense would be to write the computer program, then install it.
However, I am sure it is more than a couple hundred dollars.

Even with assigned seats, there would STILL be a problem since all of our planes would still have center seats :)
There would still be a problem with families not being able to sit together. I have sat at enough gate areas of other airlines to hear the woes of families that were not able to assign their seats together.

It would only shift problems. The business person who books their flight at the last minute would probably no longer have a chance to have a window or aisle seat. Verses before he/she could be savy and print out that "A" boarding document 24 hours ahead and still be able to grab an aisle/window seat.

Be careful what you wish for :D

There would still be a problem with families not being able to sit together.

If a non-preboarding family gets C (and possibly B) boarding cards, they're probably not going to be able to sit together anyway. Unless others will move around to accomodate them, but that works with assigned seats too.

They are looking for the business traveler that does not want to be at the airport three hour ahead of time to line up at the gate two hours before departure to get a good seat. More and more the business traveler is on his laptop doing work, not standing in line.
How they accomplish this will take some thought and a little money.

Wanna bet me? I take Paypal. Just PM me the amount and you're on.

Southwest has been studing assigned seating for years and years. I'm confident that the cons seriously outweigh the pros. 25-minute turns would become 40+ minutes. One fewer flight per aircraft per day. Higher prices.

The top priorities of Southwest's customers are price, price, and price. Assigned seating would be interesting if it cost nothing to provide, but that is far from the case.

Southwest is just messing with the minds of its competition, perhaps to distract them from thinking about copying Southwest's open seating.

It's sad that some still operate under the misguided assumption that LUV is cheaper than the legacies.

...It would only shift problems. The business person who books their flight at the last minute would probably no longer have a chance to have a window or aisle seat. Verses before he/she could be savy and print out that "A" boarding document 24 hours ahead and still be able to grab an aisle/window seat.

Be careful what you wish for :D

Unless you get into complicated schemes of who has preference to choose seats (which would completely take WN over the edge into the legacy model), I completely agree. I'm also struck by 4thplz's earlier comment that no assigned seats streamlines the labor needed at the airport because you don't waste a lot of time with seat selection/changes - and at most smaller airports, the wait for a kiosk these days can be bad enough.

Keith - I know you use FT as a resource, so I'm sure you're watching this thread. I actually favor the status quo, so I'll disclose it up front - but the article sure came across as loaded: absolutely no source who favors the current system, or at least who doesn't find it to be a big priority. Worse yet is the vivid language that plays right into stereotypes - "free for all" (how about "unassigned") and the even worse "with a heard of passengers stampeeding onto the aircraft to find seats" - come on, now; the pushing and shoving around legacy gates can be just as bad. It's a good enough story as-is; demeans you and the Post to sensationalize it the way you did.

They have to print boarding passes anyway. So no major expense to add a seat number.

Exactly. The cost of printing boarding passes stopped being a factor when the plastic boarding passes were put away a few years ago.

And the reason I found it interesting to read that pax need to check in online "at least 24 hours" before departure is that it's not possible -- must be 24 hours or less, can't be more than 24 hours in advance -- and this is true for all airlines in the U.S., not just WN. :rolleyes:

It's 24 hours before the first flight, but it can be more than that before a connecting flight.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/1,70689-1.html
in this thread
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=556560

I have no idea what the expense would be to write the computer program, then install it.


Story in USA Today says $5 mill.

Chicken feed.

I'll take a bet that it does NOT take UA 40+ minutes to turn a 737.

Hell, it takes UA 25 min to turn a CRJ

I heard somewhere (yea, I know rumors) that this was less to do with true seat assignments, and more to do with higher fare tickets & very FF getting "A" seating no matter when they check in.

I heard somewhere (yea, I know rumors) that this was less to do with true seat assignments, and more to do with higher fare tickets & very FF getting "A" seating no matter when they check in.

I've been recommending that full-fare tickets automatically get A boarding passes for many months now. It just makes a lot of sense and would be trivial to implement. (Yes, it will make the A group size harder to predict, but WN has good models of passenger purchasing habits and would not have a hard time keeping the A group at about the size it is now.)

The idea of giving "elites" A boarding passes is very interesting. It's even further off the "egalitarian" mantra, but as I've mentioned before, "egalitarianism" is a side-effect of the things Southwest does to keep costs down, not true a goal of the airline. So if they can increase revenue via either of the techniques you mentioned, I'm sure they'll jump at it.

And both of these techniques don't require assigned seats, so it's win-win.

The top priorities of Southwest's customers are price, price, and price. It's sad that some still operate under the misguided assumption that LUV is cheaper than the legacies.

By "some" you mean customers, correct?

I remember a similar article last year where the headline screamed Southwest was going to start assigning seats, and then when you read the article it said the airline was "considering it", or "investigating it" now they are "seriously investigating it". I guess next year it will be some other adjective. Might be interesting to compare the stories from year to year and see how the quotes are the same, but the only change is the name of the Southwest representative saying it.

I also remember last year Southwest was "considering" adding regional jets to allow them to expand to smaller markets. I'm sure they did consider it, like the hundreds of other things they consider every year. Maybe they are considering the assigned seats on the new regional jets.

It's either a VERY slow news day where they had to dust off the Southwest Airlines might start assigning seats story, or an intern in the Southwest PR office sent out a press release to get the story out to get Southwest's name out in a positive manner. I'm not sure if it's positive, but at least it isn't overtly negative, and the positive spin is they are looking into it because of customer complaints (shows they care about their customers).

I don't believe assigned seats on Southwest are in the immediate future, but who knows, stranger things have happened. I do think adding assigned seats on the 40 minute flight from OKC-DAL would add considerable time to the boarding process, as it does to the American MD80 flights from OKC-DFW, which I've seen them start boarding 45 minutes before the departure time.

Here is a new rumor out of the blue - They will start assigning seats on their new California-Hawaii routes, or their new routes to the Carribbean. These are longer flights, and they will start "testing" the new assigned seat program, as these longer flights will not have the quick turnound as is common on most Southwest runs. There you have it, a new rumor supporting the assigned seats rumor with a rumor of new routes. I'm sure if all these things happened, Southwest would "consider" doing all of this.

This seat selection rumor has some legs to it.

It has been reported on another forum by staff from Westjet Airlines, a Canadian LCC flying 737NGs, that Southwest staff arrived in Calgary 2 weeks ago to get perspectives and study how Westjet assigns seating.

The Westjet model is to assign seating at the airport durng the check-in process. This way customers are still encouraged to either OLCI or check-in early. Westjet also has a slightly different process for PNR with 3 or more people. A computer job runs automatically 72 hours prior to boarding and assigns a seat to these people. It is assumed that families comprise the bulk of people with 3 or more PNRs. The guests still have the ability to to split up at checkin if they so desire, however a family checking in does not have to worry about being split up provided they are all on the same PNR. Also, the "family" PNRs do not get to chose their seats as assignment is automated.

This seat selection rumor has some legs to it.

It has been reported on another forum by staff from Westjet Airlines, a Canadian LCC flying 737NGs, that Southwest staff arrived in Calgary 2 weeks ago to get perspectives and study how Westjet assigns seating.

The Westjet model is to assign seating at the airport durng the check-in process. This way customers are still encouraged to either OLCI or check-in early. Westjet also has a slightly different process for PNR with 3 or more people. A computer job runs automatically 72 hours prior to boarding and assigns a seat to these people. It is assumed that families comprise the bulk of people with 3 or more PNRs. The guests still have the ability to to split up at checkin if they so desire, however a family checking in does not have to worry about being split up provided they are all on the same PNR. Also, the "family" PNRs do not get to chose their seats as assignment is automated.

Very interesting! But how is this better than the current Southwest model? It still forces you to check in right at the 24 hour mark if you want to get a good seat.

Maybe I should have taken that bet with nsx...

This seat selection rumor has some legs to it.

It has been reported on another forum by staff from Westjet Airlines, a Canadian LCC flying 737NGs, that Southwest staff arrived in Calgary 2 weeks ago to get perspectives and study how Westjet assigns seating.

The Westjet model is to assign seating at the airport durng the check-in process. This way customers are still encouraged to either OLCI or check-in early. Westjet also has a slightly different process for PNR with 3 or more people. A computer job runs automatically 72 hours prior to boarding and assigns a seat to these people. It is assumed that families comprise the bulk of people with 3 or more PNRs. The guests still have the ability to to split up at checkin if they so desire, however a family checking in does not have to worry about being split up provided they are all on the same PNR. Also, the "family" PNRs do not get to chose their seats as assignment is automated.

Yuck. I don't want a computer to tell me where to sit. I would rather choose the seat myself, either in advance or on the plane. But don't tell me where to sit as if I'm a schoolboy. :td:

<<The earliest Southwest could switch to assigned seating, used by every other major U.S. carrier, is 2008, Chief Executive Gary Kelly said Wednesday. The system won't be able to handle the tax and customs information required for international travel until the following year, he said.>>>



Ok. Does this statement from Gary Kelly sounds like he is confirming INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS ON SOUTHWEST and the possibility of assigned seating to go with it?

From reading rumors about SW having seat assignments I am all for this.

I can never get why WN cannot add the seat assignment feature to the reservation system. It is so simple just draw seat maps and then as the system reservs seats it will show which seats are taken. It won't cost a penny because it's automated. Once it's setup you replace the Boardiing Groups to Seat Assignments and like American you can board by groups Group A B C etc for the seat assignments. Even Frontier has seat assignmnets.

They also need to have people to deal with at-the-gate seat assignments and call centers for seat assignments (not everyone buys online you know) plus the costs of maintaining the system online....

Hmmm... international flights.... Mexico and/or Canada I presume? Or are they merging with ATA who flies to Mexico?

Canadian destinations would be very nice if tickets are relatively cheap.

...Ok. Does this statement from Gary Kelly sounds like he is confirming INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS ON SOUTHWEST and the possibility of assigned seating to go with it?

Of course we are going to go INTERNATIONAL someday :D

Assigned seats?? I don't know, that goes against the simple ways.

However, as ctuttle said, "but who knows, stranger things have happened."

(I would have never in a million years guessed Dulles :)
Although, it all makes sense.)

Other good things are in store first :)

<<The earliest Southwest could switch to assigned seating, used by every other major U.S. carrier, is 2008, Chief Executive Gary Kelly said Wednesday. The system won't be able to handle the tax and customs information required for international travel until the following year, he said.>>>

For those who are curious, that quote came from this article

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060517/southwest_seating.html?.v=2

Clearly it was a good thing I did not take nsx's bet. :D

On a more serious note, it also says that Southwest has never surveyed customers to see whether they do or don't like "open seating" vs. assigned seats!

Maybe WN could charge something for seat assignments. What would the assigned-seat-obsessed be willing to pay? $10 per segment? $20?

Air Canada charges $15 CAD for advanced seat selection at the lower fare classes. (Free on the higher fare economy tickets). This option is very popular with people taking the cheapest fare route.

I would say that WN could charge $15 US and most business people would take the offer.

One issue with charge, some companies will not pay the charge so an employee is forced to pay up personally if they want seat selection.

Hmmm... international flights.... Mexico and/or Canada I presume? Or are they merging with ATA who flies to Mexico?

Canadian destinations would be very nice if tickets are relatively cheap.

Westjet's steller Q1 (12% operating margins and NO fuel hedge) might have Southwest looking at Mexico. Westjet transfers 25% flying capacity to sun destinations in the winter months, this takes the bite out of the traditionally weaker Q1. WN could easily flood the Mexico and Carribean markets.

This is too funny. I avoided Southwest for the longest time because I hated not having a seat assignment. I finally accepted it, and was quite a Southwest flyer for a while, but then I left as soon as they announced that they were destroying the Rapid Rewards program by switching to restricted awards.

By changing to restricted awards, it's clear that Southwest is targeting their business at leisure travelers (who are more able to use award tickets as they can be flexible with their travel plans), and away from the business traveler. Perhaps they're hoping that assigned seats would bring back some of the business travelers that they lost due to the changes in the Rapid Rewards program? I wish them luck, but it won't bring me back.

I noted in the WN in-flight magazine that they were hiring Oracle programmers. Could they be converting their legacy reservations system to an Oracle system to have increased flexibility in adding fields such as seat #? $5m seems cheap for this type of conversion.

It will be interesting to see HOW WN assigns seats? First person to buy a ticket on a flight gets choice of seats on the airplane? On UA, elite status gets you up in the front half of the plane, in E+, WN has no elite status, so everybody's equal. Or, maybe they will assign the seats when you check-in 24 hours before the flight? Or, higher fares get to sit up front? Could be very interesting.

I would think assigned seats actually could speed up the boarding process. Board from the back of the airplane and you won't have the "A" group taking up rows 1-10, delaying people from getting to the back of the bus. Or, board Windows-Middles-Aisles. I'll bet someone at Southwest will do a study. Maybe they will make 20 minute turn-arounds!

Perhaps they're hoping that assigned seats would bring back some of the business travelers

Right. The WP article that the OP cited pretty much directly said that was the motivation for considering assigned seats.

On a more serious note, it also says that Southwest has never surveyed customers to see whether they do or don't like "open seating" vs. assigned seats!

They need to survey not only customers, but potential business travelers who do not fly WN - if that is their target.

I think some priority seats, such as Exit and some of the front, would be available only to Very Freq. Flyers (50+ seg. a year) and full fare customers. Then fill these in with those that check in at airport. Computer could adjust available "premium seats" daily starting 7 days out based on predicted fight passenger mix and loads. And maybe, until less than 10 seats available, hold one or two until 1 hr. prior to departure for last minute full fare. Legacies do similar things.

Still could have Boarding Pass Letters -- but have Priority and those in rear 1/4 of plane board as A, the middle part B, and finally front C.

Most family travel reservations are done well in advance. And if people doi not select seats, computere could "put groups together" autmatically if seats are not selected - the way legacies do. Legacies have a problem when changing aircraft, but WN does not have too many different types, so should be less of a problem.

The Westjet model is to assign seating at the airport durng the check-in process. This way customers are still encouraged to either OLCI or check-in early. Westjet also has a slightly different process for PNR with 3 or more people. A computer job runs automatically 72 hours prior to boarding and assigns a seat to these people.

Makes sense to wait until 24 hours to protect last-minute, full-fare business travelers, and to pre-block families together, since their biggest concern will be sitting together and they may be less likely to check in at the 24-hour window.

The trick for WN, however, would be making sure all family members are on the same PNR to begin with. A family of 4 may be comprised of 1 RR ticket, 1 Companion Pass ticket, 1 Ding internet-only ticket, and 1 Youth telephone-only ticket, which, under the current reservation system, would be 4 different PNRs, one of which isn't even eligible for OLCI. Maybe a "Link Reservations" button on the website or something.

Makes sense to wait until 24 hours to protect last-minute, full-fare business travelers, and to pre-block families together, since their biggest concern will be sitting together and they may be less likely to check in at the 24-hour window.

The trick for WN, however, would be making sure all family members are on the same PNR to begin with. A family of 4 may be comprised of 1 RR ticket, 1 Companion Pass ticket, 1 Ding internet-only ticket, and 1 Youth telephone-only ticket, which, under the current reservation system, would be 4 different PNRs, one of which isn't even eligible for OLCI. Maybe a "Link Reservations" button on the website or something.

Sounds like my family! I would LUV to see this feature. ^

I have no idea what the expense would be to write the computer program, then install it.
However, I am sure it is more than a couple hundred dollars.

Be careful what you wish for :D

WN uses SABRE, originally developed by their best friend and neighborly airline, American Airlines. Thus, the implementation of seats assignments is "just" an upgrade to WN's SABRE functionality. That being said, the upgrade always takes a year or two!!

I noted in the WN in-flight magazine that they were hiring Oracle programmers. Could they be converting their legacy reservations system to an Oracle system to have increased flexibility in adding fields such as seat #? $5m seems cheap for this type of conversion.

It will be interesting to see HOW WN assigns seats? First person to buy a ticket on a flight gets choice of seats on the airplane? On UA, elite status gets you up in the front half of the plane, in E+, WN has no elite status, so everybody's equal. Or, maybe they will assign the seats when you check-in 24 hours before the flight? Or, higher fares get to sit up front? Could be very interesting.

I would think assigned seats actually could speed up the boarding process. Board from the back of the airplane and you won't have the "A" group taking up rows 1-10, delaying people from getting to the back of the bus. Or, board Windows-Middles-Aisles. I'll bet someone at Southwest will do a study. Maybe they will make 20 minute turn-arounds!

ORACLE would be enhancing their internal data warehouse, not the res system.

FROM THE TRAVEL INSIDER newsletter: (sort of recap of what's been said)

It seems that while the dinosaurs are tripping over themselves to become no-frills carriers, the no-frills carriers are contrarily taking on attributes of the legacy full service carriers they are displacing.

A case in point is Southwest's announcement on Tuesday that it was spending $5 million to upgrade its reservation system to enable Southwest to handle seat preassignments. Although Southwest has long denied any plans to introduce pre-assigned seating, and indeed, when announcing this $5 million expenditure, added there would be no change at least through the end of 2007, some commentators (myself included) have been predicting this as an essential and inevitable move on Southwest's part.

The lack of assigned seating is the chief complaint levied by Southwest's passengers and potential passengers. Southwest, for its part, maintains that its open seating method is an essential part of boarding its planes as quickly as possible.

Many on this board have noted that Southwest has made a continuous stream of decisions over the past few years that make them more and more like a legacy airline (becoming more hub oriented, instituting capacity controls on awards, codesharing, higher fares, placing in the "best elite program" category in the Freddies ;) etc.) so this would not be surprising. Remember, Gary Kelly himself said the only thing that distinguishes Southwest now is the customer service.

This makes sense, I mean WN is one of the few airlines to have almost always been in the black and have a stock price above $4 per share. By becoming more like the legacies they too can participate in crashing stock prices and bankruptcy filings ;) . I still say if it aint broke.....

There was a study floating around recently that found indeed, the unassigned seating method did appear to result in the fastest boarding process, because people tended to self-organize to get on the plane. I think the next-fastest was "reverse pyramid," where one boards from the outside seats and back first, moving in and up, and then back-to-front.

So for the corporation, unassigned is the best (at least from the load time perspective), since it results in the shortest boarding time and increases aircraft utilization. One might suggest this is also best for the individual passenger for the same reason--more flight options, less time spent waiting--but that takes quite a small view of what might be important to the passenger.

I do wonder whether Southwest may have some tweaks, such as adopting assigned seats only on certain flights, or certain parts of the aircraft, or something that may reduce any boarding time impacts...

-Hayden

I suspect that assigned seats will be to their advantage. People like me who would prefer the current system of unassigned seats will not leave WN if they change to assigned seats and many others will be willing to try the airline with assigned seats.

I suspect that assigned seats will be to their advantage. People like me who would prefer the current system of unassigned seats will not leave WN if they change to assigned seats and many others will be willing to try the airline with assigned seats.

Exactly.

How much shorter does unassigned seats take.\? My guess, at best, 3 mintues. So if a plane flys 6 flights a day, that is 18 minutes. AND most of the time people are in their seats at least a few minutes before departure time and the plane just sits there for a while before the doors are closed. And then a few more minutes before push back. So, overall, I think the boarding process is really not the issue for turnaround time.

I think going with the assigned seat will be a great feature. I have flown several times with Southwest. I have always be fortunate to get an "A" boarding pass. Someone mentioned that all the "A"'s take up rows 1-10. From what I have seen, that is not true. I have seen all 45 passengers scattered throughout the aircraft thus delaying departure.

On a recent trip from MCO to PVD, we were delayed by 15 mintues because a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids) couldn't get seats together. They threw the kid out of an exit row seat, he threatened his mother that he would leave the plane, etc. Not a pretty picture. Having assigned seats would avoid situations like this.

They would just have to change the A-B-C lines to rows 45-30, 29-15 and 14 -1, or something like that. I do not think this would delay departure.

How much shorter does unassigned seats take.\? My guess, at best, 3 mintues. So if a plane flys 6 flights a day, that is 18 minutes. AND most of the time people are in their seats at least a few minutes before departure time and the plane just sits there for a while before the doors are closed. And then a few more minutes before push back. So, overall, I think the boarding process is really not the issue for turnaround time.

You're missing the point. Passengers with assigned seats tend to get to the gate at the last minute. A couple of dozen passengers getting to the gate at last possible minute (10 minutes before the flight) can delay the push back by 5-10 minutes. Multiple 10 minutes by 6 flights and that same plane will only be flying 5 flights instead of 6.

SW might just cancel seat assignments 15 or even 20 minutes before the flight if they want to avoid that situation.

You're missing the point. Passengers with assigned seats tend to get to the gate at the last minute. A couple of dozen passengers getting to the gate at last possible minute (10 minutes before the flight) can delay the push back by 5-10 minutes. Multiple 10 minutes by 6 flights and that same plane will only be flying 5 flights instead of 6.

SW might just cancel seat assignments 15 or even 20 minutes before the flight if they want to avoid that situation.
Yes, assigned seating would likely take it from the "three minute rule" (made famous by Airline on A&E) to having to get to the gate WAY in advance like at all the other airlines.

So I disagree that they wouldn't lose some passengers. Those passengers who are using Southwest more because they can get to the airport later than for any other airline (because of the "three minute rule", because of the unassigned seating) would stop having that PREFERENCE for Southwest. It's not that they would leave in droves, it's that they would stop thinking of it as "I like this airline because I can get to the airport later". Those passengers wouldn't necessarily leave outright, but might fly fewer trips (because of less exclusivity to Southwest than they might have now, if said exclusivity is for this reason).

It's 10 days before travel. WN is priced on par with the competition. If I book a legacy there's often no decent seats available. If I book with WN I get an "A" card by checking in on-line 24 hrs in advance.

WN benefits from the current system by being able to offer a superior seating opportunity to the late minute, higher fare passenger. Many of these passengers pay several times the average fare (of others), are savy travelers, and book WN purposely with WN's late booking seating advantage in mind.

It's 10 days before travel. WN is priced on par with the competition. If I book a legacy there's often no decent seats available. If I book with WN I get an "A" card by checking in on-line 24 hrs in advance.

WN benefits from the current system by being able to offer a superior seating opportunity to the late minute, higher fare passenger. Many of these passengers pay several times the average fare (of others), are savy travelers, and book WN purposely with WN's late booking seating advantage in mind.

I would argue that the same people who are buying at the last-minute, and paying full fare are often the people who, for a variety of reasons, may not be able to check in at the 24 hour mark, and thus secure an A bp. Basically, I'm thinking of the business traveler who flies 100+ segments a year and spends the rest of the time tied up in meetings and such. This is the type of person that simply may not be able to be in front of a computer to check in at the 24 hour window. But, this person is also going to buy mostly unrestricted, full fare tickets. If they can't get an assigned seat, I think it makes the whole WN proposition very unattractive. I want to be able to show up at the airport 45 minutes before my flight, check-in at the kiosk, and know that the seat I reserved at time of ticketing is still my seat, even though I checked in at the last minute.

It's 10 days before travel. WN is priced on par with the competition. If I book a legacy there's often no decent seats available. If I book with WN I get an "A" card by checking in on-line 24 hrs in advance.

WN benefits from the current system by being able to offer a superior seating opportunity to the late minute, higher fare passenger. Many of these passengers pay several times the average fare (of others), are savy travelers, and book WN purposely with WN's late booking seating advantage in mind.

The aspect of the WN seating policy to which you allude is really only useful to the infrequent traveler who happens to buy tickets close to day of departure. Frequent travelers are "elites" on the legacy airlines and, as a result, have rows pre-blocked for them until day of departure.

I disagree that lots of people, where there is assigned seating, arrive at the gate less than 10 min. before departure. On the legacies I have flown, only 2-3 arrive in the 4-5 minutes before departure -- and some may have been late connections or delay in getting to airport. And as everyone else is sitting, they can board quickly. And many airlines close off boarding 5 min prior to departure -- so not a real issue. I would be willing to bet that if you stand by a gate (when on a layover) on any airline, much fewer than 2 dozen board (more like 2-4) after the last passenger in the normal line steps on the plane.

In fact, with SWA, with some tight connections (espec. at airports with many distant concourses, like PHX) there is usually someone that gets on within 5 min of departure.

Anyone that tries to cut time close enough to get to gate 3 min before departure is crazy. In most airports, the security line can fluxuate by 10 minutes - that and parking, shuttle bus, traffic, etc. is the reason most are at gate 30+ min or so before departure. So assigned seats or not, very few try to cut it that close.

As to full fare pax buying a last minute ticket - I propose all full fares get A boading passes. And if assigned seating, "hold" enough seats (aisles/windows) until 30 min before boarding so they can get a good seat. SWA can predict buying patterns and, I think, usually keep some good seats until prior to boarding open for these high fare pax. As LPCJr states, the likelyhood of someone buying a seat 1-4 hrs. in advance and getting an A (or even a B) BP is not good. So they do not get good seats on WN now anyway, unless a light load. Ten days before travel, sure they can get an A. And if they are frequent travelers (with status), they can usually get a good seat on legacies also as they hold some for Elites.

I disagree that lots of people, where there is assigned seating, arrive at the gate less than 10 min. before departure.

Me too. United has been routinely closing the door 10 minutes or more before departure on the flights I've been taking...this quickly trains people to show up well before departure! So there are other ways to create the "herd boarding mentality" besides the bullpen-boarding procedure that WN currently uses.

maybe they could do a partial deploy.... pre-assign seating in advance for an upcharge at the check-out process. they the day of travel, no more seat changes online and the flight opens for assigned seats first

if they don't pay the upcharge swa will board people in a, b, c just like they do now. that gives them a chance to make more $$ from people that unassigned seating doesn't appeal to (or another way to put it is charge those who like unassigned seating less $$).

BUT.. If i'm looking at a last minute flight, and all there are is middle seats, I might NOT travel on that flight. Why would someone pay a $309 business walk up fare a day before the flight and settle for a middle seat at the back of the aircraft, which could be occupied by two large, smelly, or talkative passengers on either side.

SWA is unique. they are profitable. They have unassigned seating. That's not a bad thing!! Sure, people get a C once in a while but they KNOW that they could have gotten an A. They had an equal chance to an A just by checking in online earier. As it is right now, the very last C can't argue that the very first A is more elite than them, travels more often, etc.

An extra charge for an assigned seat? That would rub a lot of customers the wrong way, given that other airlines don't charge.

As others have posted, the increase in turn times might be minimal after all.

Staffing at the gates and at the baggage counters would probably need to double to handle the extra workload, or those rapidly-moving baggage lines would become almost as slow as they are at other airlines.

One thing's for sure: Any major change will draw a ton of griping here. :p

My opinion as both a customer and a stockholder (and usually those two opinions are opposite!): It ain't broke. Don't fix it. Dance with the one who brung ya, your current customer.

Oh, and thanks so much everybody for keeping this debate so friendly!

I guess a lot of my concerns were crystalized in a quote from the Post's Sunday travel section, in a blurb about WN coming out on top on the American Customer Satisfaction index:

Southwest has "a winning formula," said Claes Fornell, director of the university center that compiles the survey. "They don't overpromise. They take you where you are going and they get you there on time."

To the extent that lack of assigned seats is keeping away business WN otherwise could have, the issue I see is whether you can pull off assigned seats to attract those people in a way that doesn't start to cause your fliers to become dissatisfied with what they're getting (or to start expecting things you're either unwilling or unable to deliver). Seat surcharges or elite-driven seating perks just seem way too risky. In fact, I find it hard to see how you could implement anything assigned without starting to dilute the core message that Fornell identifies.

If you could conince the business pax who are not flying WN that getting in the A group is as good as an assigned seat, then maybe a better route would be to implement some of the A-group mods (automatic for Y fare, for example) that have been thrown out.

Of all the suggestions, an automatic A if you buy a Y fare is the easiest to implement and the least likely to have downsides. Southwest would still get all the advantages of not having assigned seats. Furthermore, it would drive additional pax to Southwest and would encourage discount passengers to "buy up" to Y beyond the current Y perk of same-day standby.

It truly boggles my mind that they have not already done this. Yes, there is the chance of undershoot or overshoot in estimating the number of Y pax on each flight, but the financial impact of such errors would be negligible compared to the impact of undershoot or overshoot in estimating total pax for oversell purposes (which they already do).

It truly boggles my mind that they have not already done this.

I virtually never pay full fare, but I still think Y=A would be a good idea. More Y fares sold would mean lower fares for everyone else.

I would argue that the same people who are buying at the last-minute, and paying full fare are often the people who, for a variety of reasons, may not be able to check in at the 24 hour mark, and thus secure an A bp. Basically, I'm thinking of the business traveler who flies 100+ segments a year and spends the rest of the time tied up in meetings and such. This is the type of person that simply may not be able to be in front of a computer to check in at the 24 hour window.
Except that there's a website that will do that for you (for a fee, but said business traveler would probably find it worth fee if they're unlikely to be able to do it live). I don't remember the URL offhand (since I'm not such a business traveler and DON'T find it worth the cost personally :) ), but I've seen discussions of it in this forum before. (It's very analogous to www.esnipe.com which lets you pay to have it place bids on eBay just seconds before the auction closes, on the theory that many bidders won't bid higher unless they see that someone has outbid them and then they will, so you're likely to get a better price if you can hold off on bidding until it's too late for anyone to have time to counterbid against you.)

Southwest has fired its lawyerpult (http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2006052442720.gif) at all providers of this service. The one that remains is operated by, you guessed it, a lawyer or the spouse of a lawyer IIRC.

Southwest has fired its lawyerpult (http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2006052442720.gif) at all providers of this service. The one that remains is operated by, you guessed it, a lawyer or the spouse of a lawyer IIRC.

I think there's more to the story. Yes, the aspect you mentioned is probably key. But that site has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Wired Magazine (both online and print editions), television, etc. Southwest would have a lot of explaining to do to the loyal customers of the site if they shut it down. It's the only site that Southwest didn't shut down before it got a lot of traction, and as a result I think it's here to stay -- lawyers or no lawyers.

(Of course, I'm also the person who predicted Southwest would introduce assigned seats by January 2007, just minutes before an article appeared saying their computer systems wouldn't be able to handle assigned seats before 2008. ;) So my theories are not always right.)

When I read that because SWA has a winning (profitable) fomula, no need to change (use assigned seating). If that is the case, they should not have any meals, still have SWABIZ, use the numbers for boarding, etc. Change is not always bad, even if you are already successful.

Also, it is many things that make SWA profitable. Unassigned seating may or may not be part of the reason.

Also the polls are not always right. Asking those that fly SWA about this vs. those that MIGHT fly SWA if they had assigned seating would likely get different results. I think very freq. flyers (incl. those that do not use SWA) mostly (not all) prefer assigned seats.

Fees for seats is not a good idea. Many would not like to see it. But giving a full fare an A? No one would know which of A are Full fare and whcih are just early birds. I wonder how many (%) fly on full fare?? If if is about 10 on ave. - then just cut back on the 37 (not sure if that is exact number) A issued on line to, say, 30 and give all full fares an A. At most, would have 40-45 A, not a real problem. Considering 5 - 15 people preboard (my estimate), the A BPs are a little restricted on choice of seats anyway. And, of course, through pax can greatly incr. the choice for A BPS also.

Enough...... but good and friendly discussion -- as nsx says.

IIRC Southwest actually did not make a profit last quarter (or was it year? I can't remember) if you remove the financial benefit of the fuel hedges. So they know they need to shake things up there over the next few years as the fuel hedges run out. I expect lots of chages. Hopefully we will see changes that only minimally impact customers (e.g. A BP's for Y pax) as opposed to the changes we have seen so far (nuking RR, raising fares to legacy airline levels, etc.) that have a negative impact on customers.

A lot of their "winning formula" is the fuel hedges... They do need to make life better for the higher-fare pax if they're going to survive.

First let me say that I both like and respect SWA as an airline and a company. My opinion of SWA is very favorable. I like their reputation for the way they treat their employees, and I like the fact that they are profitable. Most of all, I like the fact that they offer a choice vs. the legacies.

That said, I hate flying SWA. I probably did more than 150K BIS miles in 2005, and only about 700 of those were on SWA. The main reasons I don't consider flying SWA are, in order:

#1: Lack of assigned seating
#2: Lack of free/low-cost standby

Goodness knows, I can't speak for anyone else, and I can't explain it to anyone who doesn't already understand, but I deplore the whole uncertainty of the cattle-car, musical-chairs, hurry-up-and-wait seating on SWA. I don't like it, and I will pay more to avoid it. I prefer to select my seat when I book my flight, and being able to reserve a good exit-row seat with lots of leg room can feel almost as good as having a seat in first class.

Even so, it puzzles me my why a profitable airline with happy customers and a winning formula is changing to become more like the unprofitable legacies with their challenged customer service. While I think continual improvement is always necessary, I guess I'm in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line of thinking. I hope SWA knows what it is doing.

The main reasons I don't consider flying SWA are, in order:

#1: Lack of assigned seating
#2: Lack of free/low-cost standby

Goodness knows, I can't speak for anyone else, and I can't explain it to anyone who doesn't already understand, but I deplore the whole uncertainty of the cattle-car, musical-chairs, hurry-up-and-wait seating on SWA. I don't like it, and I will pay more to avoid it. I prefer to select my seat when I book my flight, and being able to reserve a good exit-row seat with lots of leg room can feel almost as good as having a seat in first class.


I fly SWA a lot, instead of the legacies, mainly due to the Comp. Pass - and also cheaper fares (much of the time). When I am uncertain of my flights, I use them because I can cancel/change easily.

That said, I dislike the seating situation and the fact that as a very freq flyer I get only I benefit over the 4-5 flights per year flyer is the Companion Pass. And that (for next year) will only be due to the 3x Mileage Run and the credits I got for being SWABIZ until they dropped 2x for us. That said, I think the very freq. flyers (VFF) need something for their loyality.

Why do I dislike the seating? I do get an A BP usually. But I do not like to wait in like (standing or sitting on the floor) for 20 min or longer at the front of the A line just to get an Exit Row or an aisle near front. If I had an assigned seat and only a small carry on, I could wait (and read or work on laptop) until the line in the jetway gets down to 2-3 people, board, get my seat, stow my small backpack, and leave. And if VFFs had some of the better assigned seats "blocked" for them, I would have an Exit Row or at least an aisle/window near the front where I could get out in 2-3 min vs. the 10 min in the rear.

Yes, I do think many business people want an assigned seat. And many would like some perks for loyalty. A huge number of VFFs fly as much as possible with one airline for the perks. That is why there are a lot of top tier Elites. When WN had the 2x or 3x miles, lots of Awards and a CP were within range of most who flew about 35 RT per year. Good perks. But that is gone now. Assigned seats would be a plus for the VFF - but not sure that is enough to get or retain business travelers. Still need more.

From a current WSJ article on Boeing's 787:

In addition, research conducted by Boeing, airlines and others shows that the biggest comfort factor is whether the seat next to you is occupied. Studies show airlines would have to give four extra inches of legroom just to reach the same comfort scores created by an empty middle seat.

Open seating allows you, if you choose, to maximize your probability of having an empty seat next to you. If the seat pitch is adequate (and Southwest's seat pitch certainly qualifies), my highest priority is having an empty middle seat. If the flight has fewer than 100 pax and you choose a row 2/3 or the way back you have a 90%+ probability of having that empty middle seat. Assigned seating would drop that probability to 50% or less. That's not a win.

This is a specific example of the more general observation I have posted here before: Open seating allows more of the people who really care about it to get the kind of seat they want.

IMHO, assigned seating will destroy more customer value than it creates.

IMHO, assigned seating will destroy more customer value than it creates.

I agree 100%. I flew at least 10 times in the past month, and every time I got the seat that I wanted. Front few rows, middle or isle. Some of the flights were booked only a few hours before hand, and one I got a B on. If I'm going to sit and read a newspaper or use a laptop it doesn't matter to me if I do it sitting under the A/B line or in an airport chair. both are about the same comfort level!

Now what SWA may start telling me is that I have an assigned seat, meaning no control over if the seat next to me remains empty on a less than full flight.

In my opinion, SWA has spent millions doing this study, and I have a funny feeling that they will manipulate the study to get the numbers and stats showing whatever choice they make is the best one.

What kind of company spends $4 million to say "nothing was wrong, it was better how we have it now". I doubt that will happen, instead they'll say "we've invested over $4 million in order to bring you the changes that our NON customers, and the second half of our "C" boarding group have requested over and over again."

From a current WSJ article on Boeing's 787:

In addition, research conducted by Boeing, airlines and others shows that the biggest comfort factor is whether the seat next to you is occupied. Studies show airlines would have to give four extra inches of legroom just to reach the same comfort scores created by an empty middle seat.

Open seating allows you, if you choose, to maximize your probability of having an empty seat next to you. If the seat pitch is adequate (and Southwest's seat pitch certainly qualifies), my highest priority is having an empty middle seat. If the flight has fewer than 100 pax and you choose a row 2/3 or the way back you have a 90%+ probability of having that empty middle seat. Assigned seating would drop that probability to 50% or less. That's not a win.

This is a specific example of the more general observation I have posted here before: Open seating allows more of the people who really care about it to get the kind of seat they want.

IMHO, assigned seating will destroy more customer value than it creates.

An interesting point, but what you're describing is as much due to the fact that Southwest has the lowest load factors of any airline in the industry, as it is the seating policy. If they didn't have such low load factors, you wouldn't be able to play this game.

Thought of a potential problem with assigned seating. (Yes, I know, I avocate the system - but do look at all angles).

SWA would need to change their "cancel at last minute and get fund into Ticketless Funds for future use". Why? People would make double reservations on long flights for two, reserve middle and aisle, and then have a "no show" for the middle seat --- giving them elbow room! Or else charge a fee for cancellations less than 24 hr. ahead. So maybe not a good idea.

SWA would need to change their "cancel at last minute and get fund into Ticketless Funds for future use". Why? People would make double reservations on long flights for two, reserve middle and aisle, and then have a "no show" for the middle seat --- giving them elbow room! Or else charge a fee for cancellations less than 24 hr. ahead. So maybe not a good idea.

You can already do this on legacy airlines by buying a fully-refundable ticket, seating the ghost traveler(s) next to you, and refuding at the last minute. Either there is very little interest in perpetrating the kind of fraud you describe, or the legacies already have a solution for it. Either way, I don't think what you're describing is a problem.

You can already do this on legacy airlines by buying a fully-refundable ticket, seating the ghost traveler(s) next to you, and refuding at the last minute. Either there is very little interest in perpetrating the kind of fraud you describe, or the legacies already have a solution for it. Either way, I don't think what you're describing is a problem.

True, very true. Probably this would happen only once in 5,000 tickets, so not a concern. But with WN, one could do this with cheap tickets as well.

Having someone sit next to you while you are in aisle is not a big deal. (But being in the middle on a 3-4 hr flight is.) And, of course, agents can move people around to empty seats after boarding, except POS. Although not sure anyone would move to an open middle (if someone bought a ghost seat next to them).

I agree with geek and "remove" my concern.

If the flight has fewer than 100 pax and you choose a row 2/3 or the way back you have a 90%+ probability of having that empty middle seat. Assigned seating would drop that probability to 50% or less. That's not a win.


I do not understand this.

Agree with the first part; don't see how assigned seating drops the probability so much. Could you elaborate?

Agree with the first part; don't see how assigned seating drops the probability so much. Could you elaborate?

With assigned seating, your probability of having an empty middle seat is the same as anyone else's. Assuming all empty seats are middles, the number of empty middles is 137 minus the passenger count.

Since there are 45 rows with middle seats, the probability that a given row has an empty middle is (137-pax count)/45. According to this formula, your blindly assigned aisle or window seat has a 90% chance of an empty middle at 97 passengers, 50% at 115.

With open seating, selecting a seat just aft of the exit row gives me 80% to 90% chance up to 125 or so in my experience. That's a big improvement.

What about Elite seating? Well, it's a two-edged sword. The airline will block the middle seat for you (assigning it last), increasing your probability of an empty middle. But United's Economy Plus middles will likely fill up before the standard (Economy Minus) middles, decreasing your chances. Of course, if you get upgraded to F, congratulations!

Anyway, the Elite option aside, I maintain that open seating satisfies a greater percentage of the people who give a you-know-what about the kind of seat or what kind of seatmate they get.

I think that I disagree with you NSX ( not sure because I don't totally follow your logic ). The majority of passengers choose their own seats online. The ones that don't, choose their own seats from the kiosks at the airport. Almost no seats are randomly assigned by the airline. So the seats will fill just as with open seating, only it will occur before people get on the plane. If what you say is correct about open seating, then the seats will fill in the same mannor with assigned seats. That said, I still like open seating. It allows me to book fairly close to the time of the flight and still get an A or at worse a B.

The majority of passengers choose their own seats online. The ones that don't, choose their own seats from the kiosks at the airport. Almost no seats are randomly assigned by the airline.

Yes you have a point. The last people to check in have only middles to choose from. Do they choose any row with equal probability? No, they probably choose the back rows last. So if you choose a window or aisle in the back you can get a similar result to what I get on Southwest by choosing a row just aft of the exit rows. I'd rather be there than in the back with people clogging the aisle waiting for the lav.

The majority of passengers choose their own seats online. The ones that don't, choose their own seats from the kiosks at the airport. Almost no seats are randomly assigned by the airline. So the seats will fill just as with open seating, only it will occur before people get on the plane. If what you say is correct about open seating, then the seats will fill in the same mannor with assigned seats.

Exactly. It is Southwest's industry-leading low load factors (not sarcastic there--low load factors are great for customers, as it means more empty seats) that allow nsx to sit next to an empty seat, moreso than the no-assigned-seats policy.

Of course, on Southwest you can play the "pretend you have a communicable disease/are insane/put you carryon on the seat next to you/etc." game (see the dozens of threads in this forum for more details!) to increase the chances no one will sit next to you. On assigned-seat airlines you have to play the game a little differently (check the seat map on the website periodically and keep moving yourself into a row where there is no one next to you).

From a current WSJ article on Boeing's 787:

In addition, research conducted by Boeing, airlines and others shows that the biggest comfort factor is whether the seat next to you is occupied. Studies show airlines would have to give four extra inches of legroom just to reach the same comfort scores created by an empty middle seat.

Open seating allows you, if you choose, to maximize your probability of having an empty seat next to you. If the seat pitch is adequate (and Southwest's seat pitch certainly qualifies), my highest priority is having an empty middle seat. If the flight has fewer than 100 pax and you choose a row 2/3 or the way back you have a 90%+ probability of having that empty middle seat. Assigned seating would drop that probability to 50% or less. That's not a win.

This is a specific example of the more general observation I have posted here before: Open seating allows more of the people who really care about it to get the kind of seat they want.

IMHO, assigned seating will destroy more customer value than it creates.

Absolutely, Positively and Certainly. The main reason I prefer WN because in most situations, I actually have a higher probability of getting the empty middle seat than with the legacies.

This is borne out by actual experience. I'd say I get an empty middle about 80% of the time in WN....even on flights 89-90 percent full. Reverse is true with the "big boys". (On WN, I check in online, get into the A group, then head for the rear of the plane. Generally, two or three rows ahead of the last row You don't have to be at the head of the "A" line to do this....everyone else grabs a seat in the front of the cabin.)

=(On WN, I check in online, get into the A group, then head for the rear of the plane. Generally, two or three rows ahead of the last row You don't have to be at the head of the "A" line to do this....everyone else grabs a seat in the front of the cabin.)

Seems like conflicting information here. One says head to rear 2-3 rows from rear, and geek says a row or two behing the exit rows? Which is better?

I have found most flights 90-95% full, some 100% full. In these cases, only a few empty middle seats.

I always ask load factor at airport - but many will not say specifically. Often I get the answer we "are almost full, but have a few seats left". Is there anyway to find out more precisely?

I always ask load factor at airport - but many will not say specifically. Often I get the answer we "are almost full, but have a few seats left". Is there anyway to find out more precisely?

I ask the FA when boarding. I always get a precise number.

Rows 13-15 are the ones to pick. Some people wil take the first seat they see, even a middle. Others will walk all the way to the back hoping for a non-middle, then turn back and take the first reasonable-looking middle. Rows 13-15 fill last. Trust me.

Rows 13-15 are the ones to pick. Some people wil take the first seat they see, even a middle. Others will walk all the way to the back hoping for a non-middle, then turn back and take the first reasonable-looking middle. Rows 13-15 fill last. Trust me.

This is my experience as well. Although it can be a tossup being here or the last few rows. It all depends on whether or not the FA comes on over the loudspeaker and says "There are only middle seats left so grab the first one you see! In that case, sometimes the rows right behind the exit fill first. If they don't say that, people almost ALWAYS walk past the exit towards the back of the plane hoping they will find a window/aisle in the very back.....

Seems like conflicting information here. One says head to rear 2-3 rows from rear, and geek says a row or two behing the exit rows? Which is better?

That wasn't me... I have no specific advice on this issue.

I still think that most of the effect people are seeing is because of Southwest's low load factors. But, the majority seems to disagree with me, so what can I say.

I can honestly say that at least 50% of the time the seat next to mine is one of the last 5 to be taken (and a few times the seat next to mine was the ONLY open seat on the entire place, I always look after the door has been closed to see if I won the game and so I know whether to pat myself on the back or not for a game well played ;) ). Picking the right seat and then playing the game properly will virtually ensure you have an empty seat next to you on flights that are up to ~90-95% full.

Look at it this way, if the flight is 90% full, there will be 14 empty seats out of 137. There are 26 rows on the airplane. Leaving out the exit row, 14 out of the 51 middle seats will be empty (27%). The front half is almost a shoe-in to be full in the middle seats. That basically doubles your odds in the back. Play the "How Do I Get An Empty Middle Seat" game and the odds get even better.

From a current WSJ article on Boeing's 787:

In addition, research conducted by Boeing, airlines and others shows that the biggest comfort factor is whether the seat next to you is occupied. Studies show airlines would have to give four extra inches of legroom just to reach the same comfort scores created by an empty middle seat.

Open seating allows you, if you choose, to maximize your probability of having an empty seat next to you. If the seat pitch is adequate (and Southwest's seat pitch certainly qualifies), my highest priority is having an empty middle seat. If the flight has fewer than 100 pax and you choose a row 2/3 or the way back you have a 90%+ probability of having that empty middle seat. Assigned seating would drop that probability to 50% or less. That's not a win.

This is a specific example of the more general observation I have posted here before: Open seating allows more of the people who really care about it to get the kind of seat they want.

IMHO, assigned seating will destroy more customer value than it creates.

But WN won't let load factors stay at 70% for long, so those empty seats are short-lived luxury...

But WN won't let load factors stay at 70% for long, so those empty seats are short-lived luxury...

Actually they're one of the only two (other is CO) US airlines that are expanding domestic capacity this year. So I think they will stay low for the foreseeable future. They'd be pulling down capacity if they were concerned about their load factor.

I always ask load factor at airport - but many will not say specifically. Often I get the answer we "are almost full, but have a few seats left". Is there anyway to find out more precisely?

PLX4 has stated here that as a gate agent, she/he will not disclose the exact load factor.

On empty seats on nearly full flights - agree that just behind exit rows are most likely to remain empty (people either resign themselves to a middle and get one up front so at least they can exit early, or keep going to the back in the hopes that they're flying on the world's first articulated plane and there's an extra cabin back behind the rear lav). If it's a short flight and the odds are against getting an empty middle, I usually just default to picking a row where I'll have early drink service.

On loads, it depends on who you're asking - some come right out and give a number, while others are more general. If you get a general response ('mostly full') then a specific follow-up, like "so are you saying 100 of the 137 seats are taken?" can get you the info you need.

Not clear to me that if you assign seats it has to be done in a way that allows each and every person to pick a specific seat at any time (although presumably, you'd be able to modify it once you got to the airport). Southwest would be looking to do this in the most streamlined and efficient way possible, which presumably would be to limit the time spent dealing with customers choosing seats unless it can be done in a cost-effective manner (such as online or at the kiosk). Even then, you'd probably have a percentage of passengers who would still let the seat get assigned to them without any direct input.

Thanks for the "empty middle seat" opinions. I will try this on my mileage run on 30/31. That is if the plane is leaving on time and I have at least 30 minutes connection time. If shorter, I will take the closest seat to the front so I can exit quickly.

deleted - wrong thread

Actually they're one of the only two (other is CO) US airlines that are expanding domestic capacity this year. So I think they will stay low for the foreseeable future. They'd be pulling down capacity if they were concerned about their load factor.

I suspect as their fuel cost advantage evaporates this (load factor) will loom larger in their planning.

I'm surprised loads are as light as people say - if that is the case why all the hand-wringing over cap controlled awards on normal days?

[QUOTE=Picking the right seat and then playing the game properly will virtually ensure you have an empty seat next to you on flights that are up to ~90-95% full.[/QUOTE]

So what we've established here is that there's more than one way to successfully "play the game".

My point is basically that it is frequently possible to get an empty seat next to yours on WN...even on nearly full flights. I can only speak from my own experience, but the fact is, I get that result most of the time in WN....some of the time with the assigned seat airlines. Additionally, I've been using WN since 1981, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've had to settle for a middle seat. And, yes, I've been in the "C" group more than a few times down through the years!

My point is basically that it is frequently possible to get an empty seat next to yours on WN...even on nearly full flights. I can only speak from my own experience, but the fact is, I get that result most of the time in WN....some of the time with the assigned seat airlines. Additionally, I've been using WN since 1981, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've had to settle for a middle seat. And, yes, I've been in the "C" group more than a few times down through the years!

All I can say is you must fly routes that are not too full. I would say 35% of my flights have less than 4 empty seats - often completely full. With only 4 empty seats, it is not too likely one ends up with empty middle seat regardless -- unless you are very bold and act very sick or crazy. Or do some of the "naughty" games like pour some water (unnoticed) on middle seat when you are sliding into your seat.

I do, however, understand the strategy and will test it out on future flights.

I do, however, understand the strategy and will test it out on future flights.

:eek: The "pour some water on the empty middle seat" strategy?!??!?! :eek:

I hope I don't try to sit next to you......;)

:eek: The "pour some water on the empty middle seat" strategy?!??!?! :eek:

I hope I don't try to sit next to you......;)


I would never do this.... but I would not be surprised that this or something similar would happen by some. I do know I have been on flights were a drink was spilled and the seat was soaked. At some staions they have replacement coverings, but not too often. So they took the seat out of service for the next segment.

But gg, if it were you next to me,,,, I would even offer you some free drink coupons for all the help you are on this board. ^

I'm surprised loads are as light as people say - if that is the case why all the hand-wringing over cap controlled awards on normal days?

My guess is that there's a huge variance in load factors depending on day of week, time of day, and route. People want to use their awards on convenient days and times and on popular routes. But those are also the flights where the most revenue seats are sold, hence the least award availability.

So you're right that Southwest's low load factors might mean more total seats are available for awards compared to legacy airlines, but it doesn't mean more total seats are available on desirable days at deisrable times on desirable routes compared to legacy airlines.

(And of course there's no "double mileage for non-capacity-controlled award" option on Southwest like there is on the legacies, but that's another topic.)

All I can say is you must fly routes that are not too full[/B].

Nope! A few have light loads, but most of 'em are pretty full. On flights where there are only 2-3 empty seats, SOMEBODY is going to be sitting next to an empty. Why not maximize the chances of it being you?

And no, I don't do any of the "pretending to be sick stuff, spilling stuff, act like a slob stuff". Nor do I "park" anything in the empty seat. At most, I may sit there with a newspaper widely unfolded while reading it.

And hey, if you wind up without that empty next to you...so what! Its a little less comfortable, but there are worse things that could happen to you.
Sure, I like the extra comfort. I try to "go for it", but I'm not obsessed with it.

I would never do this.... but I would not be surprised that this or something similar would happen by some. I do know I have been on flights were a drink was spilled and the seat was soaked. At some staions they have replacement coverings, but not too often. So they took the seat out of service for the next segment.

But gg, if it were you next to me,,,, I would even offer you some free drink coupons for all the help you are on this board. ^

Out of curiosity, Exactly what was spilled on the seat anyway?

ALL of SWA airplane seats have been replaced by leather. I thought leather was the reason the seat can just be wiped down dry without taking a delay of replacing the cushion.

Out of curiosity, Exactly what was spilled on the seat anyway?

ALL of SWA airplane seats have been replaced by leather. I thought leather was the reason the seat can just be wiped down dry without taking a delay of replacing the cushion.

My reference was on another airline with "cloth" seats. In fact I have seen this a few times over the many years I have been flying. Usually a drink get spilled. Maybe now they have material which do not absorb liquids on most airlines - which makes sense.

Thanks for the "empty middle seat" opinions. I will try this on my mileage run on 30/31. That is if the plane is leaving on time and I have at least 30 minutes connection time. If shorter, I will take the closest seat to the front so I can exit quickly.

One more strategy that I haven't seen mentioned here. When boarding flights that are near-full, and boarding at the end of the A group, look for the "right" person sitting in the aisle, and take the window. The "right" person is someone that takes up a lot of room in the aisle seat, so that C passengers may decide to find another row. Ideally, 6'4" and 275 pounds.

I'm average size, but I find that folks do observe the aisle seat person when deciding when to take the middle, so the amount of room I take up in the window seat doesn't matter. Sometimes, this strategy backfires when someone takes the middle seat and gets "pushed" into my space by the large passenger in the window. Usually, however, it works pretty well.

And here I thought flying on Southwest was "simple" compared to the legacy airlines?

Hopefully this thread has put that misconception to rest!

Here at FT our slogan is: "Taking the simple and making it complex, just the way you like it." :-:

I am a big fan of Southwest Airlines, 99% of my business and pleasure travel is with Southwest. I even earned a companion pass which is expiring at the end of June 2006.
I am a former airline employee of 19years, I have experienced and seen how seat assignments work; it's not a perfect system. Regarding Southwest, I don't like the idea of someone getting a seat assignment when they make a reservation(1-3months in advance) because those of us that book last minute get whats left. I think Southwest should stick with their 24hour check in rule and only then can you get a seat assignment. This levels the playing field in my opinion.

Hope you are listening Southwest.

David

Cardstock and thermal ink costs will go up for WN, as there will be less incentive to print a BP on a personal computer, as opposed to just getting the more convenient BP at the airport. Customer's paper and ink costs will go down however. :p

delete

I've been reading threads on other airlines and I think that WN should stick with the way things are now as far as seating goes. I don't see any advantage to the airline of having assigned seats.

I agree with you on this one, but it looks like Southwest is committed to changing its policy. I have been digging through PR's and it's clear that they're headed in the direction of assigned seats. How they'll actually implement the plan remains to be seen, but it does appear as if it's coming.

They better be ready for the influx of idiots (like myself) that will be

a) calling up the reservations line asking to change seats when a better seat opens

and/or

b) creating a big line at the gate podium trying to switch seats

They better be ready for the influx of idiots (like myself) that will be

a) calling up the reservations line asking to change seats when a better seat opens

and/or

b) creating a big line at the gate podium trying to switch seats

Southwest is a very innovative company. I have a feeling that whatever assigned seating scheme they come up with will prevent or mitigate these issues one way or another. (For example, perhaps only letting you change seats online, not via phone or in person.)

Southwest is a very innovative company. I have a feeling that whatever assigned seating scheme they come up with will prevent or mitigate these issues one way or another. (For example, perhaps only letting you change seats online, not via phone or in person.)


I think a high (I do not remember the % they stated) number of people book on line and use computers for most transactions. And, if like me, pick the best seat at the time and then go back to the seat selection map where they can SEE what is available and make changes. So probably not too many calls. Yes, there will be some additional gate agent time, but unless a cancellation or disruption - most gate agents do not have too much to do before the incoming flight arrives.

The big question I have is: If WN goes to seat selection, will they "block" out some priority seats for the full fare and/or the very freq. flyers? If the intent is to gain business passengers, I think this would be required.

Simply because Southwest is investigating this or developing software that could do this does not mean it will happen. The software addition is probably part of a bigger upgrade that is being done at the same time.

My bet, in the end, is that the higher paying fare classes will automatically get A. If Southwest is after the business traveler, then this is what needs to happen to retain him. Web check in is all fine and dandy for the flight from home - but on the return, its a hassle - and this is where us business travelers often get screwed on check in. Plus, last minute changes, etc.

As we boarded our flight last night (MCO-BWI), the FA made an announcement that, "Southwest still has open seating, at least until the end of the year."

My bet, in the end, is that the higher paying fare classes will automatically get A. If Southwest is after the business traveler, then this is what needs to happen to retain him. Web check in is all fine and dandy for the flight from home - but on the return, its a hassle - and this is where us business travelers often get screwed on check in. Plus, last minute changes, etc.

This would be the logical thing, but like ContinentalFan said, if you read what Kelly has said over the years, the move to assigned seats is becoming more and more definitive. I think it's definitely going to happen....eventually.

This would be the logical thing, but like ContinentalFan said, if you read what Kelly has said over the years, the move to assigned seats is becoming more and more definitive. I think it's definitely going to happen....eventually.

Sounds like Assigned seating is coming.

If not, WN could have a seperate letter - X - which would be boarded directly after the Pre-Boards and use that line once pre-boards were on. My guess is less than 10 on most flights are Full Fare. And, it would be nice, to incl. all those with 50+ segs in the past year that class also, regardless of fare paid (probably less than 5 per flight, knowing some Full Fares will be the same people).

Southwest is a very innovative company. I have a feeling that whatever assigned seating scheme they come up with will prevent or mitigate these issues one way or another. (For example, perhaps only letting you change seats online, not via phone or in person.)

I definitely agree. I think people in Dallas are mulling over this issue carefully and trying to come up with a creative way to fill the plane quickly and minimize the number of interactions with CS. Whatever LUV decides to do, they will beta test it, I am sure. So, I will stay tuned to FT to see what's going on at different airports.

This would be the logical thing, but like ContinentalFan said, if you read what Kelly has said over the years, the move to assigned seats is becoming more and more definitive. I think it's definitely going to happen....eventually.

Sometimes Southwest keeps the competitors and the market guessing. SWA doesn't want to look too much like its competitors. I still doubt that it will happen anytime soon.

My guess is less than 10 on most flights are Full Fare.

Actually that number is way higher. A lot of business fliers on SWA pay full fare. I do around 90% of the time I fly for my company. The exact number has been mentioned in the LUV quarterly conference calls and I don't have the information with me right now, but off the top of my head I wanna say the % of full fare fliers on SWA is 25-35%, which would mean there are around 40 full fare fliers on a packed flight..........

Hope you are listening Southwest.

David

The best way to have them listen to your concern is to write them.

Southwest Airlines
Customer Relations/Rapid Rewards
P.O. Box 36647 - 1CR
Dallas, Texas 75235-1647

We don't know what type of group division there would be with assigned seating; see here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=564023) a discussion of what NW is trying, basically assigned seating with a cattle call for all but pre-boards and elites.

WN going to assigned seating must be true. Story in today's Chicago Tribune quotes Gerald Arpey as saying it will happen.

(For anyone Unaware....Arpey is the head honcho at AA)

WN going to assigned seating must be true. Story in today's Chicago Tribune quotes Gerald Arpey as saying it will happen.

(For anyone Unaware....Arpey is the head honcho at AA)

Yea, and how does he know?

Actually that number is way higher. A lot of business fliers on SWA pay full fare. I do around 90% of the time I fly for my company. The exact number has been mentioned in the LUV quarterly conference calls and I don't have the information with me right now, but off the top of my head I wanna say the % of full fare fliers on SWA is 25-35%, which would mean there are around 40 full fare fliers on a packed flight..........

Wow, much higher than I thought. I suppose because of last minute flights?? If I recall, only full fares once within the 7 day window. Otherwise, why would they not just book at lower fare and, if they need to change to a different flight, pay the difference. Or if need to cancel, use Ticketless Funds later.

Wow, much higher than I thought. I suppose because of last minute flights?? If I recall, only full fares once within the 7 day window. Otherwise, why would they not just book at lower fare and, if they need to change to a different flight, pay the difference. Or if need to cancel, use Ticketless Funds later.

One possibility is that many businesses require the purchase of fully-refundable tickets, and may not know/care about messing around with Ticketless funds.

jxg9

One possibility is that many businesses require the purchase of fully-refundable tickets, and may not know/care about messing around with Ticketless funds.

There are also some flights on particular days where I have only seen full-fare for sale, no matter how far out I look. For example, intra-California flights on Friday late afternoon/early evening and Sunday late afternoon/early evening. Now, I never really looked more than a couple of months out, but you get the idea.

(This is actually the root of my current beef with Southwest -- they forced me to buy all of my tickets from their most expensive fare bucket, but changed their frequent flyer program so that I could not redeem based on availability in that bucket.)

I dont think it will matter much if they change to pre assigned seats. I think time wise will be the same as far as boarding.

Every airlines has it's PROs and cons..

One thing I don't like about not assigning seats is.. if you are traveling with a partner and you get the "C" passes.... you get on the plane and all the isle and window seats are taken.. thus you cannot sit with your travel partner.

So I guess assigned seating would be fine for me!