MilesBuzz! - Benefits of the Hilton Double Dip

While offering general advice to one our latest newbies, CaptainB, I suggested that Hilton's Double Dip should definitely be considered. (And that's without even considering their current Double Double Dip, giving both Double HHonors points and Double airline miles.)
Someone else suggested that it was not such a good deal, so I decided to do the math. Here's my calculation.
Comparing a person who spends $150 for a hotel room for a night at Hilton vs. Marriott (my other favorite), at a hotel in connection with a flight, gives the following calculation:
At Marriott, the person will earn 1500 points ($150 x 10 pts./dollar) plus an assumed 25% airline bonus, leads to 1875 Marriott Reward points.
Since Marriott Rewards gives you a free coach airline ticket for 60,000 points, the $150 stay earns you 3.125% of the free airline ticket. (I am using airline tickets as the approximator, since Hilton gives both points and airline miles).
The same person spending $150 at Hilton earns a base of 1500 points, plus a 250 bonus for a partner airline, for a total of 1750 points.
HOWEVER, the Hilton stay also earns 500 airline FF miles, toward a free ticket.
The 500 airline miles equals 2% of a free coach ticket (at 25,000 miles).
Hilton requires 75,000 miles for a coach ticket (although only 40,000 miles for a free companion ticket, an award which Marriott doesn't offer, but we'll use the 75,000 reward just to be fair). The 1750 points earned equals 2.3% of a free coach ticket.
Thus, combining the 2% earned through airline mileage, with the 2.3% earned with Hilton points, yields 4.3% of an airline ticket award for the $150 dollar stay at Hilton, vs. only 3.125% of the airline ticket award for the same $150 dollar stay at Marriott.
The prosecution rests. Djlawman.

P.S.--am posting this here on Buzz, since it would otherwise have to be posted on both Hilton and Marriott.

You were referring to my response, although I did not flat out say that Hilton is not a good deal. It is hard to compare two programs. In your analysis you assumed a one day stay - my typical stays are longer, and a 5 day stay is typical. With a 5 day stay, the 500 airline miles and the 250 point airline bonus get divided by 5 which dilutes the Hilton payout.

Here's my analysis for a 5 day stay:
Hilton = 7500 points + 1875 gold bonus + 250 air bonus = 12.83% of a ticket, add 500 miles or 2% of a ticket = 14.83% of a ticket

Marriott = 7500 points + 1875 air bonus + 750 gold bonus = 16.875% of a ticket

My general feeling is that the hotels can give you better value with their own programs rather than with external programs, thus my bias.

[This message has been edited by pgupta011 (edited 01-17-99).]

When trying to compare an award of hotel points and ff miles I guess it makes sense to do it like that, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who uses hotel miles for hotel stays and not airline tickets.

How would your calculations look compared to a two weekend nights stay award at the hotels? I'm going to use the five day figures posted by pgupta ...

Hilton ~ 9625 hotel points + 1500 hotel points (miles converted back to Hilton points) = 11125 points = 31.79% of two weekend night stay (35,000 point variety)

Marriott ~ 10125 points = 28.93% of two weekend night stay (35,000 point variety)

Let's also check my personal favorite, Hyatt ...

Hyatt ~ 3750 points + 563 Platinum bonus (Hyatt Platinum is equivalent to Gold in Hilton and Marriott I believe ...) + 300 airline bonus = 4613 points = 30.75% of two weekend night stay (15,000 point variety)

Looks like Hilton edges Hyatt slightly, but that's using Hilton's double dip, isn't it? If we throw in Hyatt's Nights after Nights, it's not even close!

Hyatt, with Nights after Nights ~ 30.75% of two weekend night stay PLUS one free weekend night (and only one more night later will earn a second weekend night).

I'll declare my allegiance before I start, I prefer Hilton, and growing to appreciate Marriott. There is no rational explanation for this, I think it is just historic.

However, if this thread has convinced me of one thing it is that any earings differentials between Hilton/Marriott/Hyatt are negligable.

The important factor for me is benefits at Elite level. I have no experience of the Elite levels of the Hyatt scheme so would be really interested in a comparison.

Ok, my experience based on Elite level benefits is that Hilton Internationals offer a superior level of benefit to Marriott's (upgrades etc). However, I find US Marriott's offer a higher level of benefit that US Hilton's.

To make that tangiable, I have always been upgraded to a suite/junior-suite at Hilton Internationals' but have found it hit and miss in the US. The reverse applies to Marriott's.

This may in part be because I am only Black in Marriott Rewards and Diamond in Hilton? Again, I would be interested in hearing other views.

I could easily be persuaded that my experience is not typical!
MF

Good replies, folks. I agree that, overall, the differences in the programs must be reviewed to see how it fits into your particular mode of flying. Unlike pgupta, I usually am only in one of the hotels for a night or two. I agree with Beckles that the Hyatt Night after Night promotion is a great one.
When I tried to sign up for the Hilton Gold challenge recently, they told me it was no longer being run, but said they were signing me up for a "make 2 stays, get a free night" promotion. Perhaps this is their response to the Night after Nights promotion, since Hilton does claim in their program materials that they will make it easier to earn a free night than any other comparable program. (however, I have not seen this advertised anywhere. call Hilton Honors customer service and inquire.)Moreover, with their current Double Double Dip (good only when using an Amex card), the miles are really piling up.
Looks like everyone has a clear view as to what they think maximizes their benefits the best, and that's what it is all about, right?

That's interesting that Hilton claims they will make it easier to earn a free night than any other program. If they *really* wanted to do that they'd just match the Nights after Nights and not offer a "2 stays, one free night offer."

I've had two stays at Hyatt in the past couple of months (eight days total, total spending, about $1,000) and that's roughly enough for one free night using points, plus three free nights from Nights after Nights. I'd like to see Hilton or Marriott match that!

Merry Flyer ~ I've only been a Hyatt Platinum member for a few months (which is only 10 stays or 20 nights), and the upgrade potential is not that great, but I think once you reach Diamond level (25 stays or 50 nights) it's much better.

Yes, Hyatt night after night promotion is nice, but by Murphy's law is never offered when I have an opportunity to be staying at Hyatt. Marriott has a great promotion for double points for the first four months you sign up, and recently they have a 15,000 point promotion. And as mentioned, the Hilton double miles and points promotion is really great.

Marriott also has some great rewards with Fairfield Inns (7 nights for 30,000 points) which I used several times, and got my Freddie vote for the best redemption. Hilton also has some great redemptions (3 nights for 35,000 points) at some nice properties - I have not had the chance to use these yet.

My experience is similar to Merry Flyer's. I am also Diamond VIP with Hilton and Black Marquis with the Marriott. Hilton International/Conrad properties are superior to Marriott properties. I also get upgraded to a better room about 90% of the time in Hilton International/Conrad properties.

In the US, most Marriott properties are superior to Hilton properties. I get room upgrades more frequently with the Marriott (even though I am only a black level member, which is their second highest tier). In fact, in some Hilton properties, they don't even know what a Diamond VIP is. Some of them think Diamond is lower than Silver because they don't see a lot of them. Only after explaining what Diamond VIP is do I usually get a room upgrade. Anyone else with the same experience?

I am NOT Black Marquis with Marriott and Diamond with Hilton, but I am GOld with Hilton and a high level with Marriott. It's hard for me to find which program is better than the other (It took me twice as long to cast votes for teh HOtel section of the Freddies than the airlines.)

Mostly my points ends up going to free hotel nights with HIlton and Marriott, although I have twice rolled HIlton points just to have enough for a free airline ticket (that was before I realized the benefits of earning elite and thus went for upgraded coach tickets.)

My latest Hilton conversion will be for the Hilton Hawaiian Village stay for the Party in Paradise, boosted by rolling over thousands of AMEX Membership Rewards points. The conversion rate is higher for a limited time.

You all probably know this but if you need the details e-mail me. If I get enough e-mails I'll be happy to post the info under HILTON. CATMAN

[This message has been edited by Catman (edited 01-17-99).]

Catman, even though the conversion rate AMEX->HHonors is higher for a limited time, you will do better by transfering AMEX->Continental/Delta->HHonors.

Thanks for the suggestion Pgupta. Now it's time to do some renewed math.

I will be happy if I can get half of the stay or MORE free. If I can pay for a night or two and get another HHonors stay towards Silver or even Gold renewal that would be an added plus! CATMAN

Reading these posts reminded me of the "HHonours Richest Reward Guarantee" (1998 Handbook - page 73).

Has anyone every tried this and 'won'?

If Hilton honour this guarantee, I would guess it makes this whole discussion redundant and we should all be registered with Hilton..... as if!
MF

You will have to re-do the point calculations for Hilton as they have raised the free airline ticket redemption level from 75,000 points to 85,000 points (an increase of about 15%). This may lower some of the calculations below those of Marriott.

Also, not sure about Beckles calculations. A two-night weekend stay at a Premium level Hilton property costs 65,000 points (35,000 is for one night). At Marriott the highest property level (Choice, including Renaissance and MGM) is only 55,000 points for a two-night weekend stay (30,000 for one night). This puts Marriott (18.4%) ahead of Hilton (17.1%). In addition, as a number of people have mentioned before, Marriott points have much more utility - you can use them at Courtyards and Fairfield Inns at substantially lower redemption levels. I have contacted Hilton twice about lowering award levels at the Hilton Garden Inn properties (similar to Courtyards) with no response. They definetly cost too much (award points that is). Finally, you only need compare the blackout dates for the two programs. Looks like every Hilton property is blacked out at one time or another, and many are impossible to get during peak season. Marriott has far, far fewer restrictions.

MileKing ~ I was specifically using the lowest redemption level for Hilton, Marriott, and Hyatt's just to be consistent and because I knew two of the three off the top of my head.

Merry ~ I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif, but unless Hilton matches Nights after Nights, that guarantee just isn't holding up ... maybe you should write them and say that ... or maybe I will and I'll see what their response is. As I said previously, I've had two stays at Hyatts in the past two months (8 nights ~ $1,000 total spending), and I've earned enough GP points for one free night, plus Nights after Nights gets me three more free nights!

ONE more thing that I *don't* like about the Double Dip, you have to pay an "eligible rate", which typically does not include the rates I end up staying at!

[This message has been edited by Beckles (edited 01-18-99).]

I just checked out Hilton's "HHonors Richest Reward Guarantee" at http://www.hilton.com/hhonors/terms.html#richest and rule #2 of the offer is:

2. <snip> Nor does it apply to any special offers, promotions, or discounts.

So this only guarantees their standard earning rates and redemption levels will be the richest. Still be interesting to see what they'd say if one of you Hilton Gold or Diamond level members asked them to match the Hyatt offer ...

Beckles: I see your point.

But 'Nights after Nights' is also "determined by the total number of nights at Hyatt you stay paying an ELIGABLE rate (sic)".

'Nights after Nights' would be more appealing to me if the reward nights were not weekend nights. But that is a personal preference.
MF

A few corrections about Hyatt:
Merry - if you stay, I believe, 15 or more nights during Nights-After-Nights, you enter the unadvertised "premium" levels. You can earn up to 5 nights at ANY hotel or resort, for ANY day of the week. The "eligible" rate really means any rate that is not a free night or a deeply discounted employee rate. The recent $59 holiday rates do count, as well as corporate rates.

Here is how you REALLY pile em on at Hyatt (from a recent stay):
5 nights @ $150 = 3750
Diamond bonus = 1125
Airline bonus = 300
St. Louis bonus = 1000 ("featured" hotel bonus-see your Hyatt statements)
Paid with gift cert = 4250 ($750 room, $100 tax)
Buy Gift Cert w/Diners=1700 (I think it's a $1-2pt conversion)
--------------------------
Total score =12125 + N-A-N bonus

I didn't rent a car that week, which would be worth 300 more. The Hyatt gift certificate deal, running until the end of Feb, gives 5 points for every dollar.

Looks like a sextuple dip to me!

Tino ~ I believe that the "unadvertised" premium levels are only available to folks who are already in the elite levels of the Gold Passport, so unless you're already Platinum or Diamond, I don't believe you are eligible for the "unadvertised" premium levels of the promotion ...

Merry ~ As Tino pointed out, "eligible rate" for Hyatt includes any rate you or I are likely to ever use, including the $49 holiday rate I got at Hyatt on Printers' Row in Chicago over Thanksgiving and the $100 rate I got at Hyatt Islandia last week.

Tino: The reason I mention the "eligible" miles is that I stayed at the Hyatt Regency Hill Country Resort in November. Having not received any miles/nights I contacted Hyatt last week who e-mailed me saying my rate was "not eligible".

The rate I stayed at was the normal 'corporate' rate that was quoted by Hyatt reservations. It was discounted but not heavily.

I have just challanged Hyatt about this and they confirm that the quoted 'corporate' rate in not eligible.

MF


[This message has been edited by Merry (edited 01-18-99).]

Tino: You forgot the 100 points for registering for N-A-N and 500 bonus points per stay with promotion code: N5BABON.
MF

Merry ~ Wow ... I stand corrected.

I have always received points, even for extremely discounted Holiday Rates (such as the $49/night I mentioned earlier at Hyatt on Printers' Row, which is usually well above $100).

Merry ~ I'm extremely surprised you did not get your points. As I said before I've always gotten points, even on deeply discounted stays.

Also, even if you don't get points for the room, you should still get points for any other charges you put on your room, such as phone or food.

All I got was 50 BA Airmiles no points.

But I did get an invitation to join the Hyatt 'Dine & Stay' programme the other day - know anything about that one?

Glad I started this thread. If nothing else, it certainly shows that the FF's on this board know there stuff and have done their math.

Merry ~ No, I can't say as I have ever heard that of that program/promotion ... care to share some details?

Beckles: 100 points for registering for 'Nights-after-Nights' on the Hyatt Web Site.

N5BABON is a BA promo, 500 points per stay. I will try and locate the details.
MF

Merry, what type of corporate rate did you pay? Was it a rate that your company negotiated with Hyatt, or a convention/group rate? Hyatt considers some of these 'Ineligible', but if you shop around (as Beckles obviously does and as I have done many times too) and ask for promotional rates or holiday specials, you might end up paying less and still get the Gold Passport benefits.

Actually, Hilton had matched Hyatt's Night after Night Promotion in 1997. They had promotion where every 2 stays = 1 free weekend night. I took advantage back then and checked in and out of Hiltons and Marriotts for 3 weeks and got 4 free nights (which expired but they converted them to HHonors points instead).

neyoisles ~ As I said previously, that may have been an answer to Hyatt's promotion, but certainly not matching it. After two stays at Hyatt I've earned three free nights, not one!

The other side of that is if you only have two one night stays at Hyatt however, you only get a 50% off certificate.

I believe that Hilton is "matching" Hyatt's offer with that 2stays get one free weekend night certif. again. See my post regarding the Hilton Gold Challenge on the Hilton forum. When I tried to register for the Hilton Gold challenge, they said it was over, but said they could register me for this stay twice get a free night promotion. However, it doesn't look like they are widely advertisingit--only giving it to you if you ask, since I haven't seen it on their website, or in any of their monthly mailings (but I don't get every month, since I don't have points every month.)