MilesBuzz! - Would the Gov't really tell us if the crash WAS an attack?

First and foremost my thoughts and prayers are for the victims of this terrible crash.
AND - Isn't there a LOT to lose for a LOT of people if the AA crash was some kind of sabotage? If it was an attack (sabotage type thing) it would certainly ground a lot more people and cause more economic damage then if it turns out to be a malfunction of a part that has already had some warnings...

and if it was malfunction then only mostly AA/GE etc would be on the hook - and the gov't wouldn;t necessarily be on the hook to help the victims directly..

it's true I don;t trust the current administration but I am curious what others think...

[This message has been edited by squeakr (edited 11-13-2001).]

I fail to see why the government would even attempt to withhold the information. And, what an impossible thing to keep secret in the US, although it could happen in some other nations!

------------------
Middle_Seat

I'm as suspicious as anyone about government (especially this one) but the idea that the real cause of the AA crash would be withheld is just not plugging into reality.

Look at it this way: There are enough competing interests to assure that no cause other than the real one will be to blame. As you mention, if it's not a deliberate act, then AA and/or GE and/or others were in error. They're not going to accept that blame and responsibility unless it's true.

I doubt a flight that lasted 107 seconds before major trouble was anything but a major mechanical or pilot error.

There are literally hundreds of people investigating this event. Let's let them do their job-I'm sure we'll have a good idea what happened in a few days.

squeakr - I share your contempt for the current administration. I think it is possible, although unlikely, that they would conceal this.It would help keep people flying. However, exposing it as terrorism/sabotage (if it was) would further unite the country and the international coalition. I don't think the administration would squander that opportunity.

Middle_Seat - I think you greatly under estimate our govt's ability to hide/conceal information

Look out for the black helicopters, they're everywhere....
Do you guys honestly think that they can keep all of the NTSB, FBI, AA, and GE people investigating this to lie about the cause? We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of people here, and like Mountain Trader said the GE and AA people have a strong financial as well as ethical disincentive to lie about it.
Get a grip guys!

cg you are right on the money.

and for the rest of you and your 'contempt' for the current administration, let us not forget whose administration sold out national security secrets for illegal campaign contributions. buddhist temple, iced tea... ring any bells?

unlike the political hacks of the last eight years, the current government at least has a grip on reality and ethical behavior.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CG:
Look out for the black helicopters, they're everywhere....
Do you guys honestly think that they can keep all of the NTSB, FBI, AA, and GE people investigating this to lie about the cause?
Get a grip guys!</font>

uh..yeah...maybe not the NTSB but the others...sure...money changes everything. and what's to prevent AA/GE from cutting a deal w/ the gov't for some $$ help in return for taking the blame?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of people here, and like Mountain Trader said the GE and AA people have a strong financial as well as ethical disincentive to lie about it.
[/B]</font>
But deals can always be cut when that much money and company viability is at stake.

I don;t turn every corner looking for things to be paranoid about...I'm just throwing out scenarios that seem plausible ot me...I obviously hadn't considered the fact very well that GE/AA might resist taking thee blame..which is why I love ot hear others' opinions...

Not debating if the could keep it a secret, in this case the wouldn't want to. They will use every reason available to fortify National and international resolve against terrorism.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CG:
Get a grip guys!</font>

Sometimes I hate the press, but I have to admit that they do serve a useful purpose. I am confident that they would unearth a cover up if there was one.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by eastwest:
Sometimes I hate the press, but I have to admit that they do serve a useful purpose. I am confident that they would unearth a cover up if there was one.
</font>

andit's been a long time since we had a true independent (or at least ethical like Kay Graham) press...

There is no good reason for the truth to be suppresed, whatever it is.

If it's terrorism, the government will use it to strengthen the international coalition against terrorists.

If it's an accident, AA/GE/Airbus will want to correct the problem so that this doesn't happen again.

Also, the NTSB is widely regarded for it's independence. And, Airbus's team from France is coming, so in addition to the NTSB and AA, the international team from Airbus should also help keep people honest.

d

This, to me, makes the Black Helicopter/ Con-trail UFO conspiracy folks seem well-reasoned and utterly sane by comparison.

You are kidding, right?

Reagan couldn't keep a simple arms for hostages deal quiet. Clinton couldn't keep a simple tryst with an intern quiet.

And yet you think the government could keep evidence that an airliner crashed due to a terrorist attack quiet?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mdtony:
You are kidding, right?

Reagan couldn't keep a simple arms for hostages deal quiet. Clinton couldn't keep a simple tryst with an intern quiet.

And yet you think the government could keep evidence that an airliner crashed due to a terrorist attack quiet?</font>

I don't know. This government is VERY good at keeping issues secret that they want to .

And look I'm not even proposing that it would be from entirely evil intent. If it was seen as for the good of the airlines and for the flying public, to think this was a freak accident when it wasn;t - there are some quarters who might support such a coverup.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ender83:


and for the rest of you and your 'contempt' for the current administration, let us not forget whose administration sold out national security secrets for illegal campaign contributions. buddhist temple, iced tea... ring any bells?

.</font>
the difference is I don;t have any great faith in MOST Politicians.. but if you want to look at unethical practives, EVERY administration has it's dirty deeds. My point is that I KNOW I have a bias against this administration, so I wanted to hear others points of view abot a potential coverup.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by squeakr:
My point is that I KNOW I have a bias against this administration, so I wanted to hear others points of view abot a potential coverup. </font>

The consensus is clear; it's ridiculous. How 'bout involving the Israeli's or the C.I.A.? Maybe the plane was shot down to increase support for the war?

There's so much real crazyness in the world right now-- why invent more?

Do not forget, the government is hiding any number of alien spacecraft at Roswell, the entire lunar landing program has been staged, there is no gold in Ft. Knox, they killed JFK, and they know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. For them , masking the cause of a simple plane crash is child's play.

squeakr,

I'd like to start out by saying that I'm a Conservative Democrat that fully supports the Bush administration.
Of course I'm sure that there will be lots of conspiracy theories. America likes that stuff!
Since I'm a businessman, I could only imagine the havic another attack would have on our economy.
I do agree with some of the above posters that in no way could there be a cover up of any kind re: the crash of the AA plane.

Please relax. And next time you're in NYC, I'll buy you a drink! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Dan

wigstheone,

FYI, Hoffa is buried at HPN. I thought this was a known fact, especially since you live here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dhammer53:
FYI, Hoffa is buried at HPN</font>

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification. I have been trying to figure out why I always have an irresistable urge to kiss the tarmac every time I land.

I haven;t bashed anyone or their points of view so I'd appreciate not being lumped in with a bunch of cuckooheads...

and maybe the terrorism angle isn't the main point...suppose it was some kind of domestic sabotage..a disgruntled employee, someone with an axe to grind (kinda like the FBI has put out on the anthrax thing) - I think there would be SOME people in the administration who wouldn't want that to get around....and by the time we found out the truth it wouldn;t matter so much...
and I have NO idea what the black helicopters are....


[This message has been edited by squeakr (edited 11-13-2001).]

The plane was full of Dominicans. Anyone with half a brain - and whatever one may think of the terrorists, they're not that stupid - would have known it would be. Whatever one's objective, be it hurting the US at one end of the spectrum, unifying the US at the other, or anything in between, this was not the flight to pick.

It could still be sabotage, since AA uses the same type of aircraft on several routes from the US to Europe and the saboteur might have thought the plane would be en route to the UK. Or an accident. Let's hope the latter.

As for keeping the real reason quiet? No way. Far, far too many people involved.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ender83:

unlike the political hacks of the last eight years, the current government at least has a grip on reality and ethical behavior.</font>

(Choking on a glass of milk, barely able to contain laughter/amazement).

Ummmm....

Reality/ ethics-

Social security is not a problem.

The Estate tax repeal benefits middle class folks.

The country's economic security is fine- no need to trim the tax cut.

Just because the Senate voted 100-0 to federalize airport security doesn't mean it was an idea in the national interest- seems to me the lobbyists who convinced 51% of the house have a better idea.

There was a credible threat on Air Force One on 9/11.

Ensuring that every vote counts isn't really important in a democracy.

Energy conservation is bad national policy and merely a sign of personal virtue.

George W. Bush made his money through hard work, personal sacrfice, and savvy business moves.

Strom Thurmond's 28 year old son who is 2 years out of law school will serve the people of South Carolina admirably as the U.S. Attorney.

Get off your high horse, W-backers. Clinton was hardly a paragon of ethics, but let's get a freaking grip here... This administration is not exactly as pure as the driven snow. If anyone thinks so, they aren;t looking at reality.

People make fun of my governor, but at least I know who is behind his stupid decisions. Him, and him alone. I know and he knows to whom he is accountable- the voters - and noone else.

Jesse 2004.

As an outsider looking in....I think that if it was an attack (which I believe 100% it is not) it would be in the governments best interest to state it as such for aforementioned reasons.

As for a governments ability to coverup things....well....TWA 800 is good for a start....among others....here in Canada we have the National Secrets Act....there are things I have read 20 years ago as an intelligence officer that I can't talk about under penalty of jail.....and a military jail at that. The government...any government, can cover up almost anything they want to.

I don't think there is a reason for paranoia here however.

My heart goes out to the victims and the relatives.

Let's not forget that they closed the other 2 airports (NEVER been done before for a plane crash) and the bridges & tunnels for a few hours until the indications showed that it likely WASN'T terrorism (although I think most of us here could have told them that from the circumstances). Having taken all the sensible precautions (and a few that weren't) I can't fathom any rational reason for later relaxing the precautions other than the authorities concluded the crash was likely going to turn out to be an accident.

Not that it matters but...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BoSoxFan45:
Social security is not a problem.
</font>

Social security IS a problem. It needs to be eliminated, and NOW.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
The Estate tax repeal benefits middle class folks.</font>

It does. it's not hard to amass a $2 Million estate. A lot of middle class families do amass this kind of estate, and it's wrong for teh government to take a majority of value over $2 Million.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
The country's economic security is fine- no need to trim the tax cut.</font>

Raising taxes will NOT help the economy in any way.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Just because the Senate voted 100-0 to federalize airport security doesn't mean it was an idea in the national interest- seems to me the lobbyists who convinced 51% of the house have a better idea.</font>

Agree with your point here. But this is our form of government. We have to find a way to make things work within it. Politicians in general are nothing more than whores in expensive suits.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
There was a credible threat on Air Force One on 9/11.</font>

I'm not in a position to know whether this one is true or not. Are you? In fact I tend to believe thsi one, as Bin Laden has expressed direct threats against Bush on several occasions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Ensuring that every vote counts isn't really important in a democracy.</font>

I'm not sure what your point is with this one.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Energy conservation is bad national policy and merely a sign of personal virtue.</font>

Again I'm not sure where you're heading with this one.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
George W. Bush made his money through hard work, personal sacrfice, and savvy business moves.</font>

I don't believe anyone has ever claimed he did make his money this way. However there are no laws in this country against inheriting a fortune, as far as I know.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Strom Thurmond's 28 year old son who is 2 years out of law school will serve the people of South Carolina admirably as the U.S. Attorney.</font>

I am completely unqualified to argue on this point, unfortuantely. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Get off your high horse, W-backers. Clinton was hardly a paragon of ethics, but let's get a freaking grip here... This administration is not exactly as pure as the driven snow. If anyone thinks so, they aren;t looking at reality.</font>

True, anyone who has any real faith in ANY politician above the state level is incredibly naive.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
People make fun of my governor, but at least I know who is behind his stupid decisions. Him, and him alone. I know and he knows to whom he is accountable- the voters - and noone else.

Jesse 2004.</font>


I am a big fan of Jesse Ventura, despite the fact that I am not a resident of Minnesota. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Go Independents! Truth be known, I am a libertarian at heart. I vote Republican because I am a realist. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JonNYC:
How 'bout involving the Israeli's or the C.I.A.?</font>

Blame Canada! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Carioca Canuck:
As for a governments ability to coverup things....well....TWA 800 is good for a start</font>

What secret coverup was there of TWA 800? The NTSB already reported what happened, if I recall. It you want to read about a coverup, read the cover story of the November issue of The Atlantic Monthly. It describes how the NTSB determined the cause of the crash of EgyptAir 990 (co-pilot), but the Egyptian government is trying to cover it up.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">....here in Canada we have the National Secrets Act....</font>

We have the Freedom of Information Act. This type of information would definitely fit the bill.

Besides, as has been posted above, do you really think the government could influence the NTSB, AA and Airbus? And I still contend that there are too many conflicting interests for anyone to win out in a coverup attempt.


As far as the estate tax that was mentioned - not exactly on the topic, but - if a person in their 20s invests $2000 a year for 7 years ($14,000 total investment) in an IRA that earns a reasonable return, at retirement they will have over a million dollars in their account. A middle class family with two working parents can save a couple million dollars in IRAs in this manner. But, should they die before spending their savings - a 50% cut should go to the government? I don't think so, these people paid tax on the money when they earned it by working and when they made capital gains / dividends from investing. How many times should middle class (or any class) people be forced to pay taxes on the same money?

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dhammer53:
FYI, Hoffa is buried at HPN. </font>

When did they move him from the Giants Stadium end zone?

well, before i could even begin to compose my reply to bosoxfan, srq guy stole my thunder http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif excellent points, all of which i am in agreement with.

and for the record, i am an indepedent conservative, not a partisan.

Doppy.....

"Atlantic Monthly" eh ??....I haven't heard of this publication before.....it sounds interesting....so I'll go looking for it at a local newstand that specializes in finding hard to get magazines and newswpapers here in YYC. Thanks for the info.

I'm in the missile camp as far as TWA 800 goes and don't want to debate it here....but I hope this answers your question.

First, everybody thanks for the amusement.
Second, Please don't all get a grip at the same time, I don't deal well in that kind of environment... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I also point out that I have heard about all the alien ships secretly kept in Roswell, so is it really a secret? It's kinda like trying to cover up someone with only a thong, just don't go there.

Doppy, re: estate tax and your example, you ignore the fact that a 20 something person who invests now would be retiring in 40-50 years, and most likely (of course not absolutely) the estate tax minimums would have increased over all those years and they wouldn't be subject to the tax... You and everyone else also are forgetting that there are like 100 gazillion (legal) ways of getting your money out of your estate during your life, so the estate tax really should be renamed the Tax on Stupidity and insanely filthy rich (who just can't get rid of it all-Bill Gates comes to mind, but he is probably going to die a pauper (on paper) too).

And most importantly, don't forget that the elimination of the estate tax has some severe downsides too, we are talking MAJOR reduction of work for lawyers and accountants, which means no jobs for the assistants, paralegals, secretaries they employ... Do you really want that many lawyers walking around with nothing to do? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif They would probably have time to search out the cause and the coverup (if there was one).

Interesting point about the reduction of jobs for the legal profession and accountants, but heck, that's an old chestnut trotted out by almost every industry threatened by change. Carriage makers and horse team owners were very much against the horseless carriage with similar arguments. What people tend to forget is that people are a lot more adaptable than they are given credit for, and an argument (even perhaps one 'tongue-in-cheek') that seeks to avoid some kind of change premised on the resulting loss of jobs is unsupportable. Those impacted by this would learn that the work due to the tax was not a God-given but rather a government-given right, and that they should their focus their efforts in other directions - which they would do, kicking and screaming, just as others have to do when they get laid off. Government tax laws do not exist as a job entitlement in and of itself for accountants, lawyers and other who profit from them. However, this is definitely one of the main reasons it's so difficult to change tax laws - all the vested interests with their lobbyists who have done very well for themselves in the existing structure who resist ANY change unless it's to their personal benefit.

As they say in the South, 'that dog don't hunt 'round here'! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Fermat:
Blame Canada! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

It's not even a real country anyway!

[Written by a Canadian citizen.]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dhammer53:
wigstheone,

FYI, Hoffa is buried at HPN. I thought this was a known fact, especially since you live here. </font>

Everyone knows that Jimmy Hoffa is buried under the Meadowlands Sports Complex. If you don't believe me, ask Tony Soprano.


[This message has been edited by Rssrsvp (edited 11-14-2001).]

Coverup by GE?

Don't forget that GE own's NBC.

If there WAS a coverup - and it was found out- NBC's credibility would be forever in question. Further - if there WAS a coverup - ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, etc. would be DYING to UNCOVER IT - as it would be a real coup to show that NBC's parent company is an evil monolith.

Somehow - I doubt it.

JB

------------------
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,and there you will forever long to return." Leonardo da Vinci

I was just running at the mouth, but wanted to make a general point.

But to respond specifically to a few things-

Karl Rowe was lying about the "credible threat to Air Force one". I will look for a link. But this has been confirmed by the NY Times and Wash Post, among others.

W did not inherit his money. But he made it through a series of deals which I consider ethically questionable, and which would not have been available to anyone without his name and daddy's connections.

And it appears the economy 20 years from no is not any concern to most people. I'm not looking forward to paying 70% tax in 25 years because this admistration was fiscally prodigal. Think that will be a drag on the economy? Or maybe some people don't care, because they will be out of the workforce.


This is going horribly omni, but my point simply was that this administration is not too different from the Clinton adminstration in terms of trustworthyness.... it is a problem which permeates the existing federal government. I don't trust any of them.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:

As far as the estate tax that was mentioned - not exactly on the topic, but - if a person in their 20s invests $2000 a year for 7 years ($14,000 total investment) in an IRA that earns a reasonable return, at retirement they will have over a million dollars in their account. A middle class family with two working parents can save a couple million dollars in IRAs in this manner. But, should they die before spending their savings - a 50% cut should go to the government? I don't think so, these people paid tax on the money when they earned it by working and when they made capital gains / dividends from investing. How many times should middle class (or any class) people be forced to pay taxes on the same money?

d</font>

The reality is that much of this money is NEVER taxed... it comes in the form of unrealized capital gains. Say Joe C invests 100,000 in a start-up company. 50 years later, he dies, never having sold a share, and the company is worth $100,000,000.

1) Good for him.
2) This gain has never been realized, and has never been taxed. Because ceratin assets can be transferred at death at an increased cost basis, if Joe C's beneficiary seels immediately, they pay no tax on this $99,999,000 gain.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by squeakr:
I don't know. This government is VERY good at keeping issues secret that they want to.</font>

You mean like the aliens at Roswell?

They can keep some things hushed up, but even things that are deep black, as in the existance of them is not even acknowledged, come to light. Look at, for example, the B-2, which the Air Force never said existed for a long time. Or, the Aurora spy plane, which still doesn't officially exist.

And we know about these things.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mdtony:
You mean like the aliens at Roswell?

They can keep some things hushed up, but even things that are deep black, as in the existance of them is not even acknowledged, come to light. Look at, for example, the B-2, which the Air Force never said existed for a long time. Or, the Aurora spy plane, which still doesn't officially exist.

And we know about these things.</font>

Almost 40 years later, we're still waiting for confirmation of the CIA's involvement in the JFK assassination.

Since this crash wasn't planned -- or are you saying it was and that was part of the conspiracy? -- I find it highly inconceivable that such a conspiracy could be whipped together in a half-hour or less, contingency plans or no.

What has amazed me about this topic is the amount of people who think it would be impossible for the government to cover up something like this.

Granted, it would be highly unlikely they would want to cover it up, and highly unlikely they could cover it up for long. But impossible? No.

Do you think people 40 years ago could believe some of the stuff that is uncovered in unsealed documents today? Probably unimaginable at that time.

I'm not saying our government is one big conspiracy theory. I'm just saying anything is possible.

Mike

For all the conspiracy lovers...

Nov. 12th New Jersey lottery:
Midday 3 . . . . . . . 5-7-8
...
Pick 3 . . . . . . . 5-8-7
from ( http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20011113/3618306s.htm )

Without a doubt, someone fixed the NJ lottery on Nov. 12th and used the flight number to signal his accomplices which numbers to pick.

People, wake up. There is such thing as coincident.

Instead of spending time on conspiracy or cover-up theories we should help and victims and move on with our lives.

------------------
Sagy

[This message has been edited by Sagy (edited 11-14-2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Carioca Canuck:
Doppy.....

"Atlantic Monthly" eh ??....I haven't heard of this publication before.....it sounds interesting....so I'll go looking for it at a local newstand that specializes in finding hard to get magazines and newswpapers here in YYC. Thanks for the info.</font>

http://www.theatlantic.com/

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the story is available online. But, maybe this will help you find the magazine.

d

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
http://www.theatlantic.com/

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the story is available online. But, maybe this will help you find the magazine.

d</font>


it's a great magazine (and FYI it Does NOT specialize in conspiracy theories - it's mostly a literary policitcal magazine wth a liberal bent) I have the article and woudd be happy to send out copies to anyone who is interested. Email me with your snail mail address. It's a good article which draws no specific conclusions of a "coverup" - only the sad reality that this may have been a suicide for entirely personal reasons.

This thread is crazy!

You guys need to lay off the crack pipe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For those conspiracy theorists who are so inclined, take a look at www.twa800.com (http://www.twa800.com) .

Great thread. We have covered Airbus 300 safety, to a conspiracy to cover facts, to Social Security and welfare....

So, back on topic, when is the NTSB supposed to issue an official ruling/report on this incident?

First of all, if we're going to get into conspiracy theories, it's not crack we're smoking; it's pot or hash. Secondly, there are a lot of reasons why the government would suppress information and/or control the flow of information regarding the cause of the crash...and it is a crash, not an "attack". Keep in mind that at first, it was birds in the engine, now it's the tail sheering off (first time in history jet aviation) and who knows what it is going to be tomorrow? The airline industry has everything to lose if Thankgiving traffic goes south or there's aircraft grounding due to another attack. Look at how the stock market went up as soon it "appeared" to be an accident. Without proof or hard facts, even if they're suspicious, the government can say what it wants to skew public opinion; they certainly haven't closed the door on the possibility of sabotage. Don't we "appear" to be gaining territory in Afghanistan during this time as well? So maybe I've been smoking too much, and I sincerely want it to be an accident, but there are too many coincidences surrounding this "crash" not to speculate. And in a case like this, at a time like this, the government is only going to tell us what they want to tell us, and not before they have to tell us. Joint anyone?

Here's why the government won't cover up. What airline crash would it have made the most sense to cover up? What one would have made the most sense to hide in order to preserve the reputation of the US?

Anyone want to nominate the shooting down of the Iran Airlines plane by the Vincennes?

And this would have been a situation where it would have been easy to cover everything up. You've got a navy ship, and can just order everyone on board to shut up and not talk. It's a country that most Americans don't give a **** about, so nobody would have paid attention.

But we came out and admitted to our error.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ender83:
cg you are right on the money.

and for the rest of you and your 'contempt' for the current administration, let us not forget whose administration sold out national security secrets for illegal campaign contributions. buddhist temple, iced tea... ring any bells?

unlike the political hacks of the last eight years, the current government at least has a grip on reality and ethical behavior.</font>

Lets not forget perjury and the host of other implications of illegal activity.

I would like a deal on this hash/pot y'all are smoking. Clearly you have copious amounts to deal with.

Please send an eighth to:
Rob K
College Park, MD 20740

(Unmarked envelopes, please- you don't need the hassle!)

Some people here have been very hard on our ex-pres (you know who you are), I think it is time to smoke the peacepipe, so whoever is distributing all the hash/pot, please forward some to Former Pres. Clinton (after all he has waited a long time to inhale) and while you are at it, send some to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue too. Perhaps the US would be more popular around the world if the commander in chief was required to smoke a little every day. lol

And what is with this rattling in the cockpit tapes thing, have these people never flown, there are always rattles during takeover, and I would say severe rattles on 10% or more of my flights (maybe its just NW???) ... people are going to start freaking out during takeoff...

Think I will check out that atlintic monthly website.

and anyone know some good conspiracy theory websites while we are at it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Mike M:

Do you think people 40 years ago could believe some of the stuff that is uncovered in unsealed documents today? Probably unimaginable at that time.</font>

Big diffrence between information now and 40 years ago. Anyone with an internet connection can publicize to the entire world (well you know...), anonomously...

Good point Freefaller, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be covered up, just more unlikely.

Mike

Just the opposite. I think coverups are actually easier to pull off with a free-flowing information society. Best way to pull off a coverup in the internet age is to publicize it and let the spin meisters debunk the "conspiracy theory" types. After awhile, everyone just moves on to the next story. Just ask Rep. Condit about that.

Face it, given the multiple competing interests out there, we will never get a straight story from the government, the manufacturers of every component of the plane, AA, the pilot's union, the victim's lawyers, etc. Just too much $$ and/or politics at stake, even if there is no chance that a terrorist attack happened.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by se94583:
Just the opposite. I think coverups are actually easier to pull off with a free-flowing information society. Best way to pull off a coverup in the internet age is to publicize it and let the spin meisters debunk the "conspiracy theory" types. After awhile, everyone just moves on to the next story. Just ask Rep. Condit about that.

Face it, given the multiple competing interests out there, we will never get a straight story from the government, the manufacturers of every component of the plane, AA, the pilot's union, the victim's lawyers, etc. Just too much $$ and/or politics at stake, even if there is no chance that a terrorist attack happened.</font>

Good point. Look at the elegance of "wake turbulence" as an explanation. No one to blame but the wind...