California - SAN noise curfew for takeoff- is there a fine?

I had boarded Flight 450 SAN->ORD last night when the pilot announced the aircraft had a flat tire. They were going to try to move us to a plane at the adjacent gate, but we had a very short window to do so before the a noise curfew prohibiting takeoffs after a certain hour went into effect. In order to make it in time, we had less than 10 minutes to reboard the new craft. The captain emphasized twice that no airplanes are allowed to take off after this cutoff time, it is against regulations.

The GAs used an impressive method of lining us up in the new jetway using some system that appeared to board pax in an order that alternated several rows at a time between the front and back of plane. Amazingly it worked and we boarded in about 8 minutes, bags stowed and all. Unfortunately, the plane appeared to still be in the process of being refueled, and by the time this was finished it was too late and the flight was canceled.

I later heard other pax grumbling that they actually can take off after the cutoff time, but have to pay fine if they do. Anyone know if this is true? I'm just curious how large in scope the fine is, and wonder if it is more than the cost of the flight (#9798) that UA added (http://http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=527071) to accomodate us all.

Seems like SJC and SAN both have some sort of airport noise curfew. I didn't look long and hard (I'm sure there's better info if you Google long enough) but here is one of the results that got returned...seems like it's true!

http://www.san.org/authority/environmental_affairs/airport_noise/index.asp

Seems like SJC and SAN both have some sort of airport noise curfew. I didn't look long and hard (I'm sure there's better info if you Google long enough) but here is one of the results that got returned...seems like it's true!

http://www.san.org/authority/environmental_affairs/airport_noise/index.asp
Thanks! Hm, interesting, it looks like the fines range from $1000 to $5000 per violation, depending on how many that carrier has already racked up that quarter. I'm surprised United didn't just eat the fine; $5k has to be cheaper than adding an extra flight and re-routing pax who had more complex itineraries.

Yep, those curfews are definitely there, as well as at a number of other airports (SNA is the absolute worst -- partly for the hours, partly for philosophical reasons). New curfews are prohibited under federal law, but those in existence before the pre-emptive federal law was put into place are grandfathered in.

Based on the link provided, it would appear that the actual fine is negligible compared to the costs of canceling the flight. There may easily be further ramifications we're not aware of, though.

For all I know (and I'd bet some caysh on it), the fines increase for every incident. With that in mind, I'm sure United doesn't want to get into a situation where they are in the $10,000-$20,000 range for fines.

Thanks! Hm, interesting, it looks like the fines range from $1000 to $5000 per violation, depending on how many that carrier has already racked up that quarter. I'm surprised United didn't just eat the fine; $5k has to be cheaper than adding an extra flight and re-routing pax who had more complex itineraries.

I agree - probably costs more to add a new flight, etc.

So in this case, who would make the call to 'break' the curfew law? Station Manager? Pilot? Central Ops? ... or who decided that they should cancel the flight and add a flight in the morning?

Yes, it could be done, but there would be a fine. It is not good airline practice nonetheless to just swallow the fine.

The worst of all airports is SNA. Not only are there serious noise restrictions, but the runway is very short, and I know it is among the most strenuous departures. Instead of getting a good speed, the aircraft have to stay extremely slow with a high degree of flaps, and have to gain a lot of altitude. Certainly interesting...

At SJC the curfew exempts delayed aircraft.
http://www.sjc.org/community/curfew.html

At SAN apparently only emergencies are exempted.
http://www.san.org/authority/environmental_affairs/airport_noise/airport_use_regulations.asp

For all I know (and I'd bet some caysh on it), the fines increase for every incident. With that in mind, I'm sure United doesn't want to get into a situation where they are in the $10,000-$20,000 range for fines.

No, the highest fine is $5K (for a repeat offender during that quarter) -- it's all dependent on the situation, too. . . UA could have defended itself if it was a few minutes late (saying it did its best to meet the curfew, etc.) -- probably wouldn't have gotten fined.... guess they didn't want to take the chance.

There aren't many curfews left (thanks to the ANCA legislation signed about 16 years ago that makes it very, very, very difficult to enact new curfews...)

Oh, and the curfew is also the reason you can't get to Florida from SAN non-stop. . . . the only flights that make sense are red-eyes (very late ones) - - and AA, B6, US, and others can't put them in the schedule because of the curfew.

The GAs used an impressive method of lining us up in the new jetway using some system that appeared to board pax in an order that alternated several rows at a time between the front and back of plane. Amazingly it worked and we boarded in about 8 minutes, bags stowed and all. Unfortunately, the plane appeared to still be in the process of being refueled, and by the time this was finished it was too late and the flight was canceled.

I later heard other pax grumbling that they actually can take off after the cutoff time, but have to pay fine if they do. Anyone know if this is true? I'm just curious how large in scope the fine is, and wonder if it is more than the cost of the flight (#9798) that UA added (http://http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=527071) to accomodate us all.
1) Taking off after a curfew is still wrong, even if you can pay a penalty.
2) If the pilot says "folks, there's no rush, we'll just pay a fine" instead of "folks, you have 10 minutes to board the other plane or else we're staying here for the night", you'll have a different attitude from pax ;)

It's not just about the fine.

It's also to prevent lawsuits from $$$$$$$$$$$rich newport beach + corona del mar residents$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The tower is open 24 hr for landings. Takeoffs are limited:

Noise Abatement: In efct; no tkof 11:30 pm to 6:30 am Stage III acft; 10 pm to 7 am for Stage II; ctc APM for more info ctc: 619/400-xxx

In any case the FAA tower would not have prevented the takeoff, they probably would have informed the captain of the curfew and cleared him. (IMO)

Although the op was on a UA flight, the question is about procedures at SAN that apply to any airline. Therefore since this isn't UA specific and for the sake of future searching, I am moving this to the Destinations/California forum.

cblaisd
Moderator, United