TalkBoard Topics - TB Members- please comment on your Mattress Run voting decisions

Cholula, gleff, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey why did you vote for-
"a Hotel Deals subforum be created in the Mileage Run forum for discussion of hotel deals condusive to "mattress running" as well as pricing glitches and lowest price guarantees."?

ozstamps, why did you vote against it?

****

doc, ozstamps why did you vote for-
"that a new full forum, (not a subforum), called "Mattress Run," be established, open to all, for "Discussion of hotel itineraries solely for obtaining stay credits, maximum points and/or miles, or for only for the miles or points, or because it's nearly free."

Cholula, gleff, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey why did you vote against it?

I voted for this because I felt the need to move the large amounts of hotel deals out of the mileage run forum; I voted for the 1st and against the 2nd because I felt that this new forum should be a part of the exiting forum, thus eliminating the need for new modertors.

The Mileage Run forum has become home not just to airfare deals geared towards earning status in a loyalty program inexpensively or quickly (the original idea of the forum). It has grown to include all sorts of travel deals, including airfares with carriers offering no loyalty programs, cheap hotel rates, etc.

I don't want to see these exciting offers go away. But I also want to protect the core conception of a mileage run, and as I understand it several regulars and key contributors want this as well.

While airfares booked on, say, Expedia will generally earn miles and qualifying points, hotel deals often will not. And many of the deals posted for hotels are bookable on Expedia only, or Travelocity only, or Cheaptickets only, etc. In other words, many of the hotel deals aren't really potential mattress runs -- they're cheap hotel stays.

They've become a part of Mileage Run but I'd like to see them organized better and perhaps cordoned off so that -- while valuable -- they don't detract from the core mission of the mileage run forum.

At the same time a good chunk of such postings really are not potential mattress runs. (e.g. Four Seasons Jimbaran Bay offers $3 rooms, but no stay/night credit or redeemable points there...)

So anyway a mattress run forum made less sense to me in the context of what people are actually posting and with the goal of preserving and advancing the mileage run concept without diminishing the deals that people post for non-mileage run travel.

Is there a reason why bhatnasx's general idea for a separate subforum for dead deal discussions (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=513404) was not considered and submitted for a vote? Since he, as a MileageRun moderator, wants the discretion to move threads discussing expired deals to a separate sub-forum so as to allevate clutter and prevent live deals from being displaced, I say why not give it to him?

In this context, might we carefully consider what we are asking a volunteer to do. This is not a funded fully-staffed effort to make FlyerTalk available to the many. It's a collection os givers, volunteers and otherwise busy people with their own lives and of course, that will include time for them to personally enjoy what others do. My personal guess, and i may be wrong, is that there was consideration of how to make this work as if there were no volunteers or moderators. The time required to move threads around should never be a requirement when consideration of new venues for FlyerTalk. We can give it to him, but what does he get in return, but a requirement to give even more time to FT? Hardy fair. He won't complain, but we all owe it to ourselves to not create environments that require maintenance at the outset. Again, my personal opinion.


Is there a reason why bhatnasx's general idea for a separate subforum for dead deal discussions (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=513404) was not considered and submitted for a vote? Since he, as a MileageRun moderator, wants the discretion to move threads discussing expired deals to a separate sub-forum so as to allevate clutter and prevent live deals from being displaced, I say why not give it to him?

In this context, might we carefully consider what we are asking a volunteer to do. This is not a funded fully-staffed effort to make FlyerTalk available to the many. It's a collection os givers, volunteers and otherwise busy people with their own lives and of course, that will include time for them to personally enjoy what others do. My personal guess, and i may be wrong, is that there was consideration of how to make this work as if there were no volunteers or moderators. The time required to move threads around should never be a requirement when consideration of new venues for FlyerTalk. We can give it to him, but what does he get in return, but a requirement to give even more time to FT? Hardy fair. He won't complain, but we all owe it to ourselves to not create environments that require maintenance at the outset. Again, my personal opinion.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the objective should be to further reduce the burden on moderators, rather than the other way around. But in this case the specific moderator has asked for that responsibility.

My suggestion is that a dead deal discussion subforum be a discretionary subforum. In other words, no MileageRun moderarator is obligated to spent time searching for dead deals that must be moved, but rather those moderators have the option to make a move to reduce MileageRun clutter if and when it is convenient and in their best judgment to do so. Why not give them that option? If bhatnasx, dmfriedman, and/or DLSIZE determine that it is too burdensome to relocate dead deal threads, then any or all of them can decline to use that option. But bhatnasx at least seems ready, willing, and able to do so (it was his proposal, after all).

I voted for a subforum and against a new forum so that one would be able to shop for deals for airfare and hotels in the same forum and because hotel deals may be conducive to one traveling to a new destination but might not earn any points on their own.

I do think that the hotel deals that have been posted of late are very valuable and do not want them to stop being posted. I felt that from an organizational perspective, the subforum made more sense.

I voted for a subforum and against a new forum so that one would be able to shop for deals for airfare and hotels in the same forum and because hotel deals may be conducive to one traveling to a new destination but might not earn any points on their own.

I do think that the hotel deals that have been posted of late are very valuable and do not want them to stop being posted. I felt that from an organizational perspective, the subforum made more sense.

I totally agree with what Gary said here.... I personally had no problem with the hotel deals being handled the way they are today in the Milease Run forum.... but felt this option was the best solution with the least member disruption.

William

Is there a reason why bhatnasx's general idea for a separate subforum for dead deal discussions (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=513404) was not considered and submitted for a vote? Since he, as a MileageRun moderator, wants the discretion to move threads discussing expired deals to a separate sub-forum so as to allevate clutter and prevent live deals from being displaced, I say why not give it to him?

Yes, there is a pretty valid reason; Initially Bhatnasx approched the Talkboard president with the proposal of creating the hotel sub-forum (this was in a PM he allowed Gleff to share with the Talkboard). We acted on THAT PM and created the votes for the sub-forum idea. It wasn't until AFTER that that the new thread was created proposing all kinds of other ideas. FWIW; we acted upon Bhatnasx's idea on December 14th and started our debate. The "new" debate with other ideas didn't start till 3 weeks later; by then we had already started voting on our initial ideas.

Yes, there is a pretty valid reason; Initially Bhatnasx approched the Talkboard president with the proposal of creating the hotel sub-forum (this was in a PM he allowed Gleff to share with the Talkboard). We acted on THAT PM and created the votes for the sub-forum idea. It wasn't until AFTER that that the new thread was created proposing all kinds of other ideas. FWIW; we acted upon Bhatnasx's idea on December 14th and started our debate. The "new" debate with other ideas didn't start till 3 weeks later; by then we had already started voting on our initial ideas.

Fair enough.

Does you or the TalkBoard as a whole have any plans to consider the idea of creating a sub-forum for dead deal discussions, available for use at the discretion of the moderators? If not, I think you should.

I think you should.

And THAT is enough for us to consider it; we are here to serve the members of Flyertalk. I'd like to get some more member input on this idea, especially from the moderators of that forum.

FWIW; I also proposed that we create new thread icons for in front of the thread; simple icons like "dead", "hot" or "deal" might make reading the forum a much easier task, perhaps we can combine the whole process.

SAT Lawyer,

Just so you know, to my knowledge, the moderators were not solicited for feedback on this decision. Any feedback we provided to the TB was in the form of the thread that I started.

bhatnasx
Mileage Run Moderator

The TB motion and subsequent vote came almost verbatim from a request by bhatnasx made via PM to the TB president, so I don't understand how feedback wasn't solicited.

Cholula, gleff, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey why did you vote for-

"a Hotel Deals subforum be created in the Mileage Run forum for discussion of hotel deals condusive to "mattress running" as well as pricing glitches and lowest price guarantees."?

ozstamps, why did you vote against it?

****

doc, ozstamps why did you vote for-

"that a new full forum, (not a subforum), called "Mattress Run," be established, open to all, for "Discussion of hotel itineraries solely for obtaining stay credits, maximum points and/or miles, or for only for the miles or points, or because it's nearly free."


Cholula, gleff, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey why did you vote against it?

Speciifc answer chexfan - as I believed the new Forum should be a SEPERATE Forum, not a sub forum. And I seconded the motion that would have made it so.

I voted agains the other motion as it was for a sub-forum and as I belived it was sloppily worded, and made no mention of whether all members would have access or whether it would be closed to many here, like Coupon Connection, SPAM and OMNI.

The TB motion and subsequent vote came almost verbatim from a request by bhatnasx made via PM to the TB president, so I don't understand how feedback wasn't solicited.

I don't wish to get into any negative discussions & I do respect the TalkBoard & its mission - yes, I did make a recommendation via PM to the TalkBoard. However, it was a basic recommendation with some thoughts that I had discussed with dmfriedman, my co-moderator. To my knowledge, after this PM (which was presented to the TB with my permission) was sent, no MR moderators or general members were asked for any input or feedback. That is the reason why I started the thread that I started.

bhatnasx
Mileage Run Moderator

I don't wish to get into any negative discussions & I do respect the TalkBoard & its mission - yes, I did make a recommendation via PM to the TalkBoard. However, it was a basic recommendation with some thoughts that I had discussed with dmfriedman, my co-moderator. To my knowledge, after this PM (which was presented to the TB with my permission) was sent, no MR moderators or general members were asked for any input or feedback. That is the reason why I started the thread that I started.

bhatnasx
Mileage Run Moderator

Then it is clear we failed in communicating with you; I can't speak for the entire board, but I am sorry for this, and can only hope we learn from it in future issues.

Then it is clear we failed in communicating with you; I can't speak for the entire board, but I am sorry for this, and can only hope we learn from it in future issues.

No harm done, ScottC - I'm glad that the you & hopefully other members of the TalkBoard recognize this and in the future solicit feedback from members.

Thanks!

I don't wish to get into any negative discussions & I do respect the TalkBoard & its mission - yes, I did make a recommendation via PM to the TalkBoard. However, it was a basic recommendation with some thoughts that I had discussed with dmfriedman, my co-moderator. To my knowledge, after this PM (which was presented to the TB with my permission) was sent, no MR moderators or general members were asked for any input or feedback. That is the reason why I started the thread that I started.

bhatnasx
Mileage Run Moderator


I am missing something. You made a timely suggestion to a TB member which was tabled on TB forum for a Mattress Run Forum to be considered.

It was voted on - not once, but twice.

you asked in this Forum on Jan 6 what EXACTLY was being voted on, and were told the 2 motions - word perfect -- weeks before the vote ended. i.e.



Originally Posted by bhatnasx

Any details as to what the proposals are? This is a forum whose success is based on the contributions of the membership. If the TB is voting on this already, then that implies that there is a forum structure that has been proposed & has been discussed. Can any TB member elaborate on this to the general public before the votes are tallied so that the general public can give its input?

Thanks!



You asked the above on your own thread - which was answered same day with: (2 weeks back)




Sure; one vote is on a brand new forum:

"that a new full forum, (not a subforum), called "Mattress Run," be established, open to all, for "Discussion of hotel itineraries solely for obtaining stay credits, maximum points and/or miles, or for only for the miles or points, or because it's nearly free.",

the other is a vote on

"a subforum in MR for a Hotel Deals subforum be created in the Mileage Run forum for discussion of hotel deals condusive to "mattress running" as well as pricing glitches and lowest price guarantees".

Hope this helps.

To which many members added their input here.

How more transparent do you want? ;)

I do not understand the comment:

" no MR moderators or general members were asked for any input or feedback. "

They added (or could have added if they were interested) any of their thoughts right here before the vote was concluded. Many did.

I do not understand the comment:

" no MR moderators or general members were asked for any input or feedback. "

They added (or could have added if they were interested) any of their thoughts right here before the vote was concluded. Many did.

You are completely correct - to a point, Oz - but I guess the point that I was making which you may not have understood was that the TalkBoard members did not actively solicit membership input. As you've correctly stated above, I did make a suggestion the TB, with which they came up with 2 possible scenarios (as ScottC pointed out - referenced in your quote above) - however, at that point, until the thread was started, no moderator or member input was asked for (to my knowledge) prior to that thread existing. Had that thread not been started, then I don't believe the TB would have asked for, nor received, any sort of member input. The decision to choose between two possible scenarios was already on the table in the TB forum & was already apparently up for a vote - yet, no TB member, to my knowledge, publically solicited opinions from the members that elected them. If you can show me otherwise - where a TB member, unprompted, asked for member feedback or even let the members even know that this was a topic of discussion in the TalkBoard forum, I'll happily retract my statement.

If you can show me otherwise - where a TB member, unprompted, asked for member feedback or even let the members even know that this was a topic of discussion in the TalkBoard forum, I'll happily retract my statement.

Retract away ..... be my guest. ;)

As early as December 15 in this Forum I posted that discussion (not voting) was underway on such an idea - the day after your PM to TB was tabled in fact:



Actually as a connected offshoot to this general discussion TB is presently looking at a member suggestion re the MR Forum that broadly fits under the "new/different/creative solution" umbrella you mention actually. ;)

My guess is that spin-off suggestion will go to a vote .....


It was in a MR related thread here that you not only posted on more than once, but moved to ORP. :D

Seriously Sam, you made a suggestion to a TB member. (Not me.) That member raised it on TB. So far, so good.

Now whether that TB member told you that, I have no idea. No big deal - you have a keyboard - why send not a short note to that person ASKING if anything was being discussed? How tough is that? It was your idea - so you have the most interest in learning what gives with it. I have found sending follow ups in such cases is usually fruitful.

Likewise, you could have emailed me and asked what exactly I was referring to if you were otherwise unclear about my post above, and I would have gladly told you. ;)

Much of the facts above fly in the face of what you emailed all Talkboard members today. The fact is had the vote for a separate Forum succeeded the moderation of it would be Randy's call, not anyone else's. Certainly not TB's. He may well have chosen folks totally un-connected with MR forum for that volunteer role.

Ah, but Glen, in your quoted line - you never did ask for any sort of member or moderator feedback...

;)

Again, I do not wish to engage in any sort of negative arguments here. From what I understand, in general & from prior experience, TB deliberations are generally kept to the TB (weren't there some candidates who had a platform of transparency? ;)) - that transparency didn't happen, IMHO. So it goes...

Much of the facts above fly in the face of what you emailed all Talkboard members today. The fact is had the vote for a separate Forum succeeded the moderation of it would be Randy's call, not anyone else's. Certainly not TB's. He may well have chosen folks totally un-connected with MR forum for that volunteer role.

I never made any commentary on the future moderators of the subforum - so I'm not really certain what you're trying to say here. And to be honest - whatever it is, I see no relevance to the commentaries that I did make to TB members in public or in private.

That said, all I did in this thread is was respond to a post by a member. I do not wish to engage in any sort of arguments with you or any other TalkBoard member - many of whom, yourself included, I do consider to be a friend. I expressed what my thoughts are & am entitled to that as a voting member & volunteer of FlyerTalk. And of course, you're entitled to your disagreements. I respect can respect that as well...

As a FT member the Mileage Run forum has absolutely no attraction to me. And a "Mattress Run" forum/sub-forum has even less appeal to me. I've only checked MR out a few times over the years and it's not something that interests me. So I looked at the discussion of the members who were in favor of a separate hotel/mattress-run forum wanted and voted along those lines.
I thought this issue warranted a sub-forum rather than a separate forum only because I feel both concepts are related and should stay in the same forum.