Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs - Israir to get Designated status on NYC-TLV

According to Globes:
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000039372&fid=942

El Al is most unhappy, but I am not :)

So what does this mean in practical terms?

The minister of transport is about to decide in the next few days on revoking the monopoly of LY as the only designated Israeli carrier between Israel and USA. A report that was handed to the minister today states that the agreement between Israel and the USA states that every American carrier that wants to fly to Israel can while Israel limits it's own carriers. The report also states that while traffic on the NYC route went up by 47% in the last 2 years, the seat capacity did not change by much creating blokage and almost 100% capacity in most of the high season (causing the prices to go up sharply). The Israir charters helped but a 2nd or even 3rd official carrier would be better for the route.

Anyway, both Israir and Arkia have applied for a license to operate scheduled flights on the NYC route and it seems that at least one of them if not both will get it in the next few weeks. LY objects because it will lose revenue but it will be great for everyone else including LY passengers and finally, the Israeli govt realizes that and will act to change the current situation.

For the regular passenger it would mean lower prices, greater competition meaning better service and variety of flight times. With DL pitching in as well we will have much better connecting options beyond the east coast.

In the past, LY have said that if Israir gets the license, they "may have" to fly on Shabbath to make more revenue. Arkia and Israir fly charters to Europe on Shabbath out of TLV but Israir's charter to/from JFK did not operate on Shabbath. This is going to be interesting ... :)

Since Israir already does fly to NY what will be the big difference?

Since Israir already does fly to NY what will be the big difference?

That charter flights are mainly used by low revenue passangers (holiday passangers). A scheduled flight will be attrective to business passangers as well. This will force LY to lower its margins on business tickets (business class & economy Q,S,M,Y)

Charters are much different from regular scheduled flights in their marketing options. A charter flight means the whole plane is chartered to one or many groups (usually travel agencies) that buy the seats in advance. Therefore, the marketing of the flight is usually limited to the travel agencies involved and the prices are pre-set.

Charter airlines cannot get into marking agreements with other airlines. Getting a regular license will allow Israir and/or Arkia to try and get into codesharing or other agreements with other airlines for connections beyond JFK.

it might also force LY to kick up its service and WEBSITE a notch.

it might also force LY to kick up its service and WEBSITE a notch.

You will simply not give up on the website, ah?

Anyway, compared to Israir and Arkia, LY has a state of the art website.

they're all crap.

*sigh*

Just my $0.02, but the smart move would really be for someone to ramp up the service out of ORD and cut a code-share/FF arrangement with either UA or AA.

It's a much easier and more convenient connection for the west, just as easy for Texas, and there's even the possibility of LatAm feed instead of via JFK/EWR. Any 767 has the legs for it.

And, maybe, the codeshare partner would consider sweetening the deal by agreeing to operate the flight 2x/week -- out of ORD on Thursday & Friday nights, out of TLV on Friday & Saturday -- to give the religious some "cover" that it's not REALLY Israir/Arkia who will burn in hell for all eternity! That works well for UA, who has more widebody capacity than AA; I don't know whether AA could/would spare a 763, and I dont remember whether the 762s now on LAX-JFK are ETOPS.

it might also force LY to kick up its service and WEBSITE a notch.

Two days ago I got a call from someone doing a survey for LY customer service. They wanted to know if I was happy with the response I'd gotten when I contacted them. I wasn't happy of course since it took them over a week to reply to the mail I sent to the super special elite gold level email address. When they did respond the answers they provided were not satisfactory. Anyway, besides that they asked a bunch of question for me to rate their customer service and then asked if there was anything else that I wanted to let them know. I did bring up their website and how difficult it was to find information and whatnot.

They should be serving both NYC and MIA/FLL. I'm actually somewhat surprised that nobody serves FLL as its close to MIA and Boca, since a lot of the population there is older, it might make sense for Arkia/Israir to move into MIA and have their associated travel agents sell the space as charter.

There was a suggestion by someone on a.net that CO could reasonably start CLE-TLV a couple times a week on a 762, which could probably do well both with cargo and pax from the midwest, with the large jewish base in CLE with short hops from ORD and CMH which also have large jewish populations.

You will simply not give up on the website, ah?

Anyway, compared to Israir and Arkia, LY has a state of the art website.You know what, I'm pretty tolerant of modest website design. That thing is so crappy, though, that it's indefensible. It would be indefensible for even the poorest, not-for-profit company with $3 to its name.

For an airline, though? And an Israeli company at that? It may be a little silly to say it, but it IS an embarassment.

And I'll say for the record, I don't hate EL AL the way entropy does. I've never once had bad or rude service. (For that, they can't hold a candle to my beloved Egged. :D ) And I do believe there's a value to the level of security they provide. The website's a joke, though.

I don't *hate* El Al. its tough love. IF they want to be the flag carrier of my favorite country, they had better kick it up a notch.
Aside from being hard to use in general, on their website you cannot even book flights from many of LY's cities or check reservations.

As I have said before, i'd re-do it for them for free.

I don't *hate* El Al. its tough love."You're not going to believe me, but this is hurting me more than it's hurting you." :D

I am actually flying LY ATH-TLV next week. I could not buy it on the web site.
A few weeks later I'm on TLV-IST which is actually on a 763.... looking forward to the C on that.

I am actually flying LY ATH-TLV next week. I could not buy it on the web site.
A few weeks later I'm on TLV-IST which is actually on a 763.... looking forward to the C on that.

I flew on the 763 a few weeks ago from LHR.
Its so much nicer then the normal old LY767-200's.
Feels far more specious, and newer, really makes you realize how the old 762's need to be dusked and the sooner the better.

I flew at the back, but C on the 763 is platinum (as it does the TLV-YYZ-LAX route most of the time) and looks very specious indeed but seats are different from ElAl's normal platinum seats and are leather.
I assume the aircraft was leased with these seats and ElAl haven’t changed them.

Enjoy your flight entropy

When I flew the 762 it was totally spacious. Probably something to do with the 30 total pax...

(TLV-VIE eqt. substitution).

Is it not a dumb move on the part of the Israeli government to restrict other Israeli airlines from entering the market years ago? In all seriousness, it got to the point where they were .....ing at LH having too many flights into TLV a couple of years ago, and being so protective of LY. Does anyone know what the percentage of US-Israel pax that transit via Europe is?

a lot because we are cheap jews.

The point before was to protect LY. However, the government is slowly moving to the position that regardless of what people spend on airfare, they will be spending money on food/lodging/stuff when they are IN Israel. The hotel association is clammoring to get the gov't to completely open the skies.

LH wanted and still wants to add more flights and hopefully they will be permitted soon.

Originally, Arkia was "Israel inland airways" and only flew domestic, but it became a charter operation internationally as well, as did Israir. LY was the flag carrier owned by the government. Now Borovich bought LY and thinks he bought the skies of Israel instead. Hopefully for all of us, it will end up making the government free up the skies instead :)

Israir got the license to be a designated carrier on the TLV-JFK route for 2 years. It was announced this morning (Monday). Israir have announced they are preparing to start a daily scheduled flight as soon as possible (compared to 3 weekly charter flights as they have today).

El Al (fighting to revese the decision) and Arkia (fighting to get a designated license as well) will probably go to the high courts (Bagatz) on this.

During the next 2 years, the market will be re-evaluated and at the end of this time period there will have to be another decision - whether to make the license permenant or not.

Israir got the license to be a designated carrier on the TLV-JFK route for 2 years. It was announced this morning (Monday). Israir have announced they are preparing to start a daily scheduled flight as soon as possible (compared to 3 weekly charter flights as they have today).

El Al (fighting to revese the decision) and Arkia (fighting to get a designated license as well) will probably go to the high courts (Bagatz) on this.

During the next 2 years, the market will be re-evaluated and at the end of this time period there will have to be another decision - whether to make the license permenant or not.What kind of legal argument does/will LY make to counter this?

What kind of legal argument does/will LY make to counter this?

They claim that before privatization, the govt "promised" them they will be the only designated carrier on the route and the public offering of the airline was based on this promise.

They claim that before privatization, the govt "promised" them they will be the only designated carrier on the route and the public offering of the airline was based on this promise.Forever?

Oy va voy.

They were "supposed" to be the sole designated carrier until pax traffic reached 10.7million pax a year, or their market share fell under 30%.

I haven't read the prospectus myself, but maybe I'll look it up on the TASE.
In any event, LY is a lousy airline, and perhaps this will help. I wish they could get something a la EOS/MaxJet on the route, that would be really nice.

Further, LY doesn't have the ability to add much more capacity, they seem stretched as it is, and they won't be getting new capacity for a while. Their 772 orders are to replace their crappy old 742s that are still (!) doing pax service.

Its the responsibility of the aviation ministry to act in the best interest of the country, not El Al. That would be, getting more tourists/business pax, more tourists = $$$$ once they are there. Which means getting additional foreign flights as well as additional capacity with Israeli airlines. Would be cool if Israir ordered some 787s, or a pair of 748s.

Just for some back of the envelope, 200 pax (767), 300 "full days worth", = 60,000 people a year for Israir's one daily flight should they make it that. If those people then spend $1000 (not unreasonable for 1-2 weeks, including lodging), that's $60 million into the economy from one flight!

They were "supposed" to be the sole designated carrier until pax traffic reached 10.7million pax a year, or their market share fell under 30%.

I haven't read the prospectus myself, but maybe I'll look it up on the TASE.
In any event, LY is a lousy airline, and perhaps this will help. I wish they could get something a la EOS/MaxJet on the route, that would be really nice.

Further, LY doesn't have the ability to add much more capacity, they seem stretched as it is, and they won't be getting new capacity for a while. Their 772 orders are to replace their crappy old 742s that are still (!) doing pax service.

Its the responsibility of the aviation ministry to act in the best interest of the country, not El Al. That would be, getting more tourists/business pax, more tourists = $$$$ once they are there. Which means getting additional foreign flights as well as additional capacity with Israeli airlines. Would be cool if Israir ordered some 787s, or a pair of 748s.

Just for some back of the envelope, 200 pax (767), 300 "full days worth", = 60,000 people a year for Israir's one daily flight should they make it that. If those people then spend $1000 (not unreasonable for 1-2 weeks, including lodging), that's $60 million into the economy from one flight!I've never had $60MM, but I feel like I spend it everytime I get off the plane. (37% of that's on shwarma)

I haven't read the prospectus myself, but maybe I'll look it up on the TASE.
In any event, LY is a lousy airline, and perhaps this will help. I wish they could get something a la EOS/MaxJet on the route, that would be really nice.


The "open skies" agreement between the US and Israeli governments states that ANY US based carrier can fly to Israel. If US Airways, Northwest, AA and UAL want to fly to TLV, they will be able to do it as soon as they are ready. So can MaxJet or any US based LCC. It's funny that El Al fights Israir and Arkia so hard when tomorrow an American carrier can announce a route to TLV and they would have nothing to do about it.


Its the responsibility of the aviation ministry to act in the best interest of the country, not El Al. That would be, getting more tourists/business pax, more tourists = $$$$ once they are there. Which means getting additional foreign flights as well as additional capacity with Israeli airlines. Would be cool if Israir ordered some 787s, or a pair of 748s.


The problem is that Israir needs a couple of planes yesterday, not in 3-4 years. They first need to establish themselves as a flag carrier before starting to dream of a real longhaul fleet.

Quite frankly after what happened at JFK and the "cover- up" I would be too scared to fly on Israir.

As to El Al I "love" that airline.

El Al have appealed to the high court (Bagatz) today (Sunday) against the Misister's decision to give Israir the license to be a 2nd carrier. Their appeal is based on a govt promise to be the only designated carrier on the route under several conditions which (they claim) are still relevant.

thankfully BAGATZ is generally not stupid, so hopefully they'll tell LY to stuff it.

thankfully BAGATZ is generally not stupid, so hopefully they'll tell LY to stuff it.

I've read the appeal. besides putting some stupid arguments in the appeal (there were 10,000 empty seats in July and August - They just forgot to say those seats were in Y fare) they have a case. Everything was written clearly in the prospectus. I think the best that can happen is that BAGATZ says the government can break their promise, but LY are eligible to compensation from the government. Although it may not be popular to give the Borovich family compensation, it will prevent the risk of damaging future privitizations and -much more important - can open other routes except NY to competition. This may finally lead to a real open skies agreement with the EU and a boost for tourism and Israeli businesses. The current situation where one has to pay more than $1,000 to go to europe for a day can't last much longer.

I've read the appeal. besides putting some stupid arguments in the appeal (there were 10,000 empty seats in July and August - They just forgot to say those seats were in Y fare) they have a case. Everything was written clearly in the prospectus. I think the best that can happen is that BAGATZ says the government can break their promise, but LY are eligible to compensation from the government. Although it may not be popular to give the Borovich family compensation, it will prevent the risk of damaging future privitizations and -much more important - can open other routes except NY to competition. This may finally lead to a real open skies agreement with the EU and a boost for tourism and Israeli businesses. The current situation where one has to pay more than $1,000 to go to europe for a day can't last much longer.If you're so inclined cohenyf (or anyone else) I'd be very curious to read a more detailed explanation of what LY was promised during the privatization, what the underlying logic was, and what their case is at this point. I'm very confused by the whole thing...?

If you're so inclined cohenyf (or anyone else) I'd be very curious to read a more detailed explanation of what LY was promised during the privatization, what the underlying logic was, and what their case is at this point. I'm very confused by the whole thing...?

The privatization of LY was done in a matter of weeks in a very quick move to seize a moment where to opportunity to do it was right. As it was done quickly, there were a lot of mistakes and wrong doings in the process ending up with a sale at bargain price with lots of restrictions such as the one discussed in the appeal. The whole airline was sold to the public for a total price of less than a single 747-400 that it holds.

An "open skies" agreement with the EU is indeed a great wish for 2006 and LY stands in the way to achieve it (again with those "promises"). A "strong" courts decision on this is well needed here.

If you're so inclined cohenyf (or anyone else) I'd be very curious to read a more detailed explanation of what LY was promised during the privatization, what the underlying logic was, and what their case is at this point. I'm very confused by the whole thing...?

Well, the situation at the beginning of 2003 was:

1. The Israeli stock market was very very low due to to hi-tech crisis, the war with the palenstinians, Iraq war etc.
2. Airlines were consolidating; others were going out of business. The airline business was in real bad shape
3. For security reasons, Israeli airlines cannot consolidate. They are under an oblifation to hold a minimal no. of a/c in order to secure air service to Israel even during war.
3. Israel is an end-point for flights. The number of transitting passangers in TLV is close to nothing
4. LY was losing ~$60M every year
5. Tourism to Israel did not exist; The business traffic was very low as well.

If I recall correctly, everyone thought that the IPO will fail. As a result, the government has made all those promises in order to secure the IPO.

Promises were:
1. No competition from Israeli carriers on routes LY holds until one of the 2 happens (i) total number of international traffic to Israel is more than 10.7 milliton (currently 8.5M) (ii) or until LY market share on the specific route is less than 30%

At the end of the day, LY was sold for pennies. I think it was for less than the 2005 consolidated profit. If I recall correcly, stock went up 300% in 3 days after the IPO

Today (Monday), Bagatz have rejected the initial appeal for an order to delay the permit of Israir until the overall Bagatz decision on the issue. This is a major win for Israir and the public.

So, given the points made by cohenyf, what are the legal underpinnings of Israir's case?

So, given the points made by cohenyf, what are the legal underpinnings of Israir's case?

Israir doesn't and cannot make a case here. It's El Al vs the Government of Israel as it is a Ministerial decision to give the license to Israir. The official statement from the legal advisers of the government say that they back up the decision in court.

now if only Israir will add EWR to their cities served, besides JFK. Both LY and CO need a good awakening

CO does fine.
(actually, CO EWR-TLV is gangbusters for them, they wish they had another 777 for it)

in a few months they are going to be rolling out a new special kosher menu from TLV too (in BF at least)

is it better than e-al non platinum seats?even those cradleseats arent enough for a 12 hour flight.the air canada buisness seats are awesome

Israir business is nothing more than a premium economy product.
El Al Business is much better. Comfort, and service wise.
If you are flying to YYZ or LAX, you get the new lie flat 767 seats.
I just sat in them this week, very very good!

Entropy you are right, usually LY gets all the rant on how much they charge on the NYC segments, has anyone seen the high prices CO are selling for?

I read in the paper today, CEO of CO Tel Aviv saying that Tel Aviv is one of CO's biggest money maker. They flew 28,052 ppl in December (No.1 in foreign airlines) and 316,151 in all of 2005. In December the average load was 90%.

BTW - If anyone is interested EL AL has a special offer to TLV from NYC, for $241 not including taxes ($449 total including) leaving Feb 5 and returning Feb 15/16.

Entropy you are right, usually LY gets all the rant on how much they charge on the NYC segments, has anyone seen the high prices CO are selling for?
CO seems to be the preferred carrier for business travelers who go to the US. This is no surprise because they are not a hack job of an airline.

I was in Houston this weekend with the CO brass, including their head route planner, and most of the VP's, the president and the CEO. They love TLV, they are somewhat amazed at how well it does. They told me they would add another flight but their aircraft are overstretched as it is.

They are also working on a new TLV based kosher menu, the CO Executive chef (Siggy) seemed very excited about it. I was tellling him about some of the good boutique israeli wines, and he is interested in bringing those on board. Interestingly, I mentioned to the head of foodservice ops that I've watched the crews filling out the alcohol consumption manifest and how little is used. He replied that he thought it was an oddity when he saw the report for the route.

BTW - If anyone is interested EL AL has a special offer to TLV from NYC, for $241 not including taxes ($449 total including) leaving Feb 5 and returning Feb 15/16.

Dang! That should be in the Mileage Run forum!

BTW - If anyone is interested EL AL has a special offer to TLV from NYC, for $241 not including taxes ($449 total including) leaving Feb 5 and returning Feb 15/16.

Outbound is soldout.

Update - there are 3 appeals waiting to be heard at Bagatz - one by El Al, one by the workers union of El Al and the third by the Knafayim group - the owners of ElAl that claim they would not have bought the airline without the promise to be the only carrier on the NYC route. All appeals will be discussed in Bagatz in about 2 weeks.

OTOH, the major consumer unions and organizations are appealing now for the right to participate in the hearings and support the minister's decision claiming it will be great for tourism, the economy and create additional employment opportunities.

It seem Israir is planning to have the a/c continue to Washington from NYC twice a week.
I would like to have seen them continue to LAS, MCO, or SFO.
I wasnt aware there was much need for a 2x weekly DC service.

BTW - It seems they are not going to succeed in getting a 777 or A340 now from second hand or lease market, they will probably get another 767-300 in the meantime.

Maybe they will be daring and order a 787-8/9 or an A350

its good to have service to DC.
It wouldn't make sense to do it to LAS or MCO, since AFAIK, they wouldn't have local traffic rights, they'd be flying those legs half empty.

If by Washington you mean DC, then keep in mind that Baltimore and several towns surrounding DC have a sizeable Jewish population.

It may be a way for them to show that they arent simply going after ElAl, but are willing to serve directly some markets that ElAl doesnt.

there are several US cities with large jewish populations, such as CLE, ORD and BWI that could support more service.

there are several US cities with large jewish populations, such as CLE, ORD and BWI that could support more service.That's the second or third time someone has mentioned CLE as a population center of Jews. What's the deal? Anyone know how many? I've not heard this before.

according to
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Cleveland.html

there are over 80,000.

US Jewish populations according to wikipedia.org: New York City (1,750,000), Miami (535,000), Los Angeles (490,000), Philadelphia (254,000), Chicago (248,000), San Francisco (210,000), Boston (208,000), and Washington DC (165,000). I would think that Philly and Boston would be good markets for O/D & connecting travel to TLV.

The jewish poplution is not the main factor for selecting a destination. There could be over a million Jews living in Cincinatti, but unless Israeli go there for business or pleasure or vice versa (Cincinatti going to TLV) there is no need for a flight. There also need to be in significant Israeli population in the city (NYC, MIA, LA, SFO area, CHI).
I guess in this case they are counting on the big jewish popuolation in Philedelphia and DC area. Wish them luck.

The jewish poplution is not the main factor for selecting a destination. There could be over a million Jews living in Cincinatti, but unless Israeli go there for business or pleasure or vice versa (Cincinatti going to TLV) there is no need for a flight. There also need to be in significant Israeli population in the city (NYC, MIA, LA, SFO area, CHI).
I guess in this case they are counting on the big jewish popuolation in Philedelphia and DC area. Wish them luck.


I would venture to guess that a large Jewish community has as much importance as a large Israeli community. The combination of the two comprise the target market. Even in New York, you may find a "large" Israeli population compared to other cities, but it is the overall Jewish population that drives the market. They're the ones who buy tickets to visit family and tour.

glenngpr,
That is exactly what I am saying, there needs to be a combination of factors. I was not aware the DC/Baltimore (maybe add Philedelphia) area has any other factor than the Jewish Population.

glenngpr,
That is exactly what I am saying, there needs to be a combination of factors. I was not aware the DC/Baltimore (maybe add Philedelphia) area has any other factor than the Jewish Population.

I think an area's Jewish population, coupled in with the ability to connect to other areas of the country, would make a lot of sense. Not everyone in Israel is destined to Brooklyn or Miami Beach. Conversely, there are many, many areas of the USA that have growing Jewish populations, or have technology-based business sectors that rely on Israeli suppliers. Examples are Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, San Diego, and yes, Cleveland, Chicago, even Las Vegas. If Israir ever worked out a code-share with US through Philly, they could compete with LY on a national (US) level.

I think an area's Jewish population, coupled in with the ability to connect to other areas of the country, would make a lot of sense. Not everyone in Israel is destined to Brooklyn or Miami Beach. Conversely, there are many, many areas of the USA that have growing Jewish populations, or have technology-based business sectors that rely on Israeli suppliers. Examples are Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, San Diego, and yes, Cleveland, Chicago, even Las Vegas. If Israir ever worked out a code-share with US through Philly, they could compete with LY on a national (US) level.

.... Thus it would make more sense to fly directly to an other destination (Not DC) or fly via NY to places like SFO, MCO or LAS.
I dont think Israir is flying to DC to have their pax connect to another airline from there.
I totaly agree they should look into codesharing with an airline like US or even UA. I think they should look at beating LY in reintroducing nonstop flights to ORD and have the flight codeshared with UA.

I believe Jewish population is a "nice to have" but not a main factor in deciding on a destination. DC can sell premium seats as a main business and political center. So can NYC, ORD and a few more US markets (but not many more).

All the major US airlines already have codeshare agreements that put TLV on their destination map. Israir does not bring any other added value to them so I can't see them going into such agreement. The only airline I can see benefiting is CO that need more seats and does not have the equipment to add additional flights. However, this would mean flying into EWR instead of JFK and for political reasons this will probably not happen.

The Bagatz hearing on all the appeals will be held on Feb 15th.

However, this would mean flying into EWR instead of JFK and for political reasons this will probably not happen.

What do you mean by this? What political reasons? and by whom?

El Al flies to both JFK and EWR, so why can't Israir, if they are allowed to stay in the marketplace?
Please explain

What do you mean by this? What political reasons? and by whom?

El Al flies to both JFK and EWR, so why can't Israir, if they are allowed to stay in the marketplace?
Please explain

Somehow, JFK is the premium route and EWR is 2nd in priority. In wanting to make a point, Israir will stick with JFK.

Why is it that neither LY nor Israir websites work with Firefox?

Why is it that neither LY nor Israir websites work with Firefox?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519322

Please don't start this discussion here as well. Let's stay on the topic.

JFK is served only by ElAl, while EWR is served by both ElAl & CO.

Also ElAl has alot more flights per week out of JFK then it does EWR. But Id love to see Israir also maybe send a flight to EWR if & when they decide to have a 2nd flight into the NY area on a daily or certain days of teh week basis.

according to Ynet.co.il, the Israel Hoteliers association is going to add their two cents worth to the bagatz hearing on wednesday. they are going to support the position of Israir & the transport ministry & state that LY's monopoly on direct flights to Israel limit tourism & revenue that would come into the country if the routes were openned up for competition

Any Word yet on the outcome ?

Somehow, JFK is the premium route and EWR is 2nd in priority. In wanting to make a point, Israir will stick with JFK.

Is JFK the premium route because of demographics?

Regardless, wouldn't CO be rather difficult with Israir if it had the desire to go to EWR instead of JFK?

(CO doesn't mind using even dirty tricks to try to delay/lock out other carriers that could compete with it on certain long-haul routes.)

More competition is a good thing in my eyes and the sooner this happens the better. Thus, I hope the obstacles to such competition are traversed sooner than later.

(CO doesn't mind using even dirty tricks to try to delay/lock out other carriers that could compete with it on certain long-haul routes.)

dirty tricks?

dirty tricks?

CO's attempts to keep out 9W

Is JFK the premium route because of demographics?


LY flagship flight is 001 TLV - JFK. It's been like this for as long as I can remember. For most Israelis - JFK means New York, EWR means somewhere around New York. That's mainly why it's the premium route.

Any Word yet on the outcome ?

Nothing that I heard of.

Nothing that I heard of.

Well, now it's officail. Bagatz said Israir can fly to new york. Let's hope it's the first of many steps to secure competition in Israeli aviation.

yay!!! go bagatz!

Israir got another 763ER.
they will start offering 6 x weekly from June 1.

Israir got another 763ER.
they will start offering 6 x weekly from June 1.


They will not fly on Saturday and will probably not have a real premium product. 2 bad choices.

They will not fly on Saturday and will probably not have a real premium product. 2 bad choices.

I think not flying on Shabbos is a No-Brainer!! At least as long as LY doesnt if they did they would probably not get any of the Religious to fly 'em and thats a Big share of the NY mkt.

Tower didnt have a Premium Product and was able to fill its planes on the JFK-TLV mkt and also didnt fly on Shabbos. Maybe using those Very Old 747s didnt help them. But I dont see Israir getting into the same bind as #1 its not a US carrier and wont be trying to develop all of the Domestic Routings that Tower did.

Tower was flying empty 747 all over the place, except to TLV that is or when ferrying US Troops around

I think not flying on Shabbos is a No-Brainer!! At least as long as LY doesnt if they did they would probably not get any of the Religious to fly 'em and thats a Big share of the NY mkt.

...



Many Brooklin folks prefer LH, BA and LX over LY so I don't believe it's such a no-brainer.

Tower was acting as an LCC on the route. If Israir takes this approach it will be great for the market (bring prices down) but will not atract many frequent fliers (hence create a nice constant travelers base). Sabina Biran was the manager of the Tel Aviv office of Tower Air so it's logical she will try to make Israir Tower #2. I hope they will stick with newer airplanes ... :D

Many Brooklin folks prefer LH, BA and LX over LY so I don't believe it's such a no-brainer.

Tower was acting as an LCC on the route. If Israir takes this approach it will be great for the market (bring prices down) but will not atract many frequent fliers (hence create a nice constant travelers base). Sabina Biran was the manager of the Tel Aviv office of Tower Air so it's logical she will try to make Israir Tower #2. I hope they will stick with newer airplanes ... :D


I dont think they prefer LH,BA, or LX. But that they are able to get those Carriers for less then what LY would charge and thats why they fly 'em along with Malev,Tarom & Turkish.

I do know of less then a handful that fly with BA or LX cause they they want to stop over in LHR or ZRH for a few days either for Biz, see family or Touring and see this way they can save on having to buy another tkt another time to get there. But LX will lose out as alot of those who flew LX did so either on Award Tkts from AA or in order to earn some AA credit, yes they could have also on LY but no EQMs and would have paid more for the tkt.

LH gets them cause they cash in their UA miles

I could be wrong but as long as Israir prices itself below not only LY but also the other Carriers much as Tower did, Im Positive the NY people will Flock to Israir, after all with all the Massive delays that plauged Tower and the NON-Constomer Service as well , NYers still Filled up Towers JFK-TLV flights. As well did Israelis flying in both Directions.

Another note about Shabbat - apart from LY that does not fly anywhere on Shabbat, Israir DOES FLY on Shabbat - both domestic routes to/from Eilat and international charter routes to Europe. The planes that are used for the NYC flights and will be "grounded" in TLV for 24 hours will probably fly to Europe, especially in the busy summer times.

Another note about Shabbat - apart from LY that does not fly anywhere on Shabbat, Israir DOES FLY on Shabbat - both domestic routes to/from Eilat and international charter routes to Europe. The planes that are used for the NYC flights and will be "grounded" in TLV for 24 hours will probably fly to Europe, especially in the busy summer times.

Then I guess one can say that ElAl also flies on the Shabbat, as it has/had a Charter Op called Sun d'Or I believe that flies on Shabbos.

Thats why I feel its simply best to close All of the Israeli AirSpace to ALL carriers, and to allow Take offs and Landings in accordance to LYs timing. So that CO cant have a flight leave to arrive right after Shabbos ends in Israel since LY cant do that. Hopefully I will see it in my Life Time, but Im not gonna hold my breathe.

why close airspace?

that's just silly.

there are more than religious jews in Israel. If LY doesn't want to run LY coded ops during shabbos that's up to them.

Simply cause its Shabbos , which is what makes the Jews different from everyone else. (Not saying Better Then, just Different then).

The Old question is/was: Is Israel a State of Jews or a Jewish State? if you say A State of Jews then it can be on any Land anywhere. If you say it belongs in Eretz Yisroel where it is since that is the Land that G-D gave to The Jewish People, then G-d gave Us alot more then just the Land.

G-D didnt give Moses a Menu from a Chinese Restaurant and told him to Pick 1 from Column A and 1 from Column B. It was a Package Deal.

Now the reason Id like to see No carriers allowed in/out is to even the playing field with Not Only LY but the other Israeli Carriers as well. Dont worry its Not gonna Happen any time soon, Unfortunately.

I hope EL AL starts to fly on Shabbat one day. There is no reason it shouldn't.

Another note about Shabbat - apart from LY that does not fly anywhere on Shabbat, Israir DOES FLY on Shabbat - both domestic routes to/from Eilat and international charter routes to Europe. The planes that are used for the NYC flights and will be "grounded" in TLV for 24 hours will probably fly to Europe, especially in the busy summer times.


The 767-300 that currently flies to NYC does TLV - BKK - TLV during Shabbat.

Thats why I feel its simply best to close All of the Israeli AirSpace to ALL carriers, and to allow Take offs and Landings in accordance to LYs timing. So that CO cant have a flight leave to arrive right after Shabbos ends in Israel since LY cant do that. Hopefully I will see it in my Life Time, but Im not gonna hold my breathe.


The Old question is/was: Is Israel a State of Jews or a Jewish State? if you say A State of Jews then it can be on any Land anywhere. If you say it belongs in Eretz Yisroel where it is since that is the Land that G-D gave to The Jewish People, then G-d gave Us alot more then just the Land.

G-D didnt give Moses a Menu from a Chinese Restaurant and told him to Pick 1 from Column A and 1 from Column B. It was a Package Deal.

Now the reason Id like to see No carriers allowed in/out is to even the playing field with Not Only LY but the other Israeli Carriers as well. Dont worry its Not gonna Happen any time soon, Unfortunately.

Israel is the land of the Jews. That means all the jews, not just the ultra orthodox jews. The majority of the people that live in Israel respect the Jewish religion and the Shabbat in their own way but do drive, fly, hang out and do other things. That DOES NOT make them more or less Jewish than you and me.

And, by the way, it's not true that LY cannot fly on Shabbat. It's a private airline and they can do whatever they want to. It's their choice not to fly. Forcing the competition to do the same would take Israel into darker territories more like Iran than a modern country.

Israel is The Jewish State. All jews. Not just the ultra orthodox. It was the secular jews who founded and defended (and continue to defend) the state.

LY doesn't fly on shabbat because it doesn't want to lose the ultra-orthodox business which was threateneed when they considered it before.

This is an OMNI thread waiting to burst out in all its glory. :D

Anyone wanna duke it out???

Israel is The Jewish State. All jews. Not just the ultra orthodox. It was the secular jews who founded and defended (and continue to defend) the state.

LY doesn't fly on shabbat because it doesn't want to lose the ultra-orthodox business which was threateneed when they considered it before.

many Ultra Orthodox were members of The Irgun and Lehi and fought and died back in 1948, The 1929 Hevron riots when the Arabs slaughtered the Jews (no such thing as an Israeli in '29) were Religious. BTW the British Hung both Religious and Non-Relgious Members of The Irgun & Lehi.

Yes Secular Jews Founded the State along with Religious ones. But the Secular Jews didnt establish Eretz Yisroel, that G-D gave to the Jewish Nation (People and not The Israeli people) BTW you have to include Millions of Non-Jews when you speak about Israelis since there are Muslim and Christian Arabs as well as a TON of Russians who are not Jewish but are Israelis.

To Me at least if you remove Religion from everything then what one is left with is simply a Hebrew speaking Portugal. Which is like a Kosher-Style Deli that serves Cheese Burgers ( with the Cheese being dairy and the Meat being Beef) it just makes no sense to me at all.

So therefore I think that any and all Israeli Flag Carriers shouldnt fly on Shabbos, and that BG should be closed as well to all Carriers, so that the Israeli Flag Carriers wont be at a disadvantage.

Lebanon was set up as a Christian Arab State, we see how far that went and what they had to go thru. As the Non-Jewish population of Israel steadily increases Israel will be going down the EXACT same route that Lebanon did.

So, anyone know what the prices are going to be for Israir to JFK this summer?

Seriously, please take the discussion of the character of the state of Israel to OMNI where I can join in full force. Ideally before I go to the voting booth in 28 days so I can get really riled p. :D Let's get this thread back to Israir before it gets closed.

Sabina says 10-15% lower. so, still a lot!

You just had to know that a bunch of us couldn't just sit around and talk about air travel. Eventually, we'd have to start fighting about something. :D


An old joke tells the story of a Jew stranded for many years on a deserted island. When he was finally rescued, he showed off his many accomplishments on the island — including the construction of two synagogues.

'But why two of them?' asked his rescuers. 'This one is the shul that I attend', the Jew replied. 'The other is the shul I refuse to step foot in.' (http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/ravkook/HAAZINU58.htm)

[QUOTE=Jakebeth]You just had to know that a bunch of us couldn't just sit around and talk about air travel. Eventually, we'd have to start fighting about something. :D

You mean someone really thought that its possible to discuss anything regarding Israel w/o getting into either a Polictical or Religious discussion, :rolleyes: If I didnt Im sure they wouldnt let me in when I arrive at TLV on next Mon morning.

Im lookin forward as usual to being asked for the purpose of my visit, since I always answer"I collect the Entry & Exit Stamps that you guys put into my Passport".

Mind you it works with me as long as I dont have a new Passport, Why? cause the person behind the Counter thinks Im NUTS till they start looking for a place to stamp my Passport and keeps flipping thru the pages passing you guessed it Tons of Entry & Exit stamps from Israel. Then they usually laugh and welcome me back.

forward as usual to being asked for the purpose of my visit,

i've always wondered how they would respond if I told them "sex".... though last time thru I was being escorted by the shabak so it would not have been opportune...

You mean someone really thought that its possible to discuss anything regarding Israel w/o getting into either a Polictical or Religious discussion..

Not really, I just want to keep the thread from getting closed. :)

i've always wondered how they would respond if I told them "sex".... though last time thru I was being escorted by the shabak so it would not have been opportune...

Do tell...we can start a incoming to Israel security thread. :)

i've always wondered how they would respond if I told them "sex".... though last time thru I was being escorted by the shabak so it would not have been opportune...So you think it would be a mistake to tell them that you're bringing in electronics purchased abroad with no VAT for your family and friends?

We can argue about Shabbat/Shabbos/Shabbes and it's implications on Israel forever and will probably never agree, but I do agree with yosithezet - lets try to stay on the topic.

I hope EL AL starts to fly on Shabbat one day. There is no reason it shouldn't.
I've heard that if LY began flying ops on Sabbath, they would effectively have to almost double their flight/cabin crew personel, as tey would need to essentially schedule more days off for all the crew, whereas now the day & a half (friday-saterday) is effectively this time off built in.
also, apperantly even though LY does not fly on Sabbath, they do infact operate maintainance crews & do allot of the needed routine maintainance work while the planes are on the ground (on Sabbath).

I think there are infact operational reasons that LY will not start flying on Sabbath

Do tell...we can start a incoming to Israel security thread

its not for a public discussion. :)

its not for a public discussion. :)We could start one, but then we'd have to kill each other.

or *they* would.

Israir have announced they are ready to start on May 1st - 5 or 6 weekly flights on the 2 leased 767s. They are also trying to get a deal with either Boeing or Airbus for a long term permanent fleet of long haul planes.

I would love to see them get A330 for the route.