Independence Air iClub - Chapter 11 confirmed for Independence

http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...ANSPORT-FLYI-BANKRUPTCY-URGENT.XML


NEW YORK, Nov 7 (Reuters) - FLYi, Inc. (FLYI.O: Quote, Profile, Research), parent of low-fare carrier Independence Air, on Monday said it and its subsidiaries filed to restructure aircraft leases and other obligations under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.

The company also said it would request court approval to engage in a formal court-supervised auction process to seek assistance to continue its operations.

Press Release Source: FLYi, Inc.


FLYi, Inc. Files for Voluntary Chapter 11 Reorganization
Monday November 7, 6:23 am ET
- Independence Air To Continue Flying And Serving Customers
- Auction Process Announced For Potential Investors Or Purchasers


DULLES, Va., Nov. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- FLYi, Inc., parent of low-fare airline Independence Air, today announced that FLYi, Inc. and its subsidiaries (the "company") including Independence Air, have filed voluntary petitions for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code in order to restructure the company's aircraft leases and other obligations to achieve necessary cost savings.

The company also announced it will request court approval to engage in a formal court-supervised auction process to seek outside investor(s) or purchaser(s) it needs to continue its operations. If the process is successful, it is expected to be concluded within the next sixty days. Those who have expressed interest during previous discussions, as well as new parties, will be invited to present their bids. Bidders will be permitted to demonstrate their interest in investing in the company, or to bid on all or portions of the company's assets. The company currently anticipates that it has the financial resources to fund its obligations-including the payment of employee wages and benefits-during the process.

As it undertakes the auction process, Independence Air plans to continue serving customers, and to continue its flight schedules in the ordinary course of business. The company plans to honor reservations and tickets on Independence Air and to allow its 1,000,000+ iCLUB(SM) members to continue to accrue and redeem points on the airline with no restrictions. The company has no plans to make any additional changes to its operating schedule or route map of destinations at this time. Independence Air now offers approximately 220 daily departures to 36 destinations.

"After careful consideration, we have concluded that a court-supervised restructuring will allow us to complete our cost-savings initiatives while seeking outside investors or purchasers, and represents the best solution for Independence Air, our customers, employees, creditors and the communities we serve," said Kerry Skeen, Chairman and CEO of FLYi, Inc.

He added, "Since the launch of Independence Air almost 18 months ago, our employees have helped us achieve a remarkable degree of customer service success and brand recognition while operating in what has been described as the most challenging economic environment in airline industry history, including record high fuel prices and extreme revenue weakness. These circumstances have prevented us-and virtually all U.S. airlines-from meeting financial goals. We have already reduced operating costs by undertaking a comprehensive operational restructuring. We will continue that effort and move quickly to use the tools of the Chapter 11 process to implement other changes that will allow us to achieve an even more competitive cost structure to make us more attractive to potential investors or purchasers."

As part of this cost-cutting effort, the company has announced it is undertaking a process aimed at company-wide wage reductions. Taking a leadership role, CEO Kerry Skeen has agreed to an immediate 25% salary reduction on top of a 15% cut earlier this year. President and Chief Operating Officer Tom Moore will take a 20% cut, on top of an earlier 10% reduction. Management and other salaried employees will be subject to an immediate 5% pay reduction. The company has been engaging the leaders of its unionized work groups-pilots, flight attendants and mechanics-in an effort to enact changes to wage rates and work rules. It is anticipated that an announcement on a tentative agreement with both the flight attendants (AFA) and mechanics (AMFA) will be released shortly.

Mr. Skeen concluded, "We want to once again offer our sincere thanks to the seven million passengers who have flown with us so far. Since we launched last summer, we have built a brand that truly stands for something -- a very different style of service -- and our customers have been more than generous in their praise of our people. As we work behind the scenes to address the company's financial situation, we thank you for your continued support of Independence Air at Washington Dulles and in all the communities we serve. "

In conjunction with today's filing, Independence Air filed a variety of "first day motions" to help ensure a smooth transition into the Chapter 11 reorganization case. During the auction process, vendors, suppliers and other business partners will be paid under normal terms for goods and services provided during the reorganization.

The company filed its petitions in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware. The company's petitions listed assets of approximately $378.5 million and liabilities of approximately $455.4 million as of September 30, 2005. Unrestricted cash as of the day of filing is $24.0 million.

Miller Buckfire and Co., LLC and ENA Advisors have been retained as the company's financial advisors and Jones Day has been retained as restructuring counsel. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP serves as the company's corporate counsel.

All FLYi, Inc. shareholders are advised that the likely outcome of the company's Chapter 11 case is the cancellation of the company's existing common stock without consideration, in which case FLYi stock would have no value. FLYi stock is highly speculative and the company urges investors to use extreme caution in decisions about the stock.

Independence Air began low-fare service from its hub at Washington Dulles International Airport on June 16, 2004, and has served over seven million passengers to date. The company first began commercial air service on December 15, 1989, and operated previously as Atlantic Coast Airlines.

Independence Air is the low-fare airline that makes travel fast and easy for its customers with a customer first attitude, innovative thinking and a willingness to challenge the status quo.

Independence Air, FLYi, the "i" logo mark, FLYi.com, iCLUB and Tender Loving Service are service marks of Independence Air, Inc.

This press release contains forward-looking statements and is made as of November 7, 2005, and the company undertakes no obligation to update its disclosures, whether as a result of developments in its efforts, or as a result of any other new information, future events, changed expectations or otherwise, prior to its next required filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks, uncertainties, assumptions and other factors that may cause the actual results of the company to be materially different from those reflected in such forward-looking statements. Such risks and uncertainties include, among others: the ability of the company to continue as a going concern; factors that could impact the company's ability to complete a court-supervised auction process that is necessary for the company to continue operations, including the ability to attract potential investors or acquirers through the court-supervised auction process, to obtain favorable bids from such potential investors or acquirers and to reach definitive agreement with one or more potential investors or with a potential acquirer and to obtain requisite court approval for any such agreement; the action of the company's debt holders and other creditors to the company's bankruptcy proceeding and to the company's auction process; factors that could affect the company's ability to maintain operations during its bankruptcy proceeding, including the reaction of customers, suppliers and competitors to the company's bankruptcy proceeding; the ability to obtain improved wage rates and work rules with the company's unionized work groups; the ability to maintain and improve yield with a reduced network reflected in the company's current flight schedule; the ability to successfully obtain revised terms from lessors for aircraft the company intends to continue operating; the ability to manage inventory to maximize yield; the effects of high fuel prices on the company's costs, and the availability of fuel; the ability to adjust operations, realize on internal or external sources of liquidity or otherwise address the company's financial obligations; the costs of returning aircraft and related records to lessors for aircraft that are rejected by the company; the ability to successfully hire, train and retain employees; the seasonality of air travel; and general economic and industry conditions, any of which may impact Independence Air or the company, its aircraft manufacturers and its other suppliers in ways that the company is not currently able to predict. Certain of these and other risk factors are more fully disclosed under "Management's Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations", "Risk Factors Affecting the Company", and "Risk Factors Affecting the Airline Industry" in the company's Form 10-K/A for the year ended December 31, 2004 and Form 10-Q for the quarter ended June 30, 2005.




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Source: FLYi, Inc.

Is there ANY hope? What will most realistically happen? I'd hate to see them totallly go away. IDE was GREAT for GSP! :(

I just read the AP story. Since they're already talking about an auction, it looks like they don't expect to emerge.

I just read the AP story. Since they're already talking about an auction, it looks like they don't expect to emerge.

Reuters news story says:

the auction is expected to take place within 60 days, the airline said, adding that it expects to have enough financial resources to fund its obligations during that time, including paying its employees.

Sorry to see them go but it was doomed from Day 1.

This sucks. Looks like IAD fares are headed back up again.

On another note: I've got some flights booked on DH for December and January. Should I worry? I had the thought to book flights on UA to BOS but the 60 day window thing caught my eye. Three of my flights fall inside that window and one outside of it. My initial feeling is that they will probably still be flying but .... you never know.

Suggestions?

The new bankruptcy laws don't really allow for much else other than auction. The local news said they were hoping for an investor or buyer within next two months - not sure what the prospects really are for either option.

I'm amazed they waited so long to do this.

I'm amazed they waited so long to do this.


Just another indication of how incompetent management is. They were absolutely stupid not to file before Oct. 17th. Good riddance, at this point in time the last thing the airline industry needs is a stupid competitor. The other airlines have enough problems without worrying about what what some suicidal competitor is going to try next.

I'm sorry for the employees but agree this was a doomed and irrational experiment from the outset. I've been saying so since before they launched.

It's incredibly stupid and irresponsible to blow millions of dollars and fool with thousands of employees' lives like this just to stick it to UA, which I still think was the main motivator for Indy.

I've got some flights booked on DH for December and January. Should I worry? My initial feeling is that they will probably still be flying but .... you never know.

Suggestions?

I think you'll be fine for December but all bets are off for January. I hope you paid with a credit card.

I think you'll be fine for December but all bets are off for January. I hope you paid with a credit card.

I'd make other plans, even for the December flights. But maybe mid doesn't mind the very real possibility of trying to fly standby during December if FlyI shuts down. Or the expense of buying full Y walkup fares for those flights. Me - I'd rather plan now and still get some advance purchase fares on an airline like WN, that is guaranteed to still be flying, as opposed to one that hopes to still be flying. ;)

I'm sorry for the employees but agree this was a doomed and irrational experiment from the outset. I've been saying so since before they launched.

It's incredibly stupid and irresponsible to blow millions of dollars and fool with thousands of employees' lives like this just to stick it to UA, which I still think was the main motivator for Indy.

Bear,

As a former employee of ACA (pre-FlyI), I've followed the situation very very closely. As poor as this business plan may have been, hanging in there with UA was just plain stupid. The new contract that UA wanted ACA to sign guaranteed no future relationship with UA. Yes, the only guarantee in aviation is that there are no guarantees, but the new contract would have allowed to drop ACA at UA's whim. They would have done the same thing to ACA that they did with Air Wis. As I may have mentioned elsewhere, ACA had the choiice of getting shot standing still or getting shot while running away. They ran. They are just as dead, but at least they gave it a fighting chance. The old contract was certain death. Given that, what other possible situation would you have envisioned? Interestingly enough, had UA gone under, I had visions of Air Wis, ACA, and SkyWest forming a "new" UA. All it would take is for somebody to operate narrowbodies. Funny how ACA/FlyI did end up with Airbusses.

It's funny that there is actually some sympathy for employees on this board. On every other forum here, everybody expects the employees to bend over backwards to make financial sacrifices for the airline they work for, and get upset when the employees threaten to strike over further wage reductions.

Honestly, there was NO fighting chance for Indy Air - the company screwed up bigtime at literally every turn, from marketing to pricing to distribution to scheduling to fleet.

It's funny that there is actually some sympathy for employees on this board. On every other forum here, everybody expects the employees to bend over backwards to make financial sacrifices for the airline they work for, and get upset when the employees threaten to strike over further wage reductions.

It does not come as a surprise to me. On the 3 occasions I flew FlyI since its inception, every single employee I encountered surprised me with a great smile, great attitude, and in the case of the gate agent in Columbus who met me at security (when I was a "runner") so she could carry my stuff to help me get to the gate faster, service way above and beyond the call. It was amazing to me that these were the same people I'd encounter on UX/ACA flights.

... what other possible situation would you have envisioned? Interestingly enough, had UA gone under, I had visions of Air Wis, ACA, and SkyWest forming a "new" UA. Hi DHAST: If ACA knew this whole thing was doomstruck before they set out, but merely resolved to "get shot while running away," I dunno which is worse -- that, or really believing they could make Indy go. Had I run the zoo I would have looked for another, non-UA hookup to achieve some feed and instant critical mass, maybe with F9, which would've been geographically complementary and a ballpark cost-structure fit.
It's funny that there is actually some sympathy for employees on this board. On every other forum here, everybody expects the employees to bend over backwards to make financial sacrifices for the airline they work for, and get upset when the employees threaten to strike over further wage reductions. I think the perception is that the Indy frontliners really, really tried. And it paid off; Indy's in the top five in today's Zagat airline survey, while the airlines we love to hate (DL, UA, US, NW) all finished out of the top ten. So it's heartbreaking, yes. If the employees were led to believe this could/world work when managers knew it couldn't, then this was the airline world's equivalent of Gallipoli -- it's just awful.

So who's the most logical carrier to gobble up their gates and routes?

So who's the most logical carrier to gobble up their gates and routes?
I'm betting Jet Blue will start up IAD-BOS with their new E-190's if FLYi goes under.

Remember, this is not a Chapter 7 filing. This is still a chapter 11 filing, with an auction meant to attract investors.... (granted, if no investors are found it could very quickly turn into a chapter 7 type liquidation). If the board really thought that there were no interested investors they could have filed Chapter 7 long ago, but the fact is that any investor interested in DH would have probably been waiting for the Chapter 11 filing so that they didn't have to inherit the high cost structure that has been the killer for DH so far. There is a reason this was Chapter 11 and not 7. As it stands now, DH can dump most or all of their costly CRJs, trim or terminate costly labor agreements, and renegotiate their vendor contracts... if all that happens (which you can bet it is already in the works), DH just might find those investors they need to continue flying. Anyway, the bid for investment will all be wrapped up in 60 days, so by Jan 7 we should know one way or another.

If the board really thought that there were no interested investors they could have filed Chapter 7 long ago, but the fact is that any investor interested in DH would have probably been waiting for the Chapter 11 filing so that they didn't have to inherit the high cost structure that has been the killer for DH so far.


I beg to differ. DH's management (and board) have proven themselves completely incompetent. Why didn't they file CHapter 11 3 weeks ago if, in fact, an investor would want them to file Chapter 11 and lower their costs? If their is an investor waiting in the wings why not do a pre packaged Chapter 11 filing and expedite the process?

Let's face it, DH is living on barrowed time and management is hanging on by their fingernails hoping that someone comes along so they can safe at least some face. Anything more optimistic than that is just wishful thinking.

Lets not forget that DH also chose a course that they knew would cost them their DL business also. Also lets not forget that DH used every technique they could to keep Mesa from acquiring them at the start of this little adventure (to then go back to work for UA BTW!).

How many DH shareholder's wish they would have taken that deal now...

DH's entire (unstated, of course) business plan was built on UA liquidating or at least abandoning IAD. oops.

And, in a very unusual stance for me I feel bad for DH's employees who bought into what these joker's tried to pull off (again, IMHO) mainly because of spite against UA mixed in with a little too much of their own pride.

From all appearances DH employees have done a good job and deserved much better leadership.

If there was an angel investor in the works they would have sponsored the Ch 11 filing and provided some Debtor In Possession money. With NO DIP and no mention of an Angel Investor, my guess is that the company will be Ch7 near the end of the sixty days.

Also, for the poster above who has tickets in December. If DH cannot remain current with their expenses after today, they will be immediately pushed into Ch 7. While their current cash projection is good for the next 60 days, the rollercoaster ride called jet fuel could sink them in a matter of weeks. Further trouble could be customers abandoning the airline and flying the competition. The music is about end and people who don't have a seat will be left with nothing. Airlines generally don't become liquidated because of high costs, it is passenger abandonment that does them in. Just some food for thought, it's your money to gamble with.

Sad to see the airline go down this road. I was impressed by the company's IAD operation. Unfortunately my travel patterns wouldn't be conducive to flying on DH.

I hope the employees can land on their feet. Perhaps its time for employees to find that the best way be in the airline industry is to get a good job outside the industry, then collect points and look for deals to get the travel addiction filled.

Remember, this is not a Chapter 7 filing. This is still a chapter 11 filing, with an auction meant to attract investors.... (granted, if no investors are found it could very quickly turn into a chapter 7 type liquidation). If the board really thought that there were no interested investors they could have filed Chapter 7 long ago, but the fact is that any investor interested in DH would have probably been waiting for the Chapter 11 filing so that they didn't have to inherit the high cost structure that has been the killer for DH so far. There is a reason this was Chapter 11 and not 7. As it stands now, DH can dump most or all of their costly CRJs, trim or terminate costly labor agreements, and renegotiate their vendor contracts... if all that happens (which you can bet it is already in the works), DH just might find those investors they need to continue flying. Anyway, the bid for investment will all be wrapped up in 60 days, so by Jan 7 we should know one way or another.

The auction is meant to hawk anything that can be sold with an operating enterprise premium attached to it before the entrerprise implodes altogether. It is not necessary to file Chapter 7 and shut down immediately in order to liquidate - DH has essentially opted for a Chapter 11 liquidation to attempt to maximize return to stakeholders while remaining an operating concern until the very end.

So who's the most logical carrier to gobble up their gates and routes?

Midwest Airlines (YX) could switch its nonstops from MCI, MKE, and Omaha from National to Dulles (or just add a route), which would connect Upper Midwest/Kansas to FlyI's New England/Old South.

They could share gates/counters/employees at Hartford, Boston, LGA, Newark, Pittsburgh, Columbus, San Francisco, LAS, ATL, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Myers, Nashville.

PIT would have nonstop to MKE, MCI, IAD, and connections to over 50 cities from one airline.

what would be the point of this???? YX makes money specifically becauae the MKE, MCI, OMA flights attract high yield business travelers specifically flying into DCA. those are (for the most part) routes entirely dependent on o&d travelers (especially OMA and MCI), not bargain seekers seeking the cheapest possible route from the midwest to the northeast....


Midwest Airlines (YX) could switch its nonstops from MCI, MKE, and Omaha from National to Dulles (or just add a route), which would connect Upper Midwest/Kansas to FlyI's New England/Old South.

They could share gates/counters/employees at Hartford, Boston, LGA, Newark, Pittsburgh, Columbus, San Francisco, LAS, ATL, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Myers, Nashville.

PIT would have nonstop to MKE, MCI, IAD, and connections to over 50 cities from one airline.

Could be they are hoping for the impending relaxed foreign shareholding rules to kick-in.

http://www.eyefortravel.com/index.asp?news=48528

Could be they are hoping for the impending relaxed foreign shareholding rules to kick-in.

http://www.eyefortravel.com/index.asp?news=48528


What foreign carrier aside from easyJet or Ryanair is going to want their planes? Can you see LH or BA passengers connecting to an RJ? If a foreign carrier is going to make an investment in a US carrier its going to be within an alliance such as LH putting money into UA or BA putting money into AA.

Someone pointed out the possibility of VS looking at DH. I think thats implausible because the only thing they would be after is their operating certificate, a fouple of gates and maybe the A319's. Why not just wait for the fire sale and bid on those assets and let someone else deal with disposing of everything else?

What foreign carrier aside from easyJet or Ryanair is going to want their planes?

I think easyJet and Ryanair would be the last possible carriers to want DH's RJ's. easyJet and Ryanair both fly single-type fleets (319's and 737's respectively) and neither has a single high CASM RJ in the fleet. I think even WN would be in line before eastJet and Ryanair.

Can you see LH or BA passengers connecting to an RJ?

I believe that LH and BA passengers quite often connect to RJ's for short connections in Europe. Can you imagine Ryanair passengers connecting onto an RJ? Even DH wasn't insane enough to sell 0.99 euro tickets on RJ's.

I think easyJet and Ryanair would be the last possible carriers to want DH's RJ's. easyJet and Ryanair both fly single-type fleets (319's and 737's respectively) and neither has a single high CASM RJ in the fleet. I think even WN would be in line before eastJet and Ryanair.



I believe that LH and BA passengers quite often connect to RJ's for short connections in Europe. Can you imagine Ryanair passengers connecting onto an RJ? Even DH wasn't insane enough to sell 0.99 euro tickets on RJ's.


I made the Ryanair/easyJet comment with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I wasn't so much commenting about the type of planes they fly but the caliber of customer they serve. Ryanair, easyJet and DH all attract bottom of the barrel. A BA or LH Buisness class or First class customer may connect to an RJ if the have no other choice but there is no way BA or LH would buy such aircraft because their premium customers would never tolorate it. RJs are an aircraft of last resort.

What foreign carrier aside from easyJet or Ryanair is going to want their planes? Can you see LH or BA passengers connecting to an RJ? If a foreign carrier is going to make an investment in a US carrier its going to be within an alliance such as LH putting money into UA or BA putting money into AA.

AC/Jazz could be a possibility. As part of their investment in US, they've already agreed that any additional US Express flights to Canada will be flown by Jazz. But if Jazz could start operating as US Exp in the States, I'm sure they'd much rather do that. This would be an easy way in - purchase a US operating certificate and have the CRJs all lined up and ready to go.

This is tailor made for Jet Blue to take over their routes if Flyi liquidates.

Remember, this is not a Chapter 7 filing. This is still a chapter 11 filing, with an auction meant to attract investors.... (granted, if no investors are found it could very quickly turn into a chapter 7 type liquidation). If the board really thought that there were no interested investors they could have filed Chapter 7 long ago, but the fact is that any investor interested in DH would have probably been waiting for the Chapter 11 filing so that they didn't have to inherit the high cost structure that has been the killer for DH so far. There is a reason this was Chapter 11 and not 7. As it stands now, DH can dump most or all of their costly CRJs, trim or terminate costly labor agreements, and renegotiate their vendor contracts... if all that happens (which you can bet it is already in the works), DH just might find those investors they need to continue flying. Anyway, the bid for investment will all be wrapped up in 60 days, so by Jan 7 we should know one way or another.

Spampurse,

DH *does not* have any costly labor agreements that will get shed in Ch 11. They already have a pay scale that is representative of a regional airline (IOW, the employees are already paid like crap) and the pilots have no pension. So, no savings there.

The *only* thing that I think will keep them flying (not "save" them, but keep them flying) is the fact that there is an excess of CRJ's in the market, and the lessors may figure it is best just to get what they can from DH as opposed to parking them or trying to put them on the open market. As long as DH pays their fuel bill and the lessors can't dump the planes elsewhere, they will still fly.

This is tailor made for Jet Blue to take over their routes if Flyi liquidates.

Really? I'm not so sure. DH has gutted so much of their route structure that I'm not even sure what's left. You'd think if there was anything worthwhile, that B6 would have already moved in for the kill.

How is Independence Air going to be able to hold on to their staff when it appears likely that in 90 days (or less) they will all be out of work. Without much of a future at their current employer, I would expect many employees will quit, call in sick, stop trying, or delay or cancel flights without much fear.

What do you think?

How is Independence Air going to be able to hold on to their staff when it appears likely that in 90 days (or less) they will all be out of work. Without much of a future at their current employer, I would expect many employees will quit, call in sick, stop trying, or delay or cancel flights without much fear.

What do you think?

I can't speak for everyone in the company but I can speak for myself. We all pretty much new that this was coming! If I were to jump ship I would have awhile ago when I saw the writing on the wall, instead of hanging in there like a lot of other people. We won't go down without a fight!

Everything I read blames fuel costs. Hello! DH would have lost money in Q2 if fuel were free.

Can someone get 12 A319s, an operating cert, a FF database, gates and employees cheaper from this 'auction' than after a liquidation?

DH's A319 engines don't match the ones on F9's Airbii. Maybe Ted will buy them. RAR!

AC/Jazz could be a possibility. As part of their investment in US, they've already agreed that any additional US Express flights to Canada will be flown by Jazz. But if Jazz could start operating as US Exp in the States, I'm sure they'd much rather do that. This would be an easy way in - purchase a US operating certificate and have the CRJs all lined up and ready to go.


But Jazz/AC is a Foreign entity and can not control/fly soley within the US market. They can do all the trans boder flying they want but the can't go getween IAD and LGA for example. THAT WOULD BE CABATOGE. which is illegal.

And the "impending" changes in foreign ownership rules are not going to change in time, if at at all, for FlyI's benefit.

DC

We won't go down without a fight!


:confused: What are you going to fight for? Are you going to put a gun to the head of some investor and say "you better put money into this company?" The business model isn't broken, it never was a viable business model to begin with!

I think you'll be fine for December but all bets are off for January. I hope you paid with a credit card.

But of course!

that is a lot of gate slots being given up when DH goes under. personally, i would like to see UA take over A and get rid of the G concourse. could you see southwest coming into IAD? i mean, that's more than half the gates at the B concourse that would be freed up. interesting for sure.

that is a lot of gate slots being given up when DH goes under. personally, i would like to see UA take over A and get rid of the G concourse. could you see southwest coming into IAD? i mean, that's more than half the gates at the B concourse that would be freed up. interesting for sure.
Unlikely to see Southwest at IAD when they can still grow at BWI. The more likely candidate for growth at IAD is JetBlue. B6 clearly wanted to grow at IAD from the beginning but put those plans on hold after Independence came in and lowered the yields. Once FlyI liquidates, I would expect to see B6 come in with some Embraers to "connect the dots" from IAD.

Why would b6 want embraers? Are they using those somewhere else? I thought their plan had a single plane type

:confused: What are you going to fight for? Are you going to put a gun to the head of some investor and say "you better put money into this company?" The business model isn't broken, it never was a viable business model to begin with!

What I meant by my statement of we won't go down without a fight is obvious we can't force somebody to invest in us, but I will continue to give 110% to my job and operate as businnes as usual! I'm going to trya and continue to produce a product that is attractive to our customers and hopefully to investors.

Why would b6 want embraers? Are they using those somewhere else? I thought their plan had a single plane type

For some unexplained reason, Neeleman ordered 100 EMB-190s which seat about 100 people - the first one just went into service (today?). Apparently he thinks he can buck the conventional wisdom that says a low-cost carrier should stick to a single fleet type to minimize complexity and expense. Then again, he sold Morris Air to WN for a pile of money, so maybe he knows what he is doing. :)

What I meant by my statement of we won't go down without a fight is obvious we can't force somebody to invest in us, but I will continue to give 110% to my job and operate as businnes as usual! I'm going to trya and continue to produce a product that is attractive to our customers and hopefully to investors.


^ I admire your attitude. The world would be a better place if more people had that outlook. The airline industry, as a whole, would be in a lot better shape if more people had your outlook. I apologize if my initial post seemed aggressive, I am so used to airline emplyees fighting to hold on to salaries/benefits/work rules that, in some cases, are causing the problems to begin with.

DH's A319 engines don't match the ones on F9's Airbii. Maybe Ted will buy them. RAR!

But they do match the engines of the Spirit 319's. Spirit already picked up the cancelled orders.

^ I admire your attitude. The world would be a better place if more people had that outlook. The airline industry, as a whole, would be in a lot better shape if more people had your outlook. I apologize if my initial post seemed aggressive, I am so used to airline emplyees fighting to hold on to salaries/benefits/work rules that, in some cases, are causing the problems to begin with.
Thanks and apology accepted.

For some unexplained reason, Neeleman ordered 100 EMB-190s which seat about 100 people - the first one just went into service (today?). Apparently he thinks he can buck the conventional wisdom that says a low-cost carrier should stick to a single fleet type to minimize complexity and expense. Then again, he sold Morris Air to WN for a pile of money, so maybe he knows what he is doing. :)
Remember that B6 has a different business model than WN. B6 makes money flying 156 seat A320s that are over 85% full. WN makes money flying (mostly) 137 seat 737s that are often less than 70% full. Since B6 needs a high load factor for their model, there are a lot of cities that just can't support a 156 seat plane (with reasonable frequency) but will be able to fill a 100 seat plane. Since WN's "typical" 737 is only carrying about 100 pax (profitably), they don't have this problem and don't need a smaller plane.

Of course the second fleet type will increase costs, but it strikes me that B6 will open up markets that it couldn't otherwise serve.

that is a lot of gate slots being given up when DH goes under. personally, i would like to see UA take over A and get rid of the G concourse. could you see southwest coming into IAD? i mean, that's more than half the gates at the B concourse that would be freed up. interesting for sure.


Certainly a FlyI employee can vouch for this....but I am pretty certain that the A gates/ ramp would only be good for another carrier using 50 seat jets or something smaller. You might be able to fit a few Emb-170's in there, but the 190 seems too big, unless you redesigned the entire thing and cut the number of gates available by a lot.

Remember, the A gates are commuter gates, where you walk on the ramp and climb stairs into the airplane, not full fledged ones with jetways.

I am sure UAL would be interested but anyone else with a large express operation is not going to come into IAD and set up shop using those gates.

In my opinion.

DC

I have never flown DH, but I just want to wish DH Emplyee and colleagues well in the future. I Hope everything turns out well for you guys.

I second those comments about DH Employee.

Monday I flew MCO -> IAD; from the personnel at the counter to the flight crew, I was ALWAYS meant with a smile. We left on time and arrived 10 mins early... AND my checked baggage arrived at the carosel before I did.... I can't even think of a complaint, or even an improvement... I would really hate to see them go under....

How is Independence Air going to be able to hold on to their staff when it appears likely that in 90 days (or less) they will all be out of work. Without much of a future at their current employer, I would expect many employees will quit, call in sick, stop trying, or delay or cancel flights without much fear.

What do you think?
I agree with the other DH employee that said that most of the employees that are still here are here because they want to be. While I am sure that most DH employees have a "plan B" in the back of their mind, most of us that are left really enjoy who we work for and what we do. When you find that in a job, it is hard to give it up - even when the company is in serious trouble.

Certainly a FlyI employee can vouch for this....but I am pretty certain that the A gates/ ramp would only be good for another carrier using 50 seat jets or something smaller. You might be able to fit a few Emb-170's in there, but the 190 seems too big, unless you redesigned the entire thing and cut the number of gates available by a lot.

Remember, the A gates are commuter gates, where you walk on the ramp and climb stairs into the airplane, not full fledged ones with jetways.

I am sure UAL would be interested but anyone else with a large express operation is not going to come into IAD and set up shop using those gates.

In my opinion.

DC

Pilot,

Yeah yer right about the A gates. Of the 36 gate current layout, I think you might still have 24 usable gates with E190's. You'd have to stagger the gates and only get two spots per "gate" as opposed to the current three.

I'd make other plans, even for the December flights. But maybe mid doesn't mind the very real possibility of trying to fly standby during December if FlyI shuts down. Or the expense of buying full Y walkup fares for those flights. Me - I'd rather plan now and still get some advance purchase fares on an airline like WN, that is guaranteed to still be flying, as opposed to one that hopes to still be flying. ;)

Right. I would not expect to go anywhere on FlyI after January 6 -- that's 60 days from November 7 when the auction is supposed to end. That would be the date I'd bet on for a shutdown.

I'd also say don't count on any investors entering the picture; I'm sure FlyI's been trolling for them for months, and if the company's come up empty to this point, it's even more unlikely that anyone will show up in Ch. 11.

Right. I would not expect to go anywhere on FlyI after January 6 -- that's 60 days from November 7 when the auction is supposed to end. That would be the date I'd bet on for a shutdown.

I'd also say don't count on any investors entering the picture; I'm sure FlyI's been trolling for them for months, and if the company's come up empty to this point, it's even more unlikely that anyone will show up in Ch. 11.

Well...I'm not TOO worried about thewm stopping flying before Jan 6. After that, I'd say I'm medium worried.

At any rate, a walkup fare to BOS from IAD won't be ridiculous. Plenty of capacity on that route and I'm willing to bet that I'll get plenty of advance warning that DH won't fly my flights in Jan. Since I only have a couple, the pain won't be TOO bad if it comes to that.

At any rate, a walkup fare to BOS from IAD won't be ridiculous.

Presently, the walk up fare BOS-IAD is $199.00 one way

Presently, the walk up fare BOS-IAD is $199.00 one way

That sounds about right given that the RT corporate discount fares on the DCA-BOS shuttles are in the $425 range. I imagine they're knocking a couple of bucks off to get you to come out to Dulles.

I'm willing to bet that I'll get plenty of advance warning that DH won't fly my flights in Jan.

I assume by advance warning you mean you'll know to book other tickets on Jan 7 if FlyI dies on Jan 6 and you're not flying until Jan 24 or something. I think you're mistaken if you believe FlyI will telegraph what day they plan on pulling the plug; the first people to know will be the ones who show up at the airport and find that "See Agent" is listed on the monitor as the status for all FlyI flights.

While I am sure that most DH employees have a "plan B" in the back of their mind, most of us that are left really enjoy who we work for and what we do.

Let's hope more than a few FlyI employees bury the hatchet or swallow their pride as part of their "plan B" and apply for jobs with the existing UX carriers at IAD. We could sure use some good experienced people out at the G gates who bring a customer-first attitude and some pride in a job well done instead of the current crop of UX couldn't-care-less clockwatchers.

I assume by advance warning you mean you'll know to book other tickets on Jan 7 if FlyI dies on Jan 6 and you're not flying until Jan 24 or something. I think you're mistaken if you believe FlyI will telegraph what day they plan on pulling the plug; the first people to know will be the ones who show up at the airport and find that "See Agent" is listed on the monitor as the status for all FlyI flights.

Ya ya ya...

...I know there is a risk they'll die on Jan 6th. I might get some refundable tickets on UA if I get the willies. But if they fold on Jan 5th, 4th, or 3rd, I've still got time to rebook on another airline.

You seem to believe that I don't know how to manage risk or that I've never been left holding the bag by an airline.

I could tell you the times that I've had a paid ticket on a flight and been told I couldn't board because we oversold/cancelled flight/couldn't find a pilot/etc. At least I have an idea of the risk I'm assuming at this stage of things. In my mind, my ticket wont be worthless for my purposes unless the company folds the day of or immediately before.

If it folds the day after, I'm still good. At the prices I booked these flights, I'd be a fool to try and purchase some comparable flights on UA or another carrier. If I do anything at all, I'd get fully refundable fares and even those are ridiculous.

UA is charging $893 for a refundable fare from IAD-BOS. Tell me how that compares to the $98 I paid for the same nonrefundable flight on DH.

If it comes right down to it and DH folds before I get to finish up my flights, I might just well take the train.

Let's hope more than a few FlyI employees bury the hatchet or swallow their pride as part of their "plan B" and apply for jobs with the existing UX carriers at IAD. We could sure use some good experienced people out at the G gates who bring a customer-first attitude and some pride in a job well done instead of the current crop of UX couldn't-care-less clockwatchers.

Let's hope more than a few FlyI employees bury the hatchet or swallow their pride as part of their "plan B" and apply for jobs with the existing UX carriers at IAD. We could sure use some good experienced people out at the G gates who bring a customer-first attitude and some pride in a job well done instead of the current crop of UX couldn't-care-less clockwatchers.

UA is charging $893 for a refundable fare from IAD-BOS. Tell me how that compares to the $98 I paid for the same nonrefundable flight on DH.


Um, it doesn't really compare; the high UA fare is refundable, the cheap DH fare is not.

Of course, the WN refundable fare BWI-BDL/MHT is around $100 OW IIRC.

Independence Air hasn't released financial results for the July-to-September period, but in the quarter before that it lost $95.8 million, marking the fifth straight quarter of losses.

When announcing those results in August, it disclosed that it had just $66 million in cash on hand.

DH has problems...and i feel bad for their employees. i've never flown DH, and i never will. mainly because i am loyal to UA and i love their product (3-class aircraft domestically). i've heard great things about DH, but it's not for me. i to places DH doesn't fly.

Um, it doesn't really compare; the high UA fare is refundable, the cheap DH fare is not.

My point was that I'm not going to book a RT refundable fare to BOS on the chance that DH won't fly on Jan 10th or 11th. If they croak that day and I'm left in the lurch, I'll book a walkup fare and get there.

If they croak earlier, I've still got time to book a nonrefundable. In either case, it'll be WAY less than the nonrefundable.