Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Timetable changed: Case against LH/OPODO

Hi there,

it happened that I was really trying to save money once and booked the cheapest return partly with a voucher received from Opodo - and this around 5 months in advance.

The day of outbound departure came, received at the C-Class counter my Passenger Receipt with all the facts again on it. Happy so far :cool:

Few hours before my return flight on the day after next the LH portal came up with "no availible flight for check in". Well I called the LH Hotline they told me the timetable changed already 3.5 months ago (they took this flight simply off) and according to their documents I had been informed by mail. To be really (!) honest, I always receive newsletter and all that stuff as well as promotions etc, they are never deleted but archived - and I have never ever received any flight changes via mail.

That very day there was no flight any more. And the next morning (monday), to my very surprise all flights had been fully booked. The bad thing: all four airports within 1-2 hours driving distance as well up to 10am!

Three hours later I found one seat on a 6am flight from another airport. LH Hotline refused to rebook because this seat was C (while I originally booked L) :td:

But I had to be back in the office until noon on monday. So I took my credit card and booked the one and only seat, paid the cab driver a fortune, had a very short and uncomfortable night and was not really fully up to speed the rest of the day in the office.

LH just wrote that they have some printouts of their Amadeus booking machine which would back up that they indeed sent out twice notifications to my mailadress. It is somehow decoded so I can not say if this is anything which can proof something. But I really am so sure I can't tell you that they for whatever reasons have not sent it, maybe technical failure or whatsoever.

I am reluctant to accept LH and/or Opodo can get away with this. I really would like to see at least my costs covered and hopefully claim according to the EU rights some €s as well. All in all nearly 1k€ not to speak from the unpleasant 24 hours :mad:

Any experiences you had as well going in this direction? Any hints you can give me? Any experts in law which would like to take over this case and support me by going to court if this is the last option? :rolleyes:

Thanks indeed in advance!

I am confused. Did you buy from LH or Opodo? Opodo acts as a travel agent and hence has to inform you about any schedule changes.

If you have booked through Opodo, you have to go after them. And LH in such a case NEVER directly contacts the passenger, because the only information besides his name in their booking is the travel-agent (they could have used your FF-info to obtain an adress, but I would consider that HIGHLY unlikely) - they only will contact the travel-agent with any changes.

So if you booked through Opodo, go after them. I did the same once with Expedia, and after some back-and-forth I finally was reimbursed completely for all related expenses including the hotel at LHR where my sister got stuck.

Greetings - Dirk

If you have booked through Opodo, you have to go after them. And LH in such a case NEVER directly contacts the passenger, because the only information besides his name in their booking is the travel-agent (they could have used your FF-info to obtain an adress, but I would consider that HIGHLY unlikely) - they only will contact the travel-agent with any changes.

So if you booked through Opodo, go after them. I did the same once with Expedia, and after some back-and-forth I finally was reimbursed completely for all related expenses including the hotel at LHR where my sister got stuck.

Greetings - Dirk


well, I always receive those notifications directly from OPODO and whenever the new flights are inconvenient for me, LH _never_ gave me a hard time by either rerouting me or allowing to cancel the whole trip without a penalty.

so there are 2 options.

1. he got the mail and deleted it
2. if he says that this is impossible, this must have been a tech problem with opodo.

my suggestion: call opodo again and ask them, when exactly they've sent out the mail.

BTW, without sounding "too smart, schedules change on a regular basis so I always check my depature times again some days before my travel.

cheers

ben

quote : BTW, without sounding "too smart, schedules change on a regular basis so I always check my depature times again some days before my travel.

cheers

ben[/QUOTE]



Yes but in his case he received his receipt a few days before the flight (during check in of the outbond flight) with the old canceled flights on it, of course without any mention of the cancelation. And nobody at check in tell him that his flight back was cancelled and that he don't hold any reservation in any flight on the way back...

Did LH offer you no return flight at all? I assume they made a rebooking to some later flight which was too late for you?
If a flight is cancelled, the customer may decide to accept the rebooking or ask for a different flight/date/routing or ask for a refund. (That's what the EU regulation says for a flight cancellation more than 14 days before departure)

Finally it's a question of the proof, as the EU regulation says:
"The burden of proof concerning the questions as to
whether and when the passenger has been informed of the
cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air
carrier."

It wouldn't be sufficient for LH to proof that they informed opodo, they'd have to proof as well that opodo informed you.

quote : BTW, without sounding "too smart, schedules change on a regular basis so I always check my depature times again some days before my travel.

cheers

ben



Yes but in his case he received his receipt a few days before the flight (during check in of the outbond flight) with the old canceled flights on it, of course without any mention of the cancelation. And nobody at check in tell him that his flight back was cancelled and that he don't hold any reservation in any flight on the way back...[/QUOTE]
This was the bit of information I was looking for


This cannot happen. If ther is a schedule change the MUST protect you on another flight. I have never heard that they just cancle a return leg. (OR did you have 2 resrvations, but even then they need to acoomodate you).

Under this scenario it is denied boarding, and you are allowed to rebook, get the cost reimbursed AND get the 600 Euro...

added: the protection needs to be on a later flight so non-informed passangers are protected.

If you have booked through Opodo, you have to go after them. And LH in such a case NEVER directly contacts the passenger, because the only information besides his name in their booking is the travel-agent (they could have used your FF-info to obtain an adress, but I would consider that HIGHLY unlikely) - they only will contact the travel-agent with any changes.

So if you booked through Opodo, go after them. I did the same once with Expedia, and after some back-and-forth I finally was reimbursed completely for all related expenses including the hotel at LHR where my sister got stuck.

Greetings - Dirk

First of all I checked with OPODO as I booked via their portal. They told me in writing I should contact LH since they act only on behalf of LH. At this point in time I stopped cause I thought "hold on, LH might fingerpoint back to OPODO so don't play this game". I gave this to a lawyer and he talked to LH. They told him that they are indeed responsible (and not OPODO) as the contract for the service was actually with LH. Well to be honest I don't bother, as LH does not refuse to be responsible :) BUT they tell me I should have received two mails (which I haven't).

For anybody who thinks "hey, he just deleted those mails and wanted to see what happens" - I would have really preferred to have been notified before. All this action, nearly no sleep, significant additional costs, bad start into the week, trouble not only those days but now to claim money back is nothing I somehow enjoy :(

Did LH offer you no return flight at all? I assume they made a rebooking to some later flight which was too late for you?
If a flight is cancelled, the customer may decide to accept the rebooking or ask for a different flight/date/routing or ask for a refund. (That's what the EU regulation says for a flight cancellation more than 14 days before departure)

Finally it's a question of the proof, as the EU regulation says:
"The burden of proof concerning the questions as to
whether and when the passenger has been informed of the
cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air
carrier."

It wouldn't be sufficient for LH to proof that they informed opodo, they'd have to proof as well that opodo informed you.

LH was not able to offer me any later flight that sunday night as the flight which was cancelled would have been the last one for the day. They had changed the booking to the previous flight some hours ago - but as I had not been informed I didn't knew about it.

Really have to say I had been very flexible by offering them already on the phone any nearby airport to get a flight the next morning. So I offered already taking a cab and getting up more than early although I stayed 15 car-minutes away from DTM. Alternative airports had been DUS, FMO, PAD. But all flights in all classes had been fully booked. I asked them to put me on all waiting lists possible and that I would call them just before midnight again to check when I have to get up to get which flight from which airport. The only seat which became vacant was on a flight from FMO in C and they did not want to offer me any C class seat so I had to spend my own money to get my flight to show up in the office at least at noon. Getting up just before 4am on a monday morning after having had discussions on the phone until after midnight followed by a horrible cad ride was definitely not my preferred start for that week :(

Hope this makes it clearer a little bit... and underpins my frustration about how up to today this has been handled by LH :mad:

LH was not able to offer me any later flight that sunday night as the flight which was cancelled would have been the last one for the day. They had changed the booking to the previous flight some hours ago - but as I had not been informed I didn't knew about it.

Really have to say I had been very flexible by offering them already on the phone any nearby airport to get a flight the next morning. So I offered already taking a cab and getting up more than early although I stayed 15 car-minutes away from DTM. Alternative airports had been DUS, FMO, PAD. But all flights in all classes had been fully booked. I asked them to put me on all waiting lists possible and that I would call them just before midnight again to check when I have to get up to get which flight from which airport. The only seat which became vacant was on a flight from FMO in C and they did not want to offer me any C class seat so I had to spend my own money to get my flight to show up in the office at least at noon. Getting up just before 4am on a monday morning after having had discussions on the phone until after midnight followed by a horrible cad ride was definitely not my preferred start for that week :(

Hope this makes it clearer a little bit... and underpins my frustration about how up to today this has been handled by LH :mad:

Again as you pointed out they had rebooked you on an EARLIER flight. This is not allowed as it doesn't protect you in case of lack of communication. It is highly unusual to send a schedule change by mail . So far I always was called by the CRS.

Mail is insecrue, and the story of sending two, doesn't cut it. If they think it is sufficient why two? If they believe themselves that mail is unreliable, then why bother at all.

Again, you were booked on the flight, and LH did not transport you according to contract. I assume that LH will offer you a C-ticket anywhere in the world but I think it should be reimbursement of ticket, the 600 Euro, hotel and taxi cost and other expenses...

But lets see... I think it was a bad CRS you had, as putting you on the C would have been so easy...

However, I assume you wanted to go DTM-MUC ???? makes me wonder if your last flight on Sunday was cancelled, why didn't you take the night train to MUC, instead of hoping to go by plane ????
DTM -MUC is 6-7 hours drive, you could have taken a one way rental... You probably spend 200 Euro for the taxi ride DTM - FMO and could have gone DTM - MUC on the train for 100. Unless you were on your way to HKG, which is unliekly as you expected to be in the office by noon.... :confused:


Considering these assumptions you will have a hard time to get your money back, as you as a customer also have a requirement to keep the cost minimal.

Again as you pointed out they had rebooked you on an EARLIER flight. This is not allowed as it doesn't protect you in case of lack of communication. It is highly unusual to send a schedule change by mail . So far I always was called by the CRS.

Mail is insecrue, and the story of sending two, doesn't cut it. If they think it is sufficient why two? If they believe themselves that mail is unreliable, then why bother at all.

Again, you were booked on the flight, and LH did not transport you according to contract. I assume that LH will offer you a C-ticket anywhere in the world but I think it should be reimbursement of ticket, the 600 Euro, hotel and taxi cost and other expenses...

But lets see... I think it was a bad CRS you had, as putting you on the C would have been so easy...

However, I assume you wanted to go DTM-MUC ???? makes me wonder if your last flight on Sunday was cancelled, why didn't you take the night train to MUC, instead of hoping to go by plane ????
DTM -MUC is 6-7 hours drive, you could have taken a one way rental... You probably spend 200 Euro for the taxi ride DTM - FMO and could have gone DTM - MUC on the train for 100. Unless you were on your way to HKG, which is unliekly as you expected to be in the office by noon.... :confused:


Considering these assumptions you will have a hard time to get your money back, as you as a customer also have a requirement to keep the cost minimal.

First of all it is very good to hear the procedure of LH has been unusual. Rescheduling on the earlier flight as well as not giving me a call.

So you have already given me very valid point to underpin my case - thanks!

Even today I don't know why they refused to take me on that *censored* C class seat. Maybe I was too nice and friendly on the phone - or I insisted too much on rebooking me to ANY flight, at least ONE seat which I can get from any surrounding airport.

About the night train thing, you are right. But to be honest I have not even considered this, I was so busy and concentrated on getting a seat on a plane as I love sleeping in a "not moving bed" rather than in a train. That is the reason I have not travelled once over the last 12 months or so on long distance trains [and yes, I do not deserve any more my bahn.comfort status :rolleyes: ]. And if the LH lady would have been clever, she would have offered my some options as THEY deal with this stuff every day so many times and should be trained on helping customers to find a suitable solution which suits the customer as well as LH themselves... bad customer care really :mad:

Let's see what the outcome will be - will keep you posted although this might really take a while :(

Hi all,

following the discussion here with some valuable input I brought the case forward and after some tricks (LH tried, but without luck) I now get costs for court, lawyer and all additional expenses back 100% :) . Just the EU compensation they refused to agree on because from LHs point of view this can be settled off against any claim of expenses. However, at least all costs are covered but no voucher or "sorry"... but you can't have everyhing and I am glad it came to an end.

So thanks again for your comments and useful hints,
cheers
muc_flyer

Congratulations on that successful battle!

With all the expenses - did that include the taxi fare as well?

That might give me some momentum to fight BMI after all :) !

congratulations

CONGRATULATIONS!

just saw this thread now and i am glad to read a happy ending only few mins after trying to imagine myself in your situation...

Congrats, glad to see that things worked out in the end!

Just the EU compensation they refused to agree on because from LHs point of view this can be settled off against any claim of expenses. However, at least all costs are covered but no voucher or "sorry"... but you can't have everyhing and I am glad it came to an end.

And LH is absolutely right on this one - the amount in the EU-compensation is ment to be a lump-sum compensation for damages resulting from their misacting which you do not have to prove any damages for.

However if you claim damages and prove them (like additional ticket cost, taxi fare etc), you will get that amount. The payout from EU-regulations is not considered a penalty that would be on top of any damages, so LH's point of view in this regard is probably right.

Just to clarify: Did you get a judgement n this case, or did LH pay your claim after you brought that matter into court? Seems like LH usually does the latter in most cases to prevent from setting a precedence...

Greetings - Dirk

First of all thanks to all of you for your virtual handshake :)

@djohannw: there is a condition on those EU compensations which read like they can (but not have to) be settled against any damages claimed. In my case I more than deserved 250€ extra but baring in mind german law where you are not entitled to get compensation for disadvantages like stress, no sleep, heart attacks ;) and being late at work and so on and so on... it's a good solution
And to answer this one: as I read here already LH prefers to agree prior to a courts decision. So it was in my case: One day before end of courts deadline they rang my lawyer (not flyinglawyer :D ) and we discussed and accepted the offer

@weero: you don't know me :D yes of course taxi, additional C-fare, mobile costs (documented by EVN, chatting with LH and travel agency worth more than 60€ alone) - but to stress on this: there were no fake costs claimed!

@sebastian746: guess we are from time to time in uncomfortable situations. But only if they cross a certain (personal) "threshold" then I really get angry, like with this one. This thread should encourage everyone who really believes from the bottom of his heart you have not been treated correct to balance pros and cons and think of fighting for your right if it's worth the efford.

All the best for your fights if there are any outstanding currently ;)
muc_flyer