Independence Air iClub - Will Flyi make it until Oct 17 ?

I've got a one way flight home HPN - SEA on Oct 16. How worried should I be ? Is there anything I should be doing now just in case ? If my flight is cancelled what is there any way for me to get home short of paying walk up fares ?

It seems that many of you do not realize that Ch. 11 does not mean that flights will cease.

i.e., United, US Airways, Delta, NW, etc.

Your ticket is fine, flights will continue as scheduled in the event of ch.11.

I would be worried, because the problem is that if they go under they will problably go 7 vs. 11.

I think it will be a Happy Day when they go 7!!!

I think it will be a Happy Day when they go 7!!!


Happy for who? They tried - did a good job and had VERY BAD TIMING...

Have you flown them? I did quite a few times. Got me where I wanted to go - and never had an issue.

I would be worried, because the problem is that if they go under they will problably go 7 vs. 11.

I think it will be a Happy Day when they go 7!!!


Oh, there's a very high likelihood that Indy will go chapter 7 but I would never call it a happy day. Loss of jobs, lack of competition and the risk that other airlines will raise fares.

Why would anyone write that it will be a Happy Day when they go Chapter 7. They are a terrific airline and have excellent employees.

I'm guessing that FlyI will still be around; despite the gloomy story a couple weeks ago about its mere $18 million cash balance, it hasn't filed yet. Perhaps it will be successful at locating "stay out of bankruptcy" financing.

The employees have been told that at this time chapter 7 is not even being considered. Take that for what you will, but I believe it. For the original poster, I feel very very confident that you don't have anything to worry about as far as DH being out of business by Oct. 16th. (possibly chapter 11, but as was stated before a chapter 11 filing would probably have little effects on flights in the short term at least).

werm97, you are either a complete moron or a complete jerk... or very possibly, both. Thanks for adding absolutely nothing to the thread! :rolleyes:

Thanks for the intelligent responses. I was hoping I would get some ideas on if I should be making any contingency plans or suggestions for how to handle it if the flight is cancelled due to chap 7. I got burned by Western Pacific one time although that wasn't in the middle of the trip.

I cannot understand why anyone would be happy with all of those employees out of work and all of those passengers stranded.

It would be unusually rare for the current people in charge (the people who decide what chapter is filed) to decide a Ch. 7 on day one. Even if they want to liquidate but have some control over the liquidation, it has to be an 11. If they file an 11 and have no possible chance at a reorg, or aren't acting competently as a debtor-in-possession, the US Trustee will move to convert them to 7, or have a Ch. 11 Trustee appointed.

The only other way into 7 is an involuntary 7 forced by creditors.

On and after October 17, the rules on Ch. 11 reorgs will substantially change, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a filing this week.

You can always go buy a refundable ticket on another airline as a back up in case you are worried. Then after you are sure you won't need it, you can get it refunded. It's cheap insurance (other than credit card caryying costs, which would be minimal this close to flying anyway), and likely cheaper than the walk-up fares you'd be looking at if Indy did stop flying.

FWIW I have to go to Westchester County from WAS for the day on Nov 12 and I am not booking on DH this far out but am leaning towards the train, something I have not done since DH started service.

The employees have been told that at this time chapter 7 is not even being considered. Take that for what you will, but I believe it. For the original poster, I feel very very confident that you don't have anything to worry about as far as DH being out of business by Oct. 16th. (possibly chapter 11, but as was stated before a chapter 11 filing would probably have little effects on flights in the short term at least).
I don't mean to be mean, but in a situation like this, the employees are the last to find out. They're not going to tell anyone about a C7 until it happens because is diminishes morale, spooks customers, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think they'll be fine through October and while we might see a C11 flying, they'll be around for a while though the current jet fuel pricing (especially the refinery premium being insanely high compared to historical levels) is probably putting a massive pinch on the finances.

I'd love for them to be around since I have an award ticket available to use and I've finally gotten a number of my coworkers to fly on them for our business trips, but we'll all have to wait and see. They did end up getting horribly unlucky on timing in launching the airline, but no one saw it coming -- the world really looked like we were moving back toward higher fares and more high-fare business travelers along with lower fuel prices than we've been seeing.

Happy for who? They tried - did a good job and had VERY BAD TIMING...

Yes they had bad timing - but they they had some knowledge of that from the start. They launched their airline in a time that was really bad for airlines. United wanted to pay them next-to-nothing to be a UAX carrier and they said no thanks. The general conditions in the airline industry were at some of the worst around. Flights were cheap and fuel was high. As time went on, airfares kept mostly the same, while fuel continued to go up. FlyI failed to make needed changes to their business plan (reduction in cities, GDS) until almost all the cash was gone. That was timing they could have controlled. Remember that JetBlue started out of New York shortly before Sept 11, 2001 - probably the worst timing possible in the airline industry.

What I see as the greatest achievement of FlyI is that they have managed to turn the horror that was ACA into a receptable airline with quality performance and customer service. A rapid company culture change like that rarely happens in corporate America. FlyI's transformation was truely an accomplishment. Now if only, they could match up expenses and revenue...

As to reports of 'no Chapter 7', I would take it with a grain of salt. Any time the CFO jumps ship like that, there may be a case of him saying things that management doesn't want to hear.

The bad timing I was thinking about was price of jet fuel... I believe that they had no choice but the jump UA. Look at what NW is doing to Mesaba...

spampurse,

FWIW, when I was with DH, I learned more about the financial aspects/performance/position of the company by reading industry rags and NOT the "Daily Briefing" which was our internal cheerleading propaganda. The Daily Briefing, if it ever contained anything of substance, was at least a month behind ATW or whatever it is one might read.

Now, in the company's defense, I think that has to do with SEC violations -- to insulate the company and its employees from insider trading allegations, they really can't tell 4000 people something unless they tell the general public. So, if they don't want the general public to know, they won't tell you either.

Now, in the company's defense, I think that has to do with SEC violations -- to insulate the company and its employees from insider trading allegations, they really can't tell 4000 people something unless they tell the general public. So, if they don't want the general public to know, they won't tell you either.

Exactly. Very good answer.

Bankruptcy filings are often a huge surprise to employees (other than top management, of course) since management never gives employees any advance notice of an intention to file Ch 11.

OK, I admit, reading over my original post it does sound a silly to say that "the company says they aren't going under... so we'll be ok". And admittedly, there have not been any official communications saying this, I was pointing to the things that many of the employees (and people not employed by DH) can see and things that have been said that point to Chapter 7 not being seriously considered at this time. I'm sorry if I did not write it correctly.

However, I would argue that FWAA's comment that bankruptcy filings come as a surprise doesn't really hold true to the airline industry recently. Of the 4 majors currently in BK, none of their filings could be considered surprises, because all of them had been proclaiming how bad the industy conditions were and that BK was a very real possibility. It seems like recently when an airline is even thinking of filing they aren't exactly quiet about their intensions, and thus everyone has time to read the handwriting on the wall. My point is, the handwriting just isn't there for DH to file Chpt 7 at this time. That's just my opinion. We'll see.

However, I would argue that FWAA's comment that bankruptcy filings come as a surprise doesn't really hold true to the airline industry recently. Of the 4 majors currently in BK, none of their filings could be considered surprises, because all of them had been proclaiming how bad the industy conditions were and that BK was a very real possibility. It seems like recently when an airline is even thinking of filing they aren't exactly quiet about their intensions, and thus everyone has time to read the handwriting on the wall. My point is, the handwriting just isn't there for DH to file Chpt 7 at this time. That's just my opinion. We'll see.

I was speaking in general terms, not limiting my post to the four current examples. I said often, not always. I agree with you that the current spate of bankruptcies are no real surprise. :)

Nevertheless, many people were caught off guard by the timing of the NW filing - witness how many hapless people bid up its stock (by dollars) in the week prior to the Ch 11 petition. DL's stock, on the other hand, slowly deteriorated (without any big pre-filing bounce) in the last few weeks as everyone knew that its filing was a certainty.

As far as two surprises go...

Remember National Airlines (N7/Redrock)? IIRC, they pretty much shut down operations mid-day. Southeast Airlines (or whoever it was that a Florida based HQ and a significant presence at Gary,IN/GYY) pretty much shut their doors one night and had confused employees wondering why they couldn't go to work.

WRT to NW and DL, I tend to think that the specific dates of filing came as a surprise. It's like chicken little and the sky falling -- it's falling, but the day it finally falls always wakes people.

If an airline goes out of business entirely, there are rules in place that protect your itinerary. The law requires other airlines to accept your ticket on a space-available basis, after a charge of between $25 and $50, according to Judge Dickerson. But he warns that the rule is scheduled to expire Nov. 19.

With two smaller airlines -- Spirit Airlines and Independence Air - believed by analysts to be on the verge of bankruptcy filings, that could become an option some passengers will soon need to consider.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/16/travel/16prac.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1129381356-dPgj1/a64xkjKVepBcVOfw

Southeast Airlines (or whoever it was that a Florida based HQ and a significant presence at Gary,IN/GYY) pretty much shut their doors one night and had confused employees wondering why they couldn't go to work.
That was SouthEast Airlines -- web site: www.flyseal.com
It really did come out of nowhere. I had a friend that had just finished a trip on them and was getting ready to book another when they just shut down. Hooters Air has since picked up some of those routes.

let's face it--the whole concept of flyi was very ill conceived--it was hopeless from the beginning. And the financials are proving this. Chapter 11 seems a certainty, and it would not be a surprise at all to see this progress to a chapter 7.

Even with all the doomsayers - they made it to October 17th.

Obviously, Independence is still flying and I had a great flight home from HPN to SEA. Service was better than JetBlue which I flew out to JFK. I'm sorry I paid attention to the doomsayers, some whose goal I wonder is to spread FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) about Flyi. Its too bad they are pulling out of SEA, I look forward to them coming back.

Obviously, Independence is still flying and I had a great flight home from HPN to SEA. Service was better than JetBlue which I flew out to JFK. I'm sorry I paid attention to the doomsayers, some whose goal I wonder is to spread FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) about Flyi. Its too bad they are pulling out of SEA, I look forward to them coming back.

i dont think you will be seeing flyi back in SEA anytime soon. Sorry.

Now the big question for us is whether they will be around on 11/21. I've been a huge fan but am a little nervous about booking a Thanksgiving trip to LAS.

You hit the nail on the head. How do they get business and leisure customers to continue to book them for future flights.

You hit the nail on the head. How do they get business and leisure customers to continue to book them for future flights.

Quite honestly, I think the answer is very simple. I'd say two factors are at work. One is that many people are unaware of all the rumours and discussions. To them, it is just another trip. The second reason (and the one I applaud) is that some people have figured out the truth that most analysts and journalists rehash second-hand speculation. This second group of travelers is aware that there is risk involved and things may go sour, but they are hoping for the best and are tired of reports that never seem to be quite accurate.


Cheers.

P.S. Maybe some just want to support an airline they like. I know that I'd support the companies who's service I enjoy when they are in greatest need.

I feel the same way. It will be a shame to see flyi gone. I really enjoy there service and the competition they brought to IAD. Hope they can make it.



Obviously, Independence is still flying and I had a great flight home from HPN to SEA. Service was better than JetBlue which I flew out to JFK. I'm sorry I paid attention to the doomsayers, some whose goal I wonder is to spread FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) about Flyi. Its too bad they are pulling out of SEA, I look forward to them coming back.

Quite honestly, I think the answer is very simple. I'd say two factors are at work. One is that many people are unaware of all the rumours and discussions. To them, it is just another trip. The second reason (and the one I applaud) is that some people have figured out the truth that most analysts and journalists rehash second-hand speculation. This second group of travelers is aware that there is risk involved and things may go sour, but they are hoping for the best and are tired of reports that never seem to be quite accurate.


Cheers.

P.S. Maybe some just want to support an airline they like. I know that I'd support the companies who's service I enjoy when they are in greatest need.

Let me just chime in and say that FlyI is doing everything right on the customer service front.

That's HUGE in my book.

I know that there are tons of people out there predicting the end but my feeling is that good customer service will win every time.

I've been flying the IAD to BOS route for several months now and I can tell you that the loads on each flight are steadily increasing. I pay attention to this stuff and things have gone from "whole plane to myself" to relatively full for that time of day.

FlyI is doing right by the customer. That is always the best policy. Given a choice between UA and DH, I'd fly DH.

Why?

If I need to change a flight, I won't get socked with a huge change fee. It's silly to charge $100 to move from a crowded flight to a less crowded one at off-peak times. Try telling that to UA.

My fights on DH have been completely easy and uneventfull...and that's a good thing.

I like UA for a lot of things but I know they can do better when it comes to short flights out of their hubs. The whole United Express thing simply isn't working out; especially when I can get a better product at a cheaper fare.

I like UA for a lot of things but I know they can do better when it comes to short flights out of their hubs. The whole United Express thing simply isn't working out; especially when I can get a better product at a cheaper fare.

Back when I worked for ACA, we had a significant amount of people who travelled on our flights that were NOT connecting to or from a UA flight. Some even got off one of our planes and right back on another one of our planes. Poor people :)

Our management knew that.. The real question was how many of those people were flying on those flights because they were marketed under the UA brand and earned UA miles, and whether or not it was possible to break them away from the UA brand.

Let me just chime in and say that FlyI is doing everything right on the customer service front.

That's HUGE in my book.

I know that there are tons of people out there predicting the end but my feeling is that good customer service will win every time.

I've been flying the IAD to BOS route for several months now and I can tell you that the loads on each flight are steadily increasing. I pay attention to this stuff and things have gone from "whole plane to myself" to relatively full for that time of day.

FlyI is doing right by the customer. That is always the best policy. Given a choice between UA and DH, I'd fly DH.

Why?

If I need to change a flight, I won't get socked with a huge change fee. It's silly to charge $100 to move from a crowded flight to a less crowded one at off-peak times. Try telling that to UA.

My fights on DH have been completely easy and uneventfull...and that's a good thing.

I like UA for a lot of things but I know they can do better when it comes to short flights out of their hubs. The whole United Express thing simply isn't working out; especially when I can get a better product at a cheaper fare.

Flyi may be doing everything right customer service wise, but they are doing everything wrong from a financial point of view. The losses are just staggering. Regrettably, Flyi is looking like it will just be an asterick in airline history.

They've got a terrific group of employees but the deck is certainly stacked against them.

They've got a terrific group of employees but the deck is certainly stacked against them.

Agree. Unfortunately, liquidation seems the most likely outcome.

It's always possible they could find someone to invest more money (that strangely seems to happen in this industry, against all better judgment). That could prolong things.

I can't see how they'll make money. I don't think they have any idea how they can make money.

So... DH is probably DHoomed. But when?

They made it past the deadline to use the old bankruptcy laws. Will they file this week? Next month? December? Or will they get a new, brief lease on life?