Air New Zealand Air Points - Review of Premium Economy

Sept 2, 2005 AKL-SFO

Due to fog closing AKL much earlier in the day, ZK-SUI was (very) late arriving from Melbourne. Initially scheduled for 7:20pm, we finally got off the ground some time after 4am. Compensation for the delay consisted of a $12 meal voucher (gee thanks, Air NZ!) Check-in at ZQN had neglected to warn me about this, or perhaps hadn't known, so it was a not-so-nice surprise to be told this when I got to AKL.

I had been hoping for an air points upgrade to business premiere (booked earlier at the old upgrade rate of AP400), but in the end I missed out - I suspect a few NZ Golds and Gold Elites got in ahead of me. The gate agent instead offered Premium Economy which I was happy to accept at that point. The premium economy section was full, and it also sounded like a few regular economy passengers had been op-upped to premium.

I found the premium economy seat to be very comfortable - supportive in all the right places without being hard. Without taking size and recline into account, I think they're actually nicer than the old business class seats on the 747. The extra 6" or so of pitch makes a lot more difference than you might think - you can get your legs stretched out into a much more relaxing position for sleeping, and if you're not in an isle seat, its easier to get out to the isle without having to disturb your neighbour. The leg rests also work pretty nicely.

The under-window storage bins from business class have been retained in the premium economy section, which I find really nice to keep shoes/jacket/books etc in without having to go up to the overhead compartment.

My only complaints here are:

- The arm-rest is the standard, narrow, shared, economy style - so you can end up elbow-josling with your neighbour.
- There is a metal IFE box, roughly 15-20cm wide, under the seat in front of you in the "K" window seat. I'm not sure how many of these are, the "J" seat next to me did not have one - perhaps there are 1 or 2 for each row of seats. Its not wide enough to significantly impair your leg room, since you can maneuver your feet around it, but can be annoying all the same when you're trying to stretch out. Its unfortunate that they havn't yet miniaturized the IFE technology a bit more.

The IFE itself was reasonably impressive with a good selection of current/recent movies and a few classics. I watched Layer Cake, Hitchhikers Guide, and something else that I don't recall. Could be nice to have a bit more NZ-specific content and news content. The menus on the IFE interface tend to respond a bit sluggishly which can be annoying - kind of like the old SKY decoders in NZ - and the crew warned us to "wait until it has completed one operation before pressing more buttons" - apparently that can crash it. I didn't have any problems with mine, though. The Air NZ-themed interface graphics are pretty nice. I found the screen a bit too bright once the cabin lights were off, but did later discover a brightness option. The "control devices" look like they support both phone and credit-card-swiping functionality, neither of which are enabled yet.

Meals consisted of the standard (but good, as usual on NZ) economy class meals, but with an additional course of crackers and cheeses presented after dinner on proper china, ala business class. You can also help yourself to the business class bar with wine and various snacks. Order of the meals was reversed given the late departure, it didn't seem to make much sense serving dinner at 5am.

The redesigned overhead bins look nice, however they do drop down rather low when the bin is opened, making it hard to get out of the window seat when the bin is down.

And finally, the best part of premium economy is that since the upper deck exits from the rear, you pretty much get to be first off the plane - getting the jump on most of the business premiere pax.

Amusing overheard conversation between customs agents/security guards at SFO, apparently surprised by the arrival of a 747 at an unusual hour: "what? they got delayed for 8 hours in Oakland? Here?!" "No, AUCKland, in New Zealand" ;-)

In summary, although I'm not sure if I'd be able to justify the full premium economy fare on a personal trip, it is certainly well worth dropping AP200 for an upgrade. It would probably also be worth paying for a premium economy ticket if you then planned to upgrade to business from there - presumably a one-class upgrade from premium would have priority over a two-class upgrade from economy.

Thanks for the report Reason077 ^

Thanks for that ^ ,
Interesting that you found the legrest and footbar good. Was it NZ Boy that told us that the IFE box was going to be mounted up in the seat pan, so not to impede on legroom.

NZ have plans to install more seats in that class but not to address the armrest problems, which I think is silly as there are not enough Business Premier seats for the anticipated demand. I wonder if it’s possible to install 20 Business Premier Suites on the upper deck.

A U-> J upgrade does have preference over a Y -> U and the silly thing is you can't pay A200 Y -> U then use a comp upgrade U -> J and you can't buy U class segments on LH tickets which use NZ flight numbers.

Thanks for the report Reason077, I've been curious to hear about this new class. For the most part, it sounds pretty good.

Regarding the seat, from the pictures it looked like the legrest/footrest sat so low as not to be of much use, especially for taller pax. It sounds like you found it OK, so if you don't mind me asking, how tall are you?

Was the beverage service the same as Business Premier, or was it only the self-service bar/snack area that was shared? Any comments on the quality of the wine? And what goodies were available in the snack area?

Oh, and any pre-boarding for Premium Economy or do you board with the hoi polloi?

Sorry for all the questions! :)

mad_atta, I'm about 190cm tall. I didn't use the footrest the entire time, but found it was high enough to get my feet off the floor and into a comfortable position - very nice to be able to do that when you've been sitting for a while. I think it certainly beats than the old economy-class foot rests.

Unfortunately I don't recall much of the wine selection - this was at around 5am due to the late departure, and at that point there wasn't a great deal of enthusiasm for it. I don't recall being offered a bar service beyond the wine selection, but it could be I wasn't paying attention!

The snack bar as far as I recall included bottled water, cute packs of some kind of vegetable chips (taro?), biscuits, mini chocolate bars, and the various wines.

And yes, there was a pre-boarding for premium economy :)

Thanks! :)

Thanks Reason077 for that great report. I am considering booking this class and just want to know how you think I would do being 6ft5.

Are there any seats that I should avoid? or that are better?

What is the recline off vertical for the seat back?

Thanks for your help :)

I booked Premium Economy for a recent return trip to SFO, but I used confirmed upgrades to actually travel in Business Premier.

I would like to make a few comments about all of this....

The Premium Economy product is obviously popular, given the ultra-long range of many NZ services, but it isn't quite right yet. Why do I say this?

1) The seats are disappointing. They are to all intents and purposes the Economy seat, with a bigger seating pitch and greater recline. Virgin Atlantic also have a similar mixed Business / Premium Economy configuration upstairs, but their Premium Economy is 2 seats by 2 seats, whereas NZ has 3 by 2. I understand that the airline - having just removed 2 by 2 Business class seating, sees 2 by 2 as a waste of money, but the seats barely deserve a price premium.

2) The meal service doesn't match the price tag. This bit is important. Sure, the airline claims that Premium Economy costs only 25% more than Economy. But that is 25% more than FULL economy, and roughly double what most leisure travellers pay in Economy class. And I'm sorry, but at double the cost of discount Economy I expect near-Business class cuisine, not the Economy serving plus a few crackers.

For the time being I will continue to buy Premium Economy tickets only while I am Gold Elite and know that I can upgrade to Business Premier. But the current Premium Economy product is scarcely better than the airline's ordinary Economy class, which is an indisputable world-beater.

By the way, the solution to the problems would be simple. The entire upstairs could be Business Premier - the airline can't currently meet demand at all - and the first ten rows of Economy (3-4-3) could be replaced with Premium Economy (3-3-3).

A few months ago I wondered whether in the post-767 world next year it would be better to fly from AKL to PPT ...
a) in Premium Economy on the non-stop three-class 777 service, which will continue on to LAX or
b) in Business Class on the two-class A320 service via Rarotonga.

I expected that Premium Economy would be the better way. I was wrong - now I know that it's just a glorified Economy seat. Having seen Premium Economy, I know that it is only worthwhile as an upgrade staging-post, or at a knockdown price. I really feel for anyone in the UK market who pays £1500 for the current product!

Thank you for the report.

I had to do the 190cm conversion, it sounds as if you are a giant. 6'3" in layman's language. I'm similar height, 6'4".
The legroom sounds good, but seat and armrest width is disappointing. If one had a window seat, the armrest width would not be quite as bad.

I will stick to my hopes of a last minute BP award seat.

Adding my thanks for the report too.

Questions though, if you would be so kind.

What seat were you in?
I'm delighted to hear the under window storage bins have been kept though this is likely to be little use to the person in the C seat? AB and JK pax could reach them but not C? Could you comment on that? (And appreciate that the C seat has the easiest access to the overhead bins.)
With respect to those under window bins, presumably they're also out of range for row 23 - the front row in the cabin?

One observation.
I flew in a refit aircraft on Sept 27 in Y and one thing that really bugged me was that the armrests didn't raise to the vertical, they only got as far as about the 2 o'clock position - which is effectively useless if you want the armrest up. Something to do with the AVOD circuitry I believe. So in Premium Economy you're probably caught both ways? You don't get a wider seat and you can't raise the armrest their either?

For the time being I will continue to buy Premium Economy tickets only while I am Gold Elite and know that I can upgrade to Business Premier.Only Gold Elites can upgrade?

As for which seats are better worse, here are my incomplete observations:

My seat, 24K (window on right-hand side) had an IFE box under the seat in front, which partially obstructs your leg-room. On the other hand, the window seat does get the side storage bins and extra space to put drinks etc on them. I didn't see which seat(s) have the IFE on the left hand side of seats. 24J does not have the IFE box.

The front row of premium economy (row 23) is an exit row and has extra legroom - but only one window. The flight attendant jump seats are in front of you for take-off and landing.

The recline is better than a standard economy seat (Air NZ claims 50% more) - I found it sufficient for a few hours of comfortable sleep.

I tend to agree with other comments that there isn't enough differentiation between economy and premium economy to justify paying the full U fare. Even just providing something closer to a business-class meal service would make it more attractive, in my opinion. However, the seats are comfortable and the extra leg-room is welcome - so I think its a good deal if you can get it at a discount or as an upgrade.

One other thing I forgot to mention - the airshow wasn't working on my flight. Selecting it on the IFE just gave a blank screen. I neglected to ask about it - hopefully it has since been fixed.

The window seat is definitely the best if you want access to the bins. In the front row, 23K DOES have access to the bin. I'm not sure about 23A.

The premium economy arm rests don't raise up at all - since the tray table folds out of them. On the 747, the seat is slightly wider than a regular economy seat. I found the width of the seat itself more than sufficient, but I would have liked wider or separate arm-rests between the seats.

Only Gold Elites can upgrade?

Anyone can upgrade, but Gold Elite can confirm an upgrade in advance (at the "standby" cost).

2) The meal service doesn't match the price tag. This bit is important. Sure, the airline claims that Premium Economy costs only 25% more than Economy. But that is 25% more than FULL economy, and roughly double what most leisure travellers pay in Economy class. And I'm sorry, but at double the cost of discount Economy I expect near-Business class cuisine, not the Economy serving plus a few crackers.

I'm not aware of any other airline's Y+ product that would meet your requirements, then - on VS, for example, the only service difference is pre-takeoff champagne; on BA there's no difference. NZ seems to have *more* service differentiation than most.

Having said that, I agree that they should have tried harder with the seats - the pitch looks good, but everything else is too economy for my liking, especially the width.

This issue about that lack of seats and armrest width has been in discussion on these boards since January and in the case of the latter since several months ago, with members sayingBased on the size of other airlines premium cabins on long haul routes I would say that NZ has drastically underestimated the desire for premium service and underestimated the effect that not having beds and Y+ has had on sales - afterall what we are seeing now was supposed to go in in 2001 but a few little events sidetracked that enhancement.Given the fact that all our "expert" opinions regarding Pacific Premium have come true for NZ, maybe they need to look at making the entire downstairs BC cabin PP.How is Air New Zealand able to so flagrantly ignore anti-discrimination legislation in the US and Australia (and, I would hope, NZ itself?) by introducing a whole product line which specifically excludes disabled people?The only reason I can see that the seats are not up to standard we expected is that NZ did not want to shoot themselves in the foot by offering a Premium Economy that was good enough for companies to fly their employees in instead of Business. Afterall with a cheap Koru Club membership and a 2-2 premium economy on the upper deck is almost as good as the erstwhile business class.

Now as demand for Business Premier is clearly going to be much higher then expected there is no reason not to improve and increase the size of Premium Economy, perhaps even moving it all to the lower deck. Allthough there is some question as to if it would be possible to place 20 Business Premier suites on the upper deck.

The original poster has pretty much said it all but just to add a few comments.

I travelled in Premium Economy just recently.

I found the seat and seat pitch about right for the price.

Row 23 is the exit row which is probably the best seats.

Row 26 is probably the worst as the toilets are on the other side, so don't choose Row 26.

I didn't find the IFE box in the floor in front to be a problem.

The side bins are handy if you got lots of stuff and easy to get to if you want to get anything.

I would also recommend 24A 24K, 25A, 25K, are good for access to the side bin, also not sure but with those seats you could probably rest your legs across the top of the side bin.

Airshow was working on my flight but once airshow is on you can't listen to the music at the same time. Selecting each program took about 3 seconds for the machine to react. Cetainly the ability to start and stop the movie when you wanted was great.

One downside to the IFE is that it is not operational for 30 minutes into the flight and is turned off 30 minutes before landing, take this into consideration when watching a movie. It would be perfect if airshow was on during this 30 minute period instead of the fake scene of the water with the toi toi(spelling).

Don't bother bringing too much reading material you will find plenty of movies and CDs and short programs to keep you occupied. They even have a stash of magazines available if you get bored.

I think some tweaking of the food options is required. No salad was with the dinner, and I thought the beef maybe it was lasagna a bit heavy. The wine was good and water was available when ever you wanted it. I don't think there was any fruit with breakfast, and I hate orange juice in those tear of packets as the risk of spilling juice is too much. Water in those tear off things isn't a problem as it just drys.

I get to do a return flight in a couple of weeks so if you got something you want me to specifically check I can do this.

Yes I thought I was getting value for money.

Row 23 is the exit row which is probably the best seats ... I get to do a return flight in a couple of weeks so if you got something you want me to specifically check I can do this.
Now I remember the other question I wanted answered, which was, how restrictive do you think your legroom might be in 23C, which aligns with the Business Premier aisle in the front of the upper deck, on the assumption that that must be where the FA's would have to do any special navigating of the Business Premier trolleys?

I'm in 23A AKL-SFO on October 21 so will see for myself then, but was curious if you had a heads-up on it now.

If you are in Row 23, is their much disturbance from the food/grazing trolley between BP and Prem Y? For some reason, I imagine a fair amount of activity in that area. May disturb sleep/privacy.

I have little to add based on my AKL-SYD flight (NZ103, morning of Friday 4 Nov), but I was seated in row 23-- the only one in the whole row-- and FWIW, the service carts parked there did not impede legroom in any way. It was also absent protrusions for the door slides, and the crew seats were of course empty on such a short flight except for takeoff and landing. All in all a very nice experience indeed which made the SYD-LAX UA flight later that day seem all the shabbier by comparison.

Actually, I was surprised to have been seated in Pacific Premium at all as it was a *A award ticket using United miles. The agent referred to a reconfigured a/c being placed on the route, thus requiring reassignment; I assume I got row 23 on account of *G status.

[Resurrecting an old thread]

I just flew LAX-LHR in Premium Economy and I wasn't impressed. I'm not sure what bothered me most, but I feel that the flight attendants and I just didn't gel.

(NB. I flew Business AKL-LAX 10 days ago, so my viewpoint is slightly skewed since I haven't done really long haul in economy for a few years..).

1) No pre-departure drink, which I'm pretty sure there is supposed to be, but I may be wrong. The majority of business class did not take one, resulting in many glasses presumably just being thrown out, when they could have been given to PE pax.

When I asked if I may have one (politely), I was given a look like I was on crack.

2) Food is standard economy fare, with the business class cheese, which I guess is OK.

3) Other than wine, we weren't really given many options for alcohol. They did not make mention of the 42 Below cocktails, which is disappointing. Admittedly, the ones currently on the services are absolutely terrible, but still....

4) It felt like there was no particular recognition of the class of service. With business reasonably empty upstairs, it didn't seem like there was a huge amount of work for the flight attendants to be doing.

5) It really just felt like economy quality. They did call by name (off the manifest), but no recognition of Status. Minor things that could have made pax happier like giving them business headsets were a no-no.

All that said, the seat seemed fine for the price of the product (in my case, an upgrade from Economy, but I have other PE legs booked). I was able to sleep in it with ease. I did find that it was particularly annoying having the remote right next to my right hip (23C), as I did often randomly change channels as I squirmed in the seat.

The footrest is completely useless. I'm not tall (5'10"/178cm), but I definitely couldn't sleep using it because it restricts you so much into one position.

I was in the exit row, on the aisle, and had a ton of legroom - there were no service carts placed in front of us, either.

Interestingly, the gentleman in 23A asked if it would be possible to join his wife (downstairs in business), and he was op-upped after take-off. This let the guy in 23B move to 23A and we had an empty seat between us. Without it, with 3 men in one row, it did feel a little... packed.

I'm really not sure what it is - I can't quite put my finger on it - but I came away from the flight feeling.. unsatisfied. I'm thinking of writing to Air NZ about it. Maybe it's just an LHR based crew thing? The NZ based crew have always been so good IME.

aj

I agree with ajnz - and not because we have both sat in 23C this year LAX-LHR! I wonder if those front seats in PE are narrower because of the seat tray in the arm but they need to be wider as I am only average size - 75kg ,and the foot rest is worse than useless for my height of 178cm.

My PE experience was a points for upgrade and I did wonder if the experience was somewhat diasppointing because over the preceeding 3 months I had used my complimentary upgrades and points to fly in business class. Overall I was left with the feeling that as I was running short on airpoints and can usually only afford to pay for one AKL-LHR rtn in biz each year I would definitely consider paying PE in the hope that I could use points to upgrade to biz on that ticket. Also I think it is only one complimentary upgrade per sector from PE to Biz as opposed to 2 from economy to Biz premier and I feel it is better value from PE to biz for the use of one upgrade. Several of my flights (usually AKL-LAX-LHR vv) have been very full - indeed once at check-in at LA they apologised for seating me and my partner on opposite sides of the cabin when we had used points to upgrade to biz, but did we care! We got the impression we were lucky to be there.

I also felt they could have acknowledged my NZGE status even though I was only in PE. Interestingly on two previous sectors earlier in year when I had used points to upgrade to Biz premier the chief purser (now has some new title sorry) had come round and personally thanked me for my continued loyalty in flying AirNZ - small things like this count and make you feel it is all worthwhile when your upgrade request doesn't come off and you are back in economy! It is often the little things - could PE not have glasses as opposed to plastic cups for wine, although the desert wine comes in a glass.

There was an intersting comparison in the US published Conde Naste earlier this year on premium economy classes - it did not appear in the UK edition. As I recall NZ and SQ premium economy weren't seen as great value for money. Apart from UA's premium economy, which only gives more leg room and nothing else, I have not flown SQ,TG,BD,SK, or VS premium economy so cannot comment.

Thanks for all this information. A few things

1) Even in BP I don't recall the FA's actually offering the 42 below cocktails. Didn't stop me ordering one which they happily provided. Was nicer than expected too

2) The comparisons, where present, seem to be between PE and BP although the price is still closer to Y. Would predominantly Y travellers feel the same regarding PE seat and service?

3) I guess having no status on NZ, i'm happy enough for them not to overtly recognise status (of course on UA I expect it :) ) On UA they give 1K's first meal choice but this seems irrelevant on NZ as most people seem to get their first choice (although I did note one pax not get his choice). There did seem to be lots of food go to waste, wonder how long this lasts

Jeff

How strange. I just reserved seats for my upcoming PE flights, but the agent (in HK) insisted that row 22 was the front one and that the furthest forward we could get was row 23. Have those seats reserved for 3 of the 4 legs, and 24JK for the last one. Not sure what the deal is, as seatguru clearly shows that 23 is the front seat. She said that the front row on the right side was blocked out as there was a bassinet there and they were reserved for people with a kid. Given that these seats separate the PE from the BP, I suspect that the bassinet line was an excuse to put the HK locals off the seats, and that they'll be opened to *A elites or Koru on the day.

Thanks for all this information. A few things

1) Even in BP I don't recall the FA's actually offering the 42 below cocktails. Didn't stop me ordering one which they happily provided. Was nicer than expected too



Yes, but you have a drinks menu which they don't hand out in PE even though they advertise 'business class drinks' as one of the perks, which I find a bit cheeky.

First post to Flyer Talk, but have read the forums a lot.

I find Premium Economy on Air NZ far better than UA or BA. Having experienced on my usual AKL-LAX run the old NZ First (on a comp upgrade), new and old business, through to plain old economy (when an upgrade didn't come though), PE is fine and worth the expense. It is also easier to get a comp upgrade to business from here than from standard economy.
I also find the footrest useless, as did ajnz, no upper leg support and being just over 6 ft, it isn't long enough to be useful. But the extra leg room is great, and that to me is critical. Across the pacific there is little competition and costs are high. So budgets limit the choices, which is not the case to Europe.
I also find using the right side of the 747, where there are only 2 seats in the row, better. The last flight I did from LAX in March my comp upgrade didn't come through and the consolation prize was: no-one beside me, a nice apology from the head FA (not sure of correct title here) about being full in business. She knew my name as well, which was a nice touch.
The food is nothing special, as most reports indicate, but I enjoyed a few ports from the business cabin to help me sleep on the way home. Can't complain about that.

How strange. I just reserved seats for my upcoming PE flights, but the agent (in HK) insisted that row 22 was the front one and that the furthest forward we could get was row 23. Have those seats reserved for 3 of the 4 legs, and 24JK for the last one. Not sure what the deal is, as seatguru clearly shows that 23 is the front seat. She said that the front row on the right side was blocked out as there was a bassinet there and they were reserved for people with a kid. Given that these seats separate the PE from the BP, I suspect that the bassinet line was an excuse to put the HK locals off the seats, and that they'll be opened to *A elites or Koru on the day.
Unless there are several different 747 configurations, the agent you talked to was simply wrong :td:
Row 23 is the front row in PE on the upper deck, and as far as I cold tell there were no bassinet locations there. In fact, since the room between Row23 and BP is the emergency doors, I doubt it would be allowed as a bassinet location.

I generally liked NZ's PE, but then I am one of those accustomed to flying Y (as my company won't pay for business class :( )

On the drink selection, I also found that you had to ask about the 42 Below cocktails, but when I did I got the BP drinks menu and they were happy make me one ^

I agree that PE is probably worth the expense long haul across the pacific, although I think 31C (exit row, economy) is probably about the same too.

I paid for PE AKL-LAX (upgraded to business), then Economy LAX-LHR (upgraded to PE), then PE LAX-AKL (upgrade pending).

Obviously demand is strong - I could not get a seat on SFO-AKL in PE, and it was completely full on LAX-LHR. I don't know how full it was on my AKL-LAX flight though.

But... I think it's lacking. It's still just economy, but they sell it as a premium service. They should be automatically handing out the business class drinks menu.

Being in the exit row the legroom was infinite for me (row 23); so that was good. I didn't try sitting in any of the other seats, but I would guess that it is still significantly better than UA E+ (35" or so) and standard NZ Economy.

I do have two questions though:

1) Is PE entitled to the pre-departure drinks?
2) Are PE pax (or *G) entitled to the fast track passes?

At least you got business class drinks. When I was in PE (upgrade didnt clear) all we got was economy drinks :td:

No pre-departure drinks.
I doubt you'd get LHR fast track, but not sure since I wasnt flying there.

Welcome to FT, Buzz53!

I've travelled PE twice in the past month, once from Japan and once to LAX. I was skeptical about the service from the pictures but decided to give a try for future reference. I was pleasantly surprised and found the extra space so my knees (I'm not even tall at 5'8") don't touch the seat in front. I have a couple of observations:

1. PE is more comfortable in the 777 to Narita than the 747 to LA. the 777 (or is it 767?) puts just two rows of PE in a separate cabin that shares the toilets with business premier. It was very quiet and peaceful with little traffic from passengers and no carts at all. The upstairs of the 747 doesn't seem as nice, has a bunch of carts going back and forth and just seems unpleasant to see the BP in the front getting drinks, service, etc.
2. I expect a pre-flight drink. Maybe becuase i'm used to flying Business class upstairs. how ahrd can that be? Second, and more importat, i expect a DRINK of the cocktail variety quickly after takeoff. We were never offered this on the way to LAX. I find this disturbing. I personally have a routine to cope with the travel and sleep that includes a G&T.
3.The seats in the last row do not have quite as much incline as the others in the 747 configuration. (I think they are the same in the 777 configuraiton)


last, i have a question. Seatguru shows power points for most of the seats. Dothese really exist? I couldn't find it, but then, i didn't really need it either.

last, i have a question. Seatguru shows power points for most of the seats. Dothese really exist? I couldn't find it, but then, i didn't really need it either.
Had no problem with power on the AKL-LAX 747 in PE. On the right side with 2 seats, the power socket is between the seats, down low near the bottom of the console (90% sure that's where it is).

last, i have a question. Seatguru shows power points for most of the seats. Dothese really exist? I couldn't find it, but then, i didn't really need it either.I think I posted this elsewhere, though don't know where. But anyway, in PE upstairs on the 747, in the JK seats, the socket for the J seat is in the very tip of the shared armrest, under a small metal flap. On the K seat it's in the front of the window-side armrest. You can't see either when you're sitting down, and can't see the J one even standing up until you lift the flap.

If the PE seat is not any wider than standard economy, is it worth paying for PE to SYD/MEL, or just using UA and getting E+ free with *Gold?

premium economy is wider than economy - not by much on the 777 (still 9 across) but more noticeably on 747

Does anyone have a view on the best seats in Premium Economy on ANZ 777's (to be with 4 rows)? Is row 23D,E and F OK for legroom with the bulkhead in the centre of the plane?

I flew in 23D last month and the leg room was absolutely fine. I sat next to a couple as well, which was really good - whenever the lady wanted to get out, she always went past her husband, meaning that I was never woken up by someone climbing over my legs.

Having flown both, I certainly prefer the 747 layout (especially upstairs), but now that the planes have changed and we have a small child, it's back to Y for me...