America West FlightFund (Pre-2005 US Airways merger) - HP F/As are hurting

FYI

Are you aware when this HP/US air merger goes through, as it stand now it will will negatively effecting all the Flight attendant at HP. Namely, due to AFA (union) pushing for Date of Hire in "seniority" for the new US airways, HP crew is at disadvantage. Specifically, US airways is more than 40+ years old while HP is only 22 years old. Hence, the majority of HP F/A either will be "at the bottom of list" way behind most of US F/As, or ( there is a very strong possibility), end up on the unemployement line after this merger. Is there anyway we could help them, to get out from this predicament?

FYI

Are you aware when this HP/US air merger goes through, as it stand now it will will negatively effecting all the Flight attendant at HP. Namely, due to AFA (union) pushing for Date of Hire in "seniority" for the new US airways, HP crew is at disadvantage. Specifically, US airways is more than 40+ years old while HP is only 22 years old. Hence, the majority of HP F/A either will be "at the bottom of list" way behind most of US F/As, or ( there is a very strong possibility), end up on the unemployement line after this merger. Is there anyway we could help them, to get out from this predicament?

in a word, no. since both workgroups are represented by AFA, they automatically must follow AFA national bylaws, which are the strictest in the industry on the subject.

they will be able to negotiate things like bidding rights at the various bases, but not the "hiring" seniority that determines who gets laid off when.

In the old days, the more senior you were, the less you worked and the more you made. The labor costs incurred by a senior workforce were stifling in the deregulated environment.

I'd venture a guess that when AFA campaigned at HP, they sold the flight attendants on the protection afforded them as AFA members in case of acquisition or merger.

They'll get what they signed up for.

Yes it is something that we are all worried about. I am in the passenger service group (ticket/gate agents) and we have concerns over seniority dates. The company is still trying to come up with a plan to present to the unions, hopefully that would include "dove-tailing" which works out pretty good from what I hear. Who knows....It's not such a big deal to me...I've worked there for about 5 years but life goes on...I'll deal with what ever happens.

Yes it is something that we are all worried about. I am in the passenger service group (ticket/gate agents) and we have concerns over seniority dates. The company is still trying to come up with a plan to present to the unions, hopefully that would include "dove-tailing" which works out pretty good from what I hear. Who knows....It's not such a big deal to me...I've worked there for about 5 years but life goes on...I'll deal with what ever happens.

management gets to offer suggestions, but gets no actual role in producing the merged seniority lists. for the pilots, ALPA has criteria established to guide the outcome, only one of which is date of hire. a weighted "dove-tailing" outcome is likely. outside of bidding rights, however, the F/A's are SOL because AFA's hire date rule has no exceptions.

I did not know, that there is such an animosity (sp?) towards HP f/a, THAT WARRANT "SOL".. I do not have knowledge re: why, how, etc they went with AFA, the only knowledge I have: a., that they are loyal to the company; b., they work markedly less wages than the legacy airline F/A's. c., they were promised by different CEO's if we make $$ you will be rewarded, too. With, this merger it is questionablle if they will have a job past 1.5 years fence agreement.

"old" US = east coast, HP = west coast. Do you really think that there will be a lot of "old" US F/A's wanting to move west? I highly doubt it. I have many F/A friends here in PIT and some already have been reassigned to CLT or PHL. They have to commute until they can move (at their expense). Do you really think there will be a mass exodus to the west by F/A's that have to pay to move?

Again, HIGHLY DOUBTFUL. As a very good friend told me this weekend....he's not moving. He's on involuntary "extended" furlough and he's been assigned to CLT for when his furlough is over.

The fences will stand for more than 1.5 years too. By the time that its time for those fences to come down there may not be any "old" US F/A's to worry about anyway.

Why do you seem to so concerned about the F/A's anyway? Dating one like I am?

NO, I am not dating any F/A or pilots. I am just interested in the human aspect of this merger, which lots of people are forgetting. Most of the time in this kind of event we ( I am guilty of it myself) only think "how will it effect me"? Thus , this time I am trying to be walking in the other persons shoes.

I am sorry for any one who needs to travel hrs to start earning $. There are many former PSA employees who commute to the East Coast and I am sure it will be markedly easier for them not "to shuttle " for at least 4 hrs , etc.

Based on my training and practice, I look at the human aspect of the events. being a merger , downsizing, outsourcing, etc .

thank you for listening.

i may be in the minority, but i think its crap that any HP employee gets the ax b/c of the inability to figure out a fair way to merge seniority lists.

I hate to say it US but your doors would be shutting any day if not for HP and every high seniority employee would be low on the list at the unemployment office.

I sure hope the unions and managment of both companies can avoid the catastrophe that happened with AA and TWA, although it would be the other way around with the weaker company winning in terms of seniority.

That is what you get when you deal with unions........

Philadelphia Inquirer Article
See entire article here (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/12554016.htm)

Both the Air Line Pilots Association and the Association of Flight Attendants, which represent employees at both companies, have policies that call for the unions to negotiate their own agreements for integrating seniority lists. If the groups can't reach an agreement, an arbitrator would devise a solution.

Among the ways that the seniority of many employees may be protected is for the groups to agree to "fence off" certain pilot and flight attendant bases such as Philadelphia and Phoenix, preventing senior workers from other bases from bumping more junior employees out of their jobs, union officials said.

The fences will stand for more than 1.5 years too. By the time that its time for those fences to come down there may not be any "old" US F/A's to worry about anyway.


there's no disputing that there will be fences, and no, no one wants to move for the most part. but the fact remains that HP f/a's are getting a very raw deal that is only a little better than the rawest possible "staple to the bottom of the list" deal that TW f/a's got. it's particularly galling because it's the HP f/a's who are in the acquiring camp.

the question is what happens when there are downsizings? and there will be, even if times don't ever go bad after the merger-- the publicly announced target workforce size is ca 35,000 post-merger. HP staff get canned from the west, and US staff get involuntary transfers westwards, just as TW's "fenced" STL base is now staffed solely with involuntarily transferred AA f/a's.

Have to reply to these posts - I have been an AWA flight attendant for 21 years. If this merger goes down, I am powerless to stop the date of hire policy that is in place by my union AFA unless a MAJOR outpouring takes place. This DOH policy will affect my career for as long as I work here. I respect Doug Parker for what he has done to turn this airline around and make me proud to be an employee. Even he has stated that he does not one single AWA employee to be harmed by this merger. Well, if AFA National has their way and we go with DOH, then EVERY AWA flight attendant will feel that effect for the rest of their careers. We are trying to band together and get the word out, but we are very troubled as to what the future holds. USAir right now is proposing a 1 1/2 year fence, meaning that after that time the number of USAir f/a coming into PHX - based on those leaving (usually junior f/a) will happen. If that number coming in is senior to me then I move down in seniority which affects EVERY aspect of my life. We really want this to work out, we want the product to remain stable (and get better) but we do not want to see any AWA employee getting screwed in the meantime. The DOH policy is not a by-law and CAN be changed at the BOD meeting in October. Hopefully we will have our "ducks in a row" by then. Your "HOMETOWN AIRLINE" employees will fight this as long as we can. We have been here since the beginning and we will be here in the end.

If memory serves correctly, under the Railway Labor Act, once a labor group elects representation by a union they cannot reverse their decision. They must be represented by a union. Perhaps the HP F/A's should reconsider their representation and call for a vote to form an in-house union. This might give them the bargaining power in the acquisition of US they hope for.

The only reason I fly HP is because of the great service from their F/A's.The food in F class sucks.
I hope Doug Parker takes this into consideration.

If memory serves correctly, under the Railway Labor Act, once a labor group elects representation by a union they cannot reverse their decision. They must be represented by a union. Perhaps the HP F/A's should reconsider their representation and call for a vote to form an in-house union. This might give them the bargaining power in the acquisition of US they hope for.

Unless there is some special consideration in transportation unions, a labor group can de-certify a union. In other words, vote them out. Just as they voted them in. Goes through the NLRB just as any election It happens once in a while. Not very likely but it is possible.

At this point it would be easier to get the DOH removed and allow a more fair integration of seniority. We are under a time crunch here as the merger is within 60 days. We have Doug's backing to protect us AWA employees, but AFA National Pat Friend is the one that is telling him "the unions" will handle seniority not management. :(

We have Doug's backing to protect us AWA employees, but AFA National Pat Friend is the one that is telling him "the unions" will handle seniority not management. :(

she's right-- the RLA says that the unions handle seniority integration. AFA's national board has sole control over the governing policy.

I could stick my foot in my mouth here, but will refrain from doing so. There is a way around this and they have <60 days to address it, but it would cause a heck of a stink in PHL, I am sure.

Dependent on how strongly the HP employees feel, they could put a kabosh to using DOH as the sole metric for who gets what.

Sorry for being vague, but I am sure that the HP employee leaders are aware of how to do this. I don't want to be accused of taking one side or the other. I hope that the HP employees come out of this positively, but have a feeling they won't as I haven't heard the magic words from the HP employee leaders.

management gets to offer suggestions, but gets no actual role in producing the merged seniority lists. for the pilots, ALPA has criteria established to guide the outcome, only one of which is date of hire. a weighted "dove-tailing" outcome is likely. outside of bidding rights, however, the F/A's are SOL because AFA's hire date rule has no exceptions.

Management has some more flexibility than that. It can simply: (a) can the merger, (b) outsource flight attendants, (c) simply buy the assets and not the workers, and all sorts of other creative things. I am not so sure it is all so one sided. It is all part of a negotiation. All in all, the USAir employees should be thanking GOD for this merger, for without it, they'd be on the street.

management gets to offer suggestions, but gets no actual role in producing the merged seniority lists. for the pilots, ALPA has criteria established to guide the outcome, only one of which is date of hire. a weighted "dove-tailing" outcome is likely. outside of bidding rights, however, the F/A's are SOL because AFA's hire date rule has no exceptions.


While reading http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=awa I came accross the message board which list posting from USair as well as AWA pilots. They seem to have very heated discussion US=yes for DOH while HP== No DOH. There is no talk what so ever about other options. Hence, they integration prosses as much in jeoperty (sp?) as the AWA F/A.

I wonder what KevAz was making vague reference to: as employees option.

Management has some more flexibility than that. It can simply: (a) can the merger, (b) outsource flight attendants, (c) simply buy the assets and not the workers, and all sorts of other creative things.

(a) the seniority integration doesn't happen until the merger closes and merged labor agreements are in place. they could walk away before the deal closes, of course, but it seems unlikely given how keen HP management is on the deal. (b) no, labor contracts don't allow that. (c) not viable--might as well be (a).

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0907flightattendants.html

This article references the website www.union-ethics.com

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0907flightattendants.html

This article references the website www.union-ethics.com


Which is BIG part of the problem - we have NO leadership from our union president.

Which is BIG part of the problem - we have NO leadership from our union president.

This is why, in the airline arena, a union is not always the answer!

In 1981 I was represented by AFA when President Reagan fired the air traffic controllers; lost my job and no assistance from AFA. Ultimately got out of the business after stints with four airlines (including a 4 month job with HP selling tickets in the produce department of a Smitty's grocery store). Believe me, things could be far worse than adjusted system seniority.

I hope that the HP employees come out of this positively, but have a feeling they won't as I haven't heard the magic words from the HP employee leaders.
After reading the article in the Republic this morning and the in-depth details on the union web site, I am convinced that it is too late for AWA FAs. A recall will do nothing for them, they have to take a much larger step and it appears that they are unwilling to do so.

Ah well, that's really sad. There were some truly great FAs that will receive the short end of a stick out of all of this.

After reading the article in the Republic this morning and the in-depth details on the union web site, I am convinced that it is too late for AWA FAs. A recall will do nothing for them, they have to take a much larger step and it appears that they are unwilling to do so.


short of decertifying AFA, what can HP f/a's do if the AFA national board is uncooperative?

short of decertifying AFA, what can HP f/a's do if the AFA national board is uncooperative?

BINGO!!!!!!

They made a decision concerning unions... and now they must deal with it.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but with living with your choice.

They made a decision concerning unions... and now they must deal with it.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but with living with your choice.

choice of union isn't an irrevocable choice. while it is uncommon, unions do get decertified all the time. UA's mechanics decertified IAM and went with AMFA instead.

short of decertifying AFA, what can HP f/a's do if the AFA national board is uncooperative?


What you need to do as a union is stick together vote no and force this to arbitration, then you may have a chance to go against the AFA policy of DOH. The pilots have pooled funds and retained counsel just for this, the F/A's should also.

FYI

Are you aware when this HP/US air merger goes through, as it stand now it will will negatively effecting all the Flight attendant at HP. Namely, due to AFA (union) pushing for Date of Hire in "seniority" for the new US airways, HP crew is at disadvantage. Specifically, US airways is more than 40+ years old while HP is only 22 years old. Hence, the majority of HP F/A either will be "at the bottom of list" way behind most of US F/As, or ( there is a very strong possibility), end up on the unemployement line after this merger. Is there anyway we could help them, to get out from this predicament?
I'm missing something here. I doubt that all US F/As have more than 22 years of service (this would mean that they have hired zero F/As since 1983). I don't expect that the combined entity would lay off all F/As with less than 22 years (I would guess that they would have to lay off 2/3 of all F/As to get there). My guess is that layoffs might catch the last 5 years or less. If that is the case, why should a HP person with, for example, 2 years of service be kept and a US person with 8 years be laid off?

My guess is that layoffs might catch the last 5 years or less. If that is the case, why should a HP person with, for example, 2 years of service be kept and a US person with 8 years be laid off?

because it's not a merger of equals; it's HP picking up the carcass of a dead US Air...

getting an abitrator to agree to go against the union rule seems quite a longshot.

I'm missing something here. I doubt that all US F/As have more than 22 years of service (this would mean that they have hired zero F/As since 1983). I don't expect that the combined entity would lay off all F/As with less than 22 years (I would guess that they would have to lay off 2/3 of all F/As to get there). My guess is that layoffs might catch the last 5 years or less. If that is the case, why should a HP person with, for example, 2 years of service be kept and a US person with 8 years be laid off?

It's always interesting when people discuss union dominated jobs. For us non-union management types, layoffs hit very unequally. Last week, my company went through layoffs. Both of the people layed off in my department had much more senority than I did. Yet, I still have a job and they don't.

That being said, the lists should be combined fairly. The HP FA's should NOT be stapled at or near the bottom of the list.

FYI

Are you aware when this HP/US air merger goes through, as it stand now it will will negatively effecting all the Flight attendant at HP. Namely, due to AFA (union) pushing for Date of Hire in "seniority" for the new US airways, HP crew is at disadvantage. Specifically, US airways is more than 40+ years old while HP is only 22 years old. Hence, the majority of HP F/A either will be "at the bottom of list" way behind most of US F/As, or ( there is a very strong possibility), end up on the unemployement line after this merger. Is there anyway we could help them, to get out from this predicament?

Given that U was essentially a liquidated carrier, the only fair solution is to staple the U seniority to the botton of the AWA list.

from usaviation.com


http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22451


the DOH applies and this subject is officially closed by the AFA union.

Yes the DOH proposal got shot down at the AFA BOD meeting in PSP. We are now hoping for a significant fence in PHX that will protect our jobs. We have no idea when we will hear anything regarding this.

FYI

Are you aware when this HP/US air merger goes through, as it stand now it will will negatively effecting all the Flight attendant at HP. Namely, due to AFA (union) pushing for Date of Hire in "seniority" for the new US airways, HP crew is at disadvantage. Specifically, US airways is more than 40+ years old while HP is only 22 years old. Hence, the majority of HP F/A either will be "at the bottom of list" way behind most of US F/As, or ( there is a very strong possibility), end up on the unemployement line after this merger. Is there anyway we could help them, to get out from this predicament?


Get over it. It has already been decided. Date of Hire will stand. I have no sympathy for HP F/As, many of them do not want US F/As to come to their base in Phoenix, yet the ones with high seniority want to transfer to CLT and PHL bases.

Good luck with the merger. Using DOH as the gold standard is just one of many reasons why I don't like unions. Performance should also play a factor.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that Parker and crew continue Above and Beyond as a program to recognize excellent FAs. There are many AWA FAs who provide such friendly and excellent service that are super marketing machines for the company, and they should be rewarded for it. :-: :-: :-:

I also hope that this episode will demonstrate to union employees one of the negatives of unions' approach to the workforce, and that going forward they will accept reasonable discipline for poor service as ........reasonable.

I do have to admire some of the US FAs for putting up with a small but loud minority of pax that are jerks by treating the FAs as personal servants. I've encountered more of these PITAs on US than any other carrier worldwide. Who knows why? I attribute that minority's attitude to akin to being a "Platinum" customer at WalMart. Whoop de doo! :rolleyes:

There are certainly downsides to union organization, which most members don't think about in the organization process. They're "sold" security, protection and relative isolation from the actions of management, all seemingly good things -- at the time.

Ironically, in this case, it is quite possible that management would be the HP FA's strongest asset, but they chose some years back to emasculate them, no doubt for seemingly good reasons at the time. Now, for better or worse, their fate is in the hands of the union management, where they chose to place it. I hope it was worth it to them.

They made a decision concerning unions... and now they must deal with it.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but with living with your choice.

Problem is that the "they" who decided to unionize are not the "they" that we have now, and as has been pointed out before, decertifying a union is very hard (and even harder in an industry covered by the Railway Labor Act).

/carmi

I'm missing something here. I doubt that all US F/As have more than 22 years of service (this would mean that they have hired zero F/As since 1983).

Seriously, I'm not sure they have hired any new F/As since '83, at least based on my recent travel. Even NW seems to have younger cabin crews.

(tongue thoroughly in cheek and apologies to anyone offended) :p

...I hope it was worth it to them.

I have a feeling they would tell you it was worth it.

I have a feeling they would tell you it was worth it.

At the moment, perhaps, but if this stays on the course it appears it is on, unfortunately I suspect a significant number will ultimately change their mind.

I'm missing something here. I doubt that all US F/As have more than 22 years of service (this would mean that they have hired zero F/As since 1983). I don't expect that the combined entity would lay off all F/As with less than 22 years (I would guess that they would have to lay off 2/3 of all F/As to get there). My guess is that layoffs might catch the last 5 years or less. If that is the case, why should a HP person with, for example, 2 years of service be kept and a US person with 8 years be laid off?


The most junior US flight attendants currently flying were hired in 1998. There are others that are more junior, but are currently on furlough.

Seriously, I'm not sure they have hired any new F/As since '83, at least based on my recent travel. Even NW seems to have younger cabin crews.

(tongue thoroughly in cheek and apologies to anyone offended) :p


:) Just because you have a crew of FA's that are older it doesn't mean that they are senior. Many of the airlines hired FA's in their mid 40's in hopes that they would only like to to fly for a short time(10-15 yrs) then retire.

I hope all works out for the employees of AWA/US

I feel that "Date of Hire" should rule.
Which is why I don't understand why Hp Flt Attendants are being placed on the seniority list behind all US Flt Attendants.

USAirways was recently in bankruptcy for the 2nd time in almost as many years. They appeared to close to doom until an investor showed up. That investor of course being America West Holdings (or whatever the corporate name is). USAirways was re;eased from bankruptcy on the condition that they sell out to HP. Son on that day, weren't all (most) US employees hired by HP?

The fact that internally, they will operate as separate carriers for a couple of years is irreleveant.
The fact that HP intends to market both of its airlines as one, and of the 2 names it owns it has decided on US, is irrelevant.
USAirways died. The US employess should be grateful that they weren't all laid off in Chapter 7. And they should be thankful that thru fate, the name of company they've worked for will live on. But they work for HP now.

And I thot that in most airline mergers, once the seniority lists were combined, you could not use you seniority to "cross-bump" another employee. By "cross-bump" I mean that if I were an "ex" US crew member, I could not use my senority to "bump" an "HP" employee out of PHX. I would have to wait until there was an opening in PHX. At that time my senority may trump an "HP" employee who has been trying to transfer to PHX for years. Can you imagine the chaos if "US" employees could just bump any "HP" employee ??? It's worse with the pilots because for them it's not only their base station but also the aircraft type (larger planes generally pay more $$$) and the seat (ie: Captain vs First Officer)

Steve