Independence Air iClub - Horrible Experience

A week ago today, my 17 year old son and his classmate had a flight booked to Cleveland from Wash.Dulles on Indep. Air. They had been in Wash. for 3 weeks on a program. Anyhow, my son's flight was scheduled to leave at 4:20 p.m. on July 17. They got to the airport, and was told the flight was cancelled due to inclement weather. There was a 9:15 p.m. flight out of Wash., but it was booked. IA rebooked them on an 8:30 a.m. flight on Mon. morning. They got to the airport at 7:30 a.m., and were told the flight was cancelled. There was a 10:30 a.m. flight, but it was oversold. The next flight was at 3:00 p.m. that day.
When I found out the 8:30 a.m. flight was cancelled, I spoke to a supervisor in the Wash. IA office. I spent 20 minutes demanding that my son be put on the 10:30 flight. Beryl (the supervisor) told me he couldn't do that since it was overbooked. I said, then bump someone from that flight. I argued that my son had already been inconvenienced by not being put on the 9:30 flight the day before, and then get to the airport the next day, only to find out the 8:30 a.m. flight was cancelled. I said it was ridiculous to force him to wait until the 3:00 flight on Monday, almost 24 hours later than his originally scheduled flight. I said why was it O.K. to inconvenience my son, and make him sit around at the airport almost 8 hours because IA refused to put him on the 10:30 flight. I said bump someone from the 10:30 a.m. flight to the 3:00 p.m. flight. Beryl wouldn't budge. After 20 minutes of me yelling at him, he tells me a seat "just opened up" on the 10:30 flight, and booked my son. I immediately called my son and told him that. He called back shortly thereafter to tell me that when he went to the boarding pass counter, the clerk told, " I see you are confirmed on this flight, but I have no seat for you!" At this point, I had to leave for work, since there was nothing further I could do. My son did finally arrive home on that 3:00 p.m. flight.
Long story short, I would NEVER EVER use IA again, nor would I advise anyone else whose flight gets cancelled to trust IA to book them on the next flight. By far, the worst experience I have ever encountered from an airline.

Hi, and welcome to Flyertalk.

I"m sorry your son had a rotten experience -- he could've driven from D.C. to Cleveland in about eight hours -- but the standby-for-next-available-seat drill is standard on ANY airline. If your flight is cancelled, you are rebooked on the next AVAILABLE seat to your destination, not the next seat already occupied by another customer. The carrier won't bump customers with confirmed reservations on subsequent flights to get people like your son on their way, because now the airline has TWO unhappy customers instead of one.

If your son's flight had been on time and an earlier flight had been cancelled due to weather, how would you feel if your son were thrown off to accommodate people from the earlier trip?

You had an unfortunate experience, but if you are going to vow never to fly Indy again, you'd better not fly AA, UA, NW, AS, CO, DL, US, HP, etc. ever again either, because they all work that way.

I agree that bumping another passenger to make room for my son would have made for 2 unhappy passengers. But by that logic, if the next 3 flights out of Was.Dulles had been overboooked, then my son would have been stuck there another day. I still maintain that NO airline should just keep rescheduling the already inconvenienced passenger until a seat on some flight opens up-however long that takes. Bumping a passenger from the 10:30 flight to a 3:00 p.m. flight the SAME DAY is a hell of a lot less inconvenient than bumping my son-or anyone-from 4:30 p.m. one day till 3:00 the next day, no matter how you look at it.

Hi, and welcome to Flyertalk.

I"m sorry your son had a rotten experience -- he could've driven from D.C. to Cleveland in about eight hours -- but the standby-for-next-available-seat drill is standard on ANY airline. If your flight is cancelled, you are rebooked on the next AVAILABLE seat to your destination, not the next seat already occupied by another customer. The carrier won't bump customers with confirmed reservations on subsequent flights to get people like your son on their way, because now the airline has TWO unhappy customers instead of one.

If your son's flight had been on time and an earlier flight had been cancelled due to weather, how would you feel if your son were thrown off to accommodate people from the earlier trip?

You had an unfortunate experience, but if you are going to vow never to fly Indy again, you'd better not fly AA, UA, NW, AS, CO, DL, US, HP, etc. ever again either, because they all work that way.

True, carriers such as AA, UA, NW, AS, CO, DL, etc., may work this way when it comes to the 'standby' seat drill --- BUT they will also route their passengers on the lines of other carriers. However, with I-Air being an LCC, I doubt they have the ability to do a FIM and fly the passenger on CO, who operates non-stop to CLE; UA may fly non-stop to CLE likewise, if not via ORD, NW via DTW, DL via CVG, etc.

If the carrier at a particular station won't do an FIM because of WX, one can also approach another carrier and see if the carrier will accept their ticket at face value among the legacy carriers - even if it is a non-refundable, "Valid UA Only", etc. Sometimes they can pull the e-ticket, but may need a hard-copy receipt -- other times, if you can get your e-ticket converted to paper, it'll be accepted at face value.

Another reason to avoid LCC's - I guess AirTran would be the one exception since they do issue/accept FIMs with the re-routing of passengers.

In closing, I've had my *** saved a few times because of re-routing among legacy carriers. The one which sticks out the most: A December snowstorm in NYC a bit over a year ago. I was flying on NW from SDF-DTW-JFK. I was meeting someone at JFK who was flying in LHR-JFK on British Airways. Once at DTW, NW cancelled all flights to all NYC airports. CO had a delayed flight to EWR, which eventually went. I got a FIM and was put on this Continental flight. The CO flight got me into Newark in heavy snow around 11pm, about the time my colleague's flight was due in at JFK. I took the AirTrain & NJTranit into NYC and picked up the Subway to JFK airport. This was just prior to the JFK AirTrain opening. I got onto the shuttle to terminal and I got a call on my mobile from my colleage saying "I just arrived, where are you?". A few minutes later the shuttle dropped me off at the BA terminal and we met up.

It turned out his BA flight did arrive on-time at 11:00pm, but they sat on the tarmac for almost 3 hours waiting for a gate because of the heavy snow. Shortly after, JFK, EWR, and LGA all closed for nearly two days.

If NWA did not do an FIM to Continental for me, I would have been stuck in Detroit. Most likely I would have flown back to SDF the next morning and my colleage which had flown in from London, he would have flown back to London just as the snowstorm was ending -- this would have resulted in two trips in vain. Legacy carriers have things like this in place to handle passengers during irregular operations.

SDF_Traveler

It was my understanding that one of DH's main selling points at the outset was that they did not overbook flights. Is it possible that the OP was told that the flights were full, in my experience, a different situation altogether?
Also, what happened to the classmate? Is s/he still at IAD?

Heh,

Lady, if you were yelling at me for twenty straight minutes, I probably would have hung up on you. That's not really the way to get what you want. To be honest, it is LONG standing policy of any airline to screw a handful of customers over pretty good to "save" the many. That's right, don't expect *any* airline to inconvenience more passengers just to lessen the inconvenience to other pax. I've had days like that on other airlines, and you know what? IAir is gambling that the next time you buy a ticket, you will buy the cheapest ticket... theirs. That's how the airline game is played.

Had that happen on US a couple a times from PHL-MCO. Go rebooked on a PHL-CLT-MCO flt. It was enough to make me angry, but not mad. My dad got a refund. That happened to me at age 13.

Very sorry to hear about the difficulties your son, his classmate and you (in trying to find a solution to the situation) had to deal with last week. Unfortunately, July is a terrible month for weather-related delays and cancelations (worse than the winter months), but I'm glad he was able to get home.

To answer haruspex's question, Indepenence Air maintains the policy of not overbooking flights.


Cheers.

Very sorry to hear about the difficulties your son, his classmate and you (in trying to find a solution to the situation) had to deal with last week. Unfortunately, July is a terrible month for weather-related delays and cancelations (worse than the winter months), but I'm glad he was able to get home.

To answer haruspex's question, Indepenence Air maintains the policy of not overbooking flights.


Cheers.

I saw the DH COO on a recently flight (IAD-ORD) and he told me that the middle two weeks of july set a record in the airline industry for the most weather related delays. In all honesty there is nothing you can do about it. Especially because the airlines dont make the calls on weather to fly or not.

Especially because the airlines dont make the calls on weather to fly or not.

If the airlines don't, who does? During a significant weather event, the only thing the FAA/ATC does is issue restrictions due to capacity reasons. This may be either enroute capacity or airport capacity. This is what is commonly known as a "flow delay" or a "ground stop." If the weather is too bad to actually fly, it is the pilot and dispatcher who refuse the trip, not the FAA.

Well for the original poster, it is sorry to hear that your son and his classmates are being delayed in multiples times, but the weather in the east coast has been disastrous, and there is nothing you can do, and I disagree with the note that you expect Indy-air to bump someone off to accompany your son. that is not right at all... and has no logic. Also, flying LCC has its flip side and that is just one inconvenience that we need to live with as more cheaper fares have restrictions and LCCs are cheap because they don't interline with other carriers and when there is a weather delay, there is nothing much you can do about it.

DHAST, your arguement makes no sense, and when FAA is restricting the airspace, it makes airlines cancel a percentage of its flights. The airline has no control... also if a pilot feels that the weather is so bad that taking off and landing is dangerous, it is possibly for our own goods. Pilots make the professional call and there are cases in foreign countries where accidents happen, when pilots decide to take off or land in stormy situation, in which tragedies are resulted. When weather happens, it happens... there is nothing airlines can do... plus the airlines also lost money during these kinds of situations -- they forced to rebook passengers on next flights (lots of overtime by ground staff), and then there is the rescheduling of all the crews and aircraft, and when an airplane does not fly, the airlines technically lose revenues. So I don't follow your arguement and I believe that an airline's responsibility during weather is to provide up to date and accurate information, minimize the inconveniences, and to maintain good customer service even during stressful times. Unfortunately, weather and mother nature is something humans can never overcome and predict with 100% accuracy. This is an unfortunate situation, but at least the original poster's son arrived home safely. I honestly don't think if he flies UA or other legacy airlines will make his life easier. Indy-Air is possibly not too bad because it does not overbook its flight like other airlines.

Carfield

A number of factors can come into play that may cause an airline to cancel a flight. Currently it is 9:37am EDT as I obtain this information on Monday morning, and the ATC system already appears to be a mess.

For Louisville, Kentucky, United Express and American Eagle operate flights to Chicago O'Hare. This morning there is currently a traffic management program in effect at ORD, affecting flights from SDF:

Due to WEATHER/TSTMS, departure traffic destined to Chicago OHare International Airport, Chicago, IL (ORD) will not be allowed to depart until at or after 9:45 am EDT.

In this case, the delay isn't long, but no traffic may depart SDF for ORD until 9:45am. This will result in delays and if the weather persists, the delays could build up through the day.

Now let's say it's later in the evening and we're dealing with an IAD-CLE flight. If there is bad weather in the CLE area, a traffic management program of some type will be put in place such as the above may be in place. If there is bad weather at IAD, they may impose departure delays.

Let's use this morning at BOS as an example:

General Departure Delays: Due to TSTMS/MIT, traffic is experiencing Gate Hold and Taxi delays between 31 minutes and 45 minutes in length and increasing.

This basically states due to Thunderstorms, Miles in Trail (distance between aircraft has been increased) and departure delays exist between 31 minutes and 45 minutes an increasing.

For this example, let's say IAD has this departure program in effect with a Miles in Trail provision and CLE (instead of ORD) has a traffic management program in effect saying you cannot depart until xx:xx. The Independence Air FA's and Pilots are only allowed to work "x" numbers of day between rest. If it is apparent the delay will be prolonged and the employees willl go over, the airline will cancel the flight.

FWIW, let's look at LGA departures this morning, which will make BOS look like a minor problem:

General Departure Delays: Due to TSTMS, traffic is experiencing Gate Hold and Taxi delays between 2 hours and 16 minutes and 2 hours and 30 minutes in length and increasing.

When it starts backing up significantly with gate holds and taxi delays over 2 1/2 hours, airlines will have to cancel a percentage of flights. The FAA goes to the carrier and requests a 25% cutback, you work it out. In many cases, the carriers will focus on canceling some of their regional operations but they will get their "trunk" routes out along with their key international flights.

Oh, and while I am writing this, Chicago ORD has updated their ground stop time from SDF departing traffic to 10:30 EDT.

Due to WEATHER/TSTMS, departure traffic destined to Chicago OHare International Airport, Chicago, IL (ORD) will not be allowed to depart until at or after 10:30 am EDT.

If you're flying this morning around the great lakes and east coast, it may not be smooth sailing today.

Last, each Air Route Traffic Control Center, which has a code (ZOB for Cleveland Center) may limit traffic within their area when weather problems exist.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

It was my understanding that one of DH's main selling points at the outset was that they did not overbook flights. Is it possible that the OP was told that the flights were full, in my experience, a different situation altogether?
Also, what happened to the classmate? Is s/he still at IAD?

Although DH does not sell seats to the point of overbooking a flight can still become oversold. If you have a bad weather day at IAD with lots of missed connections and canceled flights DH will start to rebook passengers on later flights, including overbooking the stranded passengers in hopes of no-shows on the later flights. Although the flight was maybe sold for 45/50 it can quickly become oversold if they put 7 stranded pax on it to make it 52/50 hoping that two of the original pax become no-shows. It is in this manner that a flight can be overbooked even though DH did not sell it as such.

First of all Carfield, IA did not bump the classmate so he could accompany my son. If you read the original post, you would have seen that what happened was, the supervisor told me a seat opened up, and booked my son. When he went to get a boarding pass, the reservation clerk told him, my son had a confirmed reservation on the flight, BUT NO SEAT! Furthermore, in response to the other posts, what do you mean they don't overbook? Is there a difference betwwen oversold, and overbook, because that's exactly what the supervisor told me. Finally, its all well and good for those of you to defend IA's actions, but I wonder how many of you, if you had to go through what my son did-or anyone, would just calmly and very patiently have sat in the airport for 7 and a half hours, because, well, that's just how it works when the original flight from almost 24 hours earlier gets cancelled. Sorry, I don't buy that. By the way, the fare was not that cheap ( to rub salt in the wound). As for the classmate, he's still in the airport (just kidding).

However, with I-Air being an LCC, I doubt they have the ability to do a FIM and fly the passenger on CO, who operates non-stop to CLE
During my trip from SFO-IAD (posted here earlier this month), I was told by a DH supervisor (I believe he was the IAD station manager) that DH was negotiating a contract with another LCC for re-routing in cases such as this. He hinted strongly at which LCC it would be, but since he seemed uncomfortable saying it outright, I won't, either.

Now, given the funny routings that many LCCs use, I don't know if re-routing on another LCC would save more time than just waiting for another available flight on DH... but it's a start.

Finally, its all well and good for those of you to defend IA's actions, but I wonder how many of you, if you had to go through what my son did-or anyone, would just calmly and very patiently have sat in the airport for 7 and a half hours, because, well, that's just how it works when the original flight from almost 24 hours earlier gets cancelled. Sorry, I don't buy that. By the way, the fare was not that cheap ( to rub salt in the wound). As for the classmate, he's still in the airport (just kidding).

Some of us have been travelling for years, and with some members in these forums with a post count in the THOUSANDS, don't you think they have a lot of experience at this? Heck, I suffered a 24 hour delay in March, all because the stupid airline forgot to call me and tell me my flight was cancelled. Had they done that, I would have negotatiated for a non-stop reroute on another carrier. But, instead, they stuck me on another flight which was delayed, my connection off of that flight was delayed, that connecting flight was downgraded which resulated in a massive oversale (20+) and my flight out the next morning was delayed yet again, which resulted in a net delay of approx 24 hours for me. Do you think I was happy about that? Not in the least. And it happened on a "major" carrier... The point is, if you think these types of things are limited to I-air you are sorely mistaken. But did I raise a fuss with the gate agents? Heck no.

There are ways to be calm and persistent to get the BEST POSSIBLE outcome for your situation. Kicking and screaming and throwing a tantrum like you portray that you did (in your original post you said you said you "yelled at him for 20 minutes") is no way to treat a $10/hr employee who is just trying to do the best possible job that he can. I am experienced enough at these matters to get my way IF I can get my way. Sometimes I can't, and then I just suck it up. The minute you start yelling is the minute they stop trying to help you and just try to get you to shut up and go away.

DHAST, your arguement makes no sense, and when FAA is restricting the airspace, it makes airlines cancel a percentage of its flights. The airline has no control... also if a pilot feels that the weather is so bad that taking off and landing is dangerous, it is possibly for our own goods. Pilots make the professional call and there are cases in foreign countries where accidents happen, when pilots decide to take off or land in stormy situation, in which tragedies are resulted. When weather happens, it happens... there is nothing airlines can do... plus the airlines also lost money during these kinds of situations -- they forced to rebook passengers on next flights (lots of overtime by ground staff), and then there is the rescheduling of all the crews and aircraft, and when an airplane does not fly, the airlines technically lose revenues. So I don't follow your arguement and I believe that an airline's responsibility during weather is to provide up to date and accurate information, minimize the inconveniences, and to maintain good customer service even during stressful times. Unfortunately, weather and mother nature is something humans can never overcome and predict with 100% accuracy. This is an unfortunate situation, but at least the original poster's son arrived home safely. I honestly don't think if he flies UA or other legacy airlines will make his life easier. Indy-Air is possibly not too bad because it does not overbook its flight like other airlines.

Carfield

Let's take this slowly here. You are asserting that the FAA prohibits the airlines from flying in bad weather and that the airlines have no say in the matter. THAT IS PATENTLY FALSE. The operation of a flight is at the SOLE descretion of the airline. ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS DECISIONS are made with joint agreement between the FAA LICENSED PILOT and the FAA LICENSED DISPATCHER. These two individuals, employees, of the AIRLINE, have the FINAL call wrt operation of a flight. The FAA stays out of it.

You also say that "The airline has no control... also if a pilot feels that the weather is so bad that taking off and landing is dangerous, it is possibly for our own goods. Pilots make the professional call". What is it? Either the airline has NO control over the dispatch of a flight, or it DOES have control over the dispatch of a flight. Pick your argument here.

Yes, you are correct, when there are capacity limitations, the FAA tells airlines to cancel a certain percentages of their flights. HOWEVER, THE AIRLINE CHOSES WHICH FLIGHTS TO FLY AND WHICH FLIGHTS TO CANCEL.

There are cases where the FAA permits a pilot to fly, a pilot flies in bad weather, and CRASHES IN THE UNITED STATES. I submit AA 1490 in LIT for example.

P.S. We're discussing operational and legal control and dispatch of a flight in bad weather. Can you please leave the stuff about revenue out of the discussion to make it a little more simple to follow? BTW, which part of my argument makes no sense? I wrote a five line statement, with which you responded with something twice as long that I couldn't really follow. Let me know which parts you want clarification on, and I'll provide it to you.

To be fair, I think the FAA does sometimes close airports entirely. And at times they certainly put ground holds on certain airports, so the airlines have no choice on those flights.

Having said that -- weather delays happen. They suck. That's the way it is.

When I want help from an airline staff member, I try to be nice first -- sometimes excessively so. Yelling is only a last alternative, and I can think of only one case in which it worked for me -- and that was because it caught the attention of a supervisor who came over and resolved the situation. And the airline agent's behavior in that case was outrageous.

... I wonder how many of you, if you had to go through what my son did-or anyone, would just calmly and very patiently have sat in the airport for 7 and a half hours, because, well, that's just how it works when the original flight from almost 24 hours earlier gets cancelled. Sorry, I don't buy that.

You have got to be kidding. Anyone with any serious flying history has had this happen more than once. What do you think the smart option is? Flip out? Demand that an innocent reservation-holder be barred from an airplane so you can get where you're going? "Yell at someone for 20 minutes"? Be serious.

People here are NOT reflexively defending Indy or any airline -- they are trying to tell you how things work and how best to react when things go winky, as they often do. You do NOT get what you want by screaming at people. Almost everyone on this board has been in your position, and they have learned to get through it "calmly and patiently" because you live longer that way -- and because there is no good-karma reward for abusing people who can't control the weather or the airline's operational policies.

Live and learn.

To be fair, I think the FAA does sometimes close airports entirely. And at times they certainly put ground holds on certain airports, so the airlines have no choice on those flights.



Some of this is really hair splitting, and frankly, I'm not interested in winning many arguments on "technicalities." However, to make clear statements, it is necessary to split hairs and get a little technical. The discussion I involved myself in seemed rather general to me -- the poster asserted that the FAA prohibits airlines from flying in bad weather. That is simply not the case. Pilots and dispatchers refuse to fly in bad weather, and in some areas of the country (like Atlanta) the airways/airspace continue to remain open until pilots stop flying in the area for whatever weather reasons exist. Once enough pilots refuse to fly in the area, they find other ways to get them to the airport.

All of the ground stop/flow control delay programs exist because of too much demand and too little capacity for either airspace or runway space. This is where the FAA (and namely ATC) gets involved by limiting the number of arrivals to a given airport in any particular hour. During a ground stop, they COULD release the flight, but all that would happen would be that the airplane would circle while airborne while waiting for a runway slot. This is bad for two reasons -- it costs ATC extra manpower to work aircraft in holding patterns, and the airlines are burning extra fuel unnecessarily. So that's why we have these ground delay programs. It is solely an issue of capacity, and has nothing to do with safety.

When you say that the FAA closes certain airports entirely, there are a very few limited examples that I can think of, and none of it has to do with the FAA or ATC. The FAA itself does not operate airports. They are typically managed and operated by some function of a city, state, or local government. In DC, for example, the two airports are managed by the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. During a snow event, it is the job of MWAA to ensure that runways are plowed. When the runways are snowed in and not usable (as may be the case during a heavy snowfall) the runways themselves are closed. This is hair splitting at its finest -- if all runways are closed, is the airport closed? No. The airport is open, it just has no usable runways. What good is an open airport with no usable runways? Well, helicopters among other things can still land there. In a situation like this, though, it is the airport authority and NOT ATC/FAA that determines whether or not the runway/airport are closed. Another good example would be a plane crash on the runway. The runway is closed until the wreckage is removed and the airport authority (not ATC/FAA) reopens the runway.

Well airlines ultimately have no control over the weather patterns, and whether there will be a storm heading towards the the Midwest or Southwest or any part of the world. They can only work with FAA, and their dispatchers and their pilots to find the best way in working with the weather. Yes, the airlines have to decide which flights to cancel, but at the end, they will have to cancel some flights, in which will inconvenient some passengers, and crew. Nobody likes bad weather, and we cannot beat the mother nature. Airlines have only little control over which flights to release and which flights to continue, and at most cases, airlines have to give their international flights priority, as well as key trunk routes. I also believe that when a pilot comes up with the decision that flying is dangerous, we have to agree to his or her decision because he or she are trained to assess the weather and made the best decision. It is better to be safe than sorry later.

I think in this case, Indy-air possibly made the best possible decision and then there is little that it can do especially IAD is its hub. Anything happened to IAD and Indy air has little flexibility in moving its planes. I really don't think screaming and yelling will have resolved the situation any easier.

Carfield

Well airlines ultimately have no control over the weather patterns, and whether there will be a storm heading towards the the Midwest or Southwest or any part of the world. They can only work with FAA, and their dispatchers and their pilots to find the best way in working with the weather.
What confuses me is why you keep differentiating between the "airlines" and "pilots and dispatchers."


Airlines have only little control over which flights to release and which flights to continue, and at most cases, airlines have to give their international flights priority, as well as key trunk routes. I also believe that when a pilot comes up with the decision that flying is dangerous, we have to agree to his or her decision because he or she are trained to assess the weather and made the best decision. It is better to be safe than sorry later.

Airlines have COMPLETE control over which flights to release and continue. You're right about which flights get priority, but it is still the sole descrection of the AIRLINE which flights get released, delayed, and cancelled. When the FAA/ATC tells DH that you only have 45 departure and arrival slots at IAD in a particular hour, it is the sole descretion of DH which flights operate on schedule, which ones are delayed, and which ones are cancelled. The FAA used to tell the airlines which flights to cancel, and they threw a fit about it. Now there's more cooperation. As far as the pilots go, any pilot who makes a decision to go because of passenger pressure when he knows better deserves to have his license revoked.

But at the end, some flights have to be cancelled or further delayed... no matter what... Indy Air has to cancel some flights, and some passengers will not be happy. The airlines sure have controls over which flights to cancel or not, but one thing that I am sure is that not all flights will be operating and some people will be unhappy. FAA fundamentally tell the airlines how many a/c or flights that ATC can handle and decide what number of flighs will each airline get. Airlines can only receive orders and decide which flights to operate or not. At that case, you cannot fully blame any airline for weather-related cancellations or delays. And once again, they have no control over weather... Airlines don't have complete control at a weather situation.

Carfield

Hi, and welcome to Flyertalk.

I"m sorry your son had a rotten experience -- he could've driven from D.C. to Cleveland in about eight hours -- but the standby-for-next-available-seat drill is standard on ANY airline. If your flight is cancelled, you are rebooked on the next AVAILABLE seat to your destination, <>
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You had an unfortunate experience, but if you are going to vow never to fly Indy again, you'd better not fly AA, UA, NW, AS, CO, DL, US, HP, etc. ever again either, because they all work that way.

I disagree.
I air is a small company with a limited fleet. There have been WSJ articles about how this is making canceled flight s a nightmare on Iair (and jet blue). You are far better off on AA, UA, NW, CO DL, because they have far more capacity to absorb passengers from canceled flights.

or to the moderators for that matter:

Please remove the name of the IA employee you spoke to in your original post, that is against the T&Cs of FT.

Thanks to the OP for their wonderful contribution to this miles & points related board :rolleyes:

I air is a small company with a limited fleet. There have been WSJ articles about how this is making canceled flight s a nightmare on Iair (and jet blue). You are far better off on AA, UA, NW, CO DL, because they have far more capacity to absorb passengers from canceled flights.

It's not a function of fleet size, it's a function of load factor. They all are operating with very high load factors this summer, which makes any cancellation a burden, and i am led to believe Indy's average load factor is lower than the legacy carriers'. So Indy should be BETTER able to absorb a canx, and the OP just ran into a singular situation.

I am well aware that "throwing a tantrum" is really the last (if any) resort. My first reaction is never to jump down somebody's throat when I don't get my way, because that is not how I want to be treated. But, there was absolutely no effort when I talked to the supervisor to apologize, or express any remorse, for what happpened. I, too, am in the service industry, and I am well aware that acts of g-d can occur that upsets schedules through no fault of our own. Nevertheless, I will apologize to the client for any misunderstanding-even when its not my fault. Not once in my conversation with this supervisor did he ever come close to doing that. Are you telling me that anyone out there, getting a call from a father of a teenager who was still stranded in Washington one day later would not have at least tried to express a little empathy for the kids situation? I'm not asking for self-immolation here. Furthermore, I absolutely got the impression that their age had everything to do with their getting bounced around like that. You or I would have first patiently approached the reservation clerk to get on another flight, and if that didn't work, would have been more creative in coming up with a better solution-assuming one could be found. But these boys are total novices at flying, and had no idea that there are ways around the situation.
Believe me, the supervisor could easily have defused the situation with a little more humility. I really don't think that's too much to expect.

It's not a function of fleet size, it's a function of load factor. They all are operating with very high load factors this summer, which makes any cancellation a burden, and i am led to believe Indy's average load factor is lower than the legacy carriers'. So Indy should be BETTER able to absorb a canx, and the OP just ran into a singular situation.

I am not sure I understand why you think fleet size is irrelevant.

I would think:

(A)

Independence’s limited fleet size constrains their ability to pull another plane out of the hanger when flight XYZ was stuck in at ORD because of weather.

and

(B)
Limited fleet (not even factoring in the ability sign tickets over) means fewer flights. (Avail. Seats = Load Factor * Flights)

Furthermore, I absolutely got the impression that their age had everything to do with their getting bounced around like that.

Well, here it goes... I've been reading this thread thinking that there is probably nothing that can be said to make the OP feel better, and if anything might make him more mad, but I just have to say that the statement above is utterly riduculous. To say that these passengers were singled out for inconvenience because of their age is incredibly unfair and in my opinion down-right untrue.
I basically agree with the other comments that have been made about how sometimes when unforseen circumstances cause delays or cancelltion airlines are forced to make decisions that amount to the lesser of two evils and very often match one passenger against another (whether they know it or not, in this case your son and his friends against the person on the earlier flight who never knew of a problem). Are these practices fair (the practices which ALL airlines use)? That really depends on who you talk to, and of course the ones that were inconvenienced will be the most vocal.
I sincerely hope the OP tries DH again because this is not a commonplace situation, but if he doesn't, and if he flys frequently enough, I am sure that eventually he will find himself in the exact same situation with a legacy carrier.
Just my humble opinion

I am well aware that "throwing a tantrum" is really the last (if any) resort. My first reaction is never to jump down somebody's throat when I don't get my way, because that is not how I want to be treated. But, there was absolutely no effort when I talked to the supervisor to apologize, or express any remorse, for what happpened. I, too, am in the service industry, and I am well aware that acts of g-d can occur that upsets schedules through no fault of our own. Nevertheless, I will apologize to the client for any misunderstanding-even when its not my fault. Not once in my conversation with this supervisor did he ever come close to doing that. Are you telling me that anyone out there, getting a call from a father of a teenager who was still stranded in Washington one day later would not have at least tried to express a little empathy for the kids situation? I'm not asking for self-immolation here. Furthermore, I absolutely got the impression that their age had everything to do with their getting bounced around like that. You or I would have first patiently approached the reservation clerk to get on another flight, and if that didn't work, would have been more creative in coming up with a better solution-assuming one could be found. But these boys are total novices at flying, and had no idea that there are ways around the situation.
Believe me, the supervisor could easily have defused the situation with a little more humility. I really don't think that's too much to expect.

Ahh. So the point is that you didn't think this guy was being "apologetic" enough, right? I'd love to get a copy of that "for training purposes" recording.

I, for one, find this hilarious. Usually, people think that it's the "elites" that piss-and-moan about bad customer service or demand something to which they are not entitled. I think you will find that in practice, it's the people who fly so infrequently that they can't BELIEVE that problems occur and strongly suspect it had something to do with them not flying enough, or not paying enough money, or being too young, or the wrong age, or the wrong sex, or the wrong color.

Stuff happens. Get over it.

I'll never forget how one woman *****ED for close to 60 minutes when we were stuck in a 90 minute runway hold. I finally asked her how much she flew (not much) and that with my having flown close to 50K miles THAT YEAR, much worse things can happen than you miss your connection and have to wait another 2 hours. Or 8. Or 24. BTW, the airline was Northwest. I mean she complained and complained so much that -I- was getting tired of listening to her. She can write to her congressman all she wants but it wont do diddly for the once per year flight she takes to the sister in Tampa.

HEY....for $2000 per flight hour you can leave ANY TIME YOU WANT. I'll even recommend my brother, who flies charter.

...he tells me a seat "just opened up" on the 10:30 flight, and booked my son. I immediately called my son and told him that. He called back shortly thereafter to tell me that when he went to the boarding pass counter, the clerk told, " I see you are confirmed on this flight, but I have no seat for you!"

Was your son provided Involentary Denied Boarding compensation?

If he was ticketed/confirmed on the 10:30 flight, but they did not have a seat for him, it appears that Indy Air also involuntarily denied boarding to your son.

I'm not sure what the IDB regs are, especially when dealing with smaller aircraft such as the CRJ. I believe there is a "loophole" which let's them off the hook, but typically the major carriers will treat an IDB on an express carrier as if it was an IDB on a larger aircraft. You may want to look into this, FWIW, as they may owe your son some cash (not a voucher, cash).

The only problem I see is do you - or does your son - have any proof about being on the 10:30 flight? Secondly, was your son offered (and accepted) any type of discount or $$'s off voucher instead - which could be considered compensation in leiu of the IDB. Carriers will try to offer vouchers when cash payment is due in IDB situations.

First, I would find out what the IDB regs are for smaller aircraft -- if they do apply, I would request the proper IDB compensation from them.

Last but not least, feel free to file a report of overbooking at the following website. The report you file is for government informational purposes only

http://dynamic.tasc.dot.gov/oigsurvey/overbooking.cfm

Go to the above DOT website if you wish to make an overbooking complaint with respect to not being given a seat on the 10:30 flight you were confirmed on.

Also write to:

Aviation Consumer Protection Division
U.S. Department of Transportation, C-75
400 Seventh Street S.W. Room 4107
Washington, D.C. 20590

This will get your complaint registered with the DOT in the monthly air travel consumer report. Not enough people know about this or take the time to lodge a complaint with the DOT. Air carriers don't like this as the complaint #'s are made public.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

But at the end, some flights have to be cancelled or further delayed... no matter what... Indy Air has to cancel some flights, and some passengers will not be happy. The airlines sure have controls over which flights to cancel or not, but one thing that I am sure is that not all flights will be operating and some people will be unhappy. FAA fundamentally tell the airlines how many a/c or flights that ATC can handle and decide what number of flighs will each airline get. Airlines can only receive orders and decide which flights to operate or not. At that case, you cannot fully blame any airline for weather-related cancellations or delays. And once again, they have no control over weather... Airlines don't have complete control at a weather situation.

Carfield

We have a winner!

I am well aware that "throwing a tantrum" is really the last (if any) resort. My first reaction is never to jump down somebody's throat when I don't get my way, because that is not how I want to be treated. But, there was absolutely no effort when I talked to the supervisor to apologize, or express any remorse, for what happpened. I, too, am in the service industry, and I am well aware that acts of g-d can occur that upsets schedules through no fault of our own. Nevertheless, I will apologize to the client for any misunderstanding-even when its not my fault. Not once in my conversation with this supervisor did he ever come close to doing that.


Why do people care how sorry the airline employees are? I'm dead serious. When I travel, and I get delayed, I could not care less how sorry the airline employees are. I want to get home. You mean to say that if he was sorry, you would not have blown up at him?


Are you telling me that anyone out there, getting a call from a father of a teenager who was still stranded in Washington one day later would not have at least tried to express a little empathy for the kids situation? I'm not asking for self-immolation here. Furthermore, I absolutely got the impression that their age had everything to do with their getting bounced around like that.


Sir, with all due respect, a 17 year old kid is not a child. When I was 17, I was in college, living with a rommate. I was booking my own air travel paid for with my own money. Prior to that, I had not even flown anywhere with my parents. When you book travel for people that need assistance, there is something called an "unaccompanied minor" program. You pay the airline a few extra bucks, and they do some things to take extra care of the travellers. I've seen this used for 12 year olds, and I've seen this used for 85 year old's who don't speak English. Had you paid the fee for your child, the airline would have made darn sure he was taken care of. However, not paying the fee is not cause for any of the employees to single your kid out.


You or I would have first patiently approached the reservation clerk to get on another flight, and if that didn't work, would have been more creative in coming up with a better solution-assuming one could be found. But these boys are total novices at flying, and had no idea that there are ways around the situation.
Believe me, the supervisor could easily have defused the situation with a little more humility. I really don't think that's too much to expect.

I think the point several of us were trying to enumerate was that there are not always work arounds to the situation. In the case with I-air, there are no ticketing agreements with other carriers, and your son is pretty much limited to I-air flights. All they were going to do for him was put him on the next available I-air flight. I don't know what kind of work around there is for that. Did he have a long day? Yup! Is it frustrating to be told that you're "on the next flight" and keep getting into delays? Yup. But sometimes, you have to play the hand your dealt and you get what you get.

Furthermore, I absolutely got the impression that their age had everything to do with their getting bounced around like that. You or I would have first patiently approached the reservation clerk to get on another flight, and if that didn't work, would have been more creative in coming up with a better solution-assuming one could be found. But these boys are total novices at flying, and had no idea that there are ways around the situation.


If they truly are such novices to the point that they can't go to the ticket counter and re-book themselves, then you should cough up the extra $$$ and fly them as Unaccompanied Minors. Is that embarassing for them? Yeah, probably... but it is one way to gaurentee that the airline does everything in its power to get them where they are going ASAP.

The way I see it, you can pay the extra $$, or suck it up and deal. I have an idea that the airline employee wasn't going out of his way to help you because you weren't even a ticketed passenger. I'm frankly surprised (on any airline), that they would let you call up and re-book 2 passengers... one of whom you were not related to.

These things happen, on all airlines. It's just part of the adventure that comes with air travel.

HEY....for $2000 per flight hour you can leave ANY TIME YOU WANT. I'll even recommend my brother, who flies charter.

$2000 buys a small plane, the nice ones run $5000 or more per flight hour. The nicest ones run about $12,000 per flight hour. I have pictures of what $12,000 gets you :)

But seriously, even private charter suffers its share of delays and customer service problems. Can you imagine paying $25,000 for a one way trip and the inflight telephone doesn't work (you were going to use for a meeting) or the DVD player doesn't work? (Come on, you paid $25,000 for a reason). They get stuck in ATC delays and ground holds just like the airlines. The only difference is the jet gets delayed as opposed to cancelled.

$2000 buys a small plane, the nice ones run $5000 or more per flight hour. The nicest ones run about $12,000 per flight hour. I have pictures of what $12,000 gets you :)

But seriously, even private charter suffers its share of delays and customer service problems. Can you imagine paying $25,000 for a one way trip and the inflight telephone doesn't work (you were going to use for a meeting) or the DVD player doesn't work? (Come on, you paid $25,000 for a reason). They get stuck in ATC delays and ground holds just like the airlines. The only difference is the jet gets delayed as opposed to cancelled.

HEY! Are you calling my brother out for only flying the little bus?!?!

We can't all have family that flies a G5 everywhere!

HEY! Are you calling my brother out for only flying the little bus?!?!

We can't all have family that flies a G5 everywhere!

Honestly, I consider the little bus to be like a CRJ. Anything more than an hour and it's time for a bigger plane. The $5k is for a GIV, the $12k is for a BBJ. Sorry, no GV in those figures :)

DHAST, I am very perplexed by what you mean by your statement, but I am sure a little bit upset by it. Anyway, as a UA 1K, AA EXP, NW Silver, AS MVPG, and F9 elite, I totally understand how irritating weather delays were, but I know that I can't blame the airlines 100%.

For hg1, I don't think your son's age has anything to do with him being put on the 3pm flight or being bumped especially Indy Air does not even have an elite program and the only passengers that will possibly get a higher priority in the standby list are full fare Y passengers. Indeed as a young child, he possibly gets more attention from the agents because of liability issues. The 10am is possibly fully booked in the first place... remember Indy Air does not overbook its flight but you also have to be aware that it uses mostly CRJs (regional jets with 50 seats). LCCs certainly has pro and con and it is an unfortunately situation. I honestly think if he flies CO or UA, the situation will be similar. I agree with most posters here maybe you should have used the "UM" service and pay the extra fee for better accommodation on an "unfortunate" situation.

Anyway, I want to request the moderator to close this thread, as the discussion is pretty much completed as of this time.

Carfield

DHAST, I am very perplexed by what you mean by your statement, but I am sure a little bit upset by it.

It would help if you quoted the post you were referring to. Anyway, if you're referring to the one liner I directed towards you, it was a reference to the fact that you finally made a response in the four or five exchanges that we've had that didn't contain any technical errors.

True, carriers such as AA, UA, NW, AS, CO, DL, etc., may work this way when it comes to the 'standby' seat drill --- BUT they will also route their passengers on the lines of other carriers. However, with I-Air being an LCC, I doubt they have the ability to do a FIM and fly the passenger on CO, who operates non-stop to CLE; UA may fly non-stop to CLE likewise, if not via ORD, NW via DTW, DL via CVG, etc.

If the carrier at a particular station won't do an FIM because of WX, one can also approach another carrier and see if the carrier will accept their ticket at face value among the legacy carriers - even if it is a non-refundable, "Valid UA Only", etc. Sometimes they can pull the e-ticket, but may need a hard-copy receipt -- other times, if you can get your e-ticket converted to paper, it'll be accepted at face value.

\
SDF_Traveler

Noticed that no-one picked up on your very important point. The fact that I-Air does not have interline agreements means that when they get in trouble with cancelled flights or baggage backups they can reley on the assistance of other carriers to sort things out.

This works in reverse though. I arrived to IAD on 23 December 2005 and found IAD in total caos after weather related delays, many passengers had missed flights due to local traffic problems, the US Air baggage meltdown and what appeared to be a work slowdown by UA employees.

Saw two things happen. Passengers who had booked and missed I-Air flights due to late arrival were forced to buy new tickets. The other airlines who had passengers that had missed connections due to late arrival aircraft could not be booked on I-Air as they were the only airline with seats available and the agents were not even allowed to speak to I-Air and directed customers there to buy tickets if they wanted a flight that night as UA would not be able to get them out until next day.

Overheard that passenger had to buy a I-Air ticket themselves and then later get compensated by UA.

Thanks DHAST for your mean-spirited personal attack!

I really have nothing to say anymore and moderator, please close this thread officially!

Thanks,
Carfield

Thanks DHAST for your mean-spirited personal attack!

I really have nothing to say anymore and moderator, please close this thread officially!

Thanks,
Carfield

Who made you god of the board? There is obviously still interest in this topic, and people are still expressing their opinions. If you don't like that DHAST said something you saw as mean... I have an idea. Turn the computer off, get up, and walk away.

I do not claim to be the "god" here... nor do I have the intent to be the "god" here... But I feel that I have been singled out by DHAST to be attacked and I feel that DHAST claims to be the god here indeed... since he knows everything and keeps on pointing out all the "technical" mistakes I write. I just want to share my thoughts, and FT has long been a very respectful bulletin board, but things seem to have changed. I just feel that one cannot blame Indy-Air for everything that goes wrong in this case. I am also a "learner" here, and we only claim to give our thoughts here... for your information, I am also not the first one to request the moderator to close this thread... if you read the previous posts...

Indeed I will follow your request, and not to open this thread anymore...

But I stand by every words I write here.

Thanks and safe trips,
Carfield

We have a winner!

It seems you two are getting things confused a little. There are FAA imposed arrival delays, enroute delays, and departure delays. In those three groups there are several more types of delays. If we are talking about departure delays out of IAD, then yes the airline has a lot of choice on which flights get delayed or cancelled. If we are talking arrival delays, there is a lot less choice for the airline. For example, CLE ATC requests airlines to reduce the number of flights for a certain time period. If Indy only has six flights to CLE they are forced to cancel two or three CLE flights to meet the FAA request. Very little choice on which flight to cancel. Good airlines have a position known as an ATC Coordinator. There job is to work closely with the FAA to keep the airline running as efficently as possible.

Hope this helps,

BBB

It seems you two are getting things confused a little. There are FAA imposed arrival delays, enroute delays, and departure delays. In those three groups there are several more types of delays. If we are talking about departure delays out of IAD, then yes the airline has a lot of choice on which flights get delayed or cancelled. If we are talking arrival delays, there is a lot less choice for the airline. For example, CLE ATC requests airlines to reduce the number of flights for a certain time period. If Indy only has six flights to CLE they are forced to cancel two or three CLE flights to meet the FAA request. Very little choice on which flight to cancel. Good airlines have a position known as an ATC Coordinator. There job is to work closely with the FAA to keep the airline running as efficently as possible.

Hope this helps,

BBB

I get your point, but unless Indy is the dominant carrier in CLE or that Indy makes a hub in CLE, it probably has six flights all day, let alone in one or two hours. If it only has six flights all day, it may also elect to delay a particular flight instead of just cancelling it. My whole point all along in this thread is that the FAA/ATC imposes capacity limitations, it is up to the airline to deal with it. If they have to cancel flights, they cancel flights, if they have to delay them, they delay them. When you run hourly service between ORD and DCA, or IAD and LGA, or what have you, it is generally pretty easy just to cancel one flight and put all the pax on the next flight 'cause it leaves in a hour. When you run one flight per day, it becomes a little more difficult to cancel flights out right. In fact a couple of summers ago, UA's loads to Europe out of IAD were so high, and there were so few empty seats that summer, that UA was running flights 24 hours late because they would leave pax behind for DAYS before they could find a confirmed seat. In addition to the ATC coordinator, the good airlines also have Customer Service people working in their dispatch center. These customer service people work with the dispatchers and ATC coordinators to help make sure that the airline doesn't do something stupid and cancel a full flight when they had the chance to cancel an empty flight. FWIW, FlyI/ACA has had both positions.

I do not claim to be the "god" here... nor do I have the intent to be the "god" here... But I feel that I have been singled out by DHAST to be attacked and I feel that DHAST claims to be the god here indeed... since he knows everything and keeps on pointing out all the "technical" mistakes I write.


You just took a personal shot at me (which I have no objection to -- I'm not giong to complain about it or ask the moderators to close the thread, because I believe that two people can have a disagreement and discuss it like adults) but I will take a moment to respond to it because you're reading things into my posts that I never wrote. All of my posts in this thread directed at you contained factually correct information. If you didn't like what I wrote, you could have ignored it or submitted proof that what I wrote was incorrect. But you kept responding, and I kept responding back. There's nothing wrong with that. I never called you stupid and never insulted you as blatantly as you have insulted me. Nothing I wrote was mean-spirited, and nothing I wrote was a personal attack. (Okay, I did write something that could be construed as mean spirited, but with proper follow up, I'm sure you realize that it was just an acknowledgement that you finally caught on to what I was trying to say.)

When I am wrong, I either shut-up or admit it. I don't claim people are attacking me. I don't call them god or accuse them of acting like it either. As far as me "claiming to be god and knows everything" Well, let me respond to that.

I am not a 1K, PLAT, EXP, UGS, CP, PM, or whatever other designators are used to designate an airline's most frequent or valued customers. The only thing I "hold" in that respect is noted in my profile. And in some discussions, those notations are useless. Like the technical aspects of this discussion (note that in other things like how to get what you want during a delay your status might indicate your experiences with the subject).

However, when it comes to the technical aspects of air traffic control, airline flight operations, or other things in that regard, status is useless and is no indicator of knowledge. How so? My lowly silver status could indicate that I've flown a whopping TWO round trips last year. Truth be told, I actually didn't fly much more than that.

What I have to offer is the experience that comes with 6 years of being INVOLVED, on a daily (or near daily) basis (and not really buying airline tickets or listening to UA channel 9) in aviation. I have, among other things... My pilot's license, which I've earned flying in the most regulated and congested airspace in the country; two years of working for the airlines in various capacities, namely in ramp service and some limited experience in a hub operations control center; 3 years working in corporate aviation (which is some really, really fascinating stuff sometimes); some graduate level college work in airline operations; and finally, college preparatory work to become an air traffic controller. Through the years, I got to ride on an airline jumpseat for 8 hours, had numerous insightful conversations with pilots, and been on countless tours of air traffic control facilities. In other words, I'm not an armchair pilot, armchair CEO, nor do I play either of those on TV. (Have YOU ever flown into DCA on a clear night, flew right by the white house, capital, lincoln memorial, washington monument, and then actually keyed the mike and say "clear to land?" It's one of the coolest things I've ever done, and may never be able to do again.)Does it make me a know-it-all? Absolutely not. What it does mean, Carfield,, is that when I chose to post about the operational side of ATC/airlines, I know what I'm talking about.

It means I know how the system really works. It means that when your bag becomes "lost" I've been the one to tell you "I don't know where it is." I've been the one who gets to physically put your bag on the flight you will actually get your bag on. I'm the one who gets to sit there and tell the gate agents "I don't know when your flight is going to leave, call me back in an hour." I'm the one who waits until the last possible second (after everybody KNOWS the flight is delayed) to actually put the flight delay into the computer system to "make it official." Heck, I might have even told a few LIES to customers too. Oops.

If you feel that my experiences gives me a god complex, I refuse to apologize for it.


I just want to share my thoughts, and FT has long been a very respectful bulletin board, but things seem to have changed. I just feel that one cannot blame Indy-Air for everything that goes wrong in this case. I am also a "learner" here, and we only claim to give our thoughts here...


Well, I think you can see at FT we don't hold hands and sing "kum-by-ya" everytime somebody complains about something. This thread is a classic example. What I don't understand is why disagreeing with somebody (or pointing out mistakes or inaccuracies) makes a person "god" or "insulting" or otherwise "disrespectiful." Heck, I could have called you insulting (because I thought you were) when you told me in the first paragraph I wrote that what I wrote made no sense. What I wrote was a clearly written paragraph that was about five lines long, and I even asked you what was unclear or otherwise made no sense. You never really followed up with that. Had you told me specifically what you didn't understand or what made no sense, perhaps I would have chosen a different tone. But you didn't, and then went on to complain and insult me.


But I stand by every words I write here.


Me too. Go figger.

Please note that I am not whining, but that after several posts of being accused of personal attacks when it is not warranted, I am letting you know exactly what experiences I'm speaking from.

Going back to the original concepts, I was on a flight last week on UA that was weather delayed forcing me to miss my connection to US in CLT. I asked the gate agent if they would sign over my tickets to try going to US and they printed paper tickets to let me run around and try to get passage on someone else. I tried US, NW, AA, FL, HP, and DL to find that all seats were fully booked that would allow me to make the connection. I worked with the UA agent to try all kinds of connections (including even F9 to LGA connecting to USX back to RDU) and none of them worked out.

Ultimately I took my delayed flight to CLT and then ran to Hertz and drove a car home to get home 5 hours late and out the cost of the rental, but it was fine by me. There's not always perfect flight times and scheduling, but maybe I'm just familiar enough with airline travel that periodic delays and rescheduling that it doesn't bother me that much. Sure I'd rather be at my destination at the original time, but sometimes that doesn't work out.