MilesBuzz! - Is there legal precedent for this...?

I recently became aware of a FF account issue someone was facing that I found rather interesting...

The scenario:

Person A = adult
Person B = adult
Person C = child

A & B are ex-spouses. C is their child. B has custody of the child.

Occasionally, A pays for C to fly & spend some time @ A's residence.

B finds out that A created a FF account for C.

B pays for C to fly on a family vacation.

The miles from C's flight get deposited into C's FF account (i.e. the account created by A).

Net reality = C has a FF account that was created by A, has the majority of miles credited from flights that A paid for, but also happens to ultimately include miles from a flight that B paid for.

Reminder: B has custody of the child.

Evidence exists that A has created a PIN for online access to C's account.

Important reality: A & B speak to one another via lawyers only.

Regardless of whether A ever sees entries in the FF account that indicate that B may know of the FF account, & regardless of whether the entries ever existed for any flight B may have paid for, if B were to book an award flight for C w/ the miles from the FF account in question, & A were to find out & contest it in a legal forum, is there legal precedent which would disallow B's actions, or otherwise result in a ruling that would require B to reimburse A w/ $--? If so, was the $ amount calculated from a specified per mile amount, or left to the discretion of the court to decide re: valuation--?

Additional question--has anyone encountered this before, & possibly attempted to have the miles from flights paid for by one ex-spouse retroactively deposited into a different/new FF account for the child? If so, did whatever airline involved accommodate the request without incident? Did they happen to require some sort of "proof" of the ex-spouse reality? Was there a fee involved?

Just wondering...

I'm hoping that someone out there has some sort of reference or information which may assist the person who I know & for whom the aforementioned scenario is not hypothetical.

I'm interested to see what kind of replies you get and I'm not a lawyer, but here is how I would see it. The only issue would be whether the trip B booked would be for the benefit of C, who is the sole owner of the miles. With B having custody, B would presumably also have the ability to act on C's behalf in this capacity. The fact that A created the account or purchased most (or even all) of the tickets that earned the miles would have no bearing on the situation, since A does not retain an interest on that basis.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Standby4321:
[...]I'm not a lawyer, but here is how I would see it. The only issue would be whether the trip B booked would be for the benefit of C, who is the sole owner of the miles. [...]</font>

Yes, I agree...I think this would ultimately be a critical aspect of the overall issue.

I also wonder, however, whether "allowing B to save money flying B somewhere" could be interpreted to be "of benefit" to C--what with B, as the custodial parent, thereby having more $ available to provide support for C, technically...?


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Standby4321:
[...] The fact that A created the account or purchased most (or even all) of the tickets that earned the miles would have no bearing on the situation, since A does not retain an interest on that basis. </font>

I wonder about that, however, given that (1) the account would not exist were it not for A (whether intentionally created by A or not, the flights paid for by A somehow formed the basis by which the account was created), (2) the miles wouldn't be there if A hadn't paid for the flights, & (3) A may be planning (& may have been planning from the start) to use the miles in the account to book an award flight for C re: a future trip to A's residence (in which case A could be perceived as having a vested interest in the use of the miles, given that they could save A $ [& could perhaps be argued that the miles wouldn't exist in the account were it not for A ("relevance, Your Honor?!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )]).

I'm uncertain as to whether & how custody may ultimately factor into this (specifically re: its relevance, let alone potential pivotality)...particularly if the reverse were to occur re: A booking the award flight--given that B is the custodial parent...? I also don't know how airlines view "ownership" of miles in the account of a minor (& specifically re: award redemption).

Thanks for your response Standby4321.

[This message has been edited by ILTE_Miles (edited 07-11-2001).]

I would suggest you contact a family lawyer in your jurisdiction.

Any lawyer whose opinion is worth trusting probably wouldn't give legal advice on a message board like this. So I seriously doubt you'll get any real response from anyone other than the occasional over-enthusiastic law student who has yet to take a course of professional responsibility.

If you want, send me an e-mail and I'll refer you, if possible, to someone in your jurisdiction who can answer your question (and not charge you for it) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.



[This message has been edited by BoSoxFan45 (edited 07-11-2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BoSoxFan45:
I would suggest you contact a family lawyer in your jurisdiction. [...]</font>

The situation doesn't involve me, personally. In addition to throwing the question out in the event that someone who knew that case law even existed for such a case, etc., might happen to be on this board, I was uncertain what kind of relevant specifics or experiences might help others who may be wondering about (or affected by) this issue, but perhaps didn't feel comfortable posting, etc.

I also wasn't certain if Randy would happen to have been involved/consulted in whatever case may exist that perhaps has set precedent regarding this issue.

Lastly, I thought the academic discussion of the matter might be interesting, regardless. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BoSoxFan45:
If you want, send me an e-mail and I'll refer you, if possible, to someone in your jurisdiction who can answer your question (and not charge you for it) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.</font>

It's certainly worth a try... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'll inform the person who is involved in the matter.

Well, I was most explicity told by one airline that miles are 'personal property' and not an asset for a divorce case.

I also understand the bitterness here, but if the parents are down to fighting over FF miles for the kid- this does not bode well for how they relate on much more important decisions that have to be made over the yrs.

Dont know what state your friends are in - but a lot of them require parenting classes as part of the divorce - the cardinal rule is THE INTEREST OF THE CHILD COMES FIRST

Disclaimer - not a lawyer or a therapist http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jan_az:
I also understand the bitterness here, but if the parents are down to fighting over FF miles for the kid [...]</font>

Party A may not even know that Party B is aware of the existence of the FF account...& there has been no award redemption yet. Party B suddenly learned of the existence of the account, & is wondering "what could happen"--& specifically, legally--should Party B use the miles for an award redemption.

Party A wants practically nothing to do w/ the child--but will fight over anything.

Party B would probably give Party B's life for the child, has been the child's provider & protector, & happens to also have other family members which Party B helps to support. Party B is a hardworking, honorable individual, who would likely simply use the miles to "pay" for the child's flight on a family vacation--but Party B also knows that Party A can "go off" on just about anything, unfortunately.

Party B simply sees the miles as a way to help cut costs.

The miles should be put into a trust, and not be touched until the child is 18. That would be a simple solution... just make sure the child flies at least every 3 years, or what ever the rules of the airline is. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The miles belong to Party C regardless of who purchases it ,and as custodian of Party C, Party B can use the miles on Party C, themselves, or the neighbor down the street, and Party A shouldnt be able to have anything about it.

The only glitch might be if Party A put password protection on the account, therefore only allowing themselves access.

(edited due to my tendency to be overly verbose)
------------------
Have a great day!!
~~Missy~~

[This message has been edited by missydarlin (edited 07-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by missydarlin (edited 07-12-2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by missydarlin:
The only glitch might be if Party A put password protection on the account, therefore only allowing themselves access.
</font>

Given that airlines say that ff points belong to the person flying, I would think they would not allow access to the account by someone who is not the individual or their legal guardian. I'd bet the airline would change the password to something only known to B and/or C if requested to.

I have a somewhat similar situation. I established an account for my child many years ago, even though I don't have custody. I always split the cost of his travel according to the terms of our agreement. I have a fairly friendly relationship with my ex, but her present husband has major issues with me. Because of him, I opened an account on my own on X airline, after being told that he would not share the miles and apply them towards the cost of my son's travel on Y airline's account that he established years ago. He controlled that account.

Recently I discovered that an entry was made into my son's account on X airline for a trip taken where I was not involved in the cost of travel as he did not visit me. Somehow they had discovered his account number, most likely from a boarding pass on a previous trip.

I have my son's atatement mailed to me and I am the only one that knows his pin number. If her husband attempts to redeem a ticket for miles, he will be told by the airline that it has to be miled to the address on the account (mine). I do not believe that the airline will permit a change of address without knowledge of his pin number. Recently in a similar situation CO refused to merge 2 One Pass accounts that were in my name without knowledge on the pin numbers on both accounts. Please note, they didn't care that both accounts were under 1 name and the same address, they required the pin numbers for both accounts.

I do not believe that the airline will permit access to this account without authorization by the spouse that controls the account.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jan_az:
I also understand the bitterness here, but if the parents are down to fighting over FF miles for the kid- this does not bode well for how they relate on much more important decisions that have to be made over the yrs.
...- the cardinal rule is THE INTEREST OF THE CHILD COMES FIRST
</font>

ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. ABSOUTELY.

While party B may care about his or her child, he or she also needs to think about the PRACTICAL ramifications of this action, regardless of whether he or she CAN do it legally.

Is the $300 or so saved by this parent PERSONALLY worth the pain that will likely be caused when Parent A finds out, regardless of whether B was withing their legal rights to do so. It seems as if the relationship would deteriorate further, and the parties would engage in more fighting and backbiting. All so that B can save a few hundred dollars.

This child is likely affected by each negative encounter the parents have. Is it worth it to exascerbate this situation for 20,000 miles?

Is this in THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Well, I was most explicity told by one airline that miles are 'personal property' and not an asset for a divorce case.</font>

This airline is not up to speed on legal issues. Whenever there are many frequent flyer miles in a person's account and that person either dies or gets a divorce the frequent flyer miles are treated as an asset. There are many nasty divorces where the spouses fight tooth and nail over how the miles will be divided. This may sound petty but if someone has 1,000,000 miles in their account, the value could be as high as $80,000 (8 first class tickets to Asia, Latin America or Europe).

As for the original question, the mechanics of getting a free ticket will depend not only on the PIN but what airline the account was created in. It would be very easy to redeem an award in the account holders name on American w/o a pin but there would be no way to do this on Delta.

In my opinion these miles are for the childs use only. To be used after the age of 18 for college and so forth. We have all given away more miles than we have used so this is not an issue to fight about. The miles should remain in childs account until they are old enough to use them as they would like. This should not be an issue for A or B to worry about.

what does this have to do with the question at hand?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jan_az:
Well, I was most explicity told by one airline that miles are 'personal property' and not an asset for a divorce case.

I also understand the bitterness here, but if the parents are down to fighting over FF miles for the kid- this does not bode well for how they relate on much more important decisions that have to be made over the yrs.

Dont know what state your friends are in - but a lot of them require parenting classes as part of the divorce - the cardinal rule is THE INTEREST OF THE CHILD COMES FIRST

Disclaimer - not a lawyer or a therapist http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>