America West FlightFund (Pre-2005 US Airways merger) - It's Official HP will be servicing Hawaii

I am an HP employee I am thrilled to spill the beans and let eveyone on the forum know that HP employees just got word from an internal employee communication board that HP will be pressreleasing its new Hawaii flights on Mon. July 11. Here's what was announced to employees:

PHX-HNL and PHX-OGG will start Dec. 16, 2005

PHX-LIH, PHX-KOA, LAS-OGG will start March 1,2006

This was all that was announced so I do not know the scheduled times, frequencys, or anything regarding redeeming miles, etc. I am sure all the other info. will be in the pressrelease.

I must say I was surprised that HP was going to do PHX-LIH, and PHX-KOA. I was only aware of OGG, HNL service. This will definetly put HP on top of the overall PHX-Hawaii marketshare. I am sure the marketing department will advertise something like "more non-stops to Hawaii from PHX than any other airline" I wonder how this would impact ATA. I certainly am curious if HA will want to be bedpartners with HP since the codeshare relationship will be less beneficial since we are services all the main islands.

This is excellent news. I am looking forward to the announcment on Monday regarding this.

Pending success there may be non hub originating flights added.

However for now...

America West to begin new Phoenix-Honolulu service
Monday

America West Airlines will announce new service to Hawaii at a news conference Monday afternoon.
America West has offered Phoenix-Hawaii service through a code-share agreement with Hawaiian Airlines, but not on its own until now.

ADVERTISEMENT


The new daily service is expected to be launched in time for this Christmas.

The Business Journal learned of the new service on Sunday and according to America West's Web site, round-trip coach seats from Phoenix to Honolulu are selling for about $700, and first class under $1,400, excluding taxes and airport fees.

Additional details are expected to be released by the airline at 1 p.m., Arizona time.

Tempe-based America West (NYSE: AWA - News) operates nearly 1,000 flights daily to more than 90 destinations in the United States, Canada, Mexico and Costa Rica. The airline has announced its plans to merge with Arlington, Va.-based US Airways Inc. (OTCBB: UAIRQ - News) with $1.5 billion in new capitalization lined up. The two airlines are awaiting approval from a bankruptcy court judge, America West shareholders, and regulatory approvals from the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Air Transportation Stabilization Board.

For more: www.americawest.com.

We need more Canadian flights!
What would make most of us happy campers is if HP got to dump Mesa ...

We need more Canadian flights!
What would make most of us happy campers is if HP got to dump Mesa ...
Funny people have been asking forever to bring back Hawaii and here it is, now as so as Hawaii is announced, it's more Canada flights??? :rolleyes:. I guess its hard to please everyone.... Also Mesa is not going anywhere anytime soon....

We need more Canadian flights!
What would make most of us happy campers is if HP got to dump Mesa ...


Dump Mesa? Amen! ^

Would elites get upgrades to hawaii?

Would HP's entry into the Hawai'i market explain why fares around the supposed launch date(s) are incredibly low in comparison to other West Coast-Hawai'i markets?

ie.) PHX-HNL departing mid-late December and a reasonable return date can be found for as low as $397 RT (HA) and $419 (TZ). Both are non-stop flights, and one-connection flights are not too far behind $456 (UA). LAX-HNL is at around $650.

Not sure about the other ones, but hopefully the same trend is there.

Hang tight all. I have seen the schedule load both for NOW and March 2006. It is due to be loaded tonight but not for sale until Monday, when the media announcement is made. As has already been reported, it will start with 1x daily PHX-HNL and PHX-OGG, using HP 757s. In March 06, service expands from LAS and PHX. I don't want to say too much yet, until it is officially announced.
Yes, you will be able to use FlightFund miles. ^ (I have seen the mileage requirements but they will be announced Monday as well!)
Yes, all you appreciated Elite members will be able to get Elite upgrades at the normal 3/2/1 window. ^
Yes, Same day upgrades will be available (like that will ever happen!).
The codeshare with HA is up in the air even though it was due to end in October 2005 anyway.

So, effective December 16th, HP is back to Hawaii! Book away folks :D

Now once the merger goes through, start the flight (at least the flight #) in PHL or CLT and now they will have the most direct flights to HI from the east as well to feed this aggressive launch. ^

There are already schedules showing up at americawest.com. Both HNL and OGG flights depart PHX around 11:30am for mid-afternoon arrivals in the islands.

The return flights are overnight flights arriving back at PHX in the morning.

The ground time at HNL and OGG is extremely long. Looks to me to be about 8 hours if I remember correctly. It doesn't seem like great equipment utilization, not that I am not thrilled that we are finally getting Hawaii back!

What I want to know is, How long are the layovers gonna be? and How close will the hotel be to the beach? :cool:

I don't understand how HP will handle comp upgrades to elites to Hawaii. Wouldn't they want to capitalize on the lucrative F market that so many leisure Hawaii-bound pax purchase. ;)

This is good news. Maybe not so much for HA, who'll have increased competition out of PHX, but for the state with an increase in the number of the seats coming in. Let's just hope HP is here to stay this time around! ^

Great news for PHX! It really won't make that much of a difference to any other person going to Haiwaii. They will still connect in PHX as if there was still a HA codeshare. Anyone seem to think that this could be a rebellion against ATA and WN???

Anyway, great news to hear!

. . . Here's what was announced to employees:

PHX-HNL and PHX-OGG will start Dec. 16, 2005

PHX-LIH, PHX-KOA, LAS-OGG will start March 1,2006

. . .

PHX-LIH?!

Never had any real reason to look at HP (aside from a couple of SJC-LAS runs). But any new non-stop mainland service to LIH will draw my attention!

Aloha,

Lihu'e 1k

Now once the merger goes through, start the flight (at least the flight #) in PHL or CLT and now they will have the most direct flights to HI from the east as well to feed this aggressive launch. ^

Most direct from east coast to Hawaii
CO EWR-HNL

Most direct from east coast to Hawaii
CO EWR-HNL

There's also ATL to HNL, but besides those two non-stops. the way I counted it, HP could have six one-stops a day from the east. Not the same as non-stops, but good for marketing purposes.

It appears that a code-share arrangement is going to continue, at least for inter-island flights. Playing around with booking options on awa.com, flights up to Dec. 15 are the HA 35/36 PHX-HNL 767 flights. Then, post 12/15 those flights are no longer available, but the HP non-stops on 757's are.

However, booking through HNL or OGG to another island and you get HP for the long-haul and HA for the inter-island connections.

So, it seems the HP/HA relationship will live on, at least in some form.

Stay tuned, the Arizona Republic reported in this morning's edition (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0711hawaiiflights.html)that HP has a press conference scheduled for 1:00 today, presumably for this announcement.

America West Brings Its Low-Fare Service to the Hawaiian Islands
America West Announces Service Between Its Two Hubs and Four Islands in the Aloha State
PHOENIX, July 11, 2005 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- America West Airlines (NYSE: AWA), the nation's second largest low-cost airline, announces new service between its Phoenix hub and four Hawaiian Islands; Honolulu, Oahu; Kahului, Maui; Lihue, Kauai; and Kona, Hawaii (the Big Island), and from its Las Vegas hub to Kahului, Maui. The service will be added for the popular holiday travel period beginning December 16, 2005 with expanded service being introduced for March 2006.

(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20050223/LAW097LOGO)

"The tide is high, the surf's up; come on everybody, we're going to Hawaii!" exclaimed Scott Kirby, executive vice president, sales and marketing. "America West's coast-to-coast route system -- already the most extensive of any low-cost carrier -- adds yet another jewel to its network of fantastic vacation destinations. We're thrilled to bring our customers direct service to one of the country's most popular vacation spots.

"We're also pleased to offer our loyal frequent flyers more ease than ever as they book their travels to the island of their choice. Our everyday low fares and exceptional customer service will have passengers saying 'aloha' before they step foot on the island," continued Kirby.

"This is an exciting day not only for America West, but for all of Phoenix. We're delighted that our hometown airline will offer non-stop flights to four Hawaiian Islands. This will greatly benefit Valley residents not only from a leisure standpoint, as they now have access to some of the most desired destinations in the United States, but we also anticipate this new service to positively affect our economy as we more closely link ourselves with the state of Hawaii and its significant tourism industry," remarked Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon.

America West Vacations will also offer exciting air and hotel packages to all four Hawaiian Islands served by America West. Packages include air, hotel, traditional lei greeting at the airport and optional rental car or hotel shuttle transportation. A variety of accommodations will be available, from budget to luxury, with several condominium-style properties available. Packages also include value-added options like free nights, free meals, two-for-one luaus, free room upgrades and honeymoon amenities. Please visit www.americawestvacations.com for more information and to conveniently book online.

Specific flight information is listed below:

* On Dec. 16, 2005, service will begin with one daily roundtrip flight
between Phoenix and Honolulu, Oahu and one roundtrip flight a day
between Phoenix and Kahului, Maui.

* On March 1, 2006, America West will inaugurate:

* One new daily roundtrip flight between Las Vegas and Kahului, Maui

* A second daily roundtrip between Phoenix and Honolulu, Oahu

* Four new weekly roundtrips from Phoenix to Lihue, Kauai

* On March 2, 2006, Phoenix will start service to Kona, Hawaii with
three roundtrip flights per week.

America West will provide the new service aboard the 190-seat (14 first class and 176 coach class) Boeing 757-200 (B757) aircraft.

^ :td: I'm thrilled that HP is going to be flying to Hawaii again, but . . .

has anyone looked at the new award chart? 40,000 off-peak, 50,000 peak for a coach award. Compare that to the 35,000 year-round award offered by the Star Alliance and SkyTeam airlines. Also, First awards are 80,000 off-peak and 100,000 peak, versus 80,000 year-round on Star carriers and 75,000 on SkyTeam carriers.

I think HP's awards are inconsistent with other airlines in the market and too high to be competitive with other airlines.

ALSO, per the HP website, complimentary elite upgrades will NOT extend to Hawaii flights. :(

America West Brings Its Low-Fare Service to the Hawaiian Islands
America West Announces Service Between Its Two Hubs and Four Islands in the Aloha State . . .

SanDiegoShaun, I don't see any reference to the current HA Flight Fund mileage earning/redeeming relationship. Do you know if this will continue and, if so, in what form?

it seems like HP's website hasnt updated properly. when you click on award travel it only shows awards for NW and HA and not anything HP.

i cant imagine anyone would use 80k miles to fly FC on HP when you could use only 75K miles on CO for the best experience to HI.

then again, if you only have HP miles, there's not many other options. but again, not inline with other airlines to HI.

I'm thrilled that HP is going to be flying to Hawaii again, but . . .

has anyone looked at the new award chart? 40,000 off-peak, 50,000 peak for a coach award. Compare that to the 35,000 year-round award offered by the Star Alliance and SkyTeam airlines.

Dreadful. :td:

Dump Mesa? Amen! ^

Careful what you wish for....YV got dumped from PRC and now they have substandard service to T2 with no HP affiliation, no FFQ mileage earning ops, and higher fares. The community used to loathe YV, now they want them back, but it may be too late.

has anyone looked at the new award chart? 40,000 off-peak, 50,000 peak for a coach award. Compare that to the 35,000 year-round award offered by the Star Alliance and SkyTeam airlines. Also, First awards are 80,000 off-peak and 100,000 peak, versus 80,000 year-round on Star carriers and 75,000 on SkyTeam carriers.

It looks like the Hawaii Award travel information is loaded, but not under Hawaii. If you click Contiguous 48 U.S., you can see the miles required for HP flights.

No off peak and peak for HP flights - 35K year round for coach and 75K year round for first class.

http://www.americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/redeemmiles/travelawardchart/TravelAwardContiguous.aspx

SanDiegoShaun, I don't see any reference to the current HA Flight Fund mileage earning/redeeming relationship. Do you know if this will continue and, if so, in what form?
AZ Are you talking about this one?
http://americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/redeemmiles/travelawardchart/TravelAwardHawaii.aspx

AZ Are you talking about this one?
http://americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/redeemmiles/travelawardchart/TravelAwardHawaii.aspx

Yes, and for earning miles, this (http://americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/mileagepartners/airlinepartners.aspx#hawaiian).

Presumably, since there are different award redemption mileage levels listed for HP and HA on the redemption pages and the earning sections are the same today as they were yesterday, the HA relationship is expected to continue as it is. Is that safe to assume?

I just thought it odd that HP is now going head-to-head with one of their key Flight Fund partners and their announcement and web pages make no mention of whether that relationship will continue in its current form, change or end. I'm curious because I use this relationship quite a lot, and book tickets, mostly in F, months in advance. If we're no longer going to be able to earn HA miles on competitive routes, or some such change to the current program, I hope they provide at least 6 months notice. Any idea what's planned in this regard?

The codeshare with HA is due to expire in October 2005, no word yet as to the future of our relationship.

<insert personal opinion here>
I cant see the codeshare continuing, unless only for inter-island flights.

Yes, and for earning miles, this (http://americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/mileagepartners/airlinepartners.aspx#hawaiian).

Presumably, since there are different award redemption mileage levels listed for HP and HA on the redemption pages and the earning sections are the same today as they were yesterday, the HA relationship is expected to continue as it is. Is that safe to assume?

I just thought it odd that HP is now going head-to-head with one of their key Flight Fund partners and their announcement and web pages make no mention of whether that relationship will continue in its current form, change or end. I'm curious because I use this relationship quite a lot, and book tickets, mostly in F, months in advance. If we're no longer going to be able to earn HA miles on competitive routes, or some such change to the current program, I hope they provide at least 6 months notice. Any idea what's planned in this regard?

PM sent...

ALSO, per the HP website, complimentary elite upgrades will NOT extend to Hawaii flights. :(

Does anyone know how other airlines would treat their elites on a similiar routing, say a NW plat flies DTW-HNL or a AA ex plat flies DFW-HNL would they also not be eligible for complimentary space available upgrades?

Does anyone know how other airlines would treat their elites on a similiar routing, say a NW plat flies DTW-HNL or a AA ex plat flies DFW-HNL would they also not be eligible for complimentary space available upgrades?

au contraire. on AA, Hawaii routes are treated just like any others in the North America/Caribbean/Central America elite upgrade zone: free for top level ex plat, and the usual paid or earned credits for lower two levels. also free for any Y/B fare passenger, though without any status it's only same-day availability.

http://www.americawest.com/awa/content/frequentflyer/redeemmiles/travelawardchart/TravelAwardContiguous.aspx

The regular award chart lists the mileage redemption requirements. 35K for a round trip. Thats decent. How much availability will there really be? If USAir actually does merge, any redemption possibilities will be extremely tight. Good luck to anyone who actually tries.....

Just received an email from HP.

Elite First Class upgrade requires a $200 co-pay each way except Y & H fares to Hawaii.

Just hope that this trend will not propagate to other markets.

OK, so I've been looking for flights on Hawaiian Airlines website (comparing fares and such) and I've noticed that you cannot book a flight on Hawaiian Airlines from HNL to PHX after December 14. The PHX to HNL flights still exist at this point. (Also, I noticed that the early Dec fares for Hawaiian seem pretty low, $159 per direction if you are a Hawaiian Miles member.) Is this maybe a temporary glitch, or could this mean that Hawaiian is ending their nonstop service?

Well, I guess it must have been a temporary glitch, as all HA flights between HNL and PHX show available again.

OK, so I've been looking for flights on Hawaiian Airlines website (comparing fares and such) and I've noticed that you cannot book a flight on Hawaiian Airlines from HNL to PHX after December 14. The PHX to HNL flights still exist at this point. (Also, I noticed that the early Dec fares for Hawaiian seem pretty low, $159 per direction if you are a Hawaiian Miles member.) Is this maybe a temporary glitch, or could this mean that Hawaiian is ending their nonstop service?

Time between Thanksgiving and Christmas is not all that busy. Once Christmas rolls around, fares go through the roof. Typically from experience, flights are completely full and airlines charge whatever they charge during Christmas since they know someone will be willing to pay for it.

For the time being, Hawaiian will continue to serve Phoenix.

Is America West establishing its own station in any of the Hawaii markets, or will they be contracting from someone?

We need more Canadian flights!
What would make most of us happy campers is if HP got to dump Mesa ...

Why when Mesa is the largest airline in the US?

Does anyone know how other airlines would treat their elites on a similiar routing, say a NW plat flies DTW-HNL or a AA ex plat flies DFW-HNL would they also not be eligible for complimentary space available upgrades?

NW does not offer free elite upgrades to HI even though their service is almosts identical to domestic service.

CO does not offer free elite upgrades to HI. they do however allow anyone to use miles and pay a fee ranging from $250-$350 (not quite sure on the amount) for a confirmed upgrade. i do believe they also offer some type of buy up upgrade to anyone on day of deptarture. its a lot for an upgrade but CO offers service very similar to their int'l busienssfirst service on the HI routes, so it makes it a bit more worth it.

Is America West establishing its own station in any of the Hawaii markets, or will they be contracting from someone?

Probably not. Ground handling wise, work will most likely be contracted out to AQ, HA, or a company specialising in this. The last group I would expect to get their contract is UA. Doubt there will be any crew bases in the short run, or any true HP employees as well.

Corrections always welcomed!
asu-ua772

Sorry...never mind. I found the answer.

I am glad to see HP/US get into the Hawaii market again. They were the last major US carrrier to get into the act. I do not like the 757-200 to anywhere over three hours. Might as well be a 737!!!. Aparently there will be meals for sale on the 7 hour flight (what an insult) All other carriers still offer free meals. Are we charging for headsets and pillows too? Mileage reward is fair
at 35k for standard reward is the same for all the others. I hope they are not as stingy as Continental to redeem. Hawaiian I have no problen to go whenever and I can get 5 tickets if I want to. Lastly what about a lounge?
The Northwest Club really sucks in Honolulu but would be better than none.
Better would be to partner with United and get rid of Northwest as far as clubs go. My two cents. I wish HP well on this new route :)
As for me I will stay with Hawaiian

Aparently there will be meals for sale on the 7 hour flight (what an insult) All other carriers still offer free meals. ...

Actual flying time should be less than six hours on this route.

And most other carriers do not offer free snacks/meals from the West Coast to Hawaii: AA, UA and NW offer snacks/meals for sale; DL provides only a WN-style snack (no option to buy) and TZ offers nothing (and no option to buy). Only HA, AQ, CO and NA (note that CO and NA offer one flight each -- much less than the other airlines listed) continue to provide free meals.

Summary:
If you're traveling to HNL this Christmas/New Year's from or via the West Coast on a scheduled service other than Hawaiian or Aloha, you would...

... not receive or couldn't buy a snack or meal on 5 flights.
... have to buy a snack and/or meal on 19 flights.
... receive free WN-style snack on 4 flights.
... receive a free meal on 2 flights.

Well if this is true then Hawaiian is the best way to go. Even Aloha has crappy meals and discontinued free drinks (mai tais)in steerage and now charges for headsets. Its sad to see service go to hell like that. :td:

Well if this is true then Hawaiian is the best way to go. Even Aloha has crappy meals and discontinued free drinks (mai tais)in steerage and now charges for headsets. Its sad to see service go to hell like that. :td:

Yet, sadly, we want all those things FREE and a $298 roundtrip fare. In the 80's, I flew annually from BOS to HNL roundtrip and paid something like $800 roundtrip (yes that was the lowest fare available). Of course, the service in both F and Y was much better than today. However, do you want to pay $1600 roundtrip today ($800 adjusted for 20 years of inflation)???

* Over the past 10 years, the biggest % jumps in ticket prices occured for travel to/from Hawaii -- 15x the national increase for HNL alone:
http://www.bts.gov/programs/economics_and_finance/air_travel_price_index/html/table_01.html

* Hawaii doesn't follow traditional fare models.
- Tickets to Hawaii are rarely sold for cheap. When they are, it's usually because capacity has been flooded into the market (for example, a couple years ago AA, DL, HA and AQ each added significant capacity & mid-winter airfares dropped to $300-$400 inclusive from the East Coast).
- All airlines offer discounted airfares to tour operators in exchange for a percentage of each vacation package sold.
- Hundreds of surf boards are transported between Los Angeles and Honolulu each day... at a huge 'oversized' cost to the passenger.

* Take AA's ORD-HNL for example: rarely do tickets from the Eastern Time Zone drop below $700. AA's collecting further profits from their participation with tour operators (including their own) and transportation of cargo (they frequently fill the plane's cargo hold up with cargo being 'traded' to JAL). To connect with this flight, many passengers had to get up in the wee hours of the morning, arrive at their departing airport before the resturants opened, and endure a short connection at ORD. And now they don't receive any food on this plane, but can buy a small snack box and sandwhich - but NOT A MEAL - for $8. Not only is that a ridiculous offering for a flight in which most people will be on the plane for 10 hours, but factoring in many people won't reach HNL until they've been traveling to HNL for 20 hours with little/no food, it's a ridiculous offering.

Poor service indeed.

Yet, sadly, we want all those things FREE and a $298 roundtrip fare. ...

The scenario of rolling out of bed in the wee hours and racing off before restaurants and concessions are open, then enduring an 8.5 hour flight to HNL from ORD is not accurate.

On these flights, AA and UA both still serve full meals in coach. And, UA also continues to serve full meals in Y from DEN.

Add a stop in SFO, LAX, or any other west coast city, and you will get the "opportunity" on both to buy prepackaged snacks loaded in sodium, nitrates, preservatives and other fun things that your body does not know how to handle.

Aloha.

The scenario of rolling out of bed in the wee hours and racing off before restaurants and concessions are open, then enduring an 8.5 hour flight to HNL from ORD is not accurate.

On these flights, AA and UA both still serve full meals in coach. And, UA also continues to serve full meals in Y from DEN.


AA does not offer a complimentary meal service on ORD-HNL. All food in Y is BOB.

* Over the past 10 years, the biggest % jumps in ticket prices occured for travel to/from Hawaii -- 15x the national increase for HNL alone:
http://www.bts.gov/programs/economics_and_finance/air_travel_price_index/html/table_01.html

* Hawaii doesn't follow traditional fare models.
- Tickets to Hawaii are rarely sold for cheap. When they are, it's usually because capacity has been flooded into the market (for example, a couple years ago AA, DL, HA and AQ each added significant capacity & mid-winter airfares dropped to $300-$400 inclusive from the East Coast).
- All airlines offer discounted airfares to tour operators in exchange for a percentage of each vacation package sold.
- Hundreds of surf boards are transported between Los Angeles and Honolulu each day... at a huge 'oversized' cost to the passenger.

* Take AA's ORD-HNL for example: rarely do tickets from the Eastern Time Zone drop below $700. AA's collecting further profits from their participation with tour operators (including their own) and transportation of cargo (they frequently fill the plane's cargo hold up with cargo being 'traded' to JAL). To connect with this flight, many passengers had to get up in the wee hours of the morning, arrive at their departing airport before the resturants opened, and endure a short connection at ORD. And now they don't receive any food on this plane, but can buy a small snack box and sandwhich - but NOT A MEAL - for $8. Not only is that a ridiculous offering for a flight in which most people will be on the plane for 10 hours, but factoring in many people won't reach HNL until they've been traveling to HNL for 20 hours with little/no food, it's a ridiculous offering.

Poor service indeed.

First, what exactly are "traditional" fare models?? Hawaii is expensive during peak periods when demand is high. Hawaii is cheap during off-peak periods when demand is lower. This generally holds true for most markets in the US domestic arena. That being said, as Japanese tourists flooded Hawaii in the 90's, there were some temporary periods of fewer flights (which artificially pushed up airfares).

Second, there are frequent sales from the West Coast to HNL. Usually, HA starts them but, like WN in continental US markets, the others generally match. Like the continental US markets, fares to Hawaii were very expensive this summer (just like some domestic markets, e.g. SEA-PHX was $350+ for most of the summer)

Third, airlines only participate with tour operators because they MUST to fill their seats to leisure destinations such as Hawaii. The tour airfares are MUCH lower than the normally booked airfares. Even if they get a small percentage of hotel/rental car revenue (and it IS small), it doesn't make up for the reduced airfare.

Fourth, if it's such a ridiculous offer, fly someone else or fly First Class! In the 70's when I was a young kid, airlines offered "K" class from SEA-HNL. "K" class was in a separate cabin (typically the big rear cabin of the DC-10/747) and did NOT receive complimentary meals. However, you could purchase a meal for $2 or $3. Some of the "purchased" meals left much to be desired (e.g. a virtually inedible entree called Crepes Foo Yung on NW one time).

Actually, maybe this is an idea worth resurrecting. How about 3 cabin planes to HNL, configured similar to transcon flights? The business cabin could have 12 business seats (2 rows) with true J service. The full fare economy cabin could be configured like UA's Economy Plus (about 34" pitch, complementary coach meals, etc.). Finally, the Economy Minus cabin (about 31" pitch, meals for purchase, etc.) for the discounted fare passengers.

Finally, it is WELL known that Hawaii flights have historically been money losers for the airlines since the late 60's. What's wrong with airlines raising fares to actually cover the cost of the flights and providing amenities based on the corresponding profitability? Hellooooo! Although there are some indications that this is changing, airlines are still losing money!

First, what exactly are "traditional" fare models??
Very few people purchase pricy walk-up fares to/from Hawaii; airlines have historically relied on these types of fares for the bulk of their profits.

…there were some temporary periods of fewer flights (which artificially pushed up airfares).
Airfares to Hawaii have dramatically increased over the past decade whereas airfares around (most of) the rest of the country have largely remained flat. The reason why these airfares have increased is unimportant in context to this discussion – all that’s relevant is that people are paying, on average, 50% more for their tickets to HNL vs. ten years ago while they’re paying less to Disney World.

[quote]Second, there are frequent sales from the West Coast to HNL.
The travel period sale fares are offered for is slim (usually two weeks in January, most of May and mid-September through mid-December, minus a week or so around Thanksgiving) and sale fares usually price out more than what one would expect to pay for a transcon flight.

Third, airlines only participate with tour operators because…
For airlines like AA, NW and HP that own their own tour operator (that buys blocks of hotel rooms, among other things), tour packagers are heavily profitable. In fact, NW’s recent expansion into HNL with 753 was done predominately for its WorldVacations product. Furthermore, many tour operators buy blocks of seats on various airlines… this is still a very lucrative business (as ATA learned when it carried a reported average of 700 Pleasant travelers a day).

Fourth, if it's such a ridiculous offer, fly someone else…
I am. I purchased my next two tickets on CO and UA (avoiding SFO/LAX).

Finally, it is WELL known that Hawaii flights have historically been money losers for the airlines since the late 60's.

Undoubtedly a myth. Airlines have longed to add service to Hawaii, but the demand hasn’t been there – Las Vegas, Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean have beaten Hawaii (among American travelers) over the past decade (and more). But Hawaii refuses to accept this – it takes the opinion that mainlanders would love to travel there, but there’s just not enough seats. And airlines have played off this – they’d love to add seats, but Hawaii’s such a low-yield, FF destination that they need some incentive. So they get reduced rent/landing fees (at one point free) and guess what? No service increases.

What's wrong with airlines raising fares to actually cover the cost of the flights…
Nothing. But the market, not the airlines, set the prices. If it’s not enough, time to start reducing the cost of the flights…

…and providing amenities based on the corresponding profitability?
You better believe that low service qualities on 8-10 hour flights will make passengers think twice the next time they vacation – shorter flights to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean will suddenly look much more attractive.

Finally, it is WELL known that Hawaii flights have historically been money losers for the airlines since the late 60's.

Undoubtedly a myth. Airlines have longed to add service to Hawaii, but the demand hasn’t been there – Las Vegas, Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean have beaten Hawaii (among American travelers) over the past decade (and more). But Hawaii refuses to accept this – it takes the opinion that mainlanders would love to travel there, but there’s just not enough seats. And airlines have played off this – they’d love to add seats, but Hawaii’s such a low-yield, FF destination that they need some incentive. So they get reduced rent/landing fees (at one point free) and guess what? No service increases.

According to the local newspapers here, the professors at the University of Hawai'i's Travel Industry Management Dept. and those folks at the HVCB have always come out saying that Hawaii is a money loser. Now, either you're right or they're wrong. I'd take my chances with them, no offense intended.

By the way, in May of 2005, there were roughly 620k total domestic air seats to the State of Hawaii (I excluded international because that seems out of scope here). Roughly 400k of them were visitors to Hawai'i, making all flights to Hawai'i about 64% of flights full. However, the estimated number of residents traveling to/from the islands domestically during that same travel period was 60k. So in January 2005 alone, with very rough estimates, you had about a 74% rate in those seats. That's okay, in my opinion, a sign of a recovering industry. The numbers do indicate changes in the tourism industry, however, showing levels that are far surpassing the pre-2001 levels.

You said that reduced landing fees brought about no service increases. Prior to Sept 11th, the Airport was having problems with landing fees, raising them to meet the demands of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs who owns the very land the airport sits on. However, as you noted, landing fees were waived shortly following Sept 11th (but reinstated in '02). In December 2001, there were 438,269 domestic air seats to the islands. In December 2002, there were 514,407 domestic air seats to the islands. In December 2003, there were 553,961 domestic air seats to the islands. In December 2004, there were 630,881 domestic air seats to the islands. In May 2005, as noted above, there were 620 domestic air seats to the islands (a slight decrease from December '04, but that's due to an increase in airline capacity during the peak winter months). From Dec. 01 to May 05, there was a change of +181,731 domestic air seats to the islands. Seems like overall service increases by airlines to me.

I don't care about the demand related to tourism in Florida, Las Vegas, et al. What matters is the demand for Hawai'i tourism, and those numbers are rising, substantially by the month. I might not be a big fan of increased tourism to the islands (that's another post), but the numbers tell a different story.

Now, since it's 2:30 a.m. here, what was the real argument about, again? ;)

slippahs,
I believe that flights to/from Hawaii, for reasons mentioned in my previous postings, have as much potential for profitability as most other routes in airlines’ networks. If they didn’t, HP wouldn’t be beginning service (not in an era of $60+ oil)… UA wouldn’t have bought a separate, sub-fleet of PW engines for select 757, etc.

In the 1990s, Hawaii never saw the explosive tourist growth that other hotspots (Las Vegas, Florida, Mexico & the Caribbean) did. In fact, it took 10 years to break the tourist record set in 1990. Hawaii has defended its position as ‘tourists would love to come here, but there are simply not enough airline seats - and that’s because airlines can’t make a profit flying here.’ In reality airlines regularly added capacity but retracted it when the demand wasn’t there (without deep discounting). Strong marking efforts by other hotspots lead people in the Central/Eastern part of the country to realize there’s better vacation values closer to home… then suddenly in the late 1990s, a freefall of Japanese tourists lead Hawaii to once again spend big marketing dollars in the mainland (particularly in the Central/Eastern regions)… that, coupled with the increase costs of vacationing elsewhere, suddenly lead to a resurgence of demand to Hawaii. But according to Hawaii, the REAL reason people are returning is because airlines decided to add capacity, a luxury they can afford with more economical aircraft (757, 767, 777).

BTW, HNL twice waived landing fees/reduced rent – one was in the late 1990s, which is what I was referring to.

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EDIT: I responded to slippah's via private message in reference to his posting below -- I didn't want to kill this discussion.

In the 1990s, Hawaii never saw the explosive tourist growth that other hotspots (Las Vegas, Florida, Mexico & the Caribbean) did. In fact, it took 10 years to break the tourist record set in 1990. Hawaii has defended its position as ‘tourists would love to come here, but there are simply not enough airline seats - and that’s because airlines can’t make a profit flying here.’ In reality airlines regularly added capacity but retracted it when the demand wasn’t there (without deep discounting). Strong marking efforts by other hotspots lead people in the Central/Eastern part of the country to realize there’s better vacation values closer to home… then suddenly in the late 1990s, a freefall of Japanese tourists lead Hawaii to once again spend big marketing dollars in the mainland (particularly in the Central/Eastern regions)… that, coupled with the increase costs of vacationing elsewhere, suddenly lead to a resurgence of demand to Hawaii. But according to Hawaii, the REAL reason people are returning is because airlines decided to add capacity, a luxury they can afford with more economical aircraft (757, 767, 777).

I agree that all of the above is interesting, but do you have a source? You keep mentioning that "tourists would love to come here, but there are simply not enough airline seats - and that’s because airlines can’t make a profit flying here," but I've never heard that from anyone I've ever known in the HVCB or through the media...

Finally, it is WELL known that Hawaii flights have historically been money losers for the airlines since the late 60's. What's wrong with airlines raising fares to actually cover the cost of the flights and providing amenities based on the corresponding profitability? Hellooooo! Although there are some indications that this is changing, airlines are still losing money![/QUOTE]


I find this hard to believe when the best fare I coud get in advance
4-6 months out from west coast to Hawaii was $700 (2500 miles)
If I told you that the best fare from LAX to NEw York was $700 you would say I was crazy!!!! same 2500 miles!!! I do think however that fewer people pay walk up fares also First class to Hawaii is not free like it is in the mainland for Elites. I believe it to be very profitable or America West would not be the last major to get into the market. ;)

I find this hard to believe when the best fare I coud get in advance 4-6 months out from west coast to Hawaii was $700 (2500 miles)
If I told you that the best fare from LAX to NEw York was $700 you would say I was crazy!!!! same 2500 miles!!! I do think however that fewer people pay walk up fares also First class to Hawaii is not free like it is in the mainland for Elites. I believe it to be very profitable or America West would not be the last major to get into the market. ;)

I said that HISTORICALLY (e.g. in the 60s/70s/80s/90s) Hawaii has been a money loser. I also said that there are indications that this is CHANGING. By the way, mainline airlines are losing their shirt on the extremely low fares from LAX-JFK. America West's costs are almost as low as Jetblue/Southwest. Hopefully, that will continue with the acquisition of US Airways and their Hawaii service will be at least breakeven for them.

To Bagels --

The airlines are NOT lying. I personally did some of this analysis for AA. My goal was to minimize the huge losses (not maximize the non-existent profit) on Hawaii flights. We discontinued contracts with the low end tour operators and increased contracts with higher end tour operators. We cut the premium level in-flight service. We made plans to put the 757's on Hawaii routes to lower overall costs. We tried to limit the AAdvantage availability on these flights to 10% because everyone wants to redeem their awards on these flights (sorry...I know this statement isn't popular).

In fact, I personally had to fight to keep the Hawaii flights. Upper management came very close to cutting all west coast to Honolulu flights (just leaving ORD and DFW, where the fares were higher).

Again, there are indications that this market is bouncing back in terms of profitability. Perhaps they are now about breakeven. Those of you under 35 or so do not realize that these fares are historically low. Based on historical fare levels in the 80's, $700 from the West Coast and $1600 from the East Coast would be reasonable fares. Of course, we don't pay that much anymore... :rolleyes: