I recently visited several Asian cities, and had a grand time as a first-time tourist in that part of the world. I'm planning my next trip to the Far East, and would like to include Beijing and Shanghai.
I do realize that travel and tourism are highly personal activities. My own touristic interests are in art, history, and architecture ... and the Great Wall, of course. I do not speak Chinese. I do not mind at all joining day tours, as long as they are conducted in English.
I am hoping that the China experts here on this board might share some thoughts with me: is Beijing a 3-night or a 4-night city for a person of my interests?
Similarly, Shanghai: a 3-night city or a 4-night city?
Are there other cities in China worth 3 or perhaps 4 nights too?
Thanks very much.
moondog
Jul 4, 05, 10:16 pm
5 to 2 in favor of beijing (i will readily admit that shanghai is more comfortable and has much better western food, but there is much much more for tourists to see and do in the capital)
JohnWM
Jul 5, 05, 7:08 pm
Thank you very much, moondog! I appreciate your suggestion.
moondog
Jul 5, 05, 7:13 pm
you might also consider flying from beijing to hangzhou (fares are as low as y350 right now) and spending a night there before moving onto shanghai (less than 2 hours by train or bus). if you do this, you should still plan on 2 nights in sh.
shazbot
Jul 5, 05, 7:22 pm
Depends on what you're looking for. If you want the cultural stuff, Beijing gets priority. If you want to party, SH hands down.
greenwood
Jul 5, 05, 7:29 pm
I agree with moondog. Both cities are vibrant and exciting, but Beijing demands more time simply because it seems to have far more in the way of sites. With two nights in Shanghai you'll of course have only scratched the surface, but you'll at least have a good sense for the feel of the city. With two nights in Beijing you basically only have time for the Great Wall and the Forbidden City, and there is much more in Beijing besides.
Hangzhou is a good suggestion. If you have time, you might also want to try Nanjing, which is two hours from Shanghai and was the Ming Dynasty (and Nationalist) capital.
moondog
Jul 5, 05, 7:57 pm
If you want to party, SH hands down.
i have to disagree with you on this point. while the death of the south bar street has certainly thrown a wrench in the beijing nighttime landscape, i would still argue that is much more fun. the only hard evidence i can posit in support of my position is that every single one of my sh friends has been blown away to the point that they won't debate this topic any more.
in sh, you can spend your wednesday's at zapata's with 2000+ fellow expats, who you can also brush shoulders with at park, vip room, dkd, or bar rouge on weekends, but beijing is considerably more interesting imo. this is due to several reasons:
-beijingers have more disposable income
-beijingers have interests beyond money
-as a nasty, politically oppressed city, beijing has fostered a vibrant art and music scene; some of the punk bands i've seen at yugong yishan blow the stuff i used to listed in college out of the water
-in beijing, it's perfectly acceptable to try out new places
-house parties are easy to pull off and always successful in beijing; in sh, people just sit around and think about park/guandi
give me a ring next time you're in town and i'll show you myself. the same offer holds for sh.
moondog
Jul 5, 05, 8:03 pm
Hangzhou is a good suggestion. If you have time, you might also want to try Nanjing, which is two hours from Shanghai and was the Ming Dynasty (and Nationalist) capital.
i actually lived in nj for 6 months during 1995 and have fond memories (in spite of the fact that i spent a lot of weekends in sh in order to eat properly during my stay there).
btw, it's more like 3 hours (fastest trains) from sh.
also, you'd want to choose between there and hangzhou since they are in opposite directions. i like hangzhou because it is pretty, the shangri-la is great and inexpensive, and can easily be done in a day. that said, nanjing figures considerably more prominently in chinese history (oh, don't go there during the summer; it's one of the "4 furnaces")
greenwood
Jul 5, 05, 8:10 pm
I lived in Nanjing for 10 months in 1996-97. Shanghai used to be our place of escape when we wanted to remember more of what the outside world was like, though I imagine Nanjing must has changed a lot since then. My memory could be wrong of course but when I got to Nanjing they had recently put in a faster train line that had cut the journey -- I thought -- to two years.
JohnWM
Jul 5, 05, 8:35 pm
Thanks again, men, for your suggestions. Thanks also for sharing your experiences and reminiscences. You've given me some good ideas.
moondog
Jul 5, 05, 8:45 pm
My memory could be wrong of course but when I got to Nanjing they had recently put in a faster train line that had cut the journey -- I thought -- to two years.
here's the full schedule (according to tielu.org). the fastest train seems to be 2:52
Thanks for posting the schedule -- I didn't realize you could get them online.
JohnWM, have a great time in China!
greenwood
Jul 5, 05, 8:53 pm
And of course I meant two hours in the previous post, not two years. :D
shazbot
Jul 5, 05, 8:55 pm
i have to disagree with you on this point. while the death of the south bar street has certainly thrown a wrench in the beijing nighttime landscape, i would still argue that is much more fun. the only hard evidence i can posit in support of my position is that every single one of my sh friends has been blown away to the point that they won't debate this topic any more.
in sh, you can spend your wednesday's at zapata's with 2000+ fellow expats, who you can also brush shoulders with at park, vip room, dkd, or bar rouge on weekends, but beijing is considerably more interesting imo. this is due to several reasons:
-beijingers have more disposable income
-beijingers have interests beyond money
-as a nasty, politically oppressed city, beijing has fostered a vibrant art and music scene; some of the punk bands i've seen at yugong yishan blow the stuff i used to listed in college out of the water
-in beijing, it's perfectly acceptable to try out new places
-house parties are easy to pull off and always successful in beijing; in sh, people just sit around and think about park/guandi
give me a ring next time you're in town and i'll show you myself. the same offer holds for sh.
Hmm, interesting. I do love weds. nights @ Zapata's... so many girls on the prowl. I haven't been to Beijing in awhile, sounds like its changed from the last time I've been there. The house parties I've been to in SH have always been pretty fun, and its always interesting to see a room full of expat guys, and all local girls. Its like a Zapatas away from Zapatas.
I do feel bad for the local guys there though, all the attractive (and unattractive) girls want an expat, and theres plenty around.
moondog
Jul 5, 05, 9:27 pm
I do feel bad for the local guys there though, all the attractive (and unattractive) girls want an expat, and theres plenty around.
we're getting way off topic here, but ime rich guys from hk and taiwan are the most sought after (particularly if they're also famous), followed by abcs with good game (a rare breed, but my best friend happens to fit this bill), followed by other expats.
beijing isn't nearly as superficial and (consequently) lacks the meat market feel. btw, i don't think it's any better now than it was 5 or 10 years back; you just need to be slightly immersed to find the good places (changes frequently)
recently, i've been spending a lot more of shanghai nights at windows (for those that don't know, windows is place you're supposed to graduate from once you get a real job) because i just can't handle that whole faux-elite thing. karting is also tons of fun and makes for a great date. mondays at rojam can still be ok if you're in the right mood and can get a good group together.
RichardInSF
Jul 5, 05, 11:22 pm
I am so out of it, someone needs to tell me what an "abcs with good game" is!
I'd vote for 4 nights in Beijing and 3 nights in Shanghai if that is the choice and it's your first visit. There are just so many more must-see famous sites in Beijing.
I'm going to be in Shanghai in (probably mid-) September, moondog: does your nightlife tour offer extend to other people too?
shazbot
Jul 6, 05, 12:53 am
I am so out of it, someone needs to tell me what an "abcs with good game" is!
I'd vote for 4 nights in Beijing and 3 nights in Shanghai if that is the choice and it's your first visit. There are just so many more must-see famous sites in Beijing.
I'm going to be in Shanghai in (probably mid-) September, moondog: does your nightlife tour offer extend to other people too?
ABC=american born chinese.
I'm assuming game = money, or american style/attitude/etc.
I'm planning on going to SH 'round year end for my yearly trip. Just remember to watch out for hookers when you go out to the bars.
moondog
Jul 6, 05, 1:19 am
I'm assuming game = money, or american style/attitude/etc.
nah... good game transcends attributes like wealth/physical attractiveness/nationality/education level/etc
Richard; of course my offer extends to all, especially those from pa and mtv (where I plan on returning once I conquer the east side). I actually spent a few days in the view last week; in Portland now.
NorthOrSouth
Jul 6, 05, 10:49 am
4 nights in Beijing, 3 in Shanghai or 5 in Beijing, 2 in Shanghai. More to see in Beijing.
PTravel
Jul 6, 05, 11:32 am
I recently visited several Asian cities, and had a grand time as a first-time tourist in that part of the world. I'm planning my next trip to the Far East, and would like to include Beijing and Shanghai.
I do realize that travel and tourism are highly personal activities. My own touristic interests are in art, history, and architecture ... and the Great Wall, of course. I do not speak Chinese. I do not mind at all joining day tours, as long as they are conducted in English.
I am hoping that the China experts here on this board might share some thoughts with me: is Beijing a 3-night or a 4-night city for a person of my interests?
Similarly, Shanghai: a 3-night city or a 4-night city?
Are there other cities in China worth 3 or perhaps 4 nights too?
Thanks very much.
In my opinion, Beijing is far more than 4-nights. We were just there a couple of months ago, stayed for 8 nights, and that was just barely enough -- there are still things we haven't gotten to see and, more importantly, parts of the city I'd like to walk, tea shops to sit in, etc.
Shanghai, because it is so new (for the most part) was somewhat less compelling. We were there 5 nights, again could have used more time, but primarily for day trips from Shanghai (we went to Tong Li -- well worth it, by the way -- but there are other small, well-preserved towns in the area that we'd like to see.
JohnWM
Jul 6, 05, 12:03 pm
Thank you all for sharing your opinions and experiences with me. They go a long way towards helping me decide. Best regards. John.
dawei
Jul 6, 05, 2:28 pm
Wow moondog, thems some fighting words!
But I tend to agree, I never really got into the bar scene living in Shanghai so I can't really compare. When I was in Beijing I used to hang out a place called public space, but that was nearly ten years ago. For shanghai nightlife, I've found the jazz clubs to be a really pleasant mix of locals and expats without the park97/guandi crowd... even though I'm not a huge jazz fan....Cotton club was all right as were some others but I wasn’t looking to really mingle.
To the topic at hand, while I consider myself an honorary shanghai ren I would have to agree that from the tourist’s perspective Beijing has a lot more to offer. Also, not sure where you are flying in from but for many people unaccustomed to the jump (and even some of us who are) the first day is kind of a waste so keep that in mind. Budget at least one day to the Great wall, and here I highly endorse Si Ma Tai but for a non Chinese speaker it may be hard to pull off. The two spots closer to Beijing where most of the day trips go are a little towards the Disney end for my taste. The forbidden city/tian an men will need another full day as well. And of course the summer palace, while the new roads get you there so much faster I still think you need a full day for that site as well. At some point be sure to check out bei hai park as well.
In Shanghai I would spend one day visiting the old city, the bund, and the jade Buddha temple. I think the boat tours are a good deal, and have heard good things about the Hyatt’s new Yacht but have no personal experience. For the second day I would drive out to Zhu Jia Jiao or zhou zhuang, both very pleasant water towns that are more in line with what people would expect su zhou to be like (rather then the industrial town it has become – ok Suzhou lovers flame away).
Other towns that are highly worth considering are: Hang Zhou (as noted), I think it deserves more then a day trip for Shanghai, but it is doable. Xian, a lot to see here including the terracotta warriors. Guilin is always classic. Xiamen had great seafood. If you are feeling adventurous you could try Kunming and the nearby Da Lian and Li Jiang…
moondog
Jul 6, 05, 2:47 pm
you could try Kunming and the nearby Da Lian and Li Jiang…
I think you meant Dali.
dawei
Jul 6, 05, 3:50 pm
I think you meant Dali.
Yep, thanks.
dtsm
Jul 7, 05, 2:19 pm
i have to disagree with you on this point. while the death of the south bar street has certainly thrown a wrench in the beijing nighttime landscape, i would still argue that is much more fun. the only hard evidence i can posit in support of my position is that every single one of my sh friends has been blown away to the point that they won't debate this topic any more.
in sh, you can spend your wednesday's at zapata's with 2000+ fellow expats, who you can also brush shoulders with at park, vip room, dkd, or bar rouge on weekends, but beijing is considerably more interesting imo. this is due to several reasons:
-beijingers have more disposable income
-beijingers have interests beyond money
-as a nasty, politically oppressed city, beijing has fostered a vibrant art and music scene; some of the punk bands i've seen at yugong yishan blow the stuff i used to listed in college out of the water
-in beijing, it's perfectly acceptable to try out new places
-house parties are easy to pull off and always successful in beijing; in sh, people just sit around and think about park/guandi
give me a ring next time you're in town and i'll show you myself. the same offer holds for sh.
More info on zapata, park, vip room, dkd, or bar rouge? When, how much, etc.?
pegasus8228
Jul 7, 05, 5:17 pm
beijing could worth at least a whole week for sight seeing alone. less in the winter
shanghai is a 2 night city if for tourist spots. however, you can find good things to do every day even if you stay there for 2 weeks. shanghai is for you to experienc the live there.
the other city for 3 night (or more) i would recommend is Hangzhou, which is 2-3 hours away from Shanghai, depending on traffic.
in short, i more or less agree with moondog
BJ 4-6 nights
SH 2 nights
HZ 3-5 nights
pegasus8228
Jul 7, 05, 5:31 pm
I'm planning on going to SH 'round year end for my yearly trip. Just remember to watch out for hookers when you go out to the bars.
yes, the problem with SH (and to a lesser extend BJ) is that meatmarket feel. if you really want to enjoy the 'true' nightlife in china. avoid expat places or go to other cities (eg hangzhou/chengdu or even smaller ones)
moondog
Jul 7, 05, 5:50 pm
More info on zapata, park, vip room, dkd, or bar rouge? When, how much, etc.?
zapata's -- wednesday is their big night (really, really big). when we go on wednesdays, we go after 2a because it's impossible to move earlier. goes strong till sunrise. i actually like going their on fri/sat before moving on. for all its trendiness (which i generally loathe), they make nice drinks and are generous with the booze. margaritas are around y40.
park 97 -- the california club is downstairs and upstairs at park is, well, upstairs. most people go there at around 11 or 12 on fri and sat nights. drinks are y40 - y50; bottles are expensive. usually has easy to avoid cover charge
guandi -- predominantly taiwanese crowd. most non-abc foreigners hate it.
babyface -- you didn't ask, but i thought i'd mention it because it's ok if you get a table and you can get a table for around 8 people if you buy 2 bottles, which are only around y400. i absolutely hate the beijing babyface btw; they have way too much attitude for a second tier club in a developing city.
vip -- it's always ok and is very loud; hot girls; drinks priced similar to park
dkd -- after hours on weekends. y100 cover includes 2 drinks iirc. good djs sometimes
bar rouge -- bar at bund 18. go before 10 if fri or sat (no line; no cover)
barbarossa -- in park near peoples square; also popular now
edited to add:
mural -- i can't believe i forgot to metion this one. y100 includes drinks until 2a on fridays. ratio is bad, but we always have fun there. crowd tends to be a little bit lower income then some of the hipper places
JohnWM
Jul 8, 05, 7:43 pm
Thanks very much, Pegasus8228! I appreciate your suggestions; they are very helpful.
You other guys are a scream. Here I am, asking about the art, culture, and history of Chinese cities, and all you guys care about is getting laid.
You must all be 30 years younger than me! Stay kewl; you all sound hot. Go for it!!!
Bye. John.
pegasus8228
Jul 8, 05, 9:00 pm
john, you are welcome.
since you mentioned culture and history, shanghai does not have a lot of history (only a couple hundred years), but recently they have built a very good museum (modern i think) and a good theater. (i haven't been to the museum though).
there are also a lot of cultural activities (theaters, shows) in beijing, perhaps more than shanghai.
the other cities (hangzhou, xian) etc, are relatively weaker in terms of cultural activities.
TravelManKen
Jul 8, 05, 9:06 pm
My wife and I will be making our first trip to Asia this summer - 4 days in Japan and 4 days in Beijing. We'll be in Beijing Aug 7th-11th and I was also wondering if there was enough to fill up the schedule. I can't believe that I can actually read part of that schedule :)
fallinasleep
Jul 10, 05, 10:36 am
If you don't care for nightlife, I think Beijing is the better place to visit in terms of allocation of days. On the other hand, if you decide that you want to visit Hangzhou or nearby towns then the advantage goes to Shanghai. In both cities, however, you can easily spend 3-5 days staying busy during the day (although Beijing is a better place).
Personally, if you want adventure and have the budget, then I would add a few more days to the itinerary and go somewhere else to get a better feel for the country. China's West(ern frontier) is as big as America's (which director Zhang Yimou has used effectively in his movies), and there are some great world-class/UNESCO places to visit in the two "autonomous" minority regions of Tibet and Xinjiang (think Lhasa and Kashgar, respectively) where you can easily occupy a week or more (but 3 days is also do-able if you time your connections). That's where I would spend my money on a side trip. Flight/train connections are improving, so it no longer takes days to get to these areas. On the other hand, this also means that it isn't so hard for China's frontier to be settled by "outsiders". Go now before these regions lose their uniqueness.
I think Hangzhou and Nanjing are frequently mentioned because they are near Shanghai by road or train, but they are not on my top ten list. If you have the budget to fly around (although domestic airfares are frequently discounted, they have not reached the level that LCCs have conditioned the customer to expect in Malaysia, Europe and parts of the USA), then the options open up dramatically.
shazbot
Jul 10, 05, 1:16 pm
adding to Moondog's list,
pegasus: Alot of hip-hop music, and if you like trendy hot asians in rockstar (hot) outfits, theres plenty here.
Rojam: Trancy place, with lasers & everything. Has a small hip-hop room.
XingTianDi: Alot of bars at this district, and alot of live bands playing. Not too much dancing, just grab a table, and watch the live bands play... with sheet music ;o.
MBox: Near zapatas, but not as expatish.
Theres so many trendy clubs/bars in SH that I could go on & on, its best to just go & check 'em out.
moondog
Jul 10, 05, 2:09 pm
adding to Moondog's list,
pegasus: Alot of hip-hop music, and if you like trendy hot asians in rockstar (hot) outfits, theres plenty here.
only popular on thursdays and increasingly annoying crowd
Rojam: Trancy place, with lasers & everything. Has a small hip-hop room.
only mondays and with a group; otherwise, waste of time
MBox: Near zapatas, but not as expatish.
where is there in mbox near zapata's? (i only know of mao ming rd, but i think i may have seen one on tongren rd last month)
moondog
Jul 10, 05, 3:17 pm
Personally, if you want adventure and have the budget, then I would add a few more days to the itinerary and go somewhere else to get a better feel for the country. China's West(ern frontier) is as big as America's
I agree that there's a lot to see and do out west. The problem is that most people that request advice here have limited vacation time and don't make it to China very often. Therefore, I usually encourage people to get their fill of the big cities on their first trip and then do something more adventerous the next time around.
fallinasleep
Jul 10, 05, 3:51 pm
I agree that there's a lot to see and do out west. The problem is that most people that request advice here have limited vacation time and don't make it to China very often. Therefore, I usually encourage people to get their fill of the big cities on their first trip and then do something more adventerous the next time around.
I also agree that one should visit Beijing and Shanghai before anything else :), but after those two big cities, all others are "tier two," as they say...
My interpretation of the OP's initial request for information was that he had the time and the inclination to get off the beaten track, especially as his interests were in art, history and architecture and not necessarily the latest trendy clubs and bars in Shanghai.
There are so many threads on Shanghai and Beijing on Flyertalk (and the information isn't going to get stale anytime soon), wouldn't it be nice to talk about some other destinations for a change? :)
pegasus8228
Jul 10, 05, 7:01 pm
to me tier 2 would include hangzhou, xian, guilin, kunming
maybe dunhuang, lhasa, suzhou, chengdu area, lijiang, xinjiang area, etc.
hangzhou clearly stands out among tier 2, (a clear top 3 on par with BJ and SH....10 years ago i would have put hangzhou in front of shanghai!) in terms of sightseeing and culture. IMHO Nanjing is not that special, and i would place NJ near the end of the above list.
shazbot
Jul 10, 05, 8:18 pm
only popular on thursdays and increasingly annoying crowd
only mondays and with a group; otherwise, waste of time
where is there in mbox near zapata's? (i only know of mao ming rd, but i think i may have seen one on tongren rd last month)
I've only been to pegasus on thurs's, but it was the only place where I saw some really stylin girls; the kind you see at the vegas night clubs.
Rojam is always fun, although I'm a bit leary of the chinese E scene. I hear its big though.
Mbox is like a 10m walk from zapatas, in the direction away from mural. Its at this big intersection, and on the 5th floor of this building. Kinda hard to see.
shazbot
Jul 10, 05, 8:19 pm
I agree that there's a lot to see and do out west. The problem is that most people that request advice here have limited vacation time and don't make it to China very often. Therefore, I usually encourage people to get their fill of the big cities on their first trip and then do something more adventerous the next time around.
Definately. If its a first time trip to china, or an infrequent one, theres no point in staying in SH for more than a few days. You might as well goto NYC for the shopping/bars.
mntblue
Jul 11, 05, 10:59 am
I just don't see the appeal of Shanghai to a western visitor. Yes it's a great place to make money and have parties. But for a first time vistor to China with limited time, how can Shanghai be preferrable to Hangzhou and Xi'an? It's like coming to New York and only visit the Chinatown.
pegasus8228
Jul 11, 05, 12:24 pm
mntblue, i agree. but you do see the front edge of china's modernization in shanghai, and where the new china is going... that is why i suggested only 2 night for SHA.
lujiazui (pudong -- the new zone) has the most amazing group of new glass pane architecture in the world, from a green field 12 years ago.
imagine the canary wharf (or century) x 50, clustering with no building older than 12 years in between.
moondog
Jul 11, 05, 12:39 pm
lujiazui (pudong -- the new zone) has the most amazing group of new glass pane architecture in the world, from a green field 12 years ago.
imagine the canary wharf (or century) x 50, clustering with no building older than 12 years in between.
i lived in yanlord gardens several years ago and returned there for a bbq last month and was blown away by the pace of development (impressive, even for sh); there must 50,000 apartments in the area now.
omahajim
Jul 11, 05, 2:00 pm
but you do see the front edge of china's modernization in shanghai, and where the new china is going... that is why i suggested only 2 night for SHA.If you want to see some Shanghai before going, rent the Tim Robbins movie Code 46 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0345061/) .